[Pathfinder] OP Monk?

[Sophyt]

I am currently playing in a Kingmaker campaign of Pathfinder and my GM has, on more than one occasion, complained about my level 13 monk being too strong. This is strange to me since all I see online is how much the monk is underpowered and I was curious what other people think about it. His latest complaint was when I dealt 168 damage (no crits, 6 out of 7 attacks hit) to the huge sized wyvern in the module who then proceeded to miss me completely with all attacks (AC was 39 at the time).

Is this monk truly a good build? Or is he simply the victim of non-min/maxed party-mates and module level (underpowered) monsters making him seem that way?

Level 13 Dwarf Monk

Str 24
Dex 20
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 26
Cha 11

Spd: 60
Init: 7 = +5(Dex) +2(Reactionary)
Ki Pool: 16
Elemental Fist uses: 15

AC: 34 = +3(Armor) +5(Dex) +2(Deflection) +8(Wis) +4(Monk untyped bonus) +2(Insight)
Other AC Bonuses: +5(Barkskin) +4(Ki dodge bonus)
Situational AC bonuses: +4(Mobility); Defensive Training(Dwarf racial)

Touch: 31
Flat-Foot: 29

Fort: 14 = +8(Base) +4(Con) +2(Resist)
Ref: 15 = +8(Base) +5(Dex) +2(Resist)
Will: 18 = +8(Base) +8(Wis) +2(Resist)
Save Bonuses: +2 vs. Spells, SLAs, poison, illusion

Resists: Acid 13

CMB: 20
CMD: 47(!) = +9(BAB) +7(Str) +5(Dex) +8(Wis) +4(Monk untyped bonus) +2(Insight) +2(Deflection)
Situational bonus: Stability(Dwarf)

Attacks:
Base Melee: +19/+14(Power Attack -3)
Flurry: +21/+21/+16/+16/+11(Power Attack -3)
Ranged(Scorching Ray): +14
Ranged(Shuriken): +16
Situational bonus: Hatred(Dwarf)

Extra Attacks:
Haste(usually up) +1
Ki +1
Medusa's Wrath(Elemental Fist hits can trigger) +2

Possible Power Attack Flurry(Cleric loves to put up bless/prayer and I flank with our magus):
+23/+23/+23(haste)/+23(ki)/+23(Medusa)/+23(Medusa)/+18/+18/+13
Damage: 2d8 +17 melee per hit, 3d6+8 acid + save-or-stagger

Damage:
Unarmed Strike: 2d8+10(Power Attack +16)
Elemental Fist: 3d6 acid damage; +8 acid damage and target must make a DC 24 Reflex save or be staggered(Shaitan Skin)
Elemental Fist(miss): 1d6+8

Skills:
Acrobatics +16
Climb +16
Escape Artist +21
Knowledge(History) +9
Knowledge(Religion) +9
Perception +24
Stealth +21
Swim +16

Languages:
Common, Dwarven, Giant, Orc

Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Mobility
Deflect Arrows
Panther Style
Panther Claw
Combat Style Master
Shaitan Style
Shaitan Skin
Medusa's Wrath
Power Attack
Shaitan Earthblast

Class/Special Abilities: (Archetype abilities are followed by the replaced ability in parentheses)
Flurry of Blows
Elemental Fist (Stunning Fist)
Improved Evasion
Fast Movement
Maneuver Training
Ki Mystic(Still Mind)
Ki Pool
Barkskin(Slow Fall) cost 1 ki
Scorching Ray(High Jump) cost 2 ki
Mystic Insight(Purity of Body)
Wholeness of Body
Mystic Visions(Diamond Body)
Slow Time(Abundant Step)
Mystic Prescience(Diamond Soul)

Traits:
Reactionary
Skeptic

Archetypes:
Monk of the Four Winds
Ki Mystic
Quinggong Monk(Slow Fall, High Jump, Quivering Palm, Tongue of Sun and Moon)

Magic Equipment:
Head: none
Headband: Headband of Wis +6
Eyes: none
Shoulder: Cloak of Resist +2
Neck: Amulet of Mighty Fists +3
Armor: none
Chest: none
Body: Monk's Robe
Waist: Belt of Physical Might +4 Str/Dex
Wrist: Bracers of Armor +3
Hands: none
Ring: Ring of Protection +2/Invisibility
Ring: none
Feet: none
Weapons: none
Shield: none

Other Gear:
60 Shuriken(20 normal, 20 cold iron, 20 silvered)

A note on the Qiunggong Monk. I plan on taking Blood Crow Strike in place of Quivering Palm and Cold Ice Strike in place of Tongue of Sun and Moon when I reach those levels.

Blood Crow Strike (2 ki):
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-crow-strike
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none
Spell resistance yes

Your unarmed strikes release blasts of energy in the form of bolts of fire or glowing red crows, which fly instantaneously to strike your target. You can make unarmed strike or flurry of blows attacks against the target as if it were in your threatened area; each successful attack deals damage as if you had hit it with your unarmed strike, except half the damage is fire and half is negative energy (this negative energy does not heal undead). For example, if you are a 14th-level monk, you can use a flurry of blows to attack five times, creating one energy crow for each successful attack against the target, and dealing 2d6 points of damage (plus appropriate unarmed strike modifiers) with each crow.

Cold Ice Strike (3 ki):
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cold-ice-strike
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
Range 30 feet
Area 30-ft. line
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell resistance yes
You create a shredding flurry of ice slivers, which blast from your hand in a line. The line deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 15d6).

[Corlindale]

Doesn't seem OP to me. 168 damage is very reasonable at that level with a lucky round of hits (and haste never hurts either). Our group has certainly seen numbers in that area on both the barbarian and the paladin (neither of which are heavily optimized), and we're not level 13 yet.

With those ability scores it does looks like you've had a very generous point buy, though (or alternativly just a ton of money for magic items) - monks may benefit more than others from that, because they use many stats. But the GM generally shouldn't be surprised that the PCs get a bit more powerful if he uses such generous stat-generation.

[Drelua]

This really doesn't seem very powerful to me. I mean, for one thing you wasted feats by taking 2 different styles without any way to use both at once. It's probably a combination of a very low optimization party and the buffs giving you all the glory. I don't think you'd be nearly as deadly without the cleric, though you'd still probably be fairly hard to kill.

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention; when you get Blood Crow Strike, take Quicken Spell-Like Ability for two full attacks in a round, one at range. Then your DM should have reason to complain. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Well . . . what is everyone else playing?
OP is hard to define in a vacuum.

[agentnone]

How is it you're taking more than one archetype? I was under the impression you can only take one.

[Corlindale]

How is it you're taking more than one archetype? I was under the impression you can only take one.

You can take as many archetypes as you want, as long as they don't overlap (though it's hard to achieve more than 2-3 in practice). And quingong monk stacks with every other archetype out there.

[Firest Kathon]

How is it you're taking more than one archetype? I was under the impression you can only take one.


A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/class-archetypes

[Keneth]

I don't see how this is overpowered in the least considering your ability scores. 168 damage in 6 hits is 28 damage per hit which is decent for a monk and something that any decent warrior-type should be able to more than match at that level. In fact, the magus should be matching that damage a lot more consistently than you with a monk. You got lucky and hit with most of your attacks which is rare at best for a monk against level-appropriate opponents, but a wyvern that gets into melee range (even a huge one) shouldn't pose any problems. Then again, a huge wyvern has reach, so if it was in range of your fists, it's completely the GM's fault.

[Sophyt]

. . . Then again, a huge wyvern has reach, so if it was in range of your fists, it's completely the GM's fault.

it had Scent but ring of invis means concealment and no AoOs, not that it could have hit me anyways, would have had a 43 AC vs the AoO :) and i seem to be just fine for hitting things, part of the reason i wasnt too worried about upgrading my amulet


With those ability scores it does looks like you've had a very generous point buy

we have the option of rolling our stats, so it really is his own fault lol


Well . . . what is everyone else playing?
OP is hard to define in a vacuum.

we have a cleric, a magus and me, we used to have a sorc but the player had to drop out of the game, now we have an alchemist i think, cleric player plays both


...for one thing you wasted feats by taking 2 different styles without any way to use both at once...

i was asked to build a melee character that can take a hit, i wanted the mobility granted by panther, its really fun to run through 8 enemies and punch them all in the face then deck one with a shaitan style elemental fist when im done (combat style master lets me switch as a free action)



ok so what im getting from this thread is that hes average strength which is more than i hoped considering all the hate they get lol

i'll chalk it up to the underpowered module creatures and the way kingmaker does its "one encounter a day thing" even if i never spend more than a couple ki i suppose

thanks for all the fast replies and if you guys think of any more awesome ways to improve him lemme know!

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention; when you get Blood Crow Strike, take Quicken Spell-Like Ability for two full attacks in a round, one at range. Then your DM should have reason to complain.:smallbiggrin:
he may actually cry if i did that :smallbiggrin:
EDIT: just looked it up, i dont think he would let me have a monster feat:smalltongue:

[Andvare]

The hate monks get is mostly reserved to D&D 3.X.
Monks have been buffed quite a bit in Pathfinder.

[Keneth]

[...]and i seem to be just fine for hitting things[...]
If you don't have any trouble hitting things, then your GM is not giving you a decent challenge.


just looked it up, i dont think he would let me have a monster feat:smalltongue:
While it's classified as such, players who meet the prerequisites can still take them. Besides, quicken SLA hasn't really been a monster feat in years, not since the Warlock was released in 3.5, if not sooner.

[Drelua]

i was asked to build a melee character that can take a hit, i wanted the mobility granted by panther, its really fun to run through 8 enemies and punch them all in the face then deck one with a shaitan style elemental fist when im done (combat style master lets me switch as a free action)

Yes, it can be useful, and there's certainly nothing wrong with taking both. I only mean that it probably wasn't the most optimal choice. Then again, I guess Combat Style Master let's you use both to their full effect.

It was only meant as an example of how your character could be more optimized. I should have said that if it was really optimal, you'd have about half that much charisma. :smallbiggrin:

I'm also not so sure about you choice of archetypes. I mean, Qinggong (that most often, and least surprisingly misspelled of archetypes:smallbiggrin:) is a given for any monk that isn't a Martial Artist, but MotFW and Ki Mystic aren't looking very good to me, though I could be wrong. Again, I'm not saying you did anything wrong, just that this character doesn't look very powerful and you therefore have nothing to feel guilty about. :smallwink:


he may actually cry if i did that :smallbiggrin:
EDIT: just looked it up, i dont think he would let me have a monster feat:smalltongue:

There's no reason you couldn't take a monster feat as a PC. There is, however, an entirely different problem; Quicken SLA only works on spells with a casting time of one full round, and blood crow strike takes one round. I'm not sure, but that may mean this particular combo doesn't work. Darn, I never got a chance to use that. :smallfrown:

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it's just a low op party making you look good. A magus should be able to do at least as much damage as you, and have a higher AC thanks to heavy armour.

[Eldariel]

The hate monks get is mostly reserved to D&D 3.X.
Monks have been buffed quite a bit in Pathfinder.

The important part here is that he's a Qinggong Monk which is acknowledged as a powerful variant losing stupid **** from the class and gaining the exact thing Monk misses; magic. I'd say this is a tier 3 character.

Monk Melee Ability isn't actually horrid in PF since Flurry uses full BAB so in that sense they're close to the same line as Fighters and Barbarians provided they have means to full attack reliably (not trivial, unfortunately). Add some magic and you have a very solid Duskblade-esque class.


So yeah, it's partly thanks to PF Buffs that a Monk can be non-terrible, but the big advantages here are the archetypes and the point buy/rolls. Excellent rolls really help a Monk out and PF Monk can compete with other melee with good rolls and high damage can scare inexperienced DMs. Many DMs go to high levels with the mistaken expectations that since everything has more HP, fights would last longer. This isn't really true; damage scales just the same. The fights are just more varied and strategic since everybody has more options.

[Volos]

You should consider your DM's position in all of this. He/she may not be able to handle the current power level of your monk either because of his/her inexperience or the module he/she is using. Your Monk build is far from OP though, you could have very easily been dealing 50 or more damage minimum a hit at your level (not to mention the stacks of conditions you could be tossing out at them on top of such damage potential). Suggest to your DM to throw challenges at you that your class is not designed to overcome. A mage with the proper protection or illusions can easily stump a melee class and make a fight very interesting. Or a swarm of enemies that outlast your onslaught of attacks. Perhaps a challenge that is not determined simply by death of the foe, but by defeating them in a timely and perhaps even non-leathal manner to save an objective from their evil mechanations. He/she may be running a module, but they can add twists as they see fit.

[Larpus]

Indeed, I agree with everyone else that your numbers seem average...can't really think of any reason the Magus (or even the Cleric and Alchemist, supposing they're focused on damage) think your damage was "too big", especially on a "lucky hit".

If anything, your AC is indeed pretty high and I can totally see that creating frustrating situations for the others, especially the DM who is most probably always trying to make some maneuver or attack at you only to miss pathetically.

Add to that your all good saves plus high scores and, from the DM standpoint, you're most probably looking like a diamond that can't be attacked at all; but that's actually his fault for not really thinking outside the box.

Out of curiosity, do you guys play using a grid?

I've found that "just numbers" tend to be considerably stronger in games where there's no grid since it allows for little to no strategic positioning and the such.

[Keneth]

I've found that "just numbers" tend to be considerably stronger in games where there's no grid since it allows for little to no strategic positioning and the such.
Why would lack of grid affect strategic positioning?

[Talentless]

Probably just a module mismatch.

The Pathfinder Adventure Paths are designed around the Pathfinder 15 point buy method (15 points, stats start at 10). Any time stats go above that average, all encounters need to be adjusted accordingly.

Second, optimization levels is another factor that should have some encounter difficulty adjustment, low op might leave it where it is statted out even with higher stats, high op should have it adjusted way upwards, even if they still use the 15 point buy.

Really, it is the rolled stats compared to what the Adventure Path was designed for that seems to be the biggest "offender" that is causing your DM headaches.

But it really doesn't seem like that big a deal to me anyways. :smallwink:

[Big Fau]

Why would lack of grid affect strategic positioning?

No grid means it's harder to keep track of distances, environment, and other factors that interfere with mobility and positioning. It's really a hit-or-miss thing, since those same screw-ups can hamper a noncaster far more than a caster.

[Larpus]

No grid means it's harder to keep track of distances, environment, and other factors that interfere with mobility and positioning. It's really a hit-or-miss thing, since those same screw-ups can hamper a noncaster far more than a caster.
Exactly.

Others' experience may vary, but mine is that in a grid-less game, the enemies rarely move (or if they move, they're fleeing and due to vagueness it's hard/impossible to catch them), there's hardly cover to be considered an there's hardly any sort of difficult terrain.

Meaning that things that aren't usually as numeric and/or binary in nature, suddenly becomes so.

Flight is that much more powerful when, due to no grid and as a result no effort given for how the battle will happen from a tactical movement standpoint, there will be no trees for the fighter to climb and attempt to jump onto the creature (or there are, but the DM forgot to mention and the thought didn't cross the player's mind, since he's not seeing that there is a tree to consider in his strategy).

Creatures that depend on positioning are that much weaker when the cover, terrain, hazard or whatever they need to function is either not there (or not mentioned to be there) or are at a cryptic location (meaning you just don't know if you can reach it in a move action or not, and even though you can ask, I've seen people refrain from that to not delay combat too much), so a character that is numerically stronger but tactically weaker will get the upper hand as it makes little to no difference what the layout looks like to him.

[Raoul Duke]

I would do the Sohei monk variant from Ultimate Combat to get around some of the monk weaknesses, it allows you to wear Light Armor and Flurry with Weapon Groups. I'd go with Polearms and Bows. You're versatile, and get around issues with unarmed strike and Mighty Fang Amulet costs.

Use a Glaive and a Mighty Composite Longbow, or a Ranseur if you want to trip. You threaten at reach with the polearm, and close in with unarmed strike. Go with Fighter weapon groups Polearms, Bows, and Unarmed Strike, in that order.
Human Sohei Monk
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
1 Toughness
1 Point Blank Shot
B1 Combat Reflexes
B2 Dodge
3 Weapon Focus: Glaive or Ranseur
5 Precise Shot
B6 Improved Trip or Improved Disarm
7 Power Attack
9 Vital Strike
B10 Spring Attack
11 Improved Critical: Glaive or Ranseur
13 Rapid Shot
15 Improved Vital Strike
B16 Improved Trip or Improved Disarm

[Keneth]

Others' experience may vary
The important part. :smallbiggrin: We've played several games gridless and didn't really have any trouble with tactical positioning. We use plastic-laminated paper (blank, square gird, an hex grid) with markers however, so it's always kinda vague but we can draw stuff that we need on the spot. Handling any kind of advanced flying movements without a grid is a pain though, since you can't leave tokens/figurines hanging in the air. Someone needs to design localized antigravitation devices and holograms so we can start tabletop roleplaying in 3D. :smallbiggrin:


(I can't bloody remember the word for laminating paper with plastic, don't you hate it when that happens? :smallmad:)

[The Redwolf]

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention; when you get Blood Crow Strike, take Quicken Spell-Like Ability for two full attacks in a round, one at range. Then your DM should have reason to complain. :smallbiggrin:

How exactly would a monk go about getting that? I just looked it up and would like it for mine very much, but it says it's a cleric/oracle spell.

Edit: Nevermind, from Quinggong Monk, I see now. So could you use that with the extra standard actions granted from the Monk of the Four Winds archetype, because that's the one I'll be using for my monk soon and it seems useful.

[Sophyt]

. . .So could you use that with the extra standard actions granted from the Monk of the Four Winds archetype, because that's the one I'll be using for my monk soon and it seems useful.

unfortunately the Slow Time ability doesnt let you use spells/SLAs or make full attack actions with the actions it provides, its not as good as it first seems

[The Redwolf]

unfortunately the Slow Time ability doesnt let you use spells/SLAs or make full attack actions with the actions it provides, its not as good as it first seems

Well, it says you can't combine them for a full attack, you can still make a full attack and have two actions left, and it allows you to use extraordinary abilities, wouldn't activating a ki ability count as extraordinary rather than spell-like?

[Sophyt]

from the SRD:


Spells: These ki powers duplicate the effects of a spell, and are spell-like abilities. A qinggong monk’s class level is the caster level for these spell-like abilities, and she uses Wisdom to determine her concentration check bonus.

and the wording of Slow Time says it replaces your normal standard with 3, and that you cant combine those to get a full attack action, so it reads to me that you cant make a full attack while using Slow Time


Slow Time: At 12th level, a monk of the four winds can use his ki to slow time or quicken his movements, depending on the observer. As a swift action, the monk can expend 6 ki points to gain three standard actions during his turn instead of just one. The monk can use these actions to do the following: take a melee attack action, use a skill, use an extraordinary ability, or take a move action. The monk cannot use these actions to cast spells or use spell-like abilities, and cannot combine them to take full-attack actions. Any move actions the monk makes this turn do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

[The Redwolf]

from the SRD:



and the wording of Slow Time says it replaces your normal standard with 3, and that you cant combine those to get a full attack action, so it reads to me that you cant make a full attack while using Slow Time

Right, but for a full attack you use a move and standard action, and you can use those three as any, but you still have your original move action, so to me it's saying you can't take a standard and move with those for an extra full attack, like you can't combine those three to get a full attack, but if you use one and your original move action you should be fine.

[deuxhero]

Probably just a module mismatch.

The Pathfinder Adventure Paths are designed around the Pathfinder 15 point buy method (15 points, stats start at 10). Any time stats go above that average, all encounters need to be adjusted accordingly.



Isn't it 20?

[Keneth]

Right, but for a full attack you use a move and standard action, and you can use those three as any, but you still have your original move action, so to me it's saying you can't take a standard and move with those for an extra full attack, like you can't combine those three to get a full attack, but if you use one and your original move action you should be fine.
Actually, you use a full-round action to make a full attack, not a standard + move action. There's a distinction. A full-round action requires an entire round to complete, it's not exactly the same as combining one standard and one move action (but roughly so).


Isn't it 20?
Standard fantasy is 15 points.

[killianh]

by the standards found around here: not OP. But depending on the standards of your group or DM it might be too much. I remember having a dex-fighter tripper. 5 AoOs available a round, and trip & hit each AoO (exceedingly basic tripper setup) and he was deemed OP because he meant that nothing in a 10' radius of me could really do much without getting tripped and smacked. Sometimes be OP just means you're outshining the party, other times its that the DM can't handle the tactic or create a balance

[Wonton]

As people have said, OP is relative. A core-only Fighter could probably seem OP in certain groups.

[Andvare]

Isn't it 20?

Pathfinder Society Organized Play is 20.

[Baron Malkar]

when you get to 17th level and have pounce look out for getting 3 partial charges per round.:smalltongue:

[Sophyt]

i dont actually get Pounce sadly, i just get to charge once an hour and act as if i had it, still nice, but not nearly as awesome:smallbiggrin:

[bug]

I don't know why I felt compelled to respond to this, but...


Right, but for a full attack you use a move and standard action, and you can use those three as any, but you still have your original move action, so to me it's saying you can't take a standard and move with those for an extra full attack, like you can't combine those three to get a full attack, but if you use one and your original move action you should be fine.

Let's say you convince a GM that this isn't a mockery of logic. What would you be gaining ? You can still only cast a quickened 1-round SLA twice: once as a swift action, and once as a full-round action, just like you could normally. Seems like a lot of semantic acrobatics for 6 wasted ki.

[khachaturian]

so factoring in the +4 str/dex item and +6 wis item. +3 from leveling up. +2 con/wis and -2 cha from dwarfiness.

this sounds like a ***58 point buy build***!!! what sort of character generation system did you use? one of the reasons monks are considered suboptimal is the degree of MAD. if your DM is allowing this, i don't think he can complain about anything being overpowered.