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View Full Version : legitamize WBL(3.5 D&D, system modification)PEACH



bobthe6th
2012-07-29, 10:27 PM
ok, wealth pisses me off. it is at once a game mechanic and a story reward... and often the story wins out. additionaly, to work as a game mechanic you need to slaughter versilamatude with magic marts and quick stops at town to sell things... **** that.

so instead, a real fix. when you level, you gain your wbl and spend it as you see fit. this is represented by little bits of loot and stuff you finally unlock the secrets to and things... fluff it as you wish. expendable items now cost as if they were per day use items. you can reselect your spent WBL every day at dawn. magic item creation feats no longer exist, and classes that grant bonuses to such also are removed or given replacements for the lost features.

artifacts exist outside of this system. they are plot devices for the DM to toss in as he wills.

now, you can gain wealth outside of this, it is just considered mundane wealth. you can buy things with it as normal, but it should be part of the story. so yes you could buy a castle or a mercenary, bribe a guard, get a room at the in, or buy a spiffy new doublet with mundane wealth. you just can't buy a +1 long sword with it, or a scroll of gate. So, no loot tables. you kill the dragon you get stupid amounts of mundane wealth, and this has it's own issues as you now have tons of money floating about in big sacks. you kill the ghouls infesting a local grave yard they will only spill experience with their unlife's blood.

so, actual wealth is the DM's little story tool, to use as he wishes. abstract wealth is just that, abstract, a game mechanic.

thoughts?

bobthe6th
2012-07-30, 02:32 PM
again, thoughts? perhaps expendables should also be outside the purview of WBL, existing as a story reward thingamy.

Xefas
2012-07-30, 02:58 PM
Back in my day, our party was lucky to have two +1 weapons to rub together between the four of us. Most of each monster's wealth was invested in architecture and furniture. So we had to pry that stuff out of the freaking ground and lug in uphill back to town. And we liked it!

And if the DM decided that an Apparatus of the Crab was a perfectly suitable treasure for the adventure you just played through, that claimed the lives of two PCs and thirty five henchmen, then by the gods you were going to make it useful. Because there was no "challenge rating", and the random encounter rolled on your way from the tent to the latrine might very well be a Balor of the inexplicably placed variety.

Do you know what "lamp oil" and "hempen rope" is, son? It's all the equipment you'll ever need.

(But, seriously, doing this is fine. Should everyone do it? No. Should you do it if it improves your gaming experience? Sure. Will it cause any problems? Not if your group is down with the idea. Sounds fine.)

bobthe6th
2012-07-30, 03:13 PM
...but then they started claiming you needed +x items to be a real adventurer... and the DM had to do freaking accounting to get loot for adventures. now you just give or take mundane wealth, letting the party rip the gem eyes out of Loth's statue without having to sell it to a wizard for a shiny hat...

but yeah, magic items as rare loot is still fun at times. and at some point it would be fun to have a apparatus...

Nero24200
2012-07-30, 05:43 PM
Well the sad truth is that the 3.5 numbers are made under the assumption that characters have X stuff at X level. This becomes far more prevalent at higher levels. Making up for the numbers could ease it slightly, though something else may be needed to compensate for the lack of utility provided by the items.

I'd recommend this (http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/innate_magic.htm) as a start.

bobthe6th
2012-07-30, 05:52 PM
that system kinda loses some of the minor things you need specific magic items for, but I do like it.

I just feel wealth should never have been to sell for magic items. that is funky, you are an adventurer. you go get money to spend in splurges getting drunk and building a manor. additionaly, you can fight the goblin hoard and be as powerful as ever without striping each one to sell their belongings...

flare'90
2012-07-31, 04:16 AM
I don't know if this system is a solution. For me, the Christmas Tree Effect can be a good thing, if it's managed i a good way. I think that the best magic items are those that grant you some new option, be it flight, teleportation, summoning, wall-walking or others. I find boring the +X items, that only makes you better.

I would propose a system in which WBL is reduced, and the only buyable items are the one that give you options. The +X items would be integrated in character progression.

Deviston
2012-07-31, 04:41 AM
Well Bob, can I call you Bob? I have recently found that I have been doing D&D wrong for ten years. Long story short, my DM and I have been playing with about 200K at 20th level. We thought this was normal. Turns out not so much.

The evolution of our games are normally slow due to every challenge being a CHALLENGE. We managed not to screw much else up and fights were NEVER easy. We thought this was how D&D was supposed to be. So, just because the rules say you need Xgold, doesn't make it true. You can get along with less or more! And who cares about WBL, it's just a guideline.
Since finding out we have been doing it wrong, we went to normal gold amounts. Not so much fun tbh. So, after several games of boredom, because we have all this crazy gear and whatnot, we go back to low gold.

As for how your party gets gold? I have an understanding with my DM, I don't loot corpses for sellables, and he doesn't have me murdered instantly. Yes I will rifle through a body or a treasure chest and what do I find? A useful this! Which I am glad to have! Or a useful that! Which I will toss over to my buddy! Oh but this not so useful thing that I don't get a "feeling is important in some way", I toss that back in the chest/body/satchel/whatnot.

Only when an item no longer becomes useful do we go a-selling. By that time the item is so near worthless it's like "meh, i'll take 5gp for it". The DM rewards us by granting increased gold from "quests" or maybe as a "quest" reward, we find exactly the thing we wanted.

But none of this "dude we gotta go back, these 5 suits of bugbear armor are weighing me down".

bobthe6th
2012-07-31, 08:49 AM
flare'90: you can buy the more complex items...

Deviston: I could see that, and I won't say it is a bad way to play. Fun can be had playing at Dante Must Die difficulty. But a lot of groups have games with magic marts and body looting, as is necessitated by RAW. You can get by without it, but it is difficult as you found out. I just offer a way to move the game mechanic back out of sight out and under the hood.

Serafina
2012-07-31, 01:56 PM
Didn't i just propose this like a week ago? Why yes, i did (too lazy to look for it now).


WBL is really an integral part of a characters abilities. The 3.5-system assumes it. You can of course discard it, but then you need to reword every encounter not against NPCs
So because it's a part of a characters abilities - handle it like one. The character just get boni as they level up - and that these boni are tied to equipment don't matter except in cases where they're unprepared. That can also fix the christmas-tree-look by just assuming that the items look ordinary, or all fit the same style.

- characters always have their WBL worth of items. WBL can not be stolen or gained other than by advancing a level.
- WBL instantly translates into items. No need to shop around, loot it from enemies or craft it.
- Items can still be stolen or expended. If that happens you can refill them as the GM determines, such as when you stop in a large city (generally at the end of an adventure).
- you can completely reshuffle your items when you advance a level or refill them (within reason though). So no "i wont buy that +4 sword because i want to save the cash for the +5 sword" - if you have the WBL available, grab it.
- only a certain percentage of WBL can be spent on expendables, because they now refill relibably, which makes them stronger
- if you have crafting feats you simply count items of that type with only 50% against your WBL (and potentially apply that to your party as well). If you have a crafting feat for expendables you can also spend a higher percentage and maybe slowly regenerate them on your own.
- if you actually look a dragons hoard or get a fat reward for liberating a city, you can spend that cash on roleplaying-stuff, such as owning a fancy bonusless wardrobe, a castle or just eating like a king. If you get any item that grants actual boni as a reward, you can keep it but you must count it against your WBL.
- artifacts are either assigned a value our counted as plot-devices.


That removes grievances about not getting the item your character build really needs, that other player getting the item you wanted, casters being the only one with custom-made items, characters always being greedy because they need it to survive and characters looking silly because they have a strange mix of magic items.
I really don't see anything a lot of campaigns that wouldn't profit from this, and it is easy to implement (in fact it makes bookkeeping easier).

bobthe6th
2012-07-31, 02:08 PM
huh, I missed it... but I had to write it out, as the idea had been buzzing around in my head for ages...

-good
-ok
-hmm... this is about right, but I would like it to be more specific. I kinda like making them all per day items refiling at dawn...
-intresting... I made this more frequent, but this is about right.
-eh, I would rather not limit players.
-this can break wbl really quickly... a reason I did away with them.
-yes
-yes

Tyndmyr
2012-07-31, 02:12 PM
ok, wealth pisses me off. it is at once a game mechanic and a story reward... and often the story wins out.

I don't see any problem with this. Why should the story be separate from the rewards?

Serafina
2012-07-31, 02:17 PM
"Instantly translates into items" is supposed to mean "well, you don't have to wait or search for three months until you get your new sword. you gain it between adventures, just like you level up between them."

And yes, you can do away with item creation feats just fine. It's not like any class relies on them or anything.

Refilling is really best done at the end of each adventure, or during major breaks. So after you're safely out of the dungeon and back in the city. Or during the week you spend waiting for something to happen after you finished the first part of the investigation. Or after you travelled half-way on your epic journey and get to rest for a few days somehere.
The GM can then justify it by having a market for magic items (city), the players having time to hand their equipment over for enchantment to the court wizard or the queen of the elven forest gifting them with items for their journey.


As for only allowing a certain percentage of WBL for expendables (i'd say 10%):
Well, if you don't you'll see players spending enough of their WBL on powerful expendable that they last a whole adventure. So i'd rather limit it. But thats of course up to the individual GM.

Serafina
2012-07-31, 02:24 PM
I don't see any problem with this. Why should the story be separate from the rewards?Nobody said it should?
But do the rewards have to be game mechanics, instead of roleplaying ones?

What's more fun? The Fighter getting a new +2 sword, or getting revenge on the wizard that killed his brother? The mage getting a ring of wizardry, or her finding a book with information for the ritual she needs to shield her hidden village from hostiles? The Cleric getting new +3 fullplate, or donating the gold looted from the slain dragon to his church so that it can lauch a crusade against the undead? The Rogue getting boots of elvenkind or her getting loads of cash she can spend to live like a pirate queen?

Of course every player still wants those items - but that's because their characters need them to keep up while they level and players like stronger characters. So why not just give it to them like XP and when they level up? Why have hunting or buying the right items for your characters be a integral part of the game (unless you want to), when there is so much more you can do with it?

bobthe6th
2012-07-31, 02:37 PM
as above. you should not be penalized for not being a murder hobo that steals anything not nailed down to sell to the magic mart, as is in the current system. A paliden should be able to be acetic while still being effective. monsters should have reasonable hoards, not an exact percentage of WBL.

The DM should be free to give the dragon a HOARD, enough for a house sized creature to sleep on in comfort without worrying that the PCs will spend it to buy unlimited power.

Kasbark
2012-07-31, 02:43 PM
I think the biggest problem with this is that players will have too much loot.

WBL includes consumables that the players use, and gear they might not be able to use (and therefore sells at half price)
If you do change this i would recommend you giving players a bit less than WBL as a 'you have free choice tax'. Perhaps also limit how much they can use on a single item.

Serafina
2012-07-31, 02:43 PM
Good point.

If you do it like that the players won't think "what, we fought that powerful monster and it only has half treasure? Lame!".

Or you can give them a a million-GP dragon hoard without making them too powerful for their level.

Or you can play someone with a vow of poverty (fluff-wise, not the feat) and still have him be competetive - he may wear rags, but those provide the same benefits as the gleaming clothes of the wizard.


Bottom line:
WBL is secondary experience. You gain it as you leve and its a measure of your power.
RAW however it can also be stolen, is only acquired from certain monsters and its availability is unreliable - you may not get the item you want.
Actually treating it like secondary experience (thus an inherent part of the character) makes it much easier to handle.

bobthe6th
2012-07-31, 02:51 PM
I think the biggest problem with this is that players will have too much loot.

WBL includes consumables that the players use, and gear they might not be able to use (and therefore sells at half price)
If you do change this i would recommend you giving players a bit less than WBL as a 'you have free choice tax'. Perhaps also limit how much they can use on a single item.

I can't say, as I lack any play-testing with this system. probably something the GM should adjust as game progresses, as he chose.

Serafina
2012-07-31, 02:59 PM
I think the biggest problem with this is that players will have too much loot.

WBL includes consumables that the players use, and gear they might not be able to use (and therefore sells at half price)
If you do change this i would recommend you giving players a bit less than WBL as a 'you have free choice tax'. Perhaps also limit how much they can use on a single item.Eh, if it affects all players equally its not much of a balance problem. Otherwise it's easy to fix by, say, reducing WBL by 10% or such.

SilverSavio
2012-07-31, 03:03 PM
And yes, you can do away with item creation feats just fine. It's not like any class relies on them or anything.



Small counter-example here, the Artificer does rely on item creation feats to help promote his class features.

Deepbluediver
2012-07-31, 03:04 PM
I've always seen WBL as a guideline for what is appropriate for your character, assuming you are fighting creatures with equal level CR.

The way my DMs ran games, he or she would provide loot in the form of weapons, armor, wands, scrolls, and magic items that either suited the needs of a specific character or where just generally helpful. Loose money was usually a few hundred gold, just enough to cover potions, Inns, travel, and "entertainment".

Also, there was never any kind of magic mart; if we wanted a particular item we would talk to the DM, and we would either craft it, or go on a quest specifically to obtain it, or find some one else who had one and was willing to trade. Even if we had an extra god-killing greatsword lying around, unused gear couldn't be sold for more than a few thousand gold because no one but an adventurer could make really good use of it, and no NPC was dumb enough to trade an entire kingdom for a suit of armor....(ok, there we no NPC that was both dumb and RICH enough).

The unspoken rule was the DM would provide us with enough magic items to make us feel strong, and we wouldn't perform any shenanigans that would make Adam Smith and Thomas Malthus roll over in their graves. We wouldn't pry the adamantine door off it's hinges and the DM wouldn't have us beaten and robbed on the way back to town.


It takes a little bit more effort than just rolling on a random table, but it has the benefit of giving the DM more control and cutting out a lot of useless shopping trips, and if done well a lot more interesting items. In addition, (and I mentioned this in another thread recently) 2 of the 3 DMs I gamed with regularly cut or vastly restricted bags of holding and similar items from the game (specifically to avoid shenanigans) so encumberance was something we had to watch out for.

Serafina
2012-07-31, 03:06 PM
Small counter-example here, the Artificer does rely on item creation feats to help promote his class features.Okay, ONE class. So if your campaign has an artificer, leave them in. If it doesn't, your pick (i would though).

bobthe6th
2012-07-31, 04:00 PM
I've always seen WBL as a guideline for what is appropriate for your character, assuming you are fighting creatures with equal level CR.

The way my DMs ran games, he or she would provide loot in the form of weapons, armor, wands, scrolls, and magic items that either suited the needs of a specific character or where just generally helpful. Loose money was usually a few hundred gold, just enough to cover potions, Inns, travel, and "entertainment".

Also, there was never any kind of magic mart; if we wanted a particular item we would talk to the DM, and we would either craft it, or go on a quest specifically to obtain it, or find some one else who had one and was willing to trade. Even if we had an extra god-killing greatsword lying around, unused gear couldn't be sold for more than a few thousand gold because no one but an adventurer could make really good use of it, and no NPC was dumb enough to trade an entire kingdom for a suit of armor....(ok, there we no NPC that was both dumb and RICH enough).

The unspoken rule was the DM would provide us with enough magic items to make us feel strong, and we wouldn't perform any shenanigans that would make Adam Smith and Thomas Malthus roll over in their graves. We wouldn't pry the adamantine door off it's hinges and the DM wouldn't have us beaten and robbed on the way back to town.


It takes a little bit more effort than just rolling on a random table, but it has the benefit of giving the DM more control and cutting out a lot of useless shopping trips, and if done well a lot more interesting items. In addition, (and I mentioned this in another thread recently) 2 of the 3 DMs I gamed with regularly cut or vastly restricted bags of holding and similar items from the game (specifically to avoid shenanigans) so encumberance was something we had to watch out for.

depends on the game, and the DM. With this game, you could do it. but with a bad DM, or one unwilling to work with the party(or lacking the orginizational skills to do so) wealth can go all over the place.



as for the artificer... it is one of the big 5, probably best to remove it entirely.