Exalted Planescape (Input Wanted!)

[Leliel]

Basically, this is where I attempt to think of ways to merge Planescape with Exalted.

Few ideas:

1) I'm using this (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?625619-Planescape-without-alignments-(long)) as the planar structure. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos have nothing to do with it (apart from Chaos being a description for phenomenon from the Far Realm, aka the Wyld). By the way, neither Mordons nor Slaadi are races of "outsider", in the Planescape definition-rather, they are both Primordial races meant with overseeing Mechanus and Limbo, respectively. The Mordons make sure that nothing corrupts the greater structure of Mechanus, the Slaadi ensure that only things within the range of possibilities Creation possesses (which, admittedly, is a lot) happens within Limbo, as that is a sign of Far Realm influence. Also, some outsiders are reborn mortal souls, but most simply sit in the Outer Planes for a while-if they get there at all-before being absorbed into Lethe and recycled. The vast majority are normal gods.

2) Sigil's rules are relaxed a bit-the Lady of Pain is a bit more approachable (as in, she employs dabus emissaries between her and her petitioners), and she may be convinced to let someone set up a shrine as part of a business deal or move an elite military squad in return for helping her own enigmatic agenda to promote and maintain Sigil. This is good, because the Lady herself is powerful enough to give the Unconquered Sun pause and nothing, not even the Yozis in the infinitesimally small possibility they free themselves, is able to open a portal there is she decides it be closed. That doesn't mean the walls of the city can't be broken down, which is barely within the power of several Yozis working together. On the other hand, being mazed is regarded as more of a major hassle for certain, mentally-inclined Exalts, but on the third, she knows this and hesitates even less to send those particular Exalts as a warning for relatively minor infractions.

3) As might be guessed, the souls of the Yozis are called something other than "demons". Specifically, "asuras". The spatial location of Malfeas is at the very heart of Carceri, but even imprisonment cannot fully contain Cecelyne's infinite nature-asuras can be summoned everywhere, and there are innumerable schemes to create just one more crack through which to extend their influence. If you've read the D&D 4E Demonicon, think of the various ways the Abyss can form portals-Malfeas and his siblings constantly probe for just another minuscule hole in their prison or scheme to create them, and while these probably won't result in the Great Asuraic Pipe Dream Reclamation, that is small comfort to the worlds overrun with an army of asuras because someone opened an Amrita Channel to Octavian's capital with his help.

Oh, and they're chaff. Decoys, not nearly as much of a threat as many would have you believe.

The Yozis don't understand this-all they know is that the walls of their cell now have a crack in them which they can feel the air of the Great Wheel through and, if they're incredibly lucky, can even peek out of or force a finger through. But at some point, the Unquestionable caught on that those cracks do not actually damage the prison at all, and will be patched either by the natural process of the universe or by their wardens.

So instead, they thread puppet strings through the cracks, messages offering whatever the outside people desire in return for this one simple thing or that simple thing. They seem fair-certainly more than the contracts of baatezu or tana'ri, and genuinely will not screw you over in the long term.

They don't screw people over, of course, because the tasks serve to destabilize the already precarious position of the Great Wheel's politics and bring about greater tensions that, frequently, the asuras are looked to in order to solve. They set the stage to open more cracks in the prison, engendering anomalies in fate that those beyond it can exploit, creating living portals that seek things to send to their Yozi masters that might be useful, secretly spreading the procedure to create more Amrita Channels which the asuras can use to travel relatively freely to and from Malfeas. Through these, the asuras can make more and better offers...

Perhaps even someday, things will get so bad that Sol Invictus must reach for the Titan-Summoning Clarion and ask the parent-emperors of the asuras that the universe has relied on to solve his problems, like their children...and for that, the Demon Princes have been working on something called a Inverted Geas Freedom Mandala...

So, any other ideas?

[vasharanpaladin]

I think this covers it rather nicely. (http://lawfulnice.blogspot.com/2011/12/i-give-you-presents.html) :smallbiggrin:

[Leliel]

No, already saw that.

This is plain Exalted + Planescape, not Planescape + 40K + Mass Effect + Exalted + something I really want to be on.

[Eldan]

I don' tknow much about Exalted, but I do know and like Planescape. I must, however, say that I really don't like the condensed version of Planescape you linked.

I mean, I can see mixing Limbo and the Ethereal, they are similar. But the Astral and Mechanus? What? Seriously, what? Leave out half the outer planes, and some of the most interesting at that? Doesn't fly with me. At all.

Also: the word "Asura" is already taken up in Planescape: it's a term for Archons that have fallen from the lawful alignment, instead of the good alignment, becoming neutral good or chaotic good. I always thought that was an interesting concept, but of course, it can be dropped.

How does Elysium work with this? Specifically, the lowest layers and their idea of "Here, the greatest of monsters are imprisoned to protect the multiverse"? Canonically, Elysium contains primeval monstrosities like the first Hydra. I'd put other mythological creatures like the Behemoth there. Does Exalted have anything like that?

And another thing: multiple religions. Exalted, from what little I have read, basically has one Pantheon, even if they do not all work together. Planescape has an infinite number of gods that are often totally unconnected, except in being gods. How do the Greek gods, the Aesir, the Heptomad, the Babylonians, the Celestial Bureaucracy of China and others fit in here?

Also, Dungeons: the Dragoning seemed to me to be written by someone who just didn't know his Planescape very well. It was basically 40k+Exalted, with some Planescape names superficially glued on in ways that made little sense.

[Leliel]

I don' tknow much about Exalted, but I do know and like Planescape. I must, however, say that I really don't like the condensed version of Planescape you linked.

I mean, I can see mixing Limbo and the Ethereal, they are similar. But the Astral and Mechanus? What? Seriously, what? Leave out half the outer planes, and some of the most interesting at that? Doesn't fly with me. At all.

It makes sense in Exalted, where every little thing is run by least gods, the spirits of things like grains of rice and individual tongues of flame. It literally is the machine that keeps the whole thing propped up, which fits in nicely with the Loom of Fate, which is also a physical thing you can visit.

Also: the word "Asura" is already taken up in Planescape: it's a term for Archons that have fallen from the lawful alignment, instead of the good alignment, becoming neutral good or chaotic good. I always thought that was an interesting concept, but of course, it can be dropped.

Since objective alignment doesn't exist in Exalted, these asuras are redundant-we just have archons with different opinions. Besides, Exalted demons are far closer to mythological asuras then the Planescape version (rivals of the gods, constantly attacking them in a futile reach for victory).

How does Elysium work with this? Specifically, the lowest layers and their idea of "Here, the greatest of monsters are imprisoned to protect the multiverse"? Canonically, Elysium contains primeval monstrosities like the first Hydra. I'd put other mythological creatures like the Behemoth there. Does Exalted have anything like that?

Huh. I did not know that.

But it's easy to fit in-Exalted has a class of beings called "behemoths", immortal creatures created directly by Primordial power. The nicer ones such as the Mover of Mountains or Arad the Hunter were probably lured there in case the victorious gods needed them, where they currently sleep. Mean ones get put in Carceri (which I am leaving in here), right in the neighborhood of their creators.

And another thing: multiple religions. Exalted, from what little I have read, basically has one Pantheon, even if they do not all work together. Planescape has an infinite number of gods that are often totally unconnected, except in being gods. How do the Greek gods, the Aesir, the Heptomad, the Babylonians, the Celestial Bureaucracy of China and others fit in here?

*snerk*

Excuse me while I attempt to process "but Exalted has one pantheon".

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ahem.

Sorry, but even within the official power structure of the Celestial Bureaucracy, there are multiple power groups-ie, pantheons-and unofficially, they can be divided even further into sub-pantheons who are even officially recognized as clubs. And that's not even getting into the Terrestrial Bureaucracy, which is not even a coherent organization so much as it is "every god not a Celestial god"...

Oh, they have places. It's just that Exalted assumes these pantheons interact like Real Life nations and political parties do, since "god", in Exalted, is simply another kind of spirit, specifically being those produced by the natural mechanisms of Creation interacting with the shinma, the physical laws of existence period (if you can conceive of it, it exists within the shinma), which can be empowered by worship (as can everything else, but only gods rely on faith to gain power). And you can only give your faith to so many gods-there's just not enough time in a priest's day or concepts the general public likes (for instance, the only reason Amoth City-Smiter, God of The End of Civilizations, is worshiped is because many cities have not made friends with the barbarian tribes-defined in Exalted as predominantly hunter-gatherer cultures-and they call on him for help in destroying their agriculturally-based enemy).

Also, Dungeons: the Dragoning seemed to me to be written by someone who just didn't know his Planescape very well. It was basically 40k+Exalted, with some Planescape names superficially glued on in ways that made little sense.

Actually, I agree perfectly with this. It's Warhammer 40K + Exalted + Space Opera first, Planescape second. It's why I;m making this project.

[Eldan]

What I meant with "One Pantheon" was that while they may not cooperate, which I acknowledged, they at least have contact. In Planescape, there are so many Pantheons that many may not even know the others exist. "Pantheon" means all gods. A group of gods. It does not imply cooperation (Tiamat and Marduk certainly didn't.).

The Astral and Mechanus, in Planescape, have many marked differences. Mechanus defines many natural laws, such as time, true. The Astral, however, is more like an empty canvas. In the Astral, there is no space, no time and no matter. All there is pure, timeless thought. It can even be dangerous, for that reason: you may be attacked by rogue dreams, or murderous thoughts. In fact, since Planescape classically has no Far Ream (the Far Realm is really a third edition idea), the Astral took a lot of the ideas that are now associated with it. It is full of strange, incomprehensible things that drive people mad if they just think about them. It is an eldritch, incomprehensible place. Mechanus is much more ordered. Then there is another thing: the graveyard of the gods, and Anubis. Dead Gods are a really interesting concept, where do you put them if there is no Astral? Because Mechanus certainly doesn't fit the idea.


Also, if you have no Astral, what exactly links the Material to the Outer Planes? Do you just dump the Material into the Outlands?

Finally, while Objective Alingment may not exist, the Archons as defined in the books are very, very narrow-minded and intolerant towards their own (not so much towards mortals). And even if you do not call it Evil and Chaos, there is more than one way to fall. What would you call an Archon that joins the Court of Stars, then?

[Leliel]

What I meant with "One Pantheon" was that while they may not cooperate, which I acknowledged, they at least have contact. In Planescape, there are so many Pantheons that many may not even know the others exist. "Pantheon" means all gods. A group of gods. It does not imply cooperation (Tiamat and Marduk certainly didn't.).

Again, see the part about being "naturally produced by Creation's mechanisms"?

The Bureaucracy doesn't run them. In fact, they're completely automated.

Which means it's quite possible to have a god the Celestial Bureaucracy isn't aware exists, and a god that isn't aware the Bureaucracy exists in turn. Given the size of the Great Wheel, it's even likely.

Also: The Celestial Bureaucracy...cooperating?

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Really, half the regulations of Yu-Shan are meant to stop the gods from killing each other. It doesn't stop the malaise of corruption (as in, gods acting for their own benefit, not infiltration by forces on the Great Big List of Creatures of Darkness, aka people vulnerable to Holy damage, because the Sun has decided their race is a threat to Creation) that pervades it, either.

The Astral and Mechanus, in Planescape, have many marked differences. Mechanus defines many natural laws, such as time, true. The Astral, however, is more like an empty canvas. In the Astral, there is no space, no time and no matter. All there is pure, timeless thought. It can even be dangerous, for that reason: you may be attacked by rogue dreams, or murderous thoughts. In fact, since Planescape classically has no Far Ream (the Far Realm is really a third edition idea), the Astral took a lot of the ideas that are now associated with it. It is full of strange, incomprehensible things that drive people mad if they just think about them. It is an eldritch, incomprehensible place. Mechanus is much more ordered. Then there is another thing: the graveyard of the gods, and Anubis. Dead Gods are a really interesting concept, where do you put them if there is no Astral? Because Mechanus certainly doesn't fit the idea.

Easy! The Underworld! Might help make it more distinctive and weird. Also, it's quite habitable by the living, so there's your githyanki. Indeed, living among their ancestors to constantly remind them of why they fight and to always seek revenge.

For the Far Realm-well, that's something we're going to have to weld on to keep the thematic and personality of the Raksha, the primary inhabitants of the Wyld. Because first of all, beyond all else, they are other. They look like humans with pointy ears much of the time, but make no mistake-they're a race of psychic vampires, for whom the concept of "consequences of actions" is alien, and the fact that stable Creation has it terrifies them. Also-the Primordials are almost as alien as the Raksha. Who's to say they didn't put bizarre monsters there to oversee the gears?


Also, if you have no Astral, what exactly links the Material to the Outer Planes? Do you just dump the Material into the Outlands?

The Underworld links them. It makes sense for the land of the unquiet dead to be linked to the divine afterlives, with soul collectors browsing the ghosts to find those worthy of becoming petitioners. This rarely happens, more because ghosts are some of the most stubborn and traditionalist creatures in existence then because of a lack of worthiness. A ghost would rather hover around a simulacra of his or her life then actually

Hm. Maybe Mechanus-Astral links the Inner and Outer planes? The Elements providing energy to keep the machines running, which prop up the planes?

Finally, while Objective Alingment may not exist, the Archons as defined in the books are very, very narrow-minded and intolerant towards their own (not so much towards mortals). And even if you do not call it Evil and Chaos, there is more than one way to fall. What would you call an Archon that joins the Court of Stars, then?

A rogue. A rebel. Someone who discovered that the monk life was not for him. A decadent excuse for an archon who has fooled himself into thinking the illusion we call the world is better than wisdom. A truly wise individual who has realized the left-hand path of the physical leads to enlightenment as fast as the right-hand path of the spiritual and has chosen to walk it.

The term depends on who's answering, and I would think that the Upper Planes are still "good", as far as people in Exalted can be, because they're genuinely nicer than the Lower Planes. Whether or not they're more effective...well, that's the question the Lower Planes ask.

[Eldan]

Which Underworld would you dump the gods into? Hades? Gehenna? Carceri? The Abyss? None really fit, in my mind. Especially since their focus on evil (or, if you don't want alignment, Despair, Betrayal, Vengeance and Violence respectively) doesn't fit the more weird, almost serene, outlandish, out-of-this-world feeling of the Astral.

Edit: nevermind, you seem to have your own underworld.

The Outer and Inner Planes are traditionally linked by the Ordial plane, to fulfill the rule of trees, but then, if you kick the other two transitives, there's no reason to keep the one most people haven't even heard about.

I also notice you haven't gone into deep history yet. How do Asmodeus, the Baern, the Wind Dukes, the Queen of Chaos, the wolf-spider, the Progenitors of good and all their kin fit into a more Exalted-inspired background?

[Leliel]

The Outer and Inner Planes are traditionally linked by the Ordial plane, to fulfill the rule of trees, but then, if you kick the other two transitives, there's no reason to keep the one most people haven't even heard about.

Quite. There are other mysteries in the world, probably bigger ones. Such as what the hell the Yugoloths' deal is. They don't seem to have the ideological underpinnings of the other fiend races, so...what are they up to?

Even better, how are the baatezu able to function from day to day with their crippling hypochondria? Put the "Great Orb Of Taking Over The Universe" in the center of most cities, you'd probably thwart them forever, since that would mean they would have to *gulp*...touch the city. I can just imagine an infernal invasion by the opposing army not bathing for three days.

I also notice you haven't gone into deep history yet. How do Asmodeus, the Baern, the Wind Dukes, the Queen of Chaos, the wolf-spider, the Progenitors of good and all their kin fit into a more Exalted-inspired background?

I'm working on it! ...Probably as part of the Primordial War.

Coming next: Slaadi biology!

[Eldan]

Since when do Baatezu have Hypochondria? I've never heard that.

And the 'loths do have a bit of Philosophy. At least sometimes. Have you read the Demented Cycle/Shemeska's Story hour? That should give anyone a few ideas.