Touchsight VS Darkstalker, a Debate

[LanSlyde]

So, the title says it all and has sparked massive arms race between our DM and one of our other players. I want your opinions on the subject.

Darkstalker is a feat in Lords of Madness.
Touchsight is a psionic power from Expanding Psionics Handbook.

Our DM is of the mind that darkstalker beats out Touchsight, therefore his assassins can't be detected by our psion when they are trying to tickle his ribs.

Our psion is of the mind that because darkstalker does not specifically call out touchsight as a list of things blocked, it should bypass darkstalker.

Now, discuss!

[Dumbledore lives]

Looks like by RAW touchsight defeats Darkstalker, because Darkstalker lists blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense as things it effects, but I think it would be very reasonable to say it allows them to hide from touchsight. Honestly though I'd go with the DM on this one.

[LanSlyde]

Looks like by RAW touchsight defeats Darkstalker, because Darkstalker lists blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense as things it effects, but I think it would be very reasonable to say it allows them to hide from touchsight. Honestly though I'd go with the DM on this one.

Indeed, but when has RAW ever been logical? I mean I can understand both sides, touch-sight functions almost exactly like tremorsense, blindsight, blindsense, etc. So Darkstalker should defeat it.

On the other hand, it's also distinctly different from those abilities by its own wording. So I can see touchsight bypassing it.

So I'm on the fence with this one for now.

[Mnemnosyne]

By RAW, there is absolutely zero ambiguity. Touchsight beats darkstalker, because darkstalker lists precisely what it affects and touchsight isn't on that list.

Even outside of RAW and making a judgment call, I'd still stick to the same interpretation. Darkstalker doesn't beat touchsight.

[candycorn]

Stealth generally beats detection in D&D. This is one of the few exceptions.

Touchsight functions in a similar manner to blindsight, but it is not blindsight. By RAW, Darkstalker doesn't defeat it.

However, the DM does have the final say in this matter, and it's not totally unreasonable to rule otherwise.

There are ways to hinder assassins with a psion, other than this, however. They just involve a moderately higher ratio of cheese to regular play.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Touchsight should and does defeat darkstalker. Raw is on it's side as it's not called out, but look at what Touchsight does.

"You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact, allowing you to “feel” your surroundings even in total darkness or when your sight would otherwise be obscured by your physical environment."

It's like you are literally reaching out and touching everything around you. This should defeat darkstalker as easily as dropping a tarp on them would. Touchsight for it's part requires line of effect so it can be defeated by mundane means by popping out from behind things.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As others have said, RAW is pretty clear cut here.

Even the fluff makes this one pretty clear. Touchsight is creating a field of psychic energy that is basically an extension of your sense of touch. Anyone inside the field is effectively touching you, as far as your senses are concerned.

If that's not a good enough justification for your dm though, you can bet money that those assassins will light up a detect magic or arcane sight like the christmas tree they're dressed as.

Hmm..... half-ninja'd......? :smallconfused:

[LanSlyde]

As others have said, RAW is pretty clear cut here.

Even the fluff makes this one pretty clear. Touchsight is creating a field of psychic energy that is basically an extension of your sense of touch. Anyone inside the field is effectively touching you, as far as your senses are concerned.

If that's not a good enough justification for your dm though, you can bet money that those assassins will light up a detect magic or arcane sight like the christmas tree they're dressed as.

Hmm..... half-ninja'd......? :smallconfused:

Well yeah he himself said this, arcane sight, detect magic, detect life, mind-sight. He said all this foils darkstalker. Mindsight works because it doesn't actually pinpoint a creature so much as it locates the square that something with a brain is in.

But according to him touchsight fails because it functions like 'mental echolocation' as he put it. Just because it skips the middleman 'ears' doesn't mean it should foil darkstalker. tbh he explained his point much better than I did, if I can get his full writeup (yes, he wrote an entire paper on why darkstalker wins) I'll post it.

[Psyren]

He could make an argument for it not working if they're incorporeal, but if not I don't see how he could swing this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well yeah he himself said this, arcane sight, detect magic, detect life, mind-sight. He said all this foils darkstalker. Mindsight works because it doesn't actually pinpoint a creature so much as it locates the square that something with a brain is in.

But according to him touchsight fails because it functions like 'mental echolocation' as he put it. Just because it skips the middleman 'ears' doesn't mean it should foil darkstalker. tbh he explained his point much better than I did, if I can get his full writeup (yes, he wrote an entire paper on why darkstalker wins) I'll post it.

Sounds to me like he's invested in his opinion. You're probably not going to win this argument. Just move on and try to have fun anyway.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Benefit: ...creatures with blindsense,
blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must
make a Listen check or a Spot check...

Normal: Creatures with these senses do not need to make
Spot or Listen checks to notice other creatures within range.

RAW: If he has Touchsight, but does not have any of the listed senses, then Touchsight works just fine and he ignores his opponents' Darkstalker feats. If he has even one of the listed senses, then he must make a spot or listen check regardless of what other senses he may have. Note that the individual who has Darkstalker still has to be in conditions that enable the Hide skill to be used for this feat to have any effect at all.

[Psyren]

RAW: If he has Touchsight, but does not have any of the listed senses, then Touchsight works just fine and he ignores his opponents' Darkstalker feats. If he has even one of the listed senses, then he must make a spot or listen check regardless of what other senses he may have. Note that the individual who has Darkstalker still has to be in conditions that enable the Hide skill to be used for this feat to have any effect at all.

This is an unstoppable force/immovable object situation. If a creature has both blindsight and touchsight, Darkstalker would specifically say he needs to make a check while Touchsight specifically says he doesn't. Defaulting to one or the other is impossible by RAW because doing so violates the other, and each one is its own primary source for how it should work.

[LanSlyde]

RAW: If he has Touchsight, but does not have any of the listed senses, then Touchsight works just fine and he ignores his opponents' Darkstalker feats. If he has even one of the listed senses, then he must make a spot or listen check regardless of what other senses he may have. Note that the individual who has Darkstalker still has to be in conditions that enable the Hide skill to be used for this feat to have any effect at all.

Yeah yeah we get all this. This isn't about the conditions in which Darkstalker comes into play.

[Kelb_Panthera]

RAW: If he has Touchsight, but does not have any of the listed senses, then Touchsight works just fine and he ignores his opponents' Darkstalker feats. If he has even one of the listed senses, then he must make a spot or listen check regardless of what other senses he may have. Note that the individual who has Darkstalker still has to be in conditions that enable the Hide skill to be used for this feat to have any effect at all.

Touchsight is in essence, its own sense. It doesn't rely on, or even care about any of your other senses, except maybe touch. I've yet to see a compelling argument for a character to be unable to locate something he's touching.


....... though I have seen people unable to locate things they're touching IRL. Silly pot-heads.

[awa]

i can easily see it both ways psionicaly touching everything is not really so diffrent than Echolocation or or feeling displaced wind or vibrations through the ground. i think touch sense isnt listed not becuase the creators said this sense is specialy but becuase of oversight not much has touch sight deffintly compared to blind sight.

so if the dm says that in his game touch sight works like this id say go for it as long as he consistant and realises it's not raw.

p.s. spell check is not working so apologies in advance

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Addendum:

You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact, allowing you to “feel” your surroundings even in total darkness or when your sight would otherwise be obscured by your physical environment. Your touchsight field emanates from you out to 60 feet. You ignore invisibility, darkness, and concealment, though you must have line of effect to a creature or an object to discern it. You do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures; you can detect and pinpoint all creatures within 60 feet. In many circumstances, comparing your regular senses to what you learn with touchsight is enough to tell you the difference between visible, invisible, hiding, and concealed creatures.


RAW: If he has Touchsight, but does not have any of the listed senses, then Touchsight works just fine and he ignores his opponents' Darkstalker feats. If he has even one of the listed senses, then he must make a spot or listen check regardless of what other senses he may have. Note that the individual who has Darkstalker still has to be in conditions that enable the Hide skill to be used for this feat to have any effect at all.

Creatures within 60 feet of you are completely incapable of making Hide checks in the fist place, unless they have some condition other than those specifically listed enabling them to do so.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Addendum:




Creatures within 60 feet of you are completely incapable of making Hide checks in the fist place, unless they have some condition other than those specifically listed enabling them to do so.

This. Unless those assassins have a version of HiPS, they're caught by touchsight.

[Flickerdart]

If it's only out to 60 feet, why can't these so-called assassins just keep out of range?

[LanSlyde]

If it's only out to 60 feet, why can't these so-called assassins just keep out of range?

These are the rib tickling kind. We are indoors or underground a lot. Besides, I'd rather deal with Assassins than Cragtop Archers that come with an effective range of nearly a mile out.

[candycorn]

If it's only out to 60 feet, why can't these so-called assassins just keep out of range?

Most assassins have a rather limited range for all their good tricks (sneak attack, death attack, etc). That range is 30 feet.

Touchsight is 60 feet MINIMUM. It can easily get up to 120 feet, with a few more caster levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

Read that... you have to be, you know, incorporeal to defeat Touchsight...

Dark Ghost Darkstalker Whisper Gnomes, ahoy!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

These are the rib tickling kind. We are indoors or underground a lot. Besides, I'd rather deal with Assassins than Cragtop Archers that come with an effective range of nearly a mile out.

But did they make the Spot DC to see you, considering the -1 penalty per ten feet of distance?

[Psyren]

Since they won't get sneak/death attack from that range anyway, and CtA doesn't give any bonus damage either, it hardly matters. Normal arrow damage isn't going to assassinate anyone. Not to mention that their super-long-range arrows don't even get iteratives.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Obviously, convincing your DM he's wrong when he's written a frickin' thesis paper on his Touchsight vs. Darkstalker opinion won't be a simple matter. The root of the issue is that he's come up with his own interpretation of how Touchsight "works" in world and is has bent mechanics to fit his interpretation rather than his interpretation to fit perfectly functional RAW.

The way I visualize Touchsight, which I've never had contradicted before, is that it creates a horde of virtual hands which fan out in every direction and proceed to touch everything delivering a sensation of everything's shape and texture. The only logical way to avoid this is to be untouchable by either being behind something or being intangible. Further Touchsight doesn't need Darksight as a vulnerability to balance it. If you decide to bring our arguments to your DM you should point out that as I said before; Touchsight's vulnerability is that you can't see behind or through objects so even if someone Touchsight and another supernatural sense you can use Darksight to hide from the other senses and then launch their attack when a door is opened or a corner is turned.

[Flickerdart]

Since they won't get sneak/death attack from that range anyway
There's a spell for that.

[Ernir]

He could make an argument for it not working if they're incorporeal, but if not I don't see how he could swing this.

That's what Transdimensional Touchsight is for. :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

That's what Transdimensional Touchsight is for. :smalltongue:And Burrowing is for getting around those pesky statues and tapestries assassins love to hide behind.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Transdimensional touchsight could get a bit confusing. If you just happen to be in a place that is coexistant with an ethereal or shadow city, your touchsight is going to give you sensations of things you couldn't possibly percieve with normal senses. It still doesn't help you sense something incorporeal on the material plane either.

Does burrowing touchsight allow you to feel what's under someone's armor?........:smallredface:

[LanSlyde]

But did they make the Spot DC to see you, considering the -1 penalty per ten feet of distance?

With custom headgear they do. But then, I usually windwall and lol.

[Psyren]

There's a spell for that.

Yeah yeah, Sniper's Shot. Any optimized party who gets taken down by that deserved it imo, there's many ways to avoid arrows from that range.


That's what Transdimensional Touchsight is for. :smalltongue:

You're thinking Ethereal. Incorporeals are on the same plane as you, they're just intangible - i.e. TD spell will do nothing to them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah yeah, Sniper's Shot. Any optimized party who gets taken down by that deserved it imo, there's many ways to avoid arrows from that range.



You're thinking Ethereal. Incorporeals are on the same plane as you, they're just intangible - i.e. TD spell will do nothing to them.

If sniper's shot is being used by a cragtop assassin, they probably didn't see it coming. That's what snipers do.

[Psyren]

If the first salvo could drop you then you weren't paranoid enough to be adventuring anyway. And if subsequent shots could drop you, same thing.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This thread reminds me: If I adventure with someone who has touchsight, I'm taking points in psicraft and keeping my distance whenever he manifests it, even if it means stabbity death from assassins. Touching everything around you... creepy.

That aside, I agree that the RAW clearly favors Touchsight. The DM is trying to rationalize that Touchsight is similar to the abilities Darkstalker blocks (in a fluff way that never shows up in the books), but RAW clearly lists the abilities Darkstalker overcomes: "blindsight, scent, or tremorsense." Just because Touchsight is similar to blindsight doesn't mean it's the same thing, and just because the writers of Darkstalker made a few oversights doesn't mean you get to correct them and say that's what the books say.

A reasonable houserule? Perhaps, depending on how much the DM wanted those assassins to kill the PCs.

[Ernir]

You're thinking Ethereal. Incorporeals are on the same plane as you, they're just intangible - i.e. TD spell will do nothing to them.

I know, but Transdimensional Power specifically says it affects incorporeal creatures.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Transdimensional touchsight could get a bit confusing. If you just happen to be in a place that is coexistant with an ethereal or shadow city, your touchsight is going to give you sensations of things you couldn't possibly percieve with normal senses.


At the risk of sounding like *******; are scearios like these remotely common place in your games? If so, I'd think finding out these places exist and where they are might be worth the inconvenience.



Does burrowing touchsight allow you to feel what's under someone's armor?........:smallredface:

Not just under their clothes around and inside every part of them.:smallamused: Regardless of how unpleasant this sensation might be for the caster. :smalleek:

This thread reminds me: If I adventure with someone who has touchsight, I'm taking points in psicraft and keeping my distance whenever he manifests it, even if it means stabbity death from assassins. Touching everything around you... creepy.

Ya, my original fluff description of the ability was partly designed to maximize the perviness.

[GenghisDon]

So, the title says it all and has sparked massive arms race between our DM and one of our other players. I want your opinions on the subject.

Darkstalker is a feat in Lords of Madness.
Touchsight is a psionic power from Expanding Psionics Handbook.

Our DM is of the mind that darkstalker beats out Touchsight, therefore his assassins can't be detected by our psion when they are trying to tickle his ribs.

Our psion is of the mind that because darkstalker does not specifically call out touchsight as a list of things blocked, it should bypass darkstalker.

Now, discuss!

I'd go with darkstalker, as it was no doubt simply an oversight that "touchsight" isn't mentioned. Touchsight is a "bad" power as it does what blindsense, blindsight, ect, do, but simply isn't called thus. It's also the very least "psychic" way one can imagine sensing nearby creatures. Obviously the kineticist needed a L3 power (& uber power at that). Aweful.

OTOH, darkstalker seems a bad idea entirely, an non-sense "magical" feat available to anyone L1 & up. It's bull****. Terrible.

[LanSlyde]

This thread reminds me: If I adventure with someone who has touchsight, I'm taking points in psicraft and keeping my distance whenever he manifests it, even if it means stabbity death from assassins. Touching everything around you... creepy.

That aside, I agree that the RAW clearly favors Touchsight. The DM is trying to rationalize that Touchsight is similar to the abilities Darkstalker blocks (in a fluff way that never shows up in the books), but RAW clearly lists the abilities Darkstalker overcomes: "blindsight, scent, or tremorsense." Just because Touchsight is similar to blindsight doesn't mean it's the same thing, and just because the writers of Darkstalker made a few oversights doesn't mean you get to correct them and say that's what the books say.

A reasonable houserule? Perhaps, depending on how much the DM wanted those assassins to kill the PCs.

It's not that he wanted us dead. So much as he didn't want his high CR 'mid boss' to be countered in the 1st round of combat. You see, the guy in question was leading a hit squad that was out to murder us. We noticed them early and closed formation. However, flashbangs were tossed and our psion threw up an iron wall to give us some prep time. After it dropped our cleric and barbarian dropped two out five with criticals. Our psion threw 'the book' at a 3rd, shouting "behold the power of academia!", which ended up dusting a third. The other 2 ran off while the big guy maneuvered into position. The fight went down, we won, he ran off.

Note: The Book was a 50 page tome that our psion filled with nothing but 5d10 psionic glyphs of warding. He planned on using the pages as landmines. However he never got the chance. The damage dealt to the poor assassin was well into the 2000s.

[LanSlyde]

OTOH, darkstalker seems a bad idea entirely, an non-sense "magical" feat available to anyone L1 & up. It's bull****. Terrible.

On the contrary. It puts some measure of power back in the hands of any stealthy character that deals with a lot of critters that would otherwise completely foil his uber high stealth check.

To call it terrible is whats bs. Hell it feat for crying out loud. Those things are rare. I don't know about you but I would like to get the most use out of mine.

[Kelb_Panthera]

At the risk of sounding like *******; are scearios like these remotely common place in your games? If so, I'd think finding out these places exist and where they are might be worth the inconvenience.



Not just under their clothes around and inside every part of them.:smallamused: Regardless of how unpleasant this sensation might be for the caster. :smalleek:


Ya, my original fluff description of the ability was partly designed to maximize the perviness.

Commonplace, no. Certainly within the realm of possibility though, my ethereal and shadow planes are hardly empty.

Also, that makes burrowing touchsight something I don't think I'd ever want to manifest, no matter the risks it might eliminate. :smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

Yeah yeah, Sniper's Shot. Any optimized party who gets taken down by that deserved it imo, there's many ways to avoid arrows from that range.
If assassins can just walk up to them, they're already not optimized enough to do much about arrows from a mile away.

[LanSlyde]

If assassins can just walk up to them, they're already not optimized enough to do much about arrows from a mile away.

You say that like we just let them walk up and poke us |-_-|. We were alerted to their approach and reacted accordingly. As for dealing with arrows from a mile out, after the first volley everyone is either behind cover or safely behind a wind wall. So hush:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

If assassins can just walk up to them, they're already not optimized enough to do much about arrows from a mile away.

The assassins can't walk right up to them, remember? The DM is houseruling.


I know, but Transdimensional Power specifically says it affects incorporeal creatures.

So it does, mea culpa

[Flickerdart]

The assassins can't walk right up to them, remember? The DM is houseruling.
They could totally walk up to them even without the houserule. 60 feet is just a charge away for even the most range-challenged individuals, and unless the Psion has Contingency: Win, they still get the drop on the party.

[LanSlyde]

They could totally walk up to them even without the houserule. 60 feet is just a charge away for even the most range-challenged individuals, and unless the Psion has Contingency: Win, they still get the drop on the party.

Except.. you know.. assassins don't normally charge in. They tend to try and sneak in. Which, again, we thwarted. Idk why your focusing on this point when the discussion was about touchsight and darkstalker. :smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

Except.. you know.. assassins don't normally charge in. They tend to try and sneak in. Which, again, we thwarted. Idk why your focusing on this point when the discussion was about touchsight and darkstalker. :smallconfused:
I'm not sure what more you expect about Touchsight and Darkstalker. It's been pretty firmly established that Darkstalker doesn't block it, so unless you want to restrict the conversation to a series of identical post all agreeing with what's already been said, there's no need to pounce on people like that.

[LanSlyde]

I'm not sure what more you expect about Touchsight and Darkstalker. It's been pretty firmly established that Darkstalker doesn't block it, so unless you want to restrict the conversation to a series of identical post all agreeing with what's already been said, there's no need to pounce on people like that.

Indeed, but your previous posts sound like your assuming we are incompetent. But this could be a perceived slight on my part.

[GenghisDon]

On the contrary. It puts some measure of power back in the hands of any stealthy character that deals with a lot of critters that would otherwise completely foil his uber high stealth check.

To call it terrible is whats bs. Hell it feat for crying out loud. Those things are rare. I don't know about you but I would like to get the most use out of mine.

Sorry, I stand by it. Give it some kind of pre-req's and it becomes slightly more palatable. slightly.

BTW, do you remember when such senses were rare on a PC/NPC/monster? Having a handful of critters "immune" to sneakers is fine. It's a problem when it's become common as mud. And the cycle of cheese churns on, necessitating this new feat as a counter. Feh!

Power Inflation: no, one does not have to like it.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the DM is well within his rights to hose touchsight, "special" as it is, or not.

As for Assassins vs the psion, wouldn't Ninja's be the way to go? Does the Psion in question HAVE transdimensional touchsight up all the time?

hmmm...looking at the feat, I can see why complete psi gets so much hate. Transdimensional costs NADA to use. LOL. Well, I guess it's nice to be able to kill off cowardly nova mages in their rope trick-mansion spells. Or annihilate all a party's loot in their hewards/bags/port holes with sonic AOE.

On touchsight's sillyness factor, why on earth doesn't everyone in the AOE NOTICE the spell (power, sorry) or at least have a chance to? I mean, it's literally "touching" them all. That doesn't make it useless, but it certainly makes it hard to sneak around yourself with it going.

[LanSlyde]

Sorry, I stand by it. Give it some kind of pre-req's and it becomes slightly more palatable. slightly.

BTW, do you remember when such senses were rare on a PC/NPC/monster? Having a handful of critters "immune" to sneakers is fine. It's a problem when it's become common as mud. And the cycle of cheese churns on, necessitating this new feat as a counter. Feh!

Power Inflation: no, one does not have to like it.

Indeed, it is a problem when the dm likes to throw things at you that automatically negate your ability to hide so often is becomes 'common as mud'.

[Flickerdart]

On touchsight's sillyness factor, why on earth doesn't everyone in the AOE NOTICE the spell (power, sorry) or at least have a chance to? I mean, it's literally "touching" them all. That doesn't make it useless, but it certainly makes it hard to sneak around yourself with it going.
Go outside or take a swim in the ocean, then tell me how many bats or dolphins you heard echolocating you.

[LanSlyde]

BTW, I'm pretty sure the DM is well within his rights to hose touchsight, "special" as it is, or not.

As for Assassins vs the psion, wouldn't Ninja's be the way to go? Does the Psion in question HAVE transdimensional touchsight up all the time?

hmmm...looking at the feat, I can see why complete psi gets so much hate. Transdimensional costs NADA to use. LOL. Well, I guess it's nice to be able to kill off cowardly nova mages in their rope trick-mansion spells. Or annihilate all a party's loot in their hewards/bags/port holes with sonic AOE.

On touchsight's sillyness factor, why on earth doesn't everyone in the AOE NOTICE the spell (power, sorry) or at least have a chance to? I mean, it's literally "touching" them all. That doesn't make it useless, but it certainly makes it hard to sneak around yourself with it going.

While he is within his rights ignore RAW, its isn't very 'palatable', as you like to put things. I don't know where you got the idea about the psion having transdimensional touchsight. He just used plain old touchsight. :smallconfused:

While the field is indeed touching them, your ignoring the 'subtle telekinetic field' descriptor. Yeah, its touching them, but so is air. Think of it like how roaches know something is heading their way long before they can see it by sensing the change in air pressure and current. Touchsight would be similar, but instead of air, you have an imperceptible field of force.

[GenghisDon]

Go outside or take a swim in the ocean, then tell me how many bats or dolphins you heard echolocating you.

now you are talking about blindsight & blindsense, not touchsense. touchsense is LITERALLY using FORCE to notice things

on "air pressure"...yes, one can notice a breeze, air current, ect. The power is WAY too good for a telekinetic L3 effect. Doubly so if it is "unnoticable". It's supposedly comprable to TK force, TK thrust & less difficult than a TK maneuver? Come on.

Subtle would imply "difficult" to notice. Wisdom check DC 15-20 perhaps.

[killianh]

On topic: Touchsight wins as it is a field of energy, not truly a sense, nor echolocation, or an emanation. It is a separate ability and would winout over dalkstalker. But DM is final authority on the matter, and with that paper written it sounds like the other player is stuck with it. Using a TO character is RAW legal, but DM has the right to say no.

Off topic: A bit of a jerk move on that one. The DM should have known about that player's ability and should have (a few sessions in advance so as to not ruin the plot) laid down the house rule. Doing an in-game character nerfing isn't only time consuming, but also detracts from the fun of playing a character you've built up to be something specific. No one wants to build a charger then (after the first round of damage) be told that Battle Jump and the Barb ACF spirit totem lion (grants full attack on charges) aren't allowed/don't work in whatever way the written rules say they do.

[LanSlyde]

on "air pressure"...yes, one can notice a breeze, air current, ect. The power is WAY too good for a telekinetic L3 effect. Doubly so if it is "unnoticable". It's supposedly comprable to TK force, TK thrust & less difficult than a TK maneuver? Come on.

Subtle would imply "difficult" to notice. Wisdom check DC 15-20 perhaps.

Where the hell are you getting the idea that its 'supposedly comparable' to TK force?

Also, no you shouldn't get a wisdom check to notice you just passed through an imperceptible telekinetic field. Or even if a DM did that I would call shenanigans at a DC 15-20. I mean seriously, how would anyone be able to tell the difference between a slight breeze and the emanation? The only way I can think of would be with some sort of detect psionics active. Which at that point would render any sort of check pointless.

[LanSlyde]

On topic: Touchsight wins as it is a field of energy, not truly a sense, nor echolocation, or an emanation. It is a separate ability and would winout over dalkstalker. But DM is final authority on the matter, and with that paper written it sounds like the other player is stuck with it. Using a TO character is RAW legal, but DM has the right to say no.


You know, you have point. It's a field of energy, not an actual sense.

[Flickerdart]

now you are talking about blindsight & blindsense, not touchsense. touchsense is LITERALLY using FORCE to notice things

And echolocation is using sound. Sound that you can't hear. Why not force that you can't feel?

[Psyren]

They could totally walk up to them even without the houserule. 60 feet is just a charge away for even the most range-challenged individuals, and unless the Psion has Contingency: Win, they still get the drop on the party.

60 feet is the minimum range. Which would again go back to my earlier point about not being paranoid enough to survive.

[GenghisDon]

Where the hell are you getting the idea that its 'supposedly comparable' to TK force?

Also, no you shouldn't get a wisdom check to notice you just passed through an imperceptible telekinetic field. Or even if a DM did that I would call shenanigans at a DC 15-20. I mean seriously, how would anyone be able to tell the difference between a slight breeze and the emanation? The only way I can think of would be with some sort of detect psionics active. Which at that point would render any sort of check pointless.

It's the same level power? how do you compare powers?

DC 15-20 isn't all that easy, it's a straight wis check. 20 is awefully hard, even impossible for many characters. To be honest, my perspective is ALWAYS from the DM first. So it's probably YOUR sneaking character getting a chance to notice something is up/odd. Believe me, I know a good power when I see it, and cheezey/silly or not, touchsight is a very nice L3 pick for my NPC/monster. TONS of PC's get to cry a river.

[GenghisDon]

And echolocation is using sound. Sound that you can't hear. Why not force that you can't feel?

Why not make it a L6 TK power? I'll stop complaining about it then.

Add a L3 clairsentience power of Blindsight/sense & you are good to go.

[LanSlyde]

DC 15-20 isn't all that easy, it's a straight wis check. 20 is awefully hard, even impossible for many characters. To be honest, my perspective is ALWAYS from the DM first. So it's probably YOUR sneaking character getting a chance to notice something is up/odd. Believe me, I know a good power when I see it, and cheezey/silly or not, touchsight is a very nice L3 pick for my NPC/monster. TONS of PC's get to cry a river.

Dude, I don't even play the rogue. But I can't help but feel sympathetic when a DM blatantly alters RAW just to avoid the stomping his mobs about to get. I call shenanigans.


Why not make it a L6 TK power? I'll stop complaining about it then.

Add a L3 clairsentience power of Blindsight/sense & you are good to go.

This... I have nothing to say to this... your set in your ways just like my DM is.

[GenghisDon]

rogue? It's the mages/casters that will hate touch field most...mirror image, blur, displacement, invisibility X, darkness X, fog X, illusion X, blindness X, all become pretty useless.

Regardless of what YOU are currently playing, presumably the rogue/sneak or caster is your ally, & you want them to be successful. The casters in particular might actually try to aid you with a spell. I know I'd cast displacement on a warrior or greater invis on a rogue, for examples.

I probably am set in my ways, but not quite like your DM. I didn't like the darkstalker feat either, you will recall.

[killianh]

I view things from the DM seat myself most times, and in this instant I can't help but say that if I allowed them to take the feat in the first place and didn't add my house rule in advance or see if there would be any issues when initially planning my encounters to protect my mobs then the fault would fall on my shoulders and not the player's. Either way to sum up what I've seen in this thread TL;DR version:

Touch sense wins out via both RAW and RAI
DM should have final say, but should have also fixed this in advance
Some feel it's too powerful to be a feat, while others think feats are rare and that kind of power is fair
There are enough other options to fix the encounter idea for both the PCs and the DM that moving on should be easy

I think that should wrap it up

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The reason you don't detect touchsight at all (without Psicrafting the manifestation) is that it doesn't exert any actual force. That's why you know the texture and shape of things but not their consistency. It stops and only reports on the outermost layer of things.

To touch on the pervey scenario you know exactly how much the boobies push the shirt out and the texture of the shirt, but that's it, you don't know how springy they are or whether their warm to the touch. You could even be fooled by a good bra stuffing. On a side note this means that as fun as it might be to joke about, most people wouldn't be aroused by this.


As purely meta game balance, thinking only about being fair to stealthy types and those that must deal with them, Touchsight should defeat Darkstalker. I see a hierarchy of fairness in my head that goes something like.

People with Poor perception
Defeated by Stealth
(Defeated by better Perception
Defeated by better Stealth) repeat ad infinitum
Defeated by most Passive Super Senses
Defeated by Darkstalker
Defeated by a small number of Active Super Senses

The fact that something has to tip off the Psion to make him use Touchsight should be a sufficient balancing factor. Barring infinite PP tricks is there a way to have Touchsight up all the time? If it would require custom items just don't let them exist.

It feels like the problem here isn't touchsight being OP, but that the DM wasn't ready for it(his own fault), because it is not an undefeatable anti-stealth nuke it can be defeated through mundane means that I've already pointed out.

The ambush was foiled by Wall of Iron, and the DM's response was to demand that an assassin that the party is aware of and prepped for do some damage on an open battlefield. To me that's just the height of silliness, he should have retreated and tried again later when Touchsight wouldn't be up and possibly using a method that would defeat Touchsight. You don't even need to know about Touchsight to defeat it, hiding under the bed, behind a drape, against the wall on the side the door opens to, being around a corner all defeat Touchsight, honestly it isn't a stealth-breaking game changer it really just levels the playing field and puts balance back where it should be.

Stealth almost 100% defeats the unaware, you can't sneak up on people who are on their guard without a plan, you have a decent chance of lying in wait until your target drops their guard.

[Hyde]

Touchsight defeats Darkstalker.

Even if we were to assume that Darkstalker's lack of an inclusive clause (These plus things like it that we haven't made up yet, or aren't thinking about right now). The senses detailed by Darkstalker all share one thing in common

They are all (typically) extraordinary abilities, where touchsight isn't.

And yeah, I'll go ahead and echo the "tarp" analogy from earlier.


Personally, I would make a case for touchsight being able to be bypassed with PR or MR, but that really is just me.

[Flickerdart]

Why not make it a L6 TK power? I'll stop complaining about it then.

Add a L3 clairsentience power of Blindsight/sense & you are good to go.
Whether or not you will complain about something bothers me not in the least. It's a perfectly fine power at the level it currently is.

[LanSlyde]

Well then, thread concluded gentlemen.