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JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 01:50 AM
I was thinking about how I've always wanted to play a half-dragon, but have never had the chance to really try one because I haven't been in games with that high of level for a while. So I was thinking maybe I should make a base race that's got a lower level adjustment. Something like Planetouched meets half-dragon. So here it is, the Wyrm-Blood. It's incomplete as far as fluff, but the crunch is done:

Wyrm-Bloods
Stories abound of smaller races mating with seemingly normal members of their race, only to give birth to something with more than a little dragon blood in their veins, these children often having a light covering of scales that become more pronounced as they age, as well as prodigious strength, a sharp wit, and a winning personality. There children are half-dragons, obvious manifestations of their draconic parents' bloodline. If these creatures procreate, further down the family tree, the draconic heritage may show itself in a knack for sorcery.

In some cases, though, when humans with these bloodlines meet and mate, they can sometimes produce a very unique offspring, a being called a Wyrm-Blood. Wyrm-Bloods have a much more diluted tie to their draconic progenitors, but they are definitely further from normal humans than just any sorcerer. Wyrm-Bloods appear noticeably different from other humans, and when raised by non-Wyrm-Bloods, are often mistaken for some other kind of creature, such as a tiefling. The extra amount of oddness caused by their appearance combined with the fact that they aren't as powerful as half-dragons often sees them shunned by society early on in life.

Personality: Wyrm-Bloods have a lot in common with their human ancestors. They are quite adaptable and flexible. They tend to try to blend in with human culture, often finding ways to hide among humans, especially in social melting pots where they can simply wear a hood to cover up a horn or make-up to hide an odd skin tone or pretend to be something else. Others seek out knowledge of dragon kind and aspire to be more like their more immense forefathers. Although given their longevity from their wyrm blood, it is possible they will someday develop a culture of their own.

Physical Description: Wyrm-Bloods tend to be around the same size as humans, and tend to look much like humans, but usually with some tell-tale strangeness about them. All have tiny, barely noticeable scales covering their bodies, providing them some small protection, but on some, the scales are slightly more apparent in some areas, and sometimes the scales are the color of a metallic or chromatic ancestor. Others have a particularly strong scent, such as a Wyrm-Blood descended from a silver dragon always smelling strongly of rain or the descendent of a green dragon smelling like chlorine. Others have noticeably strange colored eyes with slit pupils and are often mistaken for some other slightly reptilian race, such as a Yuan-Ti Pureblood. The most often shunned Wyrm-Bloods with a glaringly obvious sign of their draconic ancestors, such as those with blue dragon blood possessing a miniature version of the jagged yellow horn dragons of that type possess, or a copper dragon Wyrm-Blood having long, flat horns made of overlapping segments.

Relations: Wyrm-Bloods that appear in non-Wyrm-Blood communities tend to be shunned by a lot of people. They tend to get along well with other outcasts, though, once they've proven themselves. Half-elves and half-orcs, particularly. Among dragonkind, they are often looked down upon as being weak and for having diluted blood, but oddly, kobolds are usually quite friendly.

Alignment: Like humans, Wyrm-Bloods don't gravitate toward any specific alignment. The best and worst are found among Wyrm-Bloods and there are just as many Black descended Wyrm-Blood paladins as there are Silver descended Wyrm-Blood necromancers (as the race has only recently started to show significant numbers, there aren't many of either of those, but you get the point).

Wyrm-Blood Lands: Wyrm-Bloods usually have no land of their own, but some small isolated communities of them exist. They usually choose out of the way places so as to be left alone.

Religion: Wyrm-Bloods aren't particularly religious. The ones that are tend to worship deities relating to travel or those whose domains are things relating to their draconic forefathers, like a Gold Wyrm-Blood might worship a fire deity whereas a Black Wyrm-Blood might pay homage to a god of swamps.

Languages: Wyrm-Bloods tend to speak common and it is common for them to either pass on Draconic to their children, if a Wyrm-Blood has Wyrm-Blood children, or if a Wyrm-Blood child crops up in another place, when they are older, they often seek out and learn Draconic.

Names: Many favor human names, but in the places where these outcasts gather, they sometimes pick second names based on their color or the color of their parents.

Adventurers: Wyrm-Bloods are natural adventurers, as they often are thought odd at best by society at large. Many travel to learn more about their draconic (or human) heritage. Those that occur randomly among the human population often adventure because they don't have a place among normal humans, as they have prolonged life spans and often signs of being not quite human. The seek to find a place for themselves in the world. Those that are born in secluded Wyrm-Blood communities often adventure because their parents are Wyrm-Bloods who already found a place in the world, and it's quite boring there.

Wyrm-Blood Racial Traits:

+2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. Wyrm-Bloods are resilient like their draconic forefathers, but not too nimble.


Medium: As Medium creatures, Wyrm-Bloods have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Wyrm-Blood base land speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision out to 60 ft.

+1 Natural Armor: Even if they aren't visible, all Wyrm-Bloods are covered in tiny scales.

Humanoid (dragonblood): Wyrm-Bloods are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype. For all effects related to race, a Wyrm-Blood is considered a dragon.

Elemental Spit (Ex): A Wyrm-Blood does not possess the full ability to breath a breath weapon that its draconic ancestors have, but it can build up a gooey, sticky substance made up of the element its draconic forefather's breath weapon and expel it in the form of a glob of spit. As a standard action, it can spit at a given target, making a ranged touch attack. If the glob of spit sticks, it does 1d6 damage of the element of its wyrm ancestor, for a number of rounds equal to the Wyrm-Blood's Constitution modifier. The glob of spit can be launched 5 feet per level. For the more martially inclined, as a move action, the Wyrm-Blood can apply his Elemental Spit to a melee weapon, adding the elemental damage to the attacks with the weapon for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution modifier. Elemental Spit is usable only once per day.

Due to the sticky nature of the substance, it is hard to remove and pouring water on it does nothing. Total submersion in water or taking a full round action to smother it with sand or dirt or a similar substance will end the ongoing damage.

Any weapon the Elemental Spit is applied to has a 20% chance of breaking when the Spit loses its potency. Masterwork and magic weapons have no chance of doing this.

+2 Racial bonus on saves versus sleep and paralysis effects.

+2 Racial bonus to a skill dependent on their draconic ancestor, as follows:

Black Wyrm-Bloods have Acid Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Hide

Blue Wyrm-Bloods have Lightning Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Listen

Green Wyrm-Bloods have Acid Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Move Silently

Red Wyrm-Bloods have Fire Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Intimidate

White Wyrm-Bloods have Cold Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Balance

Brass Wyrm-Bloods have Fire Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Gather Information

Bronze Wyrm-Bloods have Electricity Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Survival

Copper Wyrm-Bloods have Acid Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Hide

Gold Wyrm-Bloods have Fire Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Heal

Silver Wyrm-Bloods have Cold Wyrm Spit and racial bonus to Disguise


Resistance to the element of their Elemental Spit equal to 1/2 their class levels (Resistance 1 at level 2, Resistance 2 at level 4, so on and so on.)

Natural Attacks: 2 claws (1d4)

Automatic Languages: Common and Draconic. Bonus Languages: Any. Wyrm-Bloods have quite a knack for languages, just like their human ancestors.


Favored Class: Barbarian (tentatively)

Level Adjustment: +1




What I'm specifically unsure about is:
Does it meet the +1 LA? EDITED: I'm working on giving it just a little more.
Should the range on the Wyrm Spit be greater/shorter? EDITED: I'm going with 5 feet per point of Constitution modifier and tentatively calling it Elemental Spit.
What should favored class be? EDITED: Barbarian has been suggested.


Also, it qualifies for dragonblooded feats and it could potentially get a few feats to improve its Wyrm Spit.

Edited: I'll be posting a list of feats that it can qualify for from various books, as well as making up some new feats when I get around to it. They will be under the spoiler tag below:



Races of the Dragon Feats:

Accelerate Metamagic, Dragon Tail, Dragon Trainer, Dragon Wings, Improved Dragon Wings, Practical Metamagic.

A note: These feats came before many of the Draconic feats in Dragon Magic, which often have dragonblood subtype as a prerequisite. The ones in Dragon Magic have the Draconic descriptor and count as Draconic feats for other feats that increase in power based on the number of Draconic feats the character possesses. The feats in Races of the Dragon do not have the Draconic descriptor, so whether or not they count as Draconic feats is up to DMs discretion, I suppose.

Dragon Magic Feats:

Armor of Scales, Draconic Senses, Dragonfire Assault*, Dragonfire Channeling*, Dragonfire Inspiration*, Dragonfire Strike*, Heart of Dragons

*These feats normally have fire effects, but as a Wyrm-Blooded, they use the same element as the Wyrm-Blood's Wyrm-Spit ability.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 02:03 AM
Also, I didn't format it that well, I realize. I'll see if I can make that a bit better.

silphael
2012-07-30, 04:01 AM
About LA, it probably need some more abilities adjustement, like one or two +2 more.

The range could be greater, but as it is is fun too. Maybe add 10-15 feet to the range: it's only once per day, after all.

Bonus to constitution, apparently growing out of society? Barbarian looks like perfect for them, I think.

About bonus language, I don't love making a limit on it. If you are wanting to study a language from far away, why not?

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 04:31 AM
About LA, it probably need some more abilities adjustement, like one or two +2 more.

The range could be greater, but as it is is fun too. Maybe add 10-15 feet to the range: it's only once per day, after all.

Bonus to constitution, apparently growing out of society? Barbarian looks like perfect for them, I think.

About bonus language, I don't love making a limit on it. If you are wanting to study a language from far away, why not?

As for the range, my original thought was to have the range also dependent on Con modifier, but I felt that might be too many things dependent on that. And for the ability adjustments, I wanted to err on the side of underpower because I kind of liked giving them a good mix of random things that are all things half-dragons have more of.

Also, the range was more of a secondary thing to me. My first idea for the class was the use of it on a weapon. I just sort of visualized this big warrior dude with a big yellow horn in the middle of his head hacking a big crackling blue loogey onto the blade of his sword and going to town.

And as I mentioned, I was thinking of making a new feat that allows it to be used more often.

Also, the bonus to Constitution and negative to Dexterity were just my first thoughts. I wasn't sure if I wanted to go with Strength as the bonus and normal dragons seem pretty much everything but Dexterous. But I may consider changing that, if anyone can make a compelling argument for something different.

Thanks for reading, though.

Noctis Vigil
2012-07-30, 05:15 AM
I would leave the ability modifiers as-is for now; it's already tailor-made to Barbarian, don't make it worse with a Str bonus.

As far as a race goes, this is awesome, I would totally play it. No idea if it's LA1 or not, but we tend to ignore LA of 2 or less at my table, so I'm really not the right one to ask.

I love the idea of hocking elemental loogies at your foes. You definitely need feats to let them do this more.

Y'know, I may use this at my table to test my Incanter base class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247131) that I wrote. It'd be pretty awesome for it. Will let you know how it goes if I do.

Also, for the sake of Rule of Cool, I propose a feat to give them a bite attack as well. :smallbiggrin:

PS: Languages should include Draconic, as well as possibly the elemental languages.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 06:02 AM
I would leave the ability modifiers as-is for now; it's already tailor-made to Barbarian, don't make it worse with a Str bonus.

As far as a race goes, this is awesome, I would totally play it. No idea if it's LA1 or not, but we tend to ignore LA of 2 or less at my table, so I'm really not the right one to ask.

I love the idea of hocking elemental loogies at your foes. You definitely need feats to let them do this more.

Y'know, I may use this at my table to test my Incanter base class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247131) that I wrote. It'd be pretty awesome for it. Will let you know how it goes if I do.

Also, for the sake of Rule of Cool, I propose a feat to give them a bite attack as well. :smallbiggrin:

PS: Languages should include Draconic, as well as possibly the elemental languages.

Well, I wasn't thinking Strength for sure, I figured it would be either Strength, Constitution, or Charisma, all of which half-dragons get a bonus to. I never really considered Intelligence, which half-dragons also get a bonus to, because I guess I just didn't see that coming through the bloodline as much as other things might have. And I had considered also or instead giving them the bonus to Charisma, but I decided against it because I see sorcerers as being able to blend in or sort of stand out in a good way, and half-dragons would just be such a commanding presence that even if you were freaked out by them, you'd be a little in awe. I wanted Wyrm-Bloods to be like the awkward younger sister of the half-dragon that still wears her hair up in a braid and hasn't switched to contacts.

I'm going to look over some feats in Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon (and Dragon Magic, if I can find it) and see what feats are similar and such before writing up some tentative feats for this race.

When deciding on a natural weapon, I considered a bite, but I figure one mouth related thing was enough for base. And I figured I didn't want to give them both claws and bite to start with, but I probably will do a bite type of feat.

PaintByBlood
2012-07-30, 07:05 AM
I would never play it, but the spit thing is awesome even still. I think you shouldn't limit it to just 15ft. Maybe something like what Dragonborn get with their breath weapon: 5ft./character level.
I'd also suggest making other features improve over time, as it is a very draconic thing to do. Perhaps with the elemental resistance, for example.

I also feel like Darkvision shouldn't be there - since it's supposed to be highly diluted down from dragons, low-light vision seems like it might make more sense.

Aside from that, I think it fits the LA fairly well. Some LA +1's have more ability adjustments, but they also don't get a breath(ish) weapon, claws, natural armor, elemental reduction, and other little bonuses at the same time.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 07:19 AM
I would never play it, but the spit thing is awesome even still. I think you shouldn't limit it to just 15ft. Maybe something like what Dragonborn get with their breath weapon: 5ft./character level.
I'd also suggest making other features improve over time, as it is a very draconic thing to do. Perhaps with the elemental resistance, for example.

I also feel like Darkvision shouldn't be there - since it's supposed to be highly diluted down from dragons, low-light vision seems like it might make more sense.

Aside from that, I think it fits the LA fairly well. Some LA +1's have more ability adjustments, but they also don't get a breath(ish) weapon, claws, natural armor, elemental reduction, and other little bonuses at the same time.

Well, I just...really like having darkvision. I can't tell you how many times I've enjoyed the look on my DM's face when he tries to do some trick and snuff the party's torches and right before whatever is trying to sneak up on us can attack, I remind him that I'm a half-orc. Also, I just found out that if you take three draconic feats and then Draconic Sense, you'll gain low-light vision and darkvision, anyway. So I might take the darkvision off, I suppose.

I will take the scaling abilities into consideration, though.

Noctis Vigil
2012-07-30, 07:27 AM
I'd keep the darkvision. If they've enough dragon in them to be born with horns and slit reptilian eyes, they've enough to see in the dark.

As far as feats go, I'd pile both increased number of shots and increased range for them into one feat, as far as the breath-loogies are concerned. While fun and flavorful, they're weak enough to power up both at the same time.

I have a couple ideas for unique feats as well. If it's fine with you, I'll write them up and post them. Would you mind?

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 07:33 AM
Go ahead and post away.

Another thing I considered was shortening the range of the darkvision. I still need to give it some more thought as I keep working on the fluff of the class and such.

Also, PaintByBlood, do you have any ideas for how the progression might go for the elemental resistances? And what else could increase by level?

Noctis Vigil
2012-07-30, 07:58 AM
I have seen darkvision scale by level before. I forget the class, but it granted you 60 foot darkvision, then boosted it twice so you had 120 foot darkvision by the end of the class.

Also, feats:

Sustained Spit
Your Wyrm Spit lingers longer.
Prerequisites: Wyrm-Blooded race
Benefits: Your Wyrm Spit lasts twice as long as normal. It now fades away after a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution modifier.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times; it's effects stack. Taking it a second time makes your Wyrm Spit last a number of rounds equal to three times your Con mod, taking it a third time makes it last four times, et cetera.

Wyrm Weapon
Prerequisites: Wyrm-Blood race, Sustained Spit
Benefits: You may create weapons imbued with the power of your Wyrm Spit. When you craft a masterwork weapon, you may choose to add one day to the crafting time, 100 gold to the cost and +5 to the craft DC for the masterwork component. Doing so successfully forges the power of your Wyrm Spit into the weapon, making it do 1d6 damage of the element your Wyrm Spit deals. This is not a magical property added into the weapon; it is an innate, mundane property of the weapon itself.

Wyrm Armor
Prerequisites: Wyrm-Blood race, Sustained Spit
Benefits: You may create armors imbued with the power of your Wyrm Spit. When you craft a masterwork armor, you may choose to add one day to the crafting time, 100 gold to the cost and +5 to the craft DC for the masterwork component. Doing so successfully forges the power of your Wyrm Spit into the armor, making it grant resistance 5 of the element your Wyrm Spit deals. This is not a magical property added into the armor; it is an innate, mundane property of the armor itself.

Let me know if you think any of these need to be changed, JetThomasBoat. I just typed what came to me.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 08:11 AM
Sustained Spit
Your Wyrm Spit lingers longer.
Prerequisites: Wyrm-Blooded race
Benefits: Your Wyrm Spit lasts twice as long as normal. It now fades away after a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution modifier.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times; it's effects stack. Taking it a second time makes your Wyrm Spit last a number of rounds equal to three times your Con mod, taking it a third time makes it last four times, et cetera.

Wyrm Weapon
Prerequisites: Wyrm-Blood race, Sustained Spit
Benefits: You may create weapons imbued with the power of your Wyrm Spit. When you craft a masterwork weapon, you may choose to add one day to the crafting time, 100 gold to the cost and +5 to the craft DC for the masterwork component. Doing so successfully forges the power of your Wyrm Spit into the weapon, making it do 1d6 damage of the element your Wyrm Spit deals. This is not a magical property added into the weapon; it is an innate, mundane property of the weapon itself.

Wyrm Armor
Prerequisites: Wyrm-Blood race, Sustained Spit
Benefits: You may create armors imbued with the power of your Wyrm Spit. When you craft a masterwork armor, you may choose to add one day to the crafting time, 100 gold to the cost and +5 to the craft DC for the masterwork component. Doing so successfully forges the power of your Wyrm Spit into the armor, making it grant resistance 5 of the element your Wyrm Spit deals. This is not a magical property added into the armor; it is an innate, mundane property of the armor itself.

Let me know if you think any of these need to be changed, JetThomasBoat. I just typed what came to me.

Well, the ones with the items, my concern is that...well, that they are a bit powerful for what would technically be non-magical items. I think it ends up just being a cheaper way to get a flaming sword or whatever.

Maybe instead of forging it into the weapons, maybe a feat that allows you to distill the substance of the spit and make a weapon oil? That way, say your Wyrm-Blood fighter has some down time while the mage studies new spells in town. So he makes some spit potions that basically do the same thing and gives some in beakers to the rogue to use as grenade type weapons, and gives a couple in sturdy vials to the barbarian to pour on his greataxe?

And I'm also not sure about letting the player take sustained spit multiple times.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 08:19 AM
I'll be adding in some things I forgot about the mechanics of the Wyrm Spit. Specifically that if the Wyrm-Blood spits it onto a weapon, if the weapon isn't at least Mastwork quality, it weakens the weapon, leaving it with a -1 to attack and damage rolls and a cumulative 10% chance of breaking, so after ten more hits when the spit wears off, the weapon will break.

Also, if the ranged touch attack to hit a target with the glob of Wyrm Spit hits, due to the nature of the substance, it is difficult for the target to remove the sticky glob and pouring water on it doesn't help. Immersion in water or pouring enough sand or dirt on it to smother it can end the effect, but the latter takes a full round action.

Also, can anyone think of a better name that Wyrm Spit? I'm okay with it, but I dunno.

Noctis Vigil
2012-07-30, 08:33 AM
OK, here's me logic behind them. If you don't like it still after I explain it, I'll change it.

Feats are limited. As far as it goes, most campaigns only go to level 20 tops. That means you have 7 free feats you can choose, total, for your whole career. Assuming you take Sustained Spit as your first level feat and Wyrm Weapon as your 3rd level feat, you can make a weapon that does 1d6 extra damage at 3rd level, assuming you don't mind paying 400 gold for masterwork. That's an average of between 3 and 4 damage added to your attack, or roughly 1 damage per 100 gold spent on the masterwork property, and two damage per feat you've taken. Further, it's elemental, meaning it can be stopped with a low level spell that will be available by the time the feat is. So while it's definitely nice, it certainly isn't broken. As for Sustained Spit, it's blocked just as easily because it's only 1d6 a round. Now, if it was a feat that increased the damage of your spit by 1d6 every time you took it, then I could understand it, but making it last longer really won't have much effect by level 5 or so. (Which reminds me: you currently have no listed way of removing the spit once it contacts a foe. Most abilities let you take a round or something to scrape sticking attacks off. Was wondering if that was intentional. EDIT: LOL ninj'd) This also helps alleviate some of the issue combat classes have of being totally shut down if a dispel or AMF is thrown at them.

I also still intend to change these when you post the feat granting you more of your Wyrm Spit per day, making Sustained Spit require you have it at least once, so the earliest these weapons and armors will hit the market is level 6.

As for your idea of being able to make potions and such out of it, I like it. I will put some thought into that and write something up.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 08:46 AM
OK, here's me logic behind them. If you don't like it still after I explain it, I'll change it.

Feats are limited. As far as it goes, most campaigns only go to level 20 tops. That means you have 7 free feats you can choose, total, for your whole career. Assuming you take Sustained Spit as your first level feat and Wyrm Weapon as your 3rd level feat, you can make a weapon that does 1d6 extra damage at 3rd level, assuming you don't mind paying 400 gold for masterwork. That's an average of between 3 and 4 damage added to your attack, or roughly 1 damage per 100 gold spent on the masterwork property, and two damage per feat you've taken. Further, it's elemental, meaning it can be stopped with a low level spell that will be available by the time the feat is. So while it's definitely nice, it certainly isn't broken. As for Sustained Spit, it's blocked just as easily because it's only 1d6 a round. Now, if it was a feat that increased the damage of your spit by 1d6 every time you took it, then I could understand it, but making it last longer really won't have much effect by level 5 or so. (Which reminds me: you currently have no listed way of removing the spit once it contacts a foe. Most abilities let you take a round or something to scrape sticking attacks off. Was wondering if that was intentional. EDIT: LOL ninj'd) This also helps alleviate some of the issue combat classes have of being totally shut down if a dispel or AMF is thrown at them.

I also still intend to change these when you post the feat granting you more of your Wyrm Spit per day, making Sustained Spit require you have it at least once, so the earliest these weapons and armors will hit the market is level 6.

As for your idea of being able to make potions and such out of it, I like it. I will put some thought into that and write something up.

Well, I get where you're coming from. But maybe we could do something to make the weapon and armor slightly different? I dunno what, just maybe something to make them feel a little more unique? If not, it's cool, just a line of thought I would like to follow.

PaintByBlood
2012-07-30, 08:50 AM
If nothing else, I would push to at least shorten the Darkvision to 30ft., if it must be there. It could scale too, but do keep in mind that too many scaling things is still going to up the appropriate LA, and that this is only a race. Though really, seeing in the dark doesn't have to be seeing in pitch dark! Low light vision isn't something to turn your nose up at.
Also, that spit mechanic of weakening the weapon, something like it needs to be there, but the cumulative numbers could make the race less desirable due to bookkeeping.

Anyway, to add thoughts:
Elemental Spit sounds prettier to me.
For an elemental resistance progression, I'd do perhaps 1/2 per character level. Never something gamechanging, but still a nice little addition to flavor, and it could always end up coming in handy when things get close. I think that works a little better than a constant 5 (or other value), that would make it perhaps too strong in some lower-level encounters that are just then getting elements involved, but much less noticable at higher levels. Though that might just be me.
And I'd definitely scale the spit, myself.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 09:05 AM
If nothing else, I would push to at least shorten the Darkvision to 30ft., if it must be there. It could scale too, but do keep in mind that too many scaling things is still going to up the appropriate LA, and that this is only a race. Though really, seeing in the dark doesn't have to be seeing in pitch dark! Low light vision isn't something to turn your nose up at.
Also, that spit mechanic of weakening the weapon, something like it needs to be there, but the cumulative numbers could make the race less desirable due to bookkeeping.

Anyway, to add thoughts:
Elemental Spit sounds prettier to me.
For an elemental resistance progression, I'd do perhaps 1/2 per character level. Never something gamechanging, but still a nice little addition to flavor, and it could always end up coming in handy when things get close. I think that works a little better than a constant 5 (or other value), that would make it perhaps too strong in some lower-level encounters that are just then getting elements involved, but much less noticable at higher levels. Though that might just be me.
And I'd definitely scale the spit, myself.

To be completely honest, I think I never really very clearly looked up the rules on low-light vision. I think somewhere in my early career, the DM, used to his normal players and their BS, did something to really screw with the party where low-light vision was concerned and I decided not to bother with it. I always got the impression it was somewhat vague and due to DMing style, it seemed like something that wouldn't come in handy because the DM wouldn't want it to come in handy. Which kind of makes my DMs sound a lot worse than they were, but they could be vindictive sometimes and they would sometimes use cheap tricks.

And should the weapon just be ruined outright then? Or just have like three uses after the spit loses potency?

By 1/2 per level, you mean like...at level two, resistance 1, at level four, resistance 2? I briefly considered calling it Spitfire (Spitfrost, Spitshock, and...I dunno, Spitmelt?) but I'm not sure.

When you say you would scale the spit, do you mean scale the distance of the spit? Or scale other factors of it?

PaintByBlood
2012-07-30, 09:27 AM
Low-light vision basically doubles the power of light sources around the character, as far as that character is concerned. A light with 30ft. illumination and 30 feet more of shadowy becomes 60 feet of illumination with 60 more feet of shadowy. If I remember right.
It doesn't help you if there is no light at all, but really the DM ought to be able to make use of that, in my mind. Even if he does it poorly (everyone has to learn sometime, after all).

I think spit destroying the weapon entirely wouldn't be the way to go, because then it would be far less desirable. I'm not certain what would be the right choice, I just feel that extra bookkeeping should always be done with great caution. Perhaps a 20% chance of the item being ruined after the spit has been used up?

For the resistance, yes. One at level 2, two at level 4, three at level 6, etcetera.

And yes, I meant the distance it could be launched. 5ft. per level seems reasonable to me. I wouldn't increase the number of times it could be used per day, barring a feat perhaps, and I would leave the damage Con based as you had it.
Or switch them around maybe - base the distance off of constitution, and the rounds it lasts by level. Either way.

Oh, and I think I'll stick behind Elemental Spit. Nothing fancy, but it doesn't sound bad either.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-30, 09:36 AM
I think he means scale the damage, something that I agree with. Perhaps it increases by 1d6 per three levels, meaning that by ECL 20, Wyrm Spit does 7d6 damage.

Once per day is a little, draconian, if you'll excuse the pun, perhaps something less limiting, like once per hour. You will still have to think tactically about using it, but it won't make it a "last resort" weapon.

On the resistance, yes, that's what he meant. Another way of putting it is 1 per two character levels. 1 per character level would be slightly more useful, I think.

PaintByBlood
2012-07-30, 09:52 AM
I think he means scale the damage, something that I agree with. Perhaps it increases by 1d6 per three levels, meaning that by ECL 20, Wyrm Spit does 7d6 damage.

Once per day is a little, draconian, if you'll excuse the pun, perhaps something less limiting, like once per hour. You will still have to think tactically about using it, but it won't make it a "last resort" weapon.

On the resistance, yes, that's what he meant. Another way of putting it is 1 per two character levels. 1 per character level would be slightly more useful, I think.
The damage is already getting scaled by Con (I think), since the spit lasts more rounds due to Con, and I assume does damage each round. Otherwise, I would have said exactly that, yes.

Once per day isn't wonderful, yes, but it fits in better with how Core does it (which is what I think Homebrewers should target, myself). Also, once per day is what half-dragons get, so it would be a little rude for a lower LA based on the same concept to get something better.

And yes, 1/level elemental resistance would be more useful, but at that point you are absolutely pushing the LA +1.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 10:04 AM
Low-light vision basically doubles the power of light sources around the character, as far as that character is concerned. A light with 30ft. illumination and 30 feet more of shadowy becomes 60 feet of illumination with 60 more feet of shadowy. If I remember right.
It doesn't help you if there is no light at all, but really the DM ought to be able to make use of that, in my mind. Even if he does it poorly (everyone has to learn sometime, after all).

I think spit destroying the weapon entirely wouldn't be the way to go, because then it would be far less desirable. I'm not certain what would be the right choice, I just feel that extra bookkeeping should always be done with great caution. Perhaps a 20% chance of the item being ruined after the spit has been used up?

For the resistance, yes. One at level 2, two at level 4, three at level 6, etcetera.

And yes, I meant the distance it could be launched. 5ft. per level seems reasonable to me. I wouldn't increase the number of times it could be used per day, barring a feat perhaps, and I would leave the damage Con based as you had it.
Or switch them around maybe - base the distance off of constitution, and the rounds it lasts by level. Either way.

Oh, and I think I'll stick behind Elemental Spit. Nothing fancy, but it doesn't sound bad either.

Well, I'm not saying like I forgot to say that I lit a torch so he wouldn't let me have a torch out. I'm not talking about a DM using it, I'm talking about a DM that's a little blood thirsty and because I didn't say every little thing I was doing with the torch or if I had low light vision, but didn't remind him or say specifically that I was bothering to look around like anyone would instead of just looking at the path in front of my feet like he assumed, that means the gnolls in the cave who all had darkvision were able to sneak up on us, even though I should have seen them from like seventy feet away. These DMs would be abusing it.

Well, I was just trying to come up with something that would make sense. I've never done this sort of thing before and I'm really starting to remember why I didn't go farther with it when I tried years ago. Less bookkeeping. Gotcha.

I picked resistance 5 arbitrarily because I was looking at Planetouched a lot when writing it. 1 per two levels makes sense.

I'm definitely going to have it once per day but more with a feat. I'm a fan of those kinds of things. And 5 feet per level sounds good, cause honestly when I play it, I'm probably mostly going to use it on my weapons :P

I suppose elemental spit sounds good. It's just sort of a pain, cause breath weapon sounds so cool to me, and then there's this, which is just...spit, you know? But yeah, it sounds fine.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 10:12 AM
I think he means scale the damage, something that I agree with. Perhaps it increases by 1d6 per three levels, meaning that by ECL 20, Wyrm Spit does 7d6 damage.

Once per day is a little, draconian, if you'll excuse the pun, perhaps something less limiting, like once per hour. You will still have to think tactically about using it, but it won't make it a "last resort" weapon.



I wasn't going to have the damage scale because it does damage for a number of turns. An ECL 20 Wyrm-Blood would have a Con modifier of like +6 with items, so over the course of six rounds, someone hit with the glob of spit would take 42d6 damage if they didn't do anything to remove the spit. That wasn't really what I was going for.

And it's...kind of a draconian race. Dragonblood and everything. I wanted to make something new, but still tied to the origin. Unless you mean something else by draconian.

PaintByBlood
2012-07-30, 10:15 AM
I suppose elemental spit sounds good. It's just sort of a pain, cause breath weapon sounds so cool to me, and then there's this, which is just...spit, you know? But yeah, it sounds fine.
I understand, definitely. It's hard to make spit-/lugie-/glob-anything sound very cool though, I think...
And Spitfire is just unfortunately specific, where it kind of ought to be general.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-30, 10:19 AM
True, half-dragons do only get it once per day, but there is a feat (That can be taken at level 1!) that lets them use it every few rounds. And honestly, if you are playing as a half-dragon and you don't take the feat, you deserve what you get. Like a Dread Necromancer that doesn't take Tomb Tainted Soul.

Don't forget to take into account that a half dragon's breath attack is 6d8 right from the outset. Weaker, but more often, isn't that rude, really. If, and only if, the Wyrm-Blood fights constantly for nine hours or more a day, then the Wyrm-Blood has done more damage than the Half-Dragon (Without the feat) can deal.


EDIT: "Draconian", IRL, means something that is highly restrictive, like a draconian internet policy, or draconian library rules.


Ah, that makes a lot more sense now, it's a DOT, rather than straight up damage. Perhaps 1d6 per five levels, meaning 4d6 by ECL 20.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 11:05 AM
I'll give it more thought.

Noctis Vigil
2012-07-30, 02:34 PM
An ECL 20 Wyrm-Blood would have a Con modifier of like +6 with items

Not to be rude and begging your pardon, but if he even tries to focus on Con he can have twice this at level 20 easily. I was basing all my numbers off an average of about 8 rounds at high levels. I mean, you can have 5 rounds at level 1 with this guy (18 Con +2 racial). If you take Barbarian, you get Rage, which nets you another +4 to +6 Con. Add in a Ring of Constitution for +6 Con, add in a permanent +5 Con from magic sources, add in, oh, +3 from levels. So 20 base +6 Rage +6 ring +5 magic +3 levels = Con 40, or 15 rounds at level 20, almost 3 times your guess. And I didn't even optimize heavily, this is all off the top of my head. Either way, anyone even remotely Con based will have a pretty high Con mod to use with this at level 20.

For what it's worth, you could make a feat to improve the damage. Maybe from 1d6 to 2d6.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 05:22 PM
Not to be rude and begging your pardon, but if he even tries to focus on Con he can have twice this at level 20 easily. I was basing all my numbers off an average of about 8 rounds at high levels. I mean, you can have 5 rounds at level 1 with this guy (18 Con +2 racial). If you take Barbarian, you get Rage, which nets you another +4 to +6 Con. Add in a Ring of Constitution for +6 Con, add in a permanent +5 Con from magic sources, add in, oh, +3 from levels. So 20 base +6 Rage +6 ring +5 magic +3 levels = Con 40, or 15 rounds at level 20, almost 3 times your guess. And I didn't even optimize heavily, this is all off the top of my head. Either way, anyone even remotely Con based will have a pretty high Con mod to use with this at level 20.

For what it's worth, you could make a feat to improve the damage. Maybe from 1d6 to 2d6.

Well, I was thinking about how I would use it. And specifically how I would use it in RL play and not on here, which generally means I won't end up with quite so high of a Con. But that proves my point even more. If I had a Constitution score of 40, then at ECL 20, if I increased the damage that much, over the course of those fifteen rounds, I would d 105d6 damage. And with a feat allowing me to use it more often, I'd be able to do that to multiple targets.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-30, 05:25 PM
Which is why I said once per hour. You only get to use it on one target per encounter, but it doesn't force the player to save it for the most powerful encounter in a day.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-30, 05:44 PM
Which is why I said once per hour. You only get to use it on one target per encounter, but it doesn't force the player to save it for the most powerful encounter in a day.

The reason I didn't want to make it once per hour is that it felt kind of....Encounter Power-y to me, which I want to avoid.