Medic Durkon

[sims796]

I notice in this comic that during actual fights proper, Durkon doesn't do much healing until the end. Why is that? I thought that, as a cleric, his main position would be to keep his allies topped off. Is it because enemies hurt more than they can heal, or because he can't heal fast enough? But then if it's the latter, doesn't "Quickening" help with that, or do I have those rules wrong?

[Studoku]

From an in-game perspective, combat healing is extremely inefficient compared to preventive medicine- i.e. killing whatever's dealing the damage.

From an in-comic perspective, Durkon gets few enough times to shine as it is compared to the rest of the party and having to heal instead of doing anything cool wouldn't help. Team cleric is an exception to this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html)

[sims796]

From an in-game perspective, combat healing is extremely inefficient compared to preventive medicine- i.e. killing whatever's dealing the damage.

From an in-comic perspective, Durkon gets few enough times to shine as it is compared to the rest of the party and having to heal instead of doing anything cool wouldn't help.

I didn't think of the second perspective, thanks.

So, from an in-game perspective, why are clerics known as such "great healers" (I quote because I've heard that before in the past) if it's better to just tak out the main source of damage? They seem more like glorified patchworkers, the way they patch things up at the end of fights.

[Kish]

Stu42 has answered the main question. So I'll just add that the "Quicken Spell" feat lets Durkon prepare spells as Quickened spells which can be cast as a swift action (Durkon can cast one in a round in addition to a standard action) in spell slots four levels higher than the spells take normally.

Even if healing spells were usually the best use for Durkon's spell slots, Quickened Cure Light Wounds would very rarely be the best use for his fifth-level spell slots, and whereas he can trade out any prepared spell for an equivalent-level un-Quickened Cure Wounds spell at any time, to cast spells as Quickened spells, he'd need to prepare them as Quickened spells.

Edit because you posted while I was posting: Why are you apparently under the impression that unless you heal actively during combat rather than doing anything else, you don't count as a healer? If Roy falls all the way to 2 hit points and needs it, then Durkon can cast Heal on him. It doesn't make Durkon a bad healer that he doesn't spend all the Order's fights casting Cure Light Wounds on everyone who's taken five points of damage or waiting for someone to get injured enough to justify a more powerful spell. The whole point of giving clerics spontaneous casting of healing spells was so that a player who wanted to be the best healer wouldn't have to prepare healing spells in all his/her slots and spend most of his/her fights acting like a second-rate fighter.

[Douglas]

I didn't think of the second perspective, thanks.

So, from an in-game perspective, why are clerics known as such "great healers" (I quote because I've heard that before in the past) if it's better to just tak out the main source of damage? They seem more like glorified patchworkers, the way they patch things up at the end of fights.
Because they are, excluding some relatively obscure and rarely used things, the best healers in the game. It's just that even their healing is in most cases too slow to be worthwhile in combat (exception: the specific high level spells Heal and Mass Heal), especially when clerics also have substantial offensive capability.

[ZerglingOne]

Think of it this way. As a good cleric, he can spontaneously cast healing spells. Better to prepare buffs and combat spells than heals. That way after combat (assuming no one drops of course) he can bring everyone back to full. This is far more efficient than keeping someone topped off, as that can cause overhealing.

Edit: also, what's better in combat, 15d6 to all of your enemies, or 1d8+15 to all allies?

[sims796]

I think I get it now. Seems I've been getting some iffy info, then.

EDIT: Waitaminute, is that why people I see on other forums tote Clerics as the most powerful casting class?

[ZerglingOne]

I think I get it now. Seems I've been getting some iffy info, then.

EDIT: Waitaminute, is that why people I see on other forums tote Clerics as the most powerful casting class?

Well, they can do almost anything a wizard can and do it in heavy armor no less, all while being able to heal themselves. Also, read the miracle spell in the SRD and compare it to wish and you'll cry Hax.

[Mandor]

EDIT: Waitaminute, is that why people I see on other forums tote Clerics as the most powerful casting class?

Somewhere, I think Vaarsuvius just /fliptable'd :smallbiggrin:

I haven't played actual tabletop pen&paper D&D in long, long, time. But even back in the day, I always remembered cleric healing up after the fights, unless someone actually hit the floor and needed immediate triage. And usually people carried some potions for oh-crap situations. As you originally speculated, it's juat a matter of preventing damage by killing the threat being more efficient.

Clerics constantly healing in the middle of an ongoing battle... that I tend to associate with MMO's... be it EverQuest, or Warcraft, or heck, even City of Heroes.

[sims796]

Ah, thanks, I'm starting to get it now. Ok, one last question. Earlier in this strip's lifetime, it was mentioned that Druids usually take Natural Spell feat. I know what that feat does (if I ever get the chance to play the game, rather than rules-studying, I'd probably play as them).

So, how far are druids really in the hierarchy of spellcasters? Above or beneath clerics proper?

[zimmerwald1915]

Somewhere, I think Vaarsuvius just /fliptable'd :smallbiggrin:
Also, much of the internet.

[KoboldRevenge]

Also, much of the internet.

And the bottom right corner of reality.

[Knaight]

So, how far are druids really in the hierarchy of spellcasters? Above or beneath clerics proper?

This is a point of contention - they're close, in any case. As for the relative power of classes, the Tier system is actually really good about that, though it does seem to offend the sensibilities of people who want D&D to be balanced and feel that acknowledging that it isn't harms the game.

[Dr.Epic]

When you read the thread title, did you think man, wouldn't it be awesome if Durkon was the Medic from TF2? In fact, it'd be awesome if the Order were all the classes from TF2!!!:smallbiggrin:

[skaddix]

Honestly Durkon usually heals after fights or after someone has gone down hard Because its more effective. This is not WoW.

[Steward]

This is a point of contention - they're close, in any case. As for the relative power of classes, the Tier system is actually really good about that, though it does seem to offend the sensibilities of people who want D&D to be balanced and feel that acknowledging that it isn't harms the game.

Yeah, you can check the tier system for relative power very well. (It would be hard to find a Druid that was overall weaker than a Healer, for example.) The best and most vivid example that I can use is from that story arc though. You'll notice that Leeky was singlehandedly fighting off almost the entire Order at one point. His animal companion alone was providing a serious challenge to Haley and he managed to raise an army of trees that had Durkon and Vaarsuvius outmatched at least temporarily. Even after that was dealt with, the druid was able to shapeshift into a much more powerful body and still keep fighting.

A lot of that is a little exaggerated for dramatic purposes but it is true that a well-optimized druid can be a skilled and versatile opponent. Some people even joke that some of a druid's class features (like its animal companions) are more powerful than certain other classes.

[Rorrik]

Edit: also, what's better in combat, 15d6 to all of your enemies, or 1d8+15 to all allies?

That depends on how many allies and enemies you have. Though, in general, 15d6 to enemies.

[Jay R]

So, from an in-game perspective, why are clerics known as such "great healers" (I quote because I've heard that before in the past) if it's better to just tak out the main source of damage?

For the same reason that a "great plumber" turns off the water before he patches the busted pipe.

[Amarsir]

I notice in this comic that during actual fights proper, Durkon doesn't do much healing until the end. Why is that? I thought that, as a cleric, his main position would be to keep his allies topped off. Is it because enemies hurt more than they can heal, or because he can't heal fast enough? But then if it's the latter, doesn't "Quickening" help with that, or do I have those rules wrong?

A thought: Is it possible your original perspective comes from MMORPGs? Those tend to be balanced so that everyone can heal themselves out of combat, which means a healer's role is to top-up during combat, which means fight difficulty is based on the premise that players will lose many times their own HP over the course of a "fair" fight.

D&D isn't balanced that way. Combat is just a piece of the whole rather than the objective. And DMs can adjust encounters at a whim based on what they want their players to experience - interrupting a rest period or forcing a long respite-less struggle (for example). Therefore healing outside of combat is a much more important role and by comparison, healing inside it less so.

[sims796]

A thought: Is it possible your original perspective comes from MMORPGs? Those tend to be balanced so that everyone can heal themselves out of combat, which means a healer's role is to top-up during combat, which means fight difficulty is based on the premise that players will lose many times their own HP over the course of a "fair" fight.

D&D isn't balanced that way. Combat is just a piece of the whole rather than the objective. And DMs can adjust encounters at a whim based on what they want their players to experience - interrupting a rest period or forcing a long respite-less struggle (for example). Therefore healing outside of combat is a much more important role and by comparison, healing inside it less so.

Here we go, that makes it much more clearer. It wasn't exactly an MMO perspective that was clouding my mind, but old school (I'm sorry, old skool) RPG's, which I know was derived from tabletop. But this clears it up better than most.

EDIT: So, it not being like an electronic RPG, does the whole "shoot the medic first" thing still come into mind, or does it depend on the encounter?

I could imagine the Linear Guild making Durkon a priority simply because they don't want him patching up the team afterwards.

[Jay R]

So, it not being like an electronic RPG, does the whole "shoot the medic first" thing still come into mind, or does it depend on the encounter?

Shoot the one who can do the most damage first. That's usually the wizard, followed by the cleric. That's why one melee fighter's primary job is to protect the spellcasters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html).

[BlackBart]

Taken from a story perspective, healing is sort of filler. It's far more interesting to explore other ways Durkon can lend a hand in a fight or stir up the action than it is to just see him healing all the time.

[Firewind]

Ah, thanks, I'm starting to get it now. Ok, one last question. Earlier in this strip's lifetime, it was mentioned that Druids usually take Natural Spell feat. I know what that feat does (if I ever get the chance to play the game, rather than rules-studying, I'd probably play as them).

So, how far are druids really in the hierarchy of spellcasters? Above or beneath clerics proper?

Druids basically have Class Features more powerful than entire classes.

[cupkeyk]

Also Close Wounds and Revivify. ^_^

[Lvl45DM!]

When you read the thread title, did you think man, wouldn't it be awesome if Durkon was the Medic from TF2? In fact, it'd be awesome if the Order were all the classes from TF2!!!:smallbiggrin:

Durkon: Ok you might think Medic but I reckon hes more like the Demoman. Drunk, Scottish, family man, bit of a gamebreaker if used properly.
V: Pyro - genderless and likes fire
Belkar: Scout - small, dangerous but annoying and a bit of a butt monkey
Haley: Spy - well duh
Elan: Soldier = Elan isn't really bloodthirsty enough for any of them but this is close. Both are Jack of All Trades and loonier than the rest
Roy: Heavy - The big guy with a big sword/gun who is smarter than he looks.
Redcloak: Engineer - possibly the smartest person in the cast, with abilities beyond his time (turrets in 1960s, Titanium elementals) and very very patient.
Xykon: Saxton Hale - just replace Australian with Undead and Fists with Energy Drain

[King of Nowhere]

rich mentioned on twitter that he feel healing is a waste of comic space. the party got wounded in a fight, next strip they are again full hp, we know durkon healed them. no point showing it, there's a limited number of panel in each comic and rich must select what's important.

On why durkon heals after rather than during, except for the occasional heal, others have answered thoroughly that for the way D&D is balanced it is most efficient that way.

I just wanted to say mine on tiers, which I feel quite reductive. I see their usefulness, and I admit I'm not the biggest expert of minmaxing, but all those arguments generally tend to assume that everyone adventures alone. I've read so many issues on balancment in a fight of a cleric and a wizard, or other 2 classes, but I've never read any argument on how to combine different class skills in a teamfight. It's like people forgot they are supposed to be a party. When I read people discussing strategy on this forum, I get the impression their goal in playing D&D is to outshine their friends.
D&D is much better balanced if we consider a party that goes together and do not fight all the time.

Also, the power of the spellcasters can be greatly reduced if the world is prepared for them, as it should. I find ludicrous that the average wizard player expects to be able to passwall into the caveau of a bank, walk invisibly in the throne room and mind dominate the king without anyone noticing, charm random girls to mate with them without getting any trouble from the law, or being put in common prisons with all their spell slots available. All the while every enemy of the party will attack the meat shield. If played like that, spelllcasters are unbalanced, I agree very much.
But I found in my campaign world that you can do a lot to balance them just by smartening up the world. Every important place will be guarded against magic, and very important ones will often be protected by permanent antimagic fields. any smart opponent will know to focus the party wizard. hard. and that includes anything above wild animals because even the most ignorant orc barbarian will know to KILL THE WIZARD FIRST. I think I dmed a few fights where the enemies were killed by the rest of the party while they were chasing the sorceress, who did nothing but run for her life the whole fight. and they will not shift the focus once the wizard is low hp, as is often done by dms who do are trying not to kill players. if they didn't want you to kill someone every once in a while, they wouldn't have resurrection spells. if a spellcaster is imprisoned, if they don't have an antimagic field or some other way of disrupting spellcasting, they would at least leave him bound, gagged, and heavily guarded by several men with clubs ready to knock him unconscious at the first sign of spellcasting.
All those kind of tricks will do wonders to adjust the balance of power in a more equilibrated way, and they will also make the world more realistic than the standard D&D setting.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Elan: Soldier = Elan isn't really bloodthirsty enough for any of them but this is close. Both are Jack of All Trades and loonier than the rest

Not to mention that the Soldier's gotten a few buff items, recently, like the Concheror.