Help: Making a character for someone who won't understand the rules.

[Vashta]

So I have a player.

He has been playing 3.5 since 2007 but still was not aware that a Barbarian has full bab as of last month.
Now, I don't want to insult the man I just want to know if anyone has any idea how to go about making a fairly powerful Character for someone who probably will not read his feats or spells.:smallsigh:

He has asked that one of my other players help him out. So it's not a case of forcing him into a role. But that other player has always power gamed casters and found he could not "Dumb it down" enough.:smalleek:

He wants a battle caster. We were thinking the unearthed arcane battle sorcerer.

All the races books are allowed. + 5 others. LA +4 is required but can be from both race and temps.
They are at level 20(IE ecl 24)

Thanks for the help.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wow...

Uhm. You want a character that has lots of big numbers and does a single standard action thing just about every round. Like, the same sort of funky special attack...

With as many passive bonuses as possible...

Uhm... hmmm...

He doesn't want a caster. Not really. He just wants to be magical somehow...

[KillianHawkeye]

Level 20 Warlock

[Vashta]

Level 20 Warlock

I like this idea. But he shot it down.


Wow...

Uhm. You want a character that has lots of big numbers and does a single standard action thing just about every round. Like, the same sort of funky special attack...

With as many passive bonuses as possible...

Uhm... hmmm...

He doesn't want a caster. Not really. He just wants to be magical somehow...

lol it's not as easy as it sounds.

Perhaps if he just buffs in the morning? And fights as if he had those stats?

[Kelb_Panthera]

If he's been playing for 5 years and still has only the vaguest notion of how the game works, he doesn't really want to play. He want's to hang-out with his friends.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, per se, but you can't teach someone who doesn't really want to learn.

[VGLordR2]

He might enjoy the Incarnum system. A Totemist is a very powerful melee combatant. It puts up all of its Soulmelds in the morning, and they last all day. I think that this will be right up his alley, as they are very easy to use once you pick out a couple of good Soulmelds.

[Vashta]

If he's been playing for 5 years and still has only the vaguest notion of how the game works, he doesn't really want to play. He want's to hang-out with his friends.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, per se, but you can't teach someone who doesn't really want to learn.

True.:smallamused: On the other hand he enjoys it. And if we can make a simple character with a good easy to use sheet(+27 to hit roll d20) I don't need to teach and he does not need to learn.

But yes I would normally agree that he should try something else, but frankly he is sometimes less trouble than others.:xykon:

[Randomguy]

Dragonfire adept?

[Averis Vol]

You could always port in the PF magus, that's pretty much your token battlemage

[Saintheart]

Straight Warmage? Gives him a little variety with his spells, but it's a fixed list so he doesn't have to think much more than blast, blast, and blast.

[Godskook]

Swordsage might work. Gets a bit of that 'caster' feel without actually being a caster. Plus, if you print the maneuvers on cards and teach him to use them that way, it'll be a lot like he's playing MtG(use reminder text as needed).

[Elric VIII]

The Duskblade can survive while only using two spells: Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch. Throw in some Empower, Maximize, and Arcane Thesis. Just explain to him which spell slot is used for which version fo those spells.

At level 9 get Rapid Metamagic (CM) and you can channel the metamagic-enhanced spells as well. Or, give him the Arcane Preparation feat and just show him how many of those spells he can prepare at a given time.

As for the +4 LA, a Half-Fiend is a decent template. It has wings (so he doesn't have to worry about flight spells/items) and some good stat mods.

[Kavurcen]

Straight Warmage or Warlock would be the best. Even a poorly played Duskblade would be fine. See which you can convince him to go for and proceed from there.

[Krazzman]

THe main thing that irks me here is... WHY did he say no to Warlock?

And what sort of Powerful does he want with casters?

With Warlock you can do many things.
Clawlock, Meleelock, Sniperlock, Supportlock.
Dragonfire Adept is another solution.
The simplicity behind these are: take Invocation, cast at will. Feat's are not that relevant for a Warlock just give him those feats that boost his saves.

Make those suggestion seem like it is a sweet little piece of candy.

Please feed us more information.

[Ranting Fool]

Straight Warmage or Warlock would be the best. Even a poorly played Duskblade would be fine. See which you can convince him to go for and proceed from there.

Simple blasty Warmage sounds like what he wants. Full spellcasters are Tier 1 because they have options which unless you use them well you are worse then a blasty sorcerer who just spams Fireball any direct damage spell.

Random question: Does this player enjoy rollplaying? I mean do they get more fun out of RP type games then working out and leveling up characters (I've known people who enjoy the mechanics of building classes and the evolving more then the RP aspects) If it's all about the RP then class mechanics can take a back seat so not knowing how to play after 5 years isn't that big a deal. But IF that player doesn't do much RP or get much enjoyment out of that then they should really just read the books themselves :smalltongue::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[erikun]

All the races books are allowed. + 5 others. LA +4 is required but can be from both race and temps.
They are at level 20(IE ecl 24)

Thanks for the help.
If you want to keep things simple for him, then perhaps you shouldn't be starting him off at 20th level with a forced +4 LA race. What is wrong with a human sorcerer?

Anyways, I'd recommend a Warmage, a Sorcerer, or a Psion. If you are building the character for him, then you might be better off with the latter two options - it won't include dropping a whole spell list into his lap. Just grab some decent damage spells, some decent utility spells (Fly, Cloudkill) and let him have fun.

And for the love of Ao, know what the spells you choose for him do. If he doesn't know the BAB of a straight class he's been playing for years, then he probably doesn't know the difference between a standard attack, a touch attack, and a reflex save. Since you're choosing his spells, avoid spells that would bring up confusion (i.e. No spells that make a standard attack roll, only ones that involve a touch attack or saving throw).

[Gavinfoxx]

Feral, Half Minotaur, Mineral Warrior, Quasilycanthrope!

Or something. Iunno.

[King Atticus]

What about a melee focus DMM Cleric. Buff in the morning, beat on things all day long.

[Greyfeld85]

What about a melee focus DMM Cleric. Buff in the morning, beat on things all day long.

He can't even remember how his BAB works, I doubt anything more complicated than "I beat on that face," is going to click.

Anyway, I second Warmage or Warlock. The former mostly, because he doesn't have to actually make any decisions, all his spells are already picked for him.

[Raoul Duke]

I'd recommend an archery build Fighter class. It's oddly one of the simplest characters in 3.5, but effective. No Power Attack gambling to worry about, you almost always full attack, and your numbers are simple to manage.

I'd do a simple fighter with a Mighty Composite Longbow (+3 or more Str) focus.

With an Elite Array, I'd do the following, for example:
15 dex, 14 str + 2 racial, 13 con, 12 wis, 10 int -2 racial, 8 cha -2 racial
Half Orc Fighter
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 15 (raise w/stat bumps), Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6,
Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
F1 Precise Shot
F2 Rapid Shot
3 Weapon Focus
F4 Weapon Specialization
6 Manyshot
F6 Dodge
F8 Greater Weapon Focus
9 Improved Critical
F10 Mobility
12 Shot on the Run
F12 Quick Draw
F14 Improved Initiative
15 Improved Precise Shot
F16 Far Shot
18 Mounted Combat
F18 Mounted Archery
F20 Greater Manyshot

[Vizzerdrix]

Half troll Fighter into Kensai into Legacy Champion. So long as someone else handles the legacy item building with him, it can't get any simpler than that.

[ThiagoMartell]

Sadly, this guys is playing in the wrong group. "Rules heavy optimizers meet casual gamer"... yeah, it never ends well.

[roguemetal]

This sounds more like he has trouble with mathematics than with rules. Unless he is really resistant to learning this game.

If math is his problem, give him an Erudite Psion (check online), and do the power math FOR him. Then he only has one number to keep track of instead of individual spells per level. Warmage and Sorcerer are also good options, but require tricks to balance with Clerics or Wizards that he probably can't pull off.

If rules are his issue, give him a handout of actions he can take at any given time, with the calculations next to them. Tell him to write down his rolls and calculations before it becomes his turn, so as not to delay the speed of the game. Then it doesn't really matter what he plays, and you're giving him the freedom to choose.

[Kavurcen]

What about an Eldritch Claw Warlock, if he doesn't like the fluff of the regular class?
I haven't played one all the way to 20, but it seems like buffing it is just stacking d6s.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Consider this another vote for Warmage.

When one of my newest players wanted to try a caster, this was what she tried.

And she had a blast.

Yes, pun intended.

[Endelehia]

How about a Favored Soul?He fits the role of battle caster/gish nicely.

Plus you can help him choose the spells,and if you make the selection oversimplified (cure/restoration and rest only buffs or something) it will be quite easy to play.

It will never be a potent built of course,but i guess it will fit his needs.

[Kavurcen]

How about a Favored Soul?He fits the role of battle caster/gish nicely.

Plus you can help him choose the spells,and if you make the selection oversimplified (cure/restoration and rest only buffs or something) it will be quite easy to play.

It will never be a potent built of course,but i guess it will fit his needs.
It seems like he would enjoy offense a lot more, and I'd rather leave buffing and healing to more competent party members.

[roguemetal]

What about an Eldritch Claw Warlock, if he doesn't like the fluff of the regular class?
I haven't played one all the way to 20, but it seems like buffing it is just stacking d6s.
Ignore the fluff of the class. Unless it will become important in some way to the story, you can tell him that Warlocks gain their power from nuclear power generators that are bound to their being for as much as anyone cares. Mechanically he wants a warlock, but with the flavor of the wizard. Just give that to him. It'll hurt nobody.

[Vashta]

The Duskblade can survive while only using two spells: Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch. Throw in some Empower, Maximize, and Arcane Thesis. Just explain to him which spell slot is used for which version fo those spells.

A good idea. Simple deadly. Very few spells.


Random question: Does this player enjoy rollplaying? I mean do they get more fun out of RP type games then working out and leveling up characters (I've known people who enjoy the mechanics of building classes and the evolving more then the RP aspects) If it's all about the RP then class mechanics can take a back seat so not knowing how to play after 5 years isn't that big a deal. But IF that player doesn't do much RP or get much enjoyment out of that then they should really just read the books themselves

Yes he does. He LARPs and plays Vampire and such things. I think he likes playing more than thinking. It's really just a rules issue.


Sadly, this guys is playing in the wrong group. "Rules heavy optimizers meet casual gamer"... yeah, it never ends well.

True.


If rules are his issue, give him a handout of actions he can take at any given time, with the calculations next to them.

Making a 4th-ish sheet for this. Might make "Power cards"

As to why he does not to play a Warlock. It seems he played one once and died within a few seconds and now thinks they are crap.

Warmage seems to be a popular vote, though duskblade is better in my mind.

The LA could be ignored but it would make him standout in a bad way. Anyway in this world Human is LA +1 for some reason they seem to get +4 to a stat.


I'd recommend an archery build Fighter class.

Fighter would be ideal. He is set on being something "useful" though and wants to be able to interact in more than just a physical way. I know he still could but he does not see it that way.


And for the love of Ao, know what the spells you choose for him do. If he doesn't know the BAB of a straight class he's been playing for years, then he probably doesn't know the difference between a standard attack, a touch attack, and a reflex save.

I hope I have drilled this into his head.:smallsmile:


Swordsage might work. Gets a bit of that 'caster' feel without actually being a caster. Plus, if you print the maneuvers on cards and teach him to use them that way, it'll be a lot like he's playing MtG(use reminder text as needed).

I will see if this works or one of the ToB classes. The whole Magic card thing seems like a good idea. Hell I've seen eight year olds play that game.

As to why the game is at level 20.
It started at 9. And he has been there for all of it. Well not with the same character.

[Kavurcen]

Okay. I ask this only out of curiosity and I'm not suggesting giving him the boot or anything, but why does he play with you (and vise versa)? And can you explain his priorities for playing more?

[ThiagoMartell]

Okay. I ask this only out of curiosity and I'm not suggesting giving him the boot or anything, but why does he play with you (and vise versa)? And can you explain his priorities for playing more?

My guess is that he wants to spend some time with his friends and the game is a good opportunity. D&D is a social storytelling game. Some people are in it for the social part, some people are in it for the storytelling, some people are in it for the game. It's sad when someone is only interested in one aspect and looks down on people who are interested in other aspects. :smallfrown:

[Person_Man]

Just slap on some broken templates on top of any spontaneous full caster, tell tell him to take only Metamagic Feats, help him pick out a few good spells, and he'll be fine.

Consider:

Saint template (Book of Exalted Deeds, +2 LA) +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, Fast Healing and DR that improve with HD, Circle of Protection, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Wis bonus to AC, Fire Resistance, Immunity to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Petrification, and a bunch of other perks.

White Dragonspawn template (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, +1 LA): +2 Dex, +2 Con, +7 Natural Armor, wings, breath weapon, 1st level Sorcerer casting.

Half-Fey race (Fiend Folio, +2 LA): +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, wings with fast fly speed, Immunity to Enchantment spells and effects, Charm Person at will, and plenty of spell like abilities.


There's probably dozens of other examples (he'll also want good Spell Resistance from some race or template if possible as well). But the point is that if he generally just hangs back and lobs cool spells into the mix and has lots of defensive abilities so that he doesn't accidentally get killed.

[Vashta]

He's like a puppy we like him even if he ruins the carpet.:smalltongue: