[PF] - Pally Trying to Get Stoned

[Gorfnod]

I am looking to help a new player decide on some feats but as I have little experience with paladins I figured that I would come to the playground.

The character is using the relatively new stonelord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/dwarf/stonelord-paladin-dwarf) paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) archetype in a pathfinder only game. He is set on using a one-handed weapon and a shield, defensively only, but other than that the character is open to any suggestions.

He envisions himself as a tank, think MMORPGs, in a game where I have explained that "aggrozz" don't exist. Something that helps with this would be beneficial though.

He also likes the idea of using bludgeoning weapons and is probably going to go with warhammer unless he comes across a one-hander that he likes better. I know that 3.5 had a number of feats centered around specific weapons and weapon groups, so anything like this in pathfinder would also be interesting.

I also would like to know what feats in particular work well with defensive stance. I have explained to him that he can negate the penalties and still move using a combination of lay on hands with a mercy upgrade but he still seems set on being an unmovable object. Some ideas on feats that work well with this would be great.

Pretty much if you have any experience with paladins, stalwart defenders, or stonelords for the short time they have been out, I would love to hear what you have to say.

[Ziegander]

Wow! They managed to take one of the only good things they designed for Pathfinder, the core Paladin, and monumentally wreck it with this archetype. Stonelord Paladin is one of the weakest classes I've ever seen. The DR and natural armor bonus is nice and the only good class feature (Stoneblood could have been good if it hadn't replaced so many mercies). But the Defensive Stance and Defensive Powers taking the place of ALL spellcasting? That's just pathetically bad. Stone Strike and all related abilities? Holy crap, they totally suck!

My advice is to tell him that he really, really shouldn't play with this archetype. If he insists, ask him what it is he likes about it. If it's the DR and Defensive Stance, let him have just those abilities without trading all of his spellcasting. For the uses of Defensive Stance per day and the Defensive Powers, just have him lose a spell slot per day of each spell level. That's almost certainly more than a fair trade.

[Gorfnod]

Wow! They managed to take one of the only good things they designed for Pathfinder, the core Paladin, and monumentally wreck it with this archetype.

I am a little surprised by this. I haven't really looked at either the core paladin or the archetype very in-depth but I have seen numerous people praising the Stonelord as one of the if not the best archetypes in the ARG.

I will add that the player is not interested in spellcasting but I may steer him in a different direction if it is really as bad as you say.

[grarrrg]

It isn't really that bad.
It might be worse off than a 'normal' Paladin, but not by much.

Also, keep in mind that Dwarves have a penalty to CHA and Paladins really like CHA, so trading away some of the more CHA dependent features is sort of helpful.

Stonestrike is back to working more like the 'Old' Smite Evil, you get the bonus for 1 round and it's gone.
BUT you can use it a number of times per day equal to your Paladin level, your opponent can be anything, it doesn't need to be evil. And you can get a CMD bonus as well. And the damage counts as Adamantine/Magical, making it easier to cut through opponent's DR.
Overall weaker, but still useable.

Heartstone (lose Divine Grace): The Natural Armor bonus is small, but helpful, and the DR is VERY nice. Granted, you are vulnerable to Adamantine, but it scales at half level, which is only matched by 1 other class/archetype (Barbarian/Invulnerable Rager). Overall it's a fair trade.

StoneBlood (lose 3 Mercies): I'm of the camp that says Mercies aren't all that great. Useful at time yes, but overall, I can do without them.
Gaining Immunity to Sneak/Crits though IS nice, and combined with the DR from Heartstone you can make quite the Tank.
At worst I say it's a fair trade.

Earth Channel: In the right campaign, it has potential, in most campaigns it will be worthless and you'll only ever use it on your...

Stone Servant: Lose a Mount, gain a Rock/Guy. Roughly scales at the same rate as a Mount would, still gains the Celestial Template.
Probably a slightly weaker trade as the Celestial granted DR is outclassed by the Elemental's Natural DR.

As for Casting replaced by Defensive Stance. I agree, it's a weaker trade. But from a 'Tank' perspective (which is what this Archetype is), it's a fair trade, there are some nice abilities you can pick up, the lack of mobility sucks, but at least your Full Paladin levels counts towards the rounds/day you can use it.

Phase Strike you can spend 2 of your Stonestrike uses to ignore an enemies AC bonus from Armor/Shields (must be stone/metal), and you can ignore all but total cover.


End result, I see it as a slightly weaker trade, but very flavorful.

[jaybird]

Point him at Antagonize for drawing aggro, then outfit him with a reach weapon and a way of making tons of AoOs and making them hurt. There's your MMO tank.

[Ziegander]

BUT you can use it a number of times per day equal to your Paladin level[...]

Ah. THIS I missed. That makes it (and the associated abilities) much more bearable.


Heartstone (lose Divine Grace): The Natural Armor bonus is small, but helpful, and the DR is VERY nice. Granted, you are vulnerable to Adamantine, but it scales at half level, which is only matched by 1 other class/archetype (Barbarian/Invulnerable Rager). Overall it's a fair trade.

I agree.


StoneBlood (lose 3 Mercies): I'm of the camp that says Mercies aren't all that great. Useful at time yes, but overall, I can do without them.
Gaining Immunity to Sneak/Crits though IS nice, and combined with the DR from Heartstone you can make quite the Tank.
At worst I say it's a fair trade.

Not to say it's an awful trade, but you give up condition removal as well as immunity to disease for it. I would much rather use my mercies to negate conditions and save my spells for combat awesomeness/utility, but this archetype drastically limits the mercies and loses spells entirely. OUCH.


Earth Channel: In the right campaign, it has potential, in most campaigns it will be worthless and you'll only ever use it on your...

Stone Servant: Lose a Mount, gain a Rock/Guy. Roughly scales at the same rate as a Mount would, still gains the Celestial Template.
Probably a slightly weaker trade as the Celestial granted DR is outclassed by the Elemental's Natural DR.

Agreed.


As for Casting replaced by Defensive Stance. I agree, it's a weaker trade. But from a 'Tank' perspective (which is what this Archetype is), it's a fair trade, there are some nice abilities you can pick up, the lack of mobility sucks, but at least your Full Paladin levels counts towards the rounds/day you can use it.

It's a vastly weaker trade power-wise, and harshly option-limiting utilitarian-wise.


End result, I see it as a slightly weaker trade, but very flavorful.

With Stone Strike being usable 1/day per Paladin level, that makes the whole variant a bit stronger than I initially appraised it, but I still say it gives up far too much (in raw power as well as versatility) for abilities that are far too narrow.

I think it's a great idea, but with some shoddy execution.

[ericgrau]

It seems to be a decent variant. That's a huge amount of DR and AC. Defensive stance would work better with a reach weapon though, half the time he's better off not using it. He may want roused defense as his 8th level stance power so he can stop and start it again. Even before that point he can at least stop when needed or ignore the ability. An alternate way to get reach is potions of enlarge person. There's some AC lost, but he can afford that. He'll also block more corridor. Plus gigantic dwarves are awesome. You may hear him say "for Kazmodan!"

He can still do some reasonable tanking inside dungeons, especially with the standstill feat. Even without reach I've seen it done well. Heck even without standstill in a tight dungeon it's pretty easy. Wilderness less so. You're the DM so you know the campaign best. If you're doing lots of dungeon crawls I wouldn't discourage him from doing what he wants. It should at least hit par if not work extremely well under the right circumstances, i.e. tight spaces. All he really has to do is stand in front and the attack of opportunity + loss of enemy full attack + short D&D combats (1 round is a long time) does the rest. It's a huge cost to ignore the guy in front even without aggro.

Do explain to him that even with a shield and that variant he's still one of the biggest damage dealers, unlike WoW. Strength is important. That said, with a shield and mild optimization he's probably only getting hit on a 16; 4 away from 20. An additional cheap +1 here and there and he can become almost unhittable. Just as long as he doesn't neglect things like damage, enlarge person and standstill, or similar options.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I've actually been looking into how to turn the Stonelord into an effective tank myself, as I plan on playing one in an upcoming game. I've found that there's quite a few options available, but you'll wind up having too few feats to pick them all. You also have to keep in mind that you're going to have to really spread out your attribute points, so this is not a build for somebody focused on optimization. Anyway, here's my input:

Stonelord Abilities to Keep in Mind

1) Stone Strike - This boosts Attack, Damage and CMB. It boosts your CMD when you're touching the ground or stone. Your attacks ignore most DRs and Hardness up to twice your level. At level 12 you can spend two uses to ignore anything less than Total Cover as well as AC bonuses from metal/stone armor and shields. It is a swift action to use.

2) You will gain a single mercy, but you can pick Fatigue as a mercy. Using Lay on Hands on yourself is a swift action, and entering or exiting Defensive Stance is a free action. This actually lets you stat somewhat mobile on the battlefield.

3) Your Stone Servant Elemental replaces the mount companion. This means it acts as a permanent pet, but if it dies you have a significant penalty for 30 days at which point you can bond with a new one. You'll want to keep him protected at lower levels, but at higher levels he turns into a pretty effective tank on his own. Use him to help funnel enemies your way. You can also heal him with your Earth Channel if he nears death.

Feats & Feat Lines
Antagonize - Make a Diplomacy check to penalize an enemy when it attacks your allies or an Intimidate check to force it to attack you.

Combat Reflexes - Your Stone Strike lasts until the start of your next turn, Combat Reflexes and a high Dex score lets you extend your use of the ability. This is also a Prerequisite Feat for other feats.

Stand Still - Make an Attack of Opportunity (AoO) to root enemies attempting to move past or around you. Requires Combat Reflexes.

Steady Engagement - You get a free Disarm or Trip attempt when you succeed on a Stand still maneuver. Requires Combat Reflexes, Stand Still and that you worship Irori (often waived by GMs).

Combat Expertise - Subtract from your attacks to gain an AC bonus until your next turn. Pairs well with a Stand Still build, unlocks Improved combat maneuvers.

Improved Trip/Disarm/Sunder - Imp Trip & Disarm work well with the Stand Still build. Improved Sunder works great with Stone Strikes (which allows you to ignore hardness).

Power Attack - Gain a boost to damage, the Attack penalty is mostly negated by Stone Strike.

Intimidating Prowess - Add your Strength modifier when making Intimidate checks. Works well with an Antagonize build.

Cornugun Smash - Get a free Intimidate check when you hit with a Power Attack. Pick it up if you're going the Antagonize route.

Bodyguard - When an adjacent ally is attacked, use an AoO to boost his AC by 2. Requires Combat Reflexes.

In Harms Way - When using the Bodyguard feat, you can instead take the full damage. Your DR should still come into play.

Toughness - Extra HP. Grab it if you go the Bodyguard route.

Iron Hide - Boosts your Natural Armor by 1.

Dodge - Boosts your Dodge AC by 1.

Improved Natural Armor - Boosts your Natural Armor by 1, can be taken multiple times.

Extra Mercy (Exhausted) - Grab at level 9 and you'll never have to worry about not being able to use Defensive Stance.

Extra Lay on Hands - Will allow you to dump your CHR or just get more uses of LoH.

[NamelessNPC]

How much time does the stone elemental (or the mount, for that matter) last? I can't seem to find it anywhere, and the fact that you get multiple summons per day suggest that there is a way for it to dissappear. Or is the elemental always "active", and the full-round action is to teleport it to your side?

[NightbringerGGZ]

The text states that the elemental is called to your side "as a paladin calls her
mount."

The mount functions as a Druid's animal companion, using your Paladin level to determine your effective Druid level. So the elemental is basically a permanent companion. If you leave it behind for some reason though, say you have to travel on a ship for a couple of months, you can use your Paladin ability to summon the elemental to your side.

[Gorfnod]

Thanks to everyone for the input, special shout out to NightbringerGGZ for the feat write up. This is exactly what I was looking for.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Thanks to everyone for the input, special shout out to NightbringerGGZ for the feat write up. This is exactly what I was looking for.

You're quite welcome. I'd be interested in seeing what your final build looks like, I still haven't decided for myself how I'd like my character to wind up.

[Beowulf DW]

Point him at Antagonize for drawing aggro, then outfit him with a reach weapon and a way of making tons of AoOs and making them hurt. There's your MMO tank.

The Dwarven Longhammer would be perfect for that, think.