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ShadowPsyker
2012-07-30, 04:46 PM
I like the idea behind the anthropomorphic races from savage species. Specifically I have enjoyed plying the Elephant even though the Anthro's have a special disadvantage in which they get no feats for their starting HD. This means my elephant has 5 dead levels (feat-wise). More than half of these characters end up dying, but that's fine, it's all about the style and feel. Problem is a lot of games don't start off at level 5+ and so this path isn't always viable. However, I really like the style and look of Loxodons (from MTG). There are plenty of images for reference and I have decided to adapt them as a Player character race.

To start with I feel they should have a +1 LA. With this in mind I am aware of the game Statistics for the Krynn Minotaur (+0 LA). They have natural armor, are strong (+4 Str) and have a gore attack.

Changes For the Loxodon;
1) I think an extra +2 to Str, Con, and Wis (cause they're beefy, they are shown as being very tough, and they are known for being clerics and mystics).
2) Gain low-light vision.
3) Exchange the charge bonus on Gore for Stability like a dwarf (Cause their Elephantine legs).
4) Exchange the bonus on Intimidate, Swim, and Use rope, for +4 on Listen (for obvious reasons) & a +2 survival (in grasslands only! *added for flavor*).

Final result;
Str +6, Dex -2, Con +2, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha -2
Medium size Humanoid (Can take the Hulking Brute Feat)
Natural armor +2
Gore attack for 1d6
Stability (+4 to resist bull rush/trip when on ground)
+4 racial bonus on Listen
+2 on Survival in grasslands
Herbivorous (Must make DC 15 fort save or be fatigued for 24 hours after eating a portion of meat)
Loxodons may take the scent special quality as a feat (See the DMG pg. 298)
Automatic languages: Common and Loxodon. Bonus languages; Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling, Orc & Sylvan.
Favored Class: Cleric
LA +1

To further this Idea, I have also come up with a Loxodon Paragon class (vis a vis; Unearthed Arcana).
Alignment: Any
HD: D10

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Might Makes right

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Natural Armor increase

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Ability Boost (+2 Str)[/table]

Class Skills
The Loxodon Paragon's class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill point at each Level: 4+ Int modifier

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Loxodon Paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor and shields (Except Tower Shields). In addition they gain martial weapon proficiency with the Warhammer, Maul & Glaive.
Might Makes Right (Ex): Loxodon Paragons may use their Str modifier on Intimidate instead of Cha. If they do then they suffer a -4 against targets that are at least one size category larger. This penalty is in addition to the penalty for Intimidating larger opponents.
Natural Armor increase (Ex): Loxodon Paragons gain an additional +1 to Natural Armor at second level.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level a Loxodon Paragons Str score increases by an additional +2.

ShadowPsyker
2012-07-31, 06:58 AM
Looky! A Prestige class;

Loxodon Brute
HD: D10

Requirements
Race: Loxodon
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Intimidate 5 ranks, Sense Motive 2 Ranks.
Feats: Hulking Brute.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Size Increase

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Ability Boost (+2 Con), Hammer fist

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Elephantine Hide

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Ability Boost (+2 Str)

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Peace Keeper [/table]

Class Skills
The Loxodon Brute's class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill point at each Level: 4+ Int modifier

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Loxodon Brute's gain no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.
Size Increase (Ex): A Loxodon Brute increases in size to Large. As a result they gain an additional +2 to Str, and a -2 to Dex, along with another +1 to natural armor (These values replace those normally acquired for increasing from size Medium to size Large presented in the Monster Manual). As a Large creature the Brute now suffers a -1 to all attacks and to AC. The benefits of being Large override those of the Hulking Brute feat.
Ability Boost (Ex): Loxodon Brute's gain a bonus to Con of +2 at 2nd level. They also gain an additional +2 to Str at 4th level.
Hammer fist(Ex): At 2nd level a Loxodon Brute's growth and physical might has granted him a powerful slam attack, inflicting 1d8 + Str modifier damage. If used as a secondary attack it deals 1D8 + half the Brute's Str modifier and suffers a -5 attack penalty.
Elephantine Hide (Ex): At 3rd level a Brute gains an additional +1 to his existing Natural Armor bonus as the Loxodon's muscles strain against his thick hide.
Peace Keeper (Ex): At 5th level a Loxodon has achieved unparalleled physical prowess allowing him to keep the peace the best way he knows how (through force of arms). The Loxodon gains an additional +2 to both Str & Con but suffers a -2 on Dex as he grows to a height of at least 9 feet. In addition he now suffers a -4 penalty on all Cha checks and Cha based Skills, except Intimidate & Handle animal.

Deepbluediver
2012-07-31, 03:46 PM
Loxodons! What a great idea! I've been trying to come up with my own selection of races for a little worldbuilding project, and I don't really have anything like these yet.

I'm pretty bad at critiquing LA+, but most of this looks pretty good; not too powerful but with decent flavor. I think the MtG race tended to more heavily emphasize their wisdom and spirituality over their hulking battle-prowess, but that's easy enough to work around.

The only thing I would reconsider is changing their size to large. Dwarves for example, are medium because despite being short they are very stocky; I would think that anything based on an elephant would have similar characteristics.

ShadowPsyker
2012-07-31, 04:12 PM
See the picture on spell tithe enforcer card. He's maybe 6'3" at most.
As for LA; I compared this to the Loxo and the big difference is that the Loxodon can be a little stronger, at about the same HD but the Loxodon has a -4 Dex, and the Loxo has +2 Dex along with 2 slam attacks based on it's split trunk.

Note: the prestige class ability "Peace keeper" is drawn from the Loxodon peace keeper card (jumping his physical size up even more).

Addendum: For a power comparison without the Prestige class or Paragon; see Draconic template applied to the aforementioned Krynn Minotaur.

toapat
2012-07-31, 08:46 PM
See the picture on spell tithe enforcer card. He's maybe 6'3" at most.
As for LA; I compared this to the Loxo and the big difference is that the Loxodon can be a little stronger, at about the same HD but the Loxodon has a -4 Dex, and the Loxo has +2 Dex along with 2 slam attacks based on it's split trunk.

Note: the prestige class ability "Peace keeper" is drawn from the Loxodon peace keeper card (jumping his physical size up even more).

Addendum: For a power comparison without the Prestige class or Paragon; see Draconic template applied to the aforementioned Krynn Minotaur.

Alara's Loxodons are short (you would be too, if your homeworld was the size of Jupiter and the density of earth.), Mirrodin's ones average 8' tall, and Mirrodin is about the size of earth.

also, you arent converting SS to 3.5 if you arent giving your Loxodon PCs HD feats. (in 3rd. each type of creature gained feats differently. most types recieved feats every 4 HD, Animals, Oozes, plants, vermin, and beasts didnt gain any.)

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-02, 01:31 PM
Alara's Loxodons are short (you would be too, if your homeworld was the size of Jupiter and the density of earth.), Mirrodin's ones average 8' tall, and Mirrodin is about the size of earth.

also, you arent converting SS to 3.5 if you arent giving your Loxodon PCs HD feats. (in 3rd. each type of creature gained feats differently. most types recieved feats every 4 HD, Animals, Oozes, plants, vermin, and beasts didnt gain any.)

Where did you find information stating that a Loxodon has an average height of 8 feet. Even so that would still put them within the medium range of 4 ft-8 ft tall, but I was looking for basic info on them. Note: if you you take the prestige class you can grow to large size and have a Str bonus of up to +14. And I think you may be confused as to what the size of Alara is (Density of Earth means EQUAL gravitational pull, physical size just means more places to roam).

As for SS into 3.5; the template specifically states they have no feats except for weapon finesse, and so the specific rule given overrides the general rule. Unless there is errata which changes this, which I would very much like to see, but I feel they abandoned this book too easily.

toapat
2012-08-02, 01:55 PM
Where did you find information stating that a Loxodon has an average height of 8 feet. Even so that would still put them within the medium range of 4 ft-8 ft tall, but I was looking for basic info on them. Note: if you you take the prestige class you can grow to large size and have a Str bonus of up to +14. And I think you may be confused as to what the size of Alara is (Density of Earth means EQUAL gravitational pull, physical size just means more places to roam).

As for SS into 3.5; the template specifically states they have no feats except for weapon finesse, and so the specific rule given overrides the general rule. Unless there is errata which changes this, which I would very much like to see, but I feel they abandoned this book too easily.

Alara is a strange plane, but if it is a sphere, it would be that large and that heavy. Loxodons are not depicted with humans too much, and Mirrodin Loxodons are not from Alara.

that template again is based off of rules in the 3rd ed MM, which has a rule specifically stating that animals dont recieve feats with their hitdice. although i would like to review it.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-02, 02:37 PM
Where did you find information stating that a Loxodon has an average height of 8 feet. Even so that would still put them within the medium range of 4 ft-8 ft tall, but I was looking for basic info on them. Note: if you you take the prestige class you can grow to large size and have a Str bonus of up to +14. And I think you may be confused as to what the size of Alara is (Density of Earth means EQUAL gravitational pull, physical size just means more places to roam).

The strength of a gravitational pull is dependent mostly upon mass and distance; a planet that was composed of solid elements (so a density similar to earth) but was many times larger would indeed have a much greater gravity than you experience on Earth. In all likeliehood, this would make animals shorter and denser, but we're mostly talking about a fantasy universe so I think you can check most laws of nature and physics at the door.
As I said in my original post though, size is not just about height, but also about weight. Many Dwarves would be on the small-medium border, but because of their stocky build they weight at least as much as the taller humans and elves. Loxodons are basically bipedal elephants, and most of the pictures display them as being exceedingly muscular and stocky. I think it would be quite easy for one to weigh more than 500 pounds, and be about the same size as a troll or ogre. As another example, since you mentioned basing your template off one variety, is the minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm) listed in the SRD, which is only 7 feet tall, but weighs 700 pounds, and is therefor classified as a large creature.

You can do whatever you want with your races, of course, but I think it would fit the flavor of the design well, and it might be interesting to have a few non-evil large sized races floating around.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-03, 08:07 AM
Krynn Minotaur is a +0 LA Race that is medium size. And size has nothing to do with weight in D&D, vis a vis; a large fire elemental weighs less than an anemic halfling.

There are two big reasons I went for Medium.
1) Of only 2 pictures which allow you to gauge size; 1 has them at 6 feet. This means that either they fall within the medium (But can be large) range, or the one depicted is a freak. I find the former to be more likely.
2) If they began as large there's not much of a reason they could start as a +1 LA.

My listing solves both issues. You want to play a 7 ft elephant with Str on par with many large creatures, go for the base. You want a behemoth; it's built in. No special adjudications needed just take levels in what you prefer.

Note: Even if you don't go large you can still take the hulking brute feat which gives you the large size's opposed Str mods plus the Loxodon stability (Just try bull rushing that guy). And really if your'e going to compare them to the 6 HD Minotaur then just take the Prestige levels you can be large at a lower ECL (4 levels of fighter *using the bonus feats to make up for having to take hulking brute* and 1 level of Prestige and boom = +8 Str, Large size).

Random Fact: An elephant is a huge creature that weighs about 8,000 lbs. If you halve it's size (down to large) it would weigh 500 lbs. And that's assuming they actually kept the same quadruped body type.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-03, 09:49 AM
Krynn Minotaur is a +0 LA Race that is medium size. And size has nothing to do with weight in D&D, vis a vis; a large fire elemental weighs less than an anemic halfling.

Weight is often linked to size, although I concede that it tends to be the more variable of the two measurements. As I pointed out, the 7-ft tall minotaur in the SRD is categorized as a large creature.
Also, the Powerful Build feat allows you to act like a creature of a larger size category, showing a distinct link between musculature and size-rating.



There are two big reasons I went for Medium.
1) Of only 2 pictures which allow you to gauge size; 1 has them at 6 feet. This means that either they fall within the medium (But can be large) range, or the one depicted is a freak. I find the former to be more likely.
2) If they began as large there's not much of a reason they could start as a +1 LA.

What pictures are you referring to? I know that most MtG cards just have one creature on them at a time, and there isn't a lot of other artwork for loxodons. If we're talking about the Spelltithe Enforcer card, then the creatures he's standing next to have glowing eyes, so they probably aren't human, we can't see his feet, and judging by the length of his arms and trunk he could easily be either sitting or the card is only showing him from the knees up. I admit it's hard to tell, but I don't think there's much evidence either way.
Also, if 50% of the pictures that you can use to judge size show them at 6 ft. tall, what do the other 50% show?



Random Fact: An elephant is a huge creature that weighs about 8,000 lbs. If you halve it's size (down to large) it would weigh 500 lbs. And that's assuming they actually kept the same quadruped body type.

If you follow the square/cube law, halving or doubling something's size changes it's weight by a factor of eight or one-eighth (1/8). [twice as tall/twice as wide/twice as broad=2x2x2=2^3 (cubed)=8; or (1/2)x(1/2)x(1/2)=(1/8)]. In other words, a half-size elephant would weigh 1,000 pounds.
See the spell Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) for supporting evidence.


As I said, it's your creature, so you can do whatever you want with it. But IMO, it would make a lot of sense to classify them as large. The SRD minotaur, with it's 6 racial HD and all assorted bonuses only has LA +2; it seems like it shouldn't be that hard to make a +0 LA, or at worst a +1 LA large loxodon.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-03, 10:39 PM
Weight is often linked to size, although I concede that it tends to be the more variable of the two measurements. As I pointed out, the 7-ft tall minotaur in the SRD is categorized as a large creature.
Also, the Powerful Build feat allows you to act like a creature of a larger size category, showing a distinct link between musculature and size-rating.




What pictures are you referring to? I know that most MtG cards just have one creature on them at a time, and there isn't a lot of other artwork for loxodons. If we're talking about the Spelltithe Enforcer card, then the creatures he's standing next to have glowing eyes, so they probably aren't human, we can't see his feet, and judging by the length of his arms and trunk he could easily be either sitting or the card is only showing him from the knees up. I admit it's hard to tell, but I don't think there's much evidence either way.
Also, if 50% of the pictures that you can use to judge size show them at 6 ft. tall, what do the other 50% show?




If you follow the square/cube law, halving or doubling something's size changes it's weight by a factor of eight or one-eighth (1/8). [twice as tall/twice as wide/twice as broad=2x2x2=2^3 (cubed)=8; or (1/2)x(1/2)x(1/2)=(1/8)]. In other words, a half-size elephant would weigh 1,000 pounds.
See the spell Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) for supporting evidence.


As I said, it's your creature, so you can do whatever you want with it. But IMO, it would make a lot of sense to classify them as large. The SRD minotaur, with it's 6 racial HD and all assorted bonuses only has LA +2; it seems like it shouldn't be that hard to make a +0 LA, or at worst a +1 LA large loxodon.

Show me what you think a +1 LA Loxodon that's large is then (That conforms to the books, not 3rd party, web enhancements, or magazine articles).
And again; if there is evidence that puts Loxodon possibly towards the size of medium, then why not start them at medium and let them increase in size if they choose to (the alternative being that if the one pictured is medium; he must be a freak)? Note: Obviously I meant from huge all the way down to medium as that was what was suggested in your previous post. I simply omitted one of the steps which i will post here;
If an elephant weighing 8000 lbs stood upright like a human it would be about 22 feet tall (Half equals 11 feet weighing 1000 lbs so to get it down to a tall medium, say 7 - 8 feet it would be around 500) I didn't think I would have to be that specific since it was you that suggested a 7 ft Loxodon would weigh so much more than the Minotaur.

NOTE: Many humans in that set have glowing eyes. Why do you assume that not only must he be large, but that the two very human like figures must also be large and also not human? Unless they have some kind of giant only clothing that makes super big creases and folds; their clothing even appears normal sized. You are making up extra excuses to force the Loxodon into Large. If I have upset you by suggesting that they are medium, I'm sorry, but all the evidence I have found points to Medium (but can be bigger) so I made them off the evidence as it exists.

Just to Browse
2012-08-03, 11:05 PM
This post has been cut.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-03, 11:18 PM
I'm not going to get in on this weight/height argument because it doesn't matter, but it'd be nice to have an LA +0 Loxodon race with an extra level in order to get stat bonuses so you can play a moderately strong Loxodon cleric, or a crazy musclebound Loxodon barbarian.

Personally, I'd write Loxodons are good Str/Wis combatants, with no mental penalties so DMM isn't penalized their cleric's classic stats aren't penalized. Plus I think Loxodons are actually pretty human-like in their intelligence and interpersonal capabilities. People just might not like them because they're elephants.

Since Strength offers diminishing returns, I'd make an LA +0 Loxodon as such:

+2 Str or Wis, -2 Dex
Big: Loxodons that get a Strength bonus get an addition racial bonus to Strength of +1 every 3 levels. When a Loxodon has +6 racial Strength bonus from his race, they are considered Large, but do not get the attribute modifiers associated with increasing in size.
Gore Attack (1d6)
Listen +2 (+4 for an important skill seems like a lot)
Survival +2
Herbivorous
Scent? (does this actually make sense? I don't know anything about elephants)

Then your racial class can give +2 racial strength strength and natural armor at every level, making him a large, dangerous tank by level 3.

So as a 12th level character (That's actual class levels not racial HD) you would think a +6 Str, large size is not worth a level adjust?! You and I are on different planets when it comes to scalable power level. And where is the Loxodon's natural armor? You can't be serious when you list they have the same skin as a human at base. I think we have to simply disagree. Every reference in the books talks about how gruff and un-charismatic they are. It seems like your'e just making an elephant guy without regards to Loxodons specifically.
Addendum: You also started them at medium and let them go large, so why are you arguing with my Stat blocks?

On a fresh note: Does anyone else have any input? Or are we talking in a vacuum? Come on Playground. Is a Loxodon really that uninteresting.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-03, 11:30 PM
And again; if there is evidence that puts Loxodon possibly towards the size of medium, then why not start them at medium and let them increase in size if they choose to (the alternative being that if the one pictured is medium; he must be a freak)?

Ok, look, please relax, I'm not attacking you, or your ideas, but you did post them here and ask for feedback, and my comment was that loxodons should be a large race.

In regards to that: I admitted there does not seem to be much concrete support for the exact dimensions of a loxodon. You mentioned 2 pictures that you said allowed you to compare the size of a loxodon to another creature. I listed the one that I knew of and explained why I thought the way I did; if you have other images that offer contrasting evidence TELL ME WHAT THEY ARE AND I WILL GO LOOK AT THEM.

As far as I know, all adult individuals of any given race are one size category and one size category only; it's part of how you define what a race is. The only ways that I know of to alter a creature's size category are via magic spells, or templates. If you want to represent that a particular racial paragon class exemplafies size and strength, I would suggest giving them the Powerful Build feat, which keeps them the same size category but gives them most of the benefits as if they where one size larger.



Note: Obviously I meant from huge all the way down to medium
You SAID down to large, I quoted you. Don't get snippy because you posted the wrong thing.


...all the way down to medium as that was what was suggested in your previous post. I simply omitted one of the steps which i will post here;
If an elephant weighing 8000 lbs stood upright like a human it would be about 22 feet tall (Half equals 11 feet weighing 1000 lbs so to get it down to a tall medium, say 7 - 8 feet it would be around 500)
There are very specific rules for changing size in D&D; you can't just make up whatever numbers you feel like. A creature that shrinks down in size one complete category is presumed to keep all the same proportions, and therefor has it's weight reduced to one-eighth (1/8) of it's previous weight. A creature going from huge to medium would have it's weight reduced to 1/8 at large, then reduced again to 1/8 of that. So you're 8,000 pound 22-ft long elephant would have it's length reduced to 5.5 ft (22/2=11, 11/2=5.5), and it's weight reduced to 125 pounds (8,000/8=1,000, 1,000/8=125). Slightly smaller than the average adult human male.

All math aside, we ARE talking about a fantasic humanoid race that just happens to have some similar characteristics to an elephant, so I accept that there will be some differences, and we might not have our creature's fall on exactly equal divisions of size.



I didn't think I would have to be that specific since it was you that suggested a 7 ft Loxodon would weigh so much more than the Minotaur.
It was you and the other poster, toapat, who seemed to be stuck as height as the end-all-and-be-all factor for determining size. I merely wanted to point out that there was room for overlap and not every race had to meet those exact criteria, especially if it was near the border of size categories.



NOTE: Many humans in that set have glowing eyes.*snip* all the evidence I have found points to Medium (but can be bigger) so I made them off the evidence as it exists.
All the evidence you have presented so far is one not very clear picture. I think I mentioned I didn't see much good evidence to argue for either medium OR large. But they are humanoid-elephants, and one of an elephants defining characteristics is it's size; that would seem to push them up, rather than down in my book.



Show me what you think a +1 LA Loxodon that's large is then.
Uhm, I admitted that I'm not very experienced at calculating appropriate LA. I recognize, however, that it is much easier to criticize than to create. So if you want, I will do my best to generate a large-sized, but not overpowered creature, and you may critique it to your heart's content. Give me about 15-20 minutes, and I will post a link to my version of a loxodon.

Just to Browse
2012-08-04, 12:07 AM
This post has been cut.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-04, 12:36 AM
Here you go, one LA +1 loxodon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13668440#post13668440), to the best of my abilities; feel free to level any critiques you wish.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-04, 01:03 AM
Really? I tried to move on, but okay here we go.
For Deepblue;
1) Stop shouting. I already mentioned It; Loxodon Peacekeeper! And I can't give it much credence since the image appears distorted and off kilter.
2) All adults are 1 size category? Yeah if that race happens to fall in between the convenient double-double size they use. But if they are between 7 and 9 feet tall they would occupy 2 size categories and i have listed both!
3) I'm not making up numbers. I'm extrapolating values based on given evidence (i.e. An Elephant dropping down to 7 feet tall). By your example a Loxodon could only be 11 or 5.5 feet tall, and me doing the math to make them anything else is making up numbers.
4) In Bold for your benefit;


Loxodons are basically bipedal elephants, and most of the pictures display them as being exceedinly muscular and stocky. I think it would be quite easy for one to weigh more than 500 pounds, and be about the same size as a troll or ogre. As another example, since you mentioned basing your template off one variety, is the minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm) listed in the SRD, which is only 7 feet tall, but weighs 700 pounds, and is therefor classified as a large creature.

5) All evidence presented is all the evidence WOTC has given. If I was doing this from scratch I would give more. Look at the card values provided. Most Loxodons fall around the lower end of ogres, but above knights and warriors in MTG. Larger ogres and most giants are much bigger on power/tough. This is not a hard/fast rule for anything but it's all i have been given! Note that the Loxodon warhammer can be used by other races, not just giants. This Implies that the hammer and therefore the Loxodons are not automatically Large! If you don't think there is much of an argument one way or the other then why do you keep pushing for an automatic size of large.
6) I did not ask for any random large race. This Post is about Loxodons and their conversion for D&D. And if you think criticizing is me saying that we should simply disagree and trying to move on... I have nothing to say to that. You are so far off the definition of criticizing I will not entertain a flame war. And nice jab about me not creating, good thing i wasn't the one who took the time to create a Stat block, Paragon class and a Prestige class. Edit: I see you copy-pasted me and then made a few changes. Oh look you even claim at the top that YOU have been challenged to make the race and then ask people to laugh at it.
For Just to Browse;
7) No. Large size and +6 Str means that without feats or special abilities you can have a character with 12 levels of NPC warrior and a Str of 25 (18 +4 for race + 3 for 12 HD) without Magic weilding a 3d6+10 melee weapon at reach with a +4 on oppsed Str checks to boot (not to mention Intimidate bonuses and +4 to break objects) and this all before magic bonuses to Str, feats, Or items with no level adjust when large size by itself is listed as a level adjust worthy quality for races. This property is not my opinion, is is that of WOTC.
8) Forcing them into a +0 LA role, is not a justification of nerfing them. I created a stat block which represented them as they are portrayed, not just what I could feasibly get away with. I think it's just fine to use the Krynn Minotaur as is, and just say it looks like an elephant. But that is not what I am doing!
9) The addendum: Your'e posts have been about making them large because you think they should be one specific size. I then asked for a large Loxodon race and you simply stripped it down to a generic elephant humanoid but also started them at medium. Where is the logic in this when the impetus for this conversion was you saying they should START large?!
10) You claim I am being insulting?! You told me to relax when I was merely apologizing, You typed in all caps, you called me snippy, You accused me of making up numbers when I clearly used the standard model, You state that I made 1 post which was not a blatant accusation (Show me an accusation period! was it when i said you left off NA, Mm... no that's true, was it the next sentence where I said "I think we simply have to disagree," ah no; It's the one statement that i made where I said it seems like your'e just making an elephant guy, But you admit you haven't read about them, don't think an argument can be made one way or the other about their size and listed your'e reasoning for keeping them +0 LA so as to make sure DMM isn't penalized and you sacrificed NA specifically to keep them down! Not because they deserve it or because you have evidence, just because you want it to be that way!). Please tell me I'm wrong. I will then quote what you have already written and place it in nice bullet points for your reading pleasure.

Edit: I have read your entry. Again all you did was put some abilities together while dropping out things which would actually make them a Loxodon of +1 LA.

Just to Browse
2012-08-04, 03:20 AM
This post has been cut.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-04, 05:16 AM
To Just (See above bold sections);
If you are not arguing on Blues side why are you responding to my posts to him? If you are not in agreement then you can change you from #10 to blue and ignore #9 as I was lumping both of you into one side of the disagreement.

About #7; I don't think you read that right. I am saying that what I listed is what you would get from your race which is above and beyond what is balanced for no LA. Any abuse of rules or feats or anything that comes close to what you listed as basic, can also be done with your race only bigger and stronger.
Monk?! where did that come from? Why would a monk lose proficiency with unarmed attacks? All races are automatically proficient with any natural attacks they have. Are you really trying to classify a punch as non-natural? The Monk entry even says you can treat their unarmed attack as natural or manufactured.

Just to Browse
2012-08-04, 06:21 AM
This post has been cut.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-04, 08:19 AM
1) Stop shouting. I already mentioned It; Loxodon Peacekeeper! And I can't give it much credence since the image appears distorted and off kilter.
You mentioned that you where using it as inspiration for one of your abilities, not that it was the second picture you where using to measure size. And as far as I can see there's nothing in that picture at all to compare the loxo to.
I admitted there is not much evidence for them being large. You seem to be arguing that all the evidence points to them being medium. It is my opinion that they evidence you have presented me with is not very good. This is not an attack on you, I recognize that there aren't very many good pictures. I just think it leaves open the possibility they are mostly large-sized.


2) All adults are 1 size category? Yeah if that race happens to fall in between the convenient double-double size they use. But if they are between 7 and 9 feet tall they would occupy 2 size categories and i have listed both!
Ok, what other race covers 2 size categories then? I admit it might be possible, but it would certainly be unusual, and probably a little awkward to keep track of. Height is not the only determining factor for size, and it is not absolute.
For the sake of simplicity and balance, I would suggest you use 1 size category, whatever that is. You can still have some members of the race grow a foot or two taller and a couple hundred pounds heavier, sort of like how a professional football or basketball player would be at the upper end of the spectrum for humans.



3) I'm not making up numbers. I'm extrapolating values based on given evidence (i.e. An Elephant dropping down to 7 feet tall). By your example a Loxodon could only be 11 or 5.5 feet tall, and me doing the math to make them anything else is making up numbers.

4) In Bold for your benefit;
quote*snip*unquote

Again, I'm not a mindreader; if it helps, you can even pretend I'm mentally deficient. But posts usually work best if you spell out what you mean in far more detail than you think is necessary. You didn't say "here is my math" you said "this is what a huge creature becoming large would weigh", and what you said and what you meant where in fact two different things. I responded with "doesn't seem that way to me, here's why".
We're not actually discussing elephants; I mentioned them as a comparison of the thick-bodied figure, the opposite of how elves are unnaturally thin. Loxodons are a fictional race of elephant-like creatures, so I'm certain there is room to play around with the numbers. I mentioned 500 pounds because that is the approximate cutoff between medium and large characters. If adult loxodons start at 500 pounds and go up from there, then they I think they are better candidates for large than medium.

If a 7-ft tall minotaur that weighs 700 pounds can be a large creature, can't you have a 7-8 ft. tall loxodon that is also counted as large?


5) All evidence presented is all the evidence WOTC has given. If I was doing this from scratch I would give more. *snip* If you don't think there is much of an argument one way or the other then why do you keep pushing for an automatic size of large.
I think comparing relative power and toughness from MtG cards is a difficult system to base your stats on; they tend to be all over the place. Looking at a few giants, however, they mostly seem to be slightly more powerful than loxodons (in the 4-5 range instead of 3-4). Most MtG giant are also GINORMOUS! Here's one (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/cards/13319.jpg). Looking at the ankle-high people scurrying around in the background I would say that's not a Large creature; I don't even think that's a Huge creature. That giant is frackin Gargantuan!
As far as I know, there are NO equipment cards in MtG that limit what kind of creatures they can be attached to. I could equip No-Dachi (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=75265&type=card) to my Denizen of the Deep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=135250&type=card) and no one would complain at all. This is a non-argument as far as I am concerned.

I keep pushing for large size because I think it would be a good fit for the race, both in terms of balance and flavor. And I keep responding to your posts because you keep raising issues that need to be addressed, and bacause I have questions that need answering.


6) And if you think criticizing is me saying that we should simply disagree and trying to move on... I have nothing to say to that. You are so far off the definition of criticizing I will not entertain a flame war. And nice jab about me not creating, good thing i wasn't the one who took the time to create a Stat block, Paragon class and a Prestige class. Edit: I see you copy-pasted me and then made a few changes. Oh look you even claim at the top that YOU have been challenged to make the race and then ask people to laugh at it.

Ok, whoa there! You need to stop and take a deep breath because you completely mis-understood what I wrote. I said that creating original ideas was difficult to compliment your attempt. Way back in my very first post I admitted that I liked it, that it was a good, original idea, and that I had no problem with the vast majority of what you proposed.

I made a few jokes in my thread because I was posting at 2 a.m. and I tend to get a little silly when I'm tired, and because I wanted to keep this light-hearted. I am not trying to ignite a flame-war over SRS BNZS! If you request it of me, I will change the introduction.



I did not ask for any random large race. This Post is about Loxodons and their conversion for D&D.
Edit: I have read your entry. Again all you did was put some abilities together while dropping out things which would actually make them a Loxodon of +1 LA.
I was intentionally trying to keep it similar to what you had written, since those where obviously the characteristics that you felt best represented what a loxodon should be.
He's big and tough, with natural armor, a racial bonuses to listen checks and a preference for spirituality in class choice.
I gave him a slower speed, some skill-check penalties, and a racial phobia to counter the benefits of large size and reach, because I was trying to keep the LA down. What am I missing that makes a loxodon feel like a loxodon?
You asked what I thought a Large-sized, LA +1 loxodon should look like; this is my answer.


One last time: I like what you did. I am not out to "prove" you wrong. I just think loxodons would work well as a large race.
Please keep all this in mind when you read my comments.

Edit: I have altered my other thread slightly; I did not intend to be offensive. I apolopgize for writing the intro in way that implied that's what I was aiming for.

toapat
2012-08-04, 11:09 AM
It was you and the other poster, toapat, who seemed to be stuck as height as the end-all-and-be-all factor for determining size. I merely wanted to point out that there was room for overlap and not every race had to meet those exact criteria, especially if it was near the border of size categories.

i wasnt arguing that size makes the loxodon smaller then large, i was saying that yes, Loxodons are definitely large creatures, and that they should be over 7 feet tall. the thing is, that loxodon in the azorious senate is hunched over, we can see that from crossrefferencing the loxodon kidnapped to mirrodin.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-05, 04:25 AM
Yes, you're getting something very minimal and not very effective, and it comes from your race. I mean, even if you have some sort of frightening fear of +6 Strength and -1 to hit / AC at the point where races that give bonus spells and +1 DC to the save-or-lose spells of tier five casters, then it's your balance point that's off. If you could show me why +6 Strength is dangerous, instead of just shouting that it is, maybe I could reason this out, but your argument is literally that it looks scary and you don't like it. You're not getting a size bonus, you're not getting big damage boost, you're not getting any world-rending power.


How am I yelling? I typed that quite calmly. It is not just +6 Str. It's +6 Str and Large size for no adjust. If you "really" don't already know then I will spell out what that means;
On top of the +6 Str which easily makes up for -1 Attk/AC, you gain +4 on grapple, +4 on trip attempts, +4 on Bull rush, +4 Disarm, +4 on rolls made to smash/break objects (Including sunder & Breaking down dungeon doors), +4 on Intimidate, A simple D12 greataxe can be up sized to 3d6 (along with big damage hikes for other weapons too), Reach of ten feet which jumps to 20 ft with a reach weapon (Talk about crowd control), and last and probably least in some peoples opinions, but it still warrants a mention; because you are 10 ft tall with a ten foot reach you can attack flying targets 20 feet in the air without even jumping, but could easily make jump checks too as you suffer no penalty to jumps for being 800 pounds or even 2000 lbs for that matter. Grab out a reach weapon and those pesky dragons that think they can hover above your party breathing doom down from on high have mister two tusks to deal with.
All that and no adjust... just because your 12th level. I have news for you... being 12th level means that you also get to do everything that the simple half orc can do at 12th level but with the benefits listed above built in for free.



The unarmed attack is explicitly exempted from that and doesn't count as a natural attack in the combat section, and the PHB says that players are non-proficient with their unarmed strikes. Thus, with no listed proficiency in the monk class, the monk isn't proficient. Thus getting the WotC-must-not-have-intended-it treatment you're giving my material. :smallconfused:
Really?! If you wanna use that kind of reasoning then Dwarves can only see 60ft and only see in black and white. They are listed as having darkvison and so can see 60 feet even in pitch black, but the rules don't specifically say they also have normal vision! And while we're at it let's have rogue's use tower shields to hide behind; granting them a chance to sneak attack the guy they're standing right in front of because the game doesn't say we can't.
This isn't even common sense rulings it just obvious. There does not need to be a special rule spelling out monks can punch you any more than they need to make a rule telling us that if your arm falls off you can't still use the hand.
And that's assuming they didn't mention under the monks entry that their unarmed attack can be treated as natural or manufactured.


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured
weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects
that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural
weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).
Unless you think that being proficient with your strike doesn't count as an enhancing effect, or perhaps you skipped the effect part and thought only spells counted, or maybe your definition of improve has nothing to do with removing a -4 penalty (maybe in your games penalties on rolls are good or something).

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-05, 05:16 AM
You mentioned that you where using it as inspiration for one of your abilities, not that it was the second picture you where using to measure size. And as far as I can see there's nothing in that picture at all to compare the loxo to.
I admitted there is not much evidence for them being large. You seem to be arguing that all the evidence points to them being medium. It is my opinion that they evidence you have presented me with is not very good. This is not an attack on you, I recognize that there aren't very many good pictures. I just think it leaves open the possibility they are mostly large-sized.


Ok, what other race covers 2 size categories then? I admit it might be possible, but it would certainly be unusual, and probably a little awkward to keep track of. Height is not the only determining factor for size, and it is not absolute.
For the sake of simplicity and balance, I would suggest you use 1 size category, whatever that is. You can still have some members of the race grow a foot or two taller and a couple hundred pounds heavier, sort of like how a professional football or basketball player would be at the upper end of the spectrum for humans.




Again, I'm not a mindreader; if it helps, you can even pretend I'm mentally deficient. But posts usually work best if you spell out what you mean in far more detail than you think is necessary. You didn't say "here is my math" you said "this is what a huge creature becoming large would weigh", and what you said and what you meant where in fact two different things. I responded with "doesn't seem that way to me, here's why".
We're not actually discussing elephants; I mentioned them as a comparison of the thick-bodied figure, the opposite of how elves are unnaturally thin. Loxodons are a fictional race of elephant-like creatures, so I'm certain there is room to play around with the numbers. I mentioned 500 pounds because that is the approximate cutoff between medium and large characters. If adult loxodons start at 500 pounds and go up from there, then they I think they are better candidates for large than medium.

If a 7-ft tall minotaur that weighs 700 pounds can be a large creature, can't you have a 7-8 ft. tall loxodon that is also counted as large?


I think comparing relative power and toughness from MtG cards is a difficult system to base your stats on; they tend to be all over the place. Looking at a few giants, however, they mostly seem to be slightly more powerful than loxodons (in the 4-5 range instead of 3-4). Most MtG giant are also GINORMOUS! Here's one (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/cards/13319.jpg). Looking at the ankle-high people scurrying around in the background I would say that's not a Large creature; I don't even think that's a Huge creature. That giant is frackin Gargantuan!
As far as I know, there are NO equipment cards in MtG that limit what kind of creatures they can be attached to. I could equip No-Dachi (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=75265&type=card) to my Denizen of the Deep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=135250&type=card) and no one would complain at all. This is a non-argument as far as I am concerned.

I keep pushing for large size because I think it would be a good fit for the race, both in terms of balance and flavor. And I keep responding to your posts because you keep raising issues that need to be addressed, and bacause I have questions that need answering.



Ok, whoa there! You need to stop and take a deep breath because you completely mis-understood what I wrote. I said that creating original ideas was difficult to compliment your attempt. Way back in my very first post I admitted that I liked it, that it was a good, original idea, and that I had no problem with the vast majority of what you proposed.

I made a few jokes in my thread because I was posting at 2 a.m. and I tend to get a little silly when I'm tired, and because I wanted to keep this light-hearted. I am not trying to ignite a flame-war over SRS BNZS! If you request it of me, I will change the introduction.



I was intentionally trying to keep it similar to what you had written, since those where obviously the characteristics that you felt best represented what a loxodon should be.
He's big and tough, with natural armor, a racial bonuses to listen checks and a preference for spirituality in class choice.
I gave him a slower speed, some skill-check penalties, and a racial phobia to counter the benefits of large size and reach, because I was trying to keep the LA down. What am I missing that makes a loxodon feel like a loxodon?
You asked what I thought a Large-sized, LA +1 loxodon should look like; this is my answer.


One last time: I like what you did. I am not out to "prove" you wrong. I just think loxodons would work well as a large race.
Please keep all this in mind when you read my comments.


1) There is a girl right next to him. I do not seem to be arguing that they are medium. I have specifically stated that I believe they fall into the 7 -9 ft range. Making them range from (say it with me; it's becoming my catch phrase) - medium (but can be large).
2) Really?!?!? Dragons. They're in the Monster manual, MM II, Dragonomicon, and where else... oh yeah the game is named after them. Also almost half of every monster in the MM can be advanced to larger sizes without resorting to age categories like dragons. And PrC's, like the one listed for my creation.
3) I have already acknowledged the extra steps and mentioned the math involved. And I think having a 7 ft Loxodon that weighs 300 lbs is fine. It was you that implied they should not be so light specifically because you were comparing them to elephants. I merely pointed out that your assumption about their weight was in error, and now you have become fixated on this; making two separate posts about how you were merely quoting me after i admitted my omission. What are you attempting to accomplish by bringing it back to this. Let me say it again; I made a mistake and omitted something I thought you would inherently understand, I am sorry for your confusion but will not continue to clarify the same thing.
4) I already mentioned that this is not a Hard/fast rule for anything. But for your information the difference between a 1/1 and a 2/2 is a lowly 35lb goblin and an 800lb grizzly bear. I am basing my info off all of the cards as a whole, not exceptions to the power/tough conventions. All of them looked at under an appraising eye.
5) What i would request is that you go back in time and not post such an inflammatory thing to begin with. Make all the claims about 2 am you want, you still put it up for people to laugh at while giving not only the link to my creation, but intimating that my argument about the elephants size is also some how amusing (it was not a debate, I am simply right about their size. Sidestep that all you want it doesn't change the math).
6) Dropping off obvious abilities they should have just to cram them into a neat +1 LA, is not being true to the source. I find it hard to believe that even as much as you disagree with me, you would think a Loxodon (being true to MTG) should actually have the same Str as a Human or elf. If you "Truly" believe that Loxodons should be forced into a +1 Large LA with no Str bonus and claustrophobia (and not, as i suspect, as a pure balancing act to help justify LA +1) then we cannot agree.

I am tired of arguing. I know that people who would have otherwise commented have run screaming the other way as a result of these "conversations." If all you guys care about is making them large then call me a hack and move on, but please stop insulting/accusing and yelling at me.

Just to Browse
2012-08-05, 05:37 AM
This post has been cut.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-05, 06:16 AM
To Just;
I used the half-orc because it's a base race that receives a Str bump. Tips you off to what? The race as presented is from... you know what, no! You know what I'm doing. I have spelled it out multiple times. As for RAW;

No.

If you want to use RAW, which WOTC explicitly says not to do, to justify anything; then it's your fault if a games power base comes off kilter. And my point (which I already stated but will do so again) is that anything you can do with maneuvers or levels or feats can be done with this race PLUS still have the advantages I listed. With no LA there is no loss. None. You can simply stack these to your hearts content FOR FREE. Claiming that multiple levels and/or feats could be used to get something similar but not actually as good proves my point. Thank you. Apparently if I make a race with Power attack/Endurance/Diehard/& Toughness, I can simply stack that on to any other racial template, because according to you they can all be easily replicated so they don't matter. Or to put it another way; this race doesn't require a level adjust because other characters could use their levels to catch up to this with just a few say; 3 or 4 feats (no sorry, almost catch up to them). Free Feats for everyone! I now realize that i do not need to respond to anything you say ever again.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-05, 08:19 AM
There is a girl right next to him.
wow, I never noticed her before; she's almost completely eclipsed by the loxodon. :smalleek:

When I wrote the line that compared loxodons to Dumbo I meant that everyone laughed at him at first, but when he learned to fly he kicked all kinds of ass; in other words, he was actually quite impressive. I guess you didn't inherently understand that.

As you said, any additional reply is just going to get further off topic, so I'll make this my last post. If you want me to address any specific point, send me a message. I regretably cannot go back in time and change the past. I again apologize for posting something which could be easily read as being spiteful; that was never my intent.



I still think that large size is a more interesting base feature than +6 Str, but I thank you very much for the idea of Loxodons as a race in D&D, I will attribute any future developments on that front to your inspiration.

Just to Browse
2012-08-05, 07:17 PM
This post has been cut.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-06, 07:57 PM
I didn't say I would ignore you. I said I did not need to respond. ... as for making stuff up; You have now made 2 posts claiming the same thing. That multiple feats can almost catch up, and since you don't want to build your character in that path, those feats must be pointless. And yet again you have forgotten that under this race you do not even need those feats to accomplish the same thing. And I love how you assume that if you don't try it, your enemy wont either. I can only assume that from your examples combat for your games must be simply smashing each other in the face until someone runs out of hitpoints. I love getting Know-it-all players who think their character is a God, only to to have a low level bad guy trip them with improved trip and then disarm them with the extra attack effectively removing the threat of Mr. [email protected]$$ in a single round of combat, and if he did it with an open hand he's now holding your weapon at your throat waiting for you to provoke an attack.
Of course this Loxodon would have 6 points higher than an equal PC race on both of these opposed rolls for free, plus all the other stuff.:smallsmile:

Addendum:
1) When did I say you should work around rules? Who's making up stuff now?
2) What did I say that I supposedly claimed you said?
Seriously... If you're this obvious at trolling I'm not even upset anymore. This recursive logic is hilarious.

Just to Browse
2012-08-09, 12:41 AM
This post has been cut.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-09, 05:07 PM
1) Takes into consideration how D&D is played? As if your way is the only way. This is just proving my point that you think there is one way to play.
2) That is your opinion which you are then using as fact. Just because you believe it is insignificant does not make it true. A 6 point difference is a 30% modifier on a d20, how is that insignificant? You want to call this a debate. Fine. Blacks law dictionary defines 20% as significant. Your personal opinion on significance requires a citing of some kind of source.
3) You never made a point about the feats being useless because you don't need these bonuses, oh... look what I found;


And my point (which I have already stated but will do so again) is that either those maneuvers are useless (disarm, sunder) or a level 12 build will already be so good at their maneuver that getting +2 more than a regular orc means nothing. So their advantages are either in useless abilities or in things where they don't need more advantages. The bonus you get FOR FREE is so minute and unimportant that it might as well NOT EXIST. The reason strength bonuses scale is to give large size at an appropriate time and provide some more power attack damage.
4) Why are you assuming a lower level bad-guy is alone? This argument does not even make sense, because yes a 6th level fighter with these feats could take out a 12th PC, but he doesn't have to succeed every time. Just once is enough to prove the value of +6 Str and large size. A 6th level fighter with a str of only 20 can easily have a +12 to make a touch attack for the trip, and because he has improved disarm he gets a +4 on the opposed attack roll but the 12th level fighter takes a -4 penalty for being on the ground! Even if you're playing a 12th level character with a str of 28 and weapon focus you would be rolling +18 vs the low level dude's +16 (not including yours/or the low level guy's magic bonus). That means you only have a 10% better chance of not losing your weapon to a fighter 6 levels below you without an enhancement bonus to his Str. Just think about someone closer to your CR. This without using a weapon like a flail which grants a +2 bonus and so would make the low level guys roll even with the higher one.
5) Dwarf and multiple legs are not in your build. And if they are using a locked gauntlet you can just sunder instead of disarm (Another point in my favor as large gains yet another +4 on this too!). Would you like to make any other points for me?
6) Throwing in (not RAW) does not help your case when WoTC specifically lays it out that you should not treat the base rules as a bible. Using common sense to reason that a rogue cannot hide right in front of a guy with his own shield, or that a monk doesn't suffer a -4 to hit with his unarmed attacks is not working around the rules. It's common sense. And the examples of combat used by WoTC bear this out. So again; not working around anything. Where is there an official rule stating that characters receive a -4 on unarmed attacks?
7) Really? No elaboration is necessary, you made a very blunt statement;


So you make up something that I never said, claim I said it, call it dumb, and then use that as a rationale to ignore me.

I think that's called a strawman.
8) Your'e not going to convince me that you're not a troll. With basic math I've refuted everything you've said and yet you still claim to be confused by my statements. Maybe if you typed like a 12 year old having a secret text conversation on his cell phone I would be fooled into thinking you believe what your'e typing, but I can see that you are intelligent enough to make only a few typo's, and you can use punctuation.

toapat
2012-08-09, 05:39 PM
6) Throwing in (not RAW) does not help your case when WoTC specifically lays it out that you should not treat the base rules as a bible. Using common sense to reason that a rogue cannot hide right in front of a guy with his own shield, or that a monk doesn't suffer a -4 to hit with his unarmed attacks is not working around the rules. It's common sense. Where does it say anyone suffers a -4 to hit with unarmed attacks. because this interpretation certainly doesn't hold up to examples of play.

both of these are wrong

A shield, when used as cover, provides cover relative to its type, but it is provided as soft cover, which means that it does not obstruct line of sight.

Any weapon you are non-proficient with, is a weapon with the Light descriptor, or that is improvised, receives a -4 stacking competence penalty. a Weapon that you are not proficient with and that is light has a -8 penalty to attack. Fists are Light weapons, and even when proficient, you suffer a -4 penalty with them.

Anyone who says Monks are non-proficient RAW with fists hasnt read unarmed strikes.

Anyone who thinks Monks are good at unarmed combat ignores the fact that the best weapon they can obtain in such a way are spiked gauntlets, which they are not proficient with, are fixed at 1d6 damage, and absolute hell to use because they take up one of your most important slots.

Siosilvar
2012-08-09, 05:56 PM
both of these are wrong

A shield, when used as cover, provides cover relative to its type, but it is provided as soft cover, which means that it does not obstruct line of sight.

Any weapon you are non-proficient with, is a weapon with the Light descriptor, or that is improvised, receives a -4 stacking competence penalty. a Weapon that you are not proficient with and that is light has a -8 penalty to attack. Fists are Light weapons, and even when proficient, you suffer a -4 penalty with them.

Anyone who says Monks are non-proficient RAW with fists hasnt read unarmed strikes.

Anyone who thinks Monks are good at unarmed combat ignores the fact that the best weapon they can obtain in such a way are spiked gauntlets, which they are not proficient with, are fixed at 1d6 damage, and absolute hell to use because they take up one of your most important slots.

What.

...

What.

I cannot think of any way to claim any of that as RAW.
Only tower shields have rules to provide cover (total cover, which you can technically use to hide). Technically, you can also hide behind a plane of glass, because it provides cover.
Cover deals with line of effect, not line of sight.
Light weapons don't take a -4 penalty.
Monks have a specific list of weapons they're proficient with, the unarmed strike is not among them, and the humanoid type doesn't provide proficiency with natural weapons by default.
Monk unarmed damage is far better than the 1d4 damage spiked gauntlet.

toapat
2012-08-09, 06:33 PM
I cannot think of any way to claim any of that as RAW.
Only tower shields have rules to provide cover (total cover, which you can technically use to hide).
Cover deals with line of effect, not line of sight.
Light weapons don't take a -4 penalty.
Monks have a specific list of weapons they're proficient with, the unarmed strike is not among them, and the humanoid type doesn't provide proficiency with natural weapons by default.
Monk unarmed damage is far better than the 1d4 damage spiked gauntlet.

No, tower Shields provide Soft Cover EQUAL to Total Cover. All shields can be used as soft cover (The value here is entirely based on DM Fiat though for non Towershields).
Soft cover can not be used for hide checks or reflex saves, it provides a +4 ac bonus vs ranged. you can use a shield as soft cover.
yes, they do, its refferenced multiple times in the SRD
/conceed, Improved unarmed strikes was clearly a casualty of an editor along the line, similar to how Improved Precise Shot makes blurr useless.
you cant enchant your fists, 2d10 is only so good when you can get 4d6 on gauntlets.

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-09, 06:55 PM
Unarmed attacks have a special entry in the combat section which spells out the penalties associated with them (Taking a -4 is not included). Read Improved unarmed strike. It specifically lists the normal penalties suffered without this feat (Taking a -4 is not included). The combat section takes precedence over an equipment reference (this is used to summarize damage, unless you think you actually have to equip your unarmed strike?!), especially since most printings of the book show a misprint right on that line (damage is not 1d33, it's 1d3 superscript 3). You can choose to interpret the rules to make the monk non-proficient, but then you can choose to ignore anything you want. That doesn't mean you're right.
Note: An editor may have missed spelling out that a character does not take a -4 to unarmed attacks, but I'm just gonna use what's written (no need to clarify for me).

Siosilvar
2012-08-09, 07:17 PM
No, tower Shields provide Soft Cover EQUAL to Total Cover. All shields can be used as soft cover (The value here is entirely based on DM Fiat though for non Towershields).
Soft cover can not be used for hide checks or reflex saves, it provides a +4 ac bonus vs ranged. you can use a shield as soft cover.
yes, they do, its refferenced multiple times in the SRD
/conceed, Improved unarmed strikes was clearly a casualty of an editor along the line, similar to how Improved Precise Shot makes blurr useless.
you cant enchant your fists, 2d10 is only so good when you can get 4d6 on gauntlets.


However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.

Unless you have a reference elsewhere stating this is soft cover, I'm forced to disagree with you. Likewise for other shields being used as cover (which I would allow in my games, but is not RAW as far as I can find).

Besides which, "soft cover" is specifically "creatures, even your enemies, [that] provide you with cover against ranged attacks".


Give me your reference for light weapons taking a -4 penalty to hit. I am about six nines of certain that such a reference doesn't exist; the only thing I can think of is the -4 penalty to resist disarm and sunder, and the ability to use them in grapples at -4.


True, you can't enchant your fists in Core (without just using gauntlets...), but if you're going to go that route, why not just use a siangham for all the same enchantments? You can even flurry with it. Spiked gauntlets are definitely not better than a siangham for monks, unless you desperately need both your hands free.


-snip-

Unarmed attacks have a special entry in the combat section which spells out the penalties associated with them, yes. That doesn't mean they don't take a nonproficiency penalty. The rules associated with them are in addition to standard rules. Neither of those places mentions proficiency at all, so I don't see how they could have any bearing on whether or not proficiency affects them.

In any case, this whole thing is completely off topic. How about y'all go back to talking elephants? For what it's worth, I'd make them Medium with Powerful Build, since large-sized PCs are a pain.

Just to Browse
2012-08-09, 07:54 PM
This post has been cut.

toapat
2012-08-09, 08:35 PM
*Shorten*

non-tower shields only grant cover RAW if you animate them, although that limitation just seems stupid.

Its how Total Cover works, you cant target a creature with total cover, you can target something with soft cover though.

I cant remember where i kept seeing that Light weapons have an inherent -4 penalty to wielding them, it wasnt grapple or maneuvers though

Honestly, the best monk weapons are handaxes.

the problem is, its been like this for entire pages, i stopped reading shadowpsycker's posts once i stopped caring to argue with a guy who wont budge from Ravnica as the end-all be-all source for height of the Loxodon.

Just to Browse
2012-08-09, 10:13 PM
Its how Total Cover works, you cant target a creature with total cover, you can target something with soft cover though.

I thought I looked through this ruling before... where does it say that shields give soft cover?

ShadowPsyker
2012-08-09, 11:11 PM
To Just;
1) Look at your own wording; If you believe they will build trip fighters properly, then you try to say you don't play it 1 way. To summarize; if they build them properly (according to you), then there is only one way.
2) I know the range is 20. hence the 30% difference on a +6. Having bonuses like the ones I mention still leaves you with a D20 roll in the end. And my point is that anything a trip fighter can do this build does 6 points better.
3) When did I say you said all feats are useless? It says THE feats. THE feats you referenced so as to make the bonuses supposedly obsolete. Again your'e putting words in my mouth. Sorry to tell you the post is there for everyone to see. Making accusations and then moving on will not work. And yes I will respond to anything else you try to claim, that I never said.
4) Wow. I just showed you mathematically, how a 6th level fighter could scramble your plans (as a joke example to make a point about anything being closer to your level doing much worse, yet you of course skipped over that part), and instead of admitting the math is right you focused on a fight 6 levels lower while using a party of other adventures to save your ass from the low level dude who just gimped you. You want to talk about balance! Saying something is totally fine as long as his friends can come along for the fight too is not an estimate of balance. It's ego run wild. And then again you claim something I did not say. Show me where I said this loxo is OP at low level. Or have you not been paying attention. At 12th level it is worth a Level adjust! And referencing tiers... Yeah like I limit myself to an arbitrary number. My groups play everything on the table (as long as it's actually WoTC and not some 3rd party DP). People who have to split everything into tiers so they can manage them are not experienced enough to be making value judgments. Talk to me when you can make a non-PrC fighter who shreds 20th level mages.
5) 4 lucky rolls in a row? Were you not listening? A LOWER level character could screw up your day with only a 10% variance. And again; claiming that this is an edge-based scenario does not mean you should get things for free. The bonuses stack up to where any number of a dozen different scenarios becomes significantly more likely to land in your favor FOR FREE.
That. Is. A. Level. Adjust.
6) Not listening to you? You are using RAW, I am showing you how WoTC does not want you to do that, but you are still trying to do this and then claiming that they don't know what they're doing so you have to work around them, when they have said YOU DON'T NEED A WORK AROUND! Some things are automatic. Or have you forgotten my severed hand comment? There does not need to be a rule for everything.
7) No I didn't. I pointed out that you thought multiple feats could be used to almost catch up, and then quite plainly made a statement myself about how feats are free (Which they are not, i.e. sarcasm). Tell me; How many extra feats and bonus abilities are worth a LA to you? You have admitted that humans are better than half-orcs which means you know the value of that 1 extra feat.
8) You have not shown me how that bonus does not matter. Perhaps you are unaware of what "Show" means. Because making a claim about how you don't personally think it matters is not proof! I on the other hand did show you the difference with examples and your only come back was "nuh, uh... My friends help me."


to Toapat;
When did I ever say anything was the end all of anything? I have quite specifically said I believe they fall in the 7-9ft range which means medium (but can be large). Never have i claimed to be absolute. Seriously this thing really is my catch phrase now.

Addendum: One thing I completely disagree with is powerful build. Of the few pictures we have, all of them show Loxodon's with weapons proportional to them. This is actually the easiest decision I had to make, and was one of the first things that had popped to mind, but the pictures win on that front.

Just to Browse
2012-08-10, 02:22 AM
All right, you have talked over every single one of my points. I'm done responding, and will remove my comments. Sorry for striving for game balance.

Also, toapat/sio, I think I may have found the -4 penalty for light weapons bit. It's in Step 2 here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder).