Divine insight spell + disguise. Please help

[shaga]

Ok so a player in my campaign is a necropolitan cleric. He wants to keep his nature as an undead secret, so he picked trickery domain and some ranks on disguise. He also got a disguise had and picked the Divine insight spell. Here comes the questionable part. He claims that by casting the divine insight and then disguising himself as a living human I should roll his disguise check with the bonus of the divine insight and keep it until he decides to change the disguise, even if that is for days. His reasoning that the disguise skill says "one Disguise check per use of the skill", so unless he does something to change that disguise he has that one check for ever.

My thoughts are that he keeps that divine insight bonus on his check until the duration of the spell ends (1 hour per lvl), counting from the moment he makes the disguise (morning).

Another player argues that disguise works like spot vs hide and he has to make a new use of the disguise skill for different encounters. For example if he walks past the gates and the guard suspects him, he rolls spot vs disguise, later if he draws attention from a paladin, that paladin will roll spot vs a new disguise check. That player explains the "one Disguise check per use of the skill" as meaning one check versus everyone in the encounter

So who`s right here?
A - One check, with one spell until he chooses to change his disguise?
B - One check, with one spell until the spell duration ends, at which time he looses the bonus from the spell but his roll remains.
C - One check for every different encounter, with the spell bonus counting only for the first encounter??
D - Something completely different that we completely missed.

[Greyfeld85]

The player of the cleric is correct.

The duration of the spell is simply how long you can hold the buff before it disappears, and has nothing to do with the result of any skill check made with it.

Also, you said it yourself, that the disguise skill states you only take 1 check per use of the skill. His disguise holds at that skill check until he makes another disguise check, however long into the future that happens to be.

That all said, there's really no reason to keep him from doing this, if his being undead is just going to make his character's life difficult. At some point, you're going to have to have somebody see through his disguise, for no other reason than to show him that he's not invincible/infallible. But until that time comes, let him look like a human. *Shrugs*

[That_guy_there]

Similar things have come up in my group. Our DM, grudgingly, decided that it is basically A.


Divine Insight says
"Once during the spell's duration, you can choose to use its effect.
This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to 5 + your caster level (maximum bonus of +15) on any single skill check.
Activating the effect requires an immediate action.
You must choose to use divine insight before you make the check you want to modify.
Once used, the spell ends."

This would mean that you're player's Disguise check remains modified (even for days) by the spell since the check was made with the "This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to 5 + your caster level (maximum bonus of +15) on any single skill check. Activating the effect requires an immediate action" clause of the spell.

Edit: Beaten to this while checking facts :smalltongue:

[shaga]

Well his disguise check with the divine insight goes to 38 (8 ranks +5 charisma +10 disguise hat +15 divine insight). If he rolls average he has a total of 48 check on lvl 9 campaign. (min 39, max 58). All that with spending only one spell that he can have back the next day. Even a 20 lvl rogue would have a pretty hard time seeing through his disguise (23 ranks, +4 wisdom=27, max roll 47, min roll 28) and that's assuming the rogue has 18 wisdom. I could use detect undead, but how plausibly is another cleric would use a 1st lvl spell to detect undeads just the right moment to catch the player. Not to mention he has to keep the player in the spells area for three (3) rounds to really see him as undead.

A relative question for this particular campaign. The group has another undead character that isn't hiding his nature. If an enemy cleric use turn undead but the cleric undead (The disguised one) is not affected because I didn't roll high enough to include his HDs, does the enemy cleric see any reaction that would let him suspect the other udead cleric? and maybe then cast detect undead?

Edit: You would also notice that the player isn't even using max ranks for disguise. If he wanted he could have +3 higher modifier.

[Ranting Fool]

His disguise is perfect.... until it rains.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well his disguise check with the divine insight goes to 38 (8 ranks +5 charisma +10 disguise hat +15 divine insight). If he rolls average he has a total of 48 check on lvl 9 campaign. (min 39, max 58). All that with spending only one spell that he can have back the next day. Even a 20 lvl rogue would have a pretty hard time seeing through his disguise (23 ranks, +4 wisdom=27, max roll 47, min roll 28) and that's assuming the rogue has 18 wisdom. I could use detect undead, but how plausibly is another cleric would use a 1st lvl spell to detect undeads just the right moment to catch the player. Not to mention he has to keep the player in the spells area for three (3) rounds to really see him as undead.

A relative question for this particular campaign. The group has another undead character that isn't hiding his nature. If an enemy cleric use turn undead but the cleric undead (The disguised one) is not affected because I didn't roll high enough to include his HDs, does the enemy cleric see any reaction that would let him suspect the other udead cleric? and maybe then cast detect undead?

Edit: You would also notice that the player isn't even using max ranks for disguise. If he wanted he could have +3 higher modifier.

Remember that if an enemy has true seeing it'll cut right through that hat of disguise and anyone that touches him gets a will save to see through it as well. He also should have penalties assessed to his check based on the fact he's disguising his race, and possibly age.

[shaga]

T
Also, you said it yourself, that the disguise skill states you only take 1 check per use of the skill. His disguise holds at that skill check until he makes another disguise check, however long into the future that happens to be.

So nothing ruins your disguise check? You run, travel 8 hours per day, cast spell, attack with weapons, get attacked with weapons, get hit by spells, climb, swim and nothing from all those things affect your disguise? In order to avoid calculating how all this (and much more) can affect your disguise you need perhaps to use a new disguise skill use for different encounters??

I am not sure but even if that doesn't stand, the +15 bonus from this spell seem broken if it lasts for ever. I opted for the "it lasts as long as the spell lasts" because even though you roll only once for the disguise check (according to raw) this check goes against multiple spot checks on various times.

[Blind Orc]

His disguise is perfect.... until it rains.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html

[Ranting Fool]

Remember that if an enemy has true seeing it'll cut right through that hat of disguise and anyone that touches him gets a will save to see through it as well. He also should have penalties assessed to his check based on the fact he's disguising his race, and possibly age.

Also if anyone does detect magic on him there will be an illusion aura around him (which tends to make NPC's check things a bit better)

You say that but if anyone does detect magic on most PC's they'll have a strobe lighting effect :smallbiggrin:

[Greyfeld85]

Well his disguise check with the divine insight goes to 38 (8 ranks +5 charisma +10 disguise hat +15 divine insight). If he rolls average he has a total of 48 check on lvl 9 campaign. (min 39, max 58). All that with spending only one spell that he can have back the next day. Even a 20 lvl rogue would have a pretty hard time seeing through his disguise (23 ranks, +4 wisdom=27, max roll 47, min roll 28) and that's assuming the rogue has 18 wisdom. I could use detect undead, but how plausibly is another cleric would use a 1st lvl spell to detect undeads just the right moment to catch the player. Not to mention he has to keep the player in the spells area for three (3) rounds to really see him as undead.

*Shrugs* Use modifiers. The PC is disguised, but what if he has to bluff against the local guards? What if he crosses consecrated ground and he visibly flinches in front of the head priest? What if somebody uses a Detect Undead spell in his vicinity and he lights up their radar? What if he gets caught in a Zone of Truth spell, and lets something slip? There are always ways to give NPCs huge conditional modifiers on skill checks.

That aside, you can just have a cleric use the same spell before making a spot check. Turnabout being fair play, and all that.

And if it comes down to it, just roll some dice behind a book, then fudge it and say they saw through his disguise. Sometimes it's worth just fudging things a little bit to add a little tension to a scene, as necessary.

[shaga]

Remember that if an enemy has true seeing it'll cut right through that hat of disguise and anyone that touches him gets a will save to see through it as well. He also should have penalties assessed to his check based on the fact he's disguising his race, and possibly age.

A necropolitan keeps the features of his race while taking the traits of an undead, as per the augmented humanoid rules. So he doesn't change his race.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Also if anyone does detect magic on him there will be an illusion aura around him (which tends to make NPC's check things a bit better)

You say that but if anyone does detect magic on most PC's they'll have a strobe lighting effect :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, the lights on your christmas tree are alot more problematic with hide than disguise. That's why I said trueseeing, not detect magic. Note also that he'll ping as a moderate or even strong aura on detect evil, regardless of his actuall alignment.

[shaga]

*Shrugs* Use modifiers. The PC is disguised, but what if he has to bluff against the local guards? What if he crosses consecrated ground and he visibly flinches in front of the head priest? What if somebody uses a Detect Undead spell in his vicinity and he lights up their radar? What if he gets caught in a Zone of Truth spell, and lets something slip? There are always ways to give NPCs huge conditional modifiers on skill checks.

That aside, you can just have a cleric use the same spell before making a spot check. Turnabout being fair play, and all that.

And if it comes down to it, just roll some dice behind a book, then fudge it and say they saw through his disguise. Sometimes it's worth just fudging things a little bit to add a little tension to a scene, as necessary.

Why would he need to bluff? He is just a regular human going through the gate.
Why would he cross consecrate ground? and as for the detect undead, unless the priest is suspicious of undead activity, why would he randomly cast detect undead on the PC and why will the PC remain in that spells area for three (3) rounds for the cleric to find him?

I don't wont to metagame just because I know he is undead or use my DM power to see him even though he made such an effort to hide. I wand to be fair. Let him hide as best as he can within the rules and see what happens. If it turns out that he can use the divine insight in that way then I will let him use it, its just that it sounds to me like we are not playing it right when a 9th lvl character can end up with a check that even a 20th lvl character would have a hard time beating

[Greyfeld85]

A necropolitan keeps the features of his race while taking the traits of an undead, as per the augmented humanoid rules. So he doesn't change his race.

The description says, "The creature's type changes to undead, and it gains the augmented subtype." Doesn't disguising yourself as a different "type" count as disguising yourself as a different race?

[Greyfeld85]

Why would he need to bluff? He is just a regular human going through the gate.

Guards might be stopping and asking questions of everybody who goes through the gate. Local trouble and all that. Or maybe some vigilantes stop him in the street because he looks like somebody with a bounty on their head. Or somebody that he pissed off comes looking for him. There are reasons, if you're willing to get creative.


Why would he cross consecrate ground?

Entering, or even passing by, a church? Maybe somebody is having a sermon in the street, and they've consecrated the temporary altar they're preaching from?


and as for the detect undead, unless the priest is suspicious of undead activity, why would he randomly cast detect undead on the PC and why will the PC remain in that spells area for three (3) rounds for the cleric to find him?

Maybe there's been a local problem with the undead; newly dead rising out of their graves at night. Maybe a necromancer has been causing problems in the area. Maybe the priest is just paranoid.


I don't wont to metagame just because I know he is undead or use my DM power to see him even though he made such an effort to hide. I wand to be fair. Let him hide as best as he can within the rules and see what happens. If it turns out that he can use the divine insight in that way then I will let him use it, its just that it sounds to me like we are not playing it right when a 9th lvl character can end up with a check that even a 20th lvl character would have a hard time beating

Being fair is all well and good, but you're the DM. Your job is to provide a fun and interesting game/world to your players. If you don't challenge your characters' preparations, they're going to feel as if they were wasted resources, which is expressly not-fun.

I'm not telling you to string him up by his toenails and beat him over the head with it. But the threat of having his disguise seen through is far more interesting than something fire-and-forget that you never see any reaction from. And just screwing him out of his bonuses only tells him that you're going to smack him down any time he tries to do something that you're not prepared to deal with, which also is distinctly not-fun.

[shaga]

The description says, "The creature's type changes to undead, and it gains the augmented subtype." Doesn't disguising yourself as a different "type" count as disguising yourself as a different race?

Yes that was my first thought but if you check the augmented subtype it says that "a creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type." Meaning he looks like a human, albeit the pale skin and bony features. Right?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes that was my first thought but if you check the augmented subtype it says that "a creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type." Meaning he looks like a human, albeit the pale skin and bony features. Right?

No. That passage is using the words "features" and "traits" as game terms, not descriptive terms. The traits of a type are the size of its HD and the associated skill points, while the features are things you get from being that type, such as darkvision and weapon/armor proficiency.

Race, as a game term, means a particular variety of creature. Even just type (subtype) isn't a race as there are several each of Humanoid (Human) and Humanoid (shapechanger) races. Being a necropolitan is definitely being of a different race than being human.

[Greyfeld85]

No. That passage is using the words "features" and "traits" as game terms, not descriptive terms. The traits of a type are the size of its HD and the associated skill points, while the features are things you get from being that type, such as darkvision and weapon/armor proficiency.

Race, as a game term, means a particular variety of creature. Even just type (subtype) isn't a race as there are several each of Humanoid (Human) and Humanoid (shapechanger) races. Being a necropolitan is definitely being of a different race than being human.

Yeah, I figured it was something like that, I just couldn't put it into the right words.

And since there's no modifier marked for disguising yourself as a different creature type, I'd say you'd have to make up your own. With race being a -2, I'd probably put it at a -5.

[That_guy_there]

Why would he need to bluff? He is just a regular human going through the gate.

He has to act in character as well as look the part. Disguises take care of looking human. Of course humans do things undead don't. they breathe, blink, sweat, ect... all of these things require a bluff check.
These are things that no one notices until you see someone not doing them.




Why would he cross consecrate ground? and as for the detect undead, unless the priest is suspicious of undead activity, why would he randomly cast detect undead on the PC and why will the PC remain in that spells area for three (3) rounds for the cleric to find him?


I believe you said there is another PC that isn't hiding his undeadness... that alone is usually enough for a cleric to worry about what else these "Questionable Adventurers" might be trying to bring into town.
And the Cleric does not need to stand infront of the PCs screaming "DETECT UNDEAD!", if he's wise he might do it on the DL.



So nothing ruins your disguise check? You run, travel 8 hours per day, cast spell, attack with weapons, get attacked with weapons, get hit by spells, climb, swim and nothing from all those things affect your disguise? In order to avoid calculating how all this (and much more) can affect your disguise you need perhaps to use a new disguise skill use for different encounters??


These could all be added as modifiers to observers Spot checks. It makes sense that as you do stuff the disuise slips or begins to look shoddy. It makes others easier to notice that the guy isn't looking right.

Edit: Also there is the whole issue of when magic sees through magic disguises. He'd lose the bonuses from the hat, the spell and any other spells he might be benefitting from



I am not sure but even if that doesn't stand, the +15 bonus from this spell seem broken if it lasts for ever. I opted for the "it lasts as long as the spell lasts" because even though you roll only once for the disguise check (according to raw) this check goes against multiple spot checks on various times.

As written the Spell only lasts until you use it for a skill check.
http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-adventurer--54/divine-insight--371/
so by your ruling it wouldn't last 1hour/ level but be instantanious....