[PF]Advice on my Lore Warden

[Panigg]

Hey guys. So we're playing a low magic campaign and I was looking to play something different, but effective.

The plan is for me to make a lore warden that gets all knowledges (except for arcana, maybe at higher levels) and generally be our skillmonkey with acrobatics and disable device. Good thing is our DM gave us 1 free craft and 1 free knowledge that we always get for free.

I'm running with a barbarian and a ranger. I'm supposed to be the "tank".

Right now I'm thinking of taking a whip with all the mastery feats and have a rapier in the other hand for high crits. I basically disable/hinder/trip/grapple everyone and try to hand my crits to the barb that is wielding an axe for the x3 crit multiplier.

I plan on getting greater trip asap, so I can trip with the whip and use the rapier on AoO, without TWF or other penalties.

Anyone has any experience with this kind of build?

STR 12
DEX 15++++
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10

Acrobatics (Dex) 1+2
Appraise (Int)* 1+3+3
Climb (Str)* 1+3+1
Disable Device (Dex) 1+2
Linguistics (int)* 1+3+3
Craft Alchemy (Wis)* 2+3+3+3
Knowledge (Int)*
Dungeoneering 1+3+3
Engineering 1+3+3
Nature 1+3+3


1: Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), Weapon Focus
(Whip), Schoolastic, Skill Focus (Craft)
2: Combat Expertise, Whip Mastery
3: Maneuver Mastery, Butterfly's Sting (12 Critical Focus)
4: Combat Reflexes
5: Weapon Training Light Blades, Improved Whip Mastery
6: Stand Still
7: Know Thy Enemy, Improved Trip, Maneuver Mastery
8: Greater Trip, Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
9: Improved Critical (Rapier), Weapon Training Flails
10: Greater Whip Mastery
11: Hair's Breadth, Pin Down, Maneuver Mastery
12: Improved Unarmed Strike
13: Weapon Training Close, Improved Grapple
14: Swift Lore, Greater Grapple
15: Maneuver Mastery, Exhausting Critical
16: Rapid Grappler, Skill Focus (Disable Device)
17: Weapon Training Crossbows, Stunning Critical
18: Critical Mastery
19: Know Weakness, ?
20: Weapon Mastery (Rapier), ?

Medium Armor Proficiency
Master Alchemist

[StreamOfTheSky]

The best way to tank at low levels in PF is to do as much damage as possible, maybe take Step Up feat, and concentrate on inflicting the "dead" condition on foes. Even if you fail to inflict death, you're sure to draw enemy ire for being so dangerous, and thus you have tanked for the party effectively.

At level 11-12 and up, you get honest to goodness actual tanking options, finally. Grab a reach weapon, take Combat Reflexes, Pin Down, and Dazing Assault, and actually stop foes from penetrating your front line.

You can try to use reach weapon + combat reflexes + improved/greater trip, but a lot of foes can't be tripped and those that can will often have obscene CMD. If you wish to go this route, you'll want as much strength and attack bonuses as possible.

[grarrrg]

Hey guys. So we're playing a low magic campaign and I was looking to play something different, but effective.

The plan is for me to make a lore warden that gets all knowledges (except for arcana, maybe at higher levels) and generally be our skillmonkey with acrobatics and disable device.

The Student of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war) PrC looks like a good fit with what you are planning.
It _loves_ Knowledge checks, can use INT instead of DEX for AC (could make your build STR based, drop DEX to 10, and exchange Weapon Finesse for Improved Initiative).
It gains a 'floating' bonus that can be applied to either Attack/Damage, AC/Saving Throws, or Combat Maneuvers (note, this Knowledge check is done as a Move action, whereas the similar Lore Warden ability is a Standard, both do eventually become Swift though).
It has some nice abilities throughout, it gains 3 Bonus Combat Feats so you won't miss as much from Fighter loss.
The Capstone is awesome. If you make a good Knowledge check you "ignore the target’s natural damage reduction and immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks."

For the rest of my advice, I shall ignore the above suggestion (partially in case you decide not to PrC, and partially because I wrote this section last :smalltongue:).

I'm running with a barbarian and a ranger. I'm supposed to be the "tank".

STR 12
DEX 15++++
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10


Well, judging by all the 10's you are using Point Buy.
And unless you are using an off number, it looks like you have 15points, and you spent 10points on INT, 3points on DEX and then applied your Human bonus to DEX...
Not ideal. Better off spending 7points on DEX, 5points on INT, this frees up 1 point to go elsewhere.
You can also safely drop your CHA to 8 (or maybe even 7) to free up some more points.

Which leads me to my next point.
You are supposed to be the party Tank with a CON of 10?
Skill Monkey or not, I advise you to drop your INT to 14, do most of what I recommended above, and put the remainder into CON.



1: Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), Weapon Focus
(Whip), Schoolastic, Skill Focus (Craft)
2: Combat Expertise, Whip Mastery
3: Maneuver Mastery, Butterfly's Sting (12 Critical Focus)
4: Combat Reflexes
5: Weapon Training Light Blades, Improved Whip Mastery
6: Stand Still
7: Know Thy Enemy, Improved Trip, Maneuver Mastery
8: Greater Trip, Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
9: Improved Critical (Rapier), Weapon Training Flails
10: Greater Whip Mastery
11: Hair's Breadth, Pin Down, Maneuver Mastery
12: Improved Unarmed Strike
13: Weapon Training Close, Improved Grapple
14: Swift Lore, Greater Grapple
15: Maneuver Mastery, Exhausting Critical
16: Rapid Grappler, Skill Focus (Disable Device)
17: Weapon Training Crossbows, Stunning Critical
18: Critical Mastery
19: Know Weakness, ?
20: Weapon Mastery (Rapier), ?

Your feats are all over the place.

Since you plan on taking the whole Whip Mastery line, you should make Whips your 1st Fighter bonus, as you'll be using it most often.

You are better just paying to make your Rapier Keen instead of taking the Improved Critical feat for it.

Skip Improved Unarmed Strike, you are already spending feats/abilities towards 2 different weapon types, there is no need to spend them on a 3rd as well.
Related, drop Grappling from your build, it is the least useful Maneuver (it can be good, but you REALLY have to focus your build around it).

ALTERNATIVELY:
Keep Improved Unarmed strike and take the Kirin Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kirin-style-combat-style) feat line.
Swift action Knowledge check to get a +2 untyped to Saving throws, and a +2 Dodge to AC.
Kirin Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kirin-strike-combat): +2 Insight on Knowledge Checks, and after you hit a creature you can spend your Swift to deal INTx2 in damage to them.
Kirin Path (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kirin-path-combat): Can always take 10 on Creature related Knowledge checks, and you can spend an AoO use to move after a creature moves.

[Panigg]

I pretty much went through everything you've said before.

We use the 3.5 point buy with 24 points, but we can't have a dumpstat. We also use wounds and vigor, so con isn't that important.

Also I got 14 points int + 2 human bonus, then 15 on dex.

About the kirin style... I was considering going that route, but my DM told me that I can't take arcana, since it's a low magic world and I would have to discover the knowledge on my own, starting at later levels... so I can't plan around kirin style.

The problem with the keen rapier is that I don't know how he's handling weapon enchants. He told us there would be very little, so I planned in the improved crit feat. Will obviously replace it, if I find a keen rapier.

The thing I love about grappling with a whip is:

1. I can do it at range.
2. I can do it to any opponent, not just one size larger than myself.
3. I can grab, move them and tie them up in one round without penalties with imp, greater and rapid grapple.
4. Any +attack on whip is a bonus on the grapple with a whip, so the bonus there is pretty good already. (considering I get 3 from weapon training, 8 from lore warden, 5 from weapon finesse and 1 from weapon focus + 1 from strength and masterwork.)

I'm not too sure about taking flails or light weapons first.. I guess I'll decide that on the fly, but since I'll mostly be doing damage with the rapier I wanted the extra damage there.

So yeah, without knowing about the restrictions you pretty much gave the best advice imaginable. Thanks for that. :)

[Hylas]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234312

I looked at making a Dirty Trick focused Fighter and got pointed to the Lore Warden and that thread. Since you're doing the whip thing you can replace any dirty trick type stuff with grapple. Multiclassing with maneuver master monk will give you flurry and unarmed strike along with a few free feats.

[Panigg]

Thought of that and master of many styles (kirin style + crane style) already, but my DM isn't a big fan of multiclassing...

Some nice ideas in there tho, so thanks for pointing that one out. :)