Too much emphasis on Rare/Costly Cards in MTG

[Hornstien]

I have noticed lately, lately being after i attended a couple of local Magic the Gathering tournaments, that there is way too much emphasis being placed on rare cards. No matter who I faced or what that person was playing I heard the same thing.

"You should invest in a couple of State name of rare card here. It'll help your deck run better. It'll will make it really powerful."

Now while this advice wouldn't put me into a bad mood normally it came shortly before I asked what everyone else was playing. The answers that I got was what caused the frothing that I'm trying to cure at the present by posting this thread. The decks that the advice givers were running were loaded with rare/legendary/mythic rare cards. Some of these decks apparently carried very specific price tags on them that ranged from $60 dollars to $260 dollars. This BLEW MY MIND. I have a fair sized collection of cards myself and I doubt that I paid $260 dollars for the entire collection!

I asked how was it that these decks were worth so much? Well as I found out the other day, the days of playing decks of mostly common cards, with a few uncommon's and rares to really make a deck pop, has been over for a while.

To say that I was confused was an understatement, especially when I realized that some of the other players there had never even seen some of the more common cards that I would have thought everyone had seen and/or used at one point in time. The true horror of the situation came to me when my brother, playing a blue mill deck, played a Boomerang (http://tntpg.trollandtoad.com/p168114.html) and his opponent asked to see it because they had never seen or heard of the card! They had been playing for a couple of years and did not know what this, in my mind, staple of classic blue power was. I found out that the person had learned from a friend how to play and had been given a few SUPER RARE cards in order to start their collection on the right foot.

From there they went on to tell me that they had researched over the internet different deck types and their strengths and weaknesses. From their they determined what was going to be allowed in this weeks tournament and made a deck by ordering a specific combination of rare, uncommon, and legendary cards to play against the rest of the people at the tournament.

This you might say is not all that bad, maybe it was just because he was a noob, or people will do anything to win. Well all those things may be true, however as I took a census among the other players I soon learned that all but the small group that I had traveled with to the tournament had spent a gross amount on their decks and had less than thirty percent of their decks were made up of commons. Oh and that is after lands have been taken out of the equation.

Well here is where people interested in disagreeing with me will get fuel for their argument. I lost that tournament handily. And with my unwillingness to spend more on one deck then I spent on my entire collection thus far, I highly doubt that I will have any chance of winning any future tournaments. (By the way if you think that I just don't have a lot of cards I have 6 fully developed decks, all well over 60 cards. And I have enough cards left over that I need a box the size of shoe box to put the extras in.)

With all that said I would like to harken back to a simpler time when I first started playing magic, and there was a special variant that I and my friends loved to prescribe to in order to make things as balanced as possible between people who may have had more cards than the rest of us. That is Pauper Magic. Pauper Magic (http://taptowin.blogspot.com/2012/07/magic-on-cheap-look-at-pauper-magic.html) is a variant of regular magic that only allows common cards. Now while I'm sure that this isn't going to be a variant that everyone will immediately want to play, I guarantee that if you try it and read the article above you will find yourself having at least as much fun without the hassle of having to try to keep up with the latest, greatest, and most costly rare cards and their combinations. It is also a great way to get back to the basics of the game and test fundamental mechanics that you may or may not be up on.

Try it and comment, or just comment. Listening out for your responses.

[Ashiel]

Well, I thought I might comment with a quote from a Star City Games article:


Now it’s important to note that there has been a major global economic downturn over the time period in which Magic is experiencing unprecedented growth. At a time when overall discretionary spending is way down, spending on Magic is on the rise. Here’s a few of the reasons I have for this: 1) Magic is cheap: A lot of times, people get fixated on the Jaces, Tarmogoyfs, and Black Lotuses of the world as the indicator of Magic’s costs. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again – casual players (people who rarely play in tournaments, except for maybe prereleases) are largest customer base for Magic, by volume. If you take a look at the thousands of Magic cards out there, you’ll see that the vast majority are low cost ($0.10 - $0.25 each), many products – official and unofficial - allow the acquisition of a lot of cards at once for a low cost (Our 1,000 card collections, Duel Decks, Intro Packs, $0.20 bulk rares, the upcoming Deckbuilder’s Toolkit). If you’re just looking to play Magic, just to play, you can do so for under $10 very easily. Entire formats (pauper) are based on this premise.

Pauper is the format for those who just want to play Magic. It's cheap, inexpensive, and well balanced (from what I've seen). Many competitive players who are very skilled at the game prefer Pauper magic because it exceedingly rare that you or your opponent were outclassed due to card availability rather than skill. In fact, MtG Online has a very large fanbase that plays entirely pauper magic (but I'll tell you, if I was going to pay retail card price for digital cards that may vanish at the drop of a hat, you'd better well believe I'd be playing Pauper :smallannoyed:).

I hear you on the sadness of being befuddled by cards like Boomerang. It's really sad to see some of these folks with these $200 decks who really have little understanding of what they are doing, and instead rely entirely on some combo between their X/Y/X mythic rares to basically auto-win the game if the opponent doesn't currently have the perfect counter for that situation. Often, it requires little skill, and functions more like an algorithm instruction, such as...

Play Birds of Paradise ASAP,
Play Elf that gives T: Add 3 mana to your mana pool, spend only on creatures.
Play Lands.
Play 8+ Mana cost Angels on turn 3.
Win Game.

Things tend to be a bit more interesting in Pauper games. :smallamused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, I thought I might comment with a quote from a Star City Games article:

That doesn't disprove the entirety what was said (although it does clear up stuff about the non-tournament players that he might've just lumped in with the others). Which is that a lot of the players who go to big tournaments specifically buy rarer cards to outfit their decks. It just says CASUAL players, which make up most of the fanbase.

However, you are probably right that the "casual tournament" (players who want to be more serious but can't be pressed for time) players are the ones who do this, and not the serious ones.

[Tengu_temp]

All I can say here is that Wizards of the Coast really like money.

[Squark]

You'd probably be better off posting this in the MTG thread proper.


However, I think you're not looking at the whole picture. Yes, competitive magic is heavily rare based. Fact is, though, while the price has jumped, that's nothing new. In a competitive enviornment, people will always gravitate towards the most powerful cards, and to preserve the health of limited (Sealed and Draft, I mean), cards with unusual, powerful effects tend to be rares. However, you don't have to play competitive magic. To be clear, by competitive I mean PTQs, nationals, etc. These events virtually require you to have your deck fully tricked out, yes, but that's only part of it. Most of the top tier decks do require a fair ammount of skill to play correctly. Control and Combo decks both often require an extensive knowledge of how to respond to a large number of situations, and even Aggro players need to be able to deal with those decks. The "Unskilled player with deck that plays itself" only exists in certain formats, and even then, only actually at lower tiers of competition.

Now, I get the feeling this is coming from an FNM environment. FNM tends to vary wildly in terms of competitiveness, from PTQ training ground, to "Some top decks, but also a fair number of newbies" to "People are still figuring out just how good dual lands are". If top tier decks are bothering you, consider looking for another FNM in your area, that might be less competitive.

Also, kitchen table magic (where, believe it or not, the majority of the game is played) is a lot more fluid. There are casual Vintage games (most with proxies, but occasionally someone is packing an actual set of the power nine), A large legacy and modern crowd, to people who just play whatever is on hand.

Also, to be fair, boomerang has been out of type for a long time, and since it doesn't make the cut in modern or legacy, it basically exists in casual enviornments with people who've been playing five to six years (And frankly, I'll take Into the Roil over boomerang outside of decks that need the tempo of turn two land bounce)

[Ashiel]

That doesn't disprove the entirety what was said (although it does clear up stuff about the non-tournament players that he might've just lumped in with the others). Which is that a lot of the players who go to big tournaments specifically buy rarer cards to outfit their decks. It just says CASUAL players, which make up most of the fanbase.

However, you are probably right that the "casual tournament" (players who want to be more serious but can't be pressed for time) players are the ones who do this, and not the serious ones.

Well I wasn't trying to disprove anything. Sorry if it came off like that. Instead, I was more or less commenting on Pauper magic in general, and noting that in some circles it can be pretty popular. Competitive pauper is one of my favorite methods of playing. I've beaten a few local tournaments with people sporting decks full of mythic rares and such (and my deck has quite a few old rares in it), but lately I've been in love with Pauper.

Pauper->Legacy is just so much fun from what I've seen. Really allows people to get competitive and enjoy tournament spirit and play, while not requiring big fancy expensive decks. You don't see unsportsmanly decks like turn 0-3 win decks in Pauper. At least, not as far as I've seen. The matches tend to be more interesting.

YMMV of course; but I really like it. Also, I felt I needed to post, 'cause I noticed that the OP linked to my blog when noting Pauper magic. :smallredface:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hm... how about, as something that allows people to use rare cards but isn't ridiculous, an alternative to Pauper.

- Maximum of three rare, super rare, mythic rare, anything rarer than uncommon cards
I was originally thinking four, which would be about ten percent of the deck, but then I remembered lands. So I thought two, but no, that seemed too low. So I went with three.
- Maximum eight uncommons
Again, a compromise number. I initially thought six (double the number of rares), but thought it was too low, so I went to ten (nice neat number), but thought it was too high. So I went between them and got eight.

[danzibr]

You'd probably be better off posting this in the MTG thread proper.
Ugh, knew somebody would say it.

I recall making posts asking for pointers on deck building two or three times and they got totally ignored because the people in the MTG thread had their own conversation going. I think it's totally fine making this its own thread.

Anyway...

Yeah, I have a sort of large collection, my most expensive deck being a couple hundred dollars, but I totally see what you mean. The not knowing of Boomerang is sort of comical. Fortunately, the people I play with throw fun decks together. A couple of the guys can make totally devastating decks, but our decks have a variety of power and flavor, sometimes truly janky, and we have a lot of fun with it.

I guess it just depends on how you like to have fun.

[Eldan]

How can you get "a collection" for less than 260$? I mean, it's been a few years since I played, but isn't a booster about 12$ already?

[tyckspoon]

How can you get "a collection" for less than 260$? I mean, it's been a few years since I played, but isn't a booster about 12$ already?

A single booster goes about $4 retail, or if you want a lot of a single (currently in print) set you can get a full booster shipment box for about $90-100, which makes them less than $3 per. And that's if you want to do the treasure-hunt thing and get into the excitement/hope of pulling some of of the big valuable rares from that set; if you're just looking to gather the unfavored cards of a set, you can get all the commons/uncommons/rares from it quite cheaply- if you know a game store that deals in individual cards, they will probably sell you less-valuable cards at something like ten for a buck.

[Artanis]

I miss Chronicles and Fallen Empires :smallfrown:

[Eldan]

A single booster goes about $4 retail, or if you want a lot of a single (currently in print) set you can get a full booster shipment box for about $90-100, which makes them less than $3 per. And that's if you want to do the treasure-hunt thing and get into the excitement/hope of pulling some of of the big valuable rares from that set; if you're just looking to gather the unfavored cards of a set, you can get all the commons/uncommons/rares from it quite cheaply- if you know a game store that deals in individual cards, they will probably sell you less-valuable cards at something like ten for a buck.

Ah. Ladies and Gentlemen, Swiss Retail Prices in Action. I had a look, boosters are 8-10$ a piece, right now. Guess I'd buy online these days if I still played. Of course, then I'd probably pay a small fortune for shipping by air and import taxes.

[Shades of Gray]

Maybe it's an Australia thing. A single booster is about $4 in Toronto, and some stores do 3 for $10.

[Gnoman]

Quite a number of people will go down to the game shops around here, buy a dozen boosters, and leave with one or two cards. The shop simply puts the rest in a display case with 10 cent price stickers on it and makes a fortune.

[Ashiel]

I won't re-address it here, since it might derail the discussion as to the requirement of lots of rares for fun competitive play, but on the subject of card prices it's one of the reasons I love Pauper Magic. In my blog, I've posted two simple Pauper decks and their prices if you ordered all the cards individually off the internet:
A Pauper Bone Deck
Since I'm currently planning a pauper tournament of some sort in the near future (and because they're a cheap way to begin a great Magic the Gathering deck), I decided to build a pauper deck list that revolves around using skeletons and a few other choice black cards to you advantages, to create a fun theme deck that will keep your opponents on their toes.

Modified, this deck can serve as the basis for non-pauper decks as well.

Creatures
Drudge Skeletons x4 ($0.16)
Cinderbones x4 ($0.56)
Duty-Bound Dead x4 ($0.40)
Unworthy Dead x4 ($0.44)
Lim-Dul's Highguard x4 ($0.32)
Enchantments/Artifacts
Dark Favor x 3 ($0.33)
Endless Scream x3 ($0.75)
Midnight Covenant x2 ($0.20)
Necromancer's Magemark x3 ($0.45)
Blight Sickle x3 ($0.57)
Instants/Sorceries
Murder x3 ($0.75)
Last Gasp x3 ($0.75)
Lands
Swamp x20 ($2.20)

Total Cards 60. Deck Cost $7.88


A Sample Pauper Magic Deck
This is a classic white-weenie deck built for Pauper Magic (and total cost of the cards).
Buy this Card at Magic the Gathering Fanatic
Creatures
Crossbow Infantry x4 ($0.20)
Angelic Page x4 ($0.32)
Ardent Recruit x4 ($0.60)
Attended Knight x4 ($0.76)
Infantry Veteran x4 ($0.16)
Cloud Crusader x4 ($0.32)
Enchantments/Artifacts
Holy Strength x3 ($0.15)
Arrest x2 ($0.28)
Brilliant Halo x4 ($0.56)
Conviction x4 ($0.44)
Floating Shield x3 ($0.12)
Lands
Plains x20 ($2.20)

Total cost to build the deck, ordering every card in it: $6.11.
Eat that Jace... <(^-^)>

It's one of the reasons I love pauper magic. I have no idea as to how the above prices would convert to overseas markets though. $10 a booster is extreme. I don't think anyone would play it around here if it were that expensive. :smalleek:

[Eldan]

Quite a number of people will go down to the game shops around here, buy a dozen boosters, and leave with one or two cards. The shop simply puts the rest in a display case with 10 cent price stickers on it and makes a fortune.

Really? Wow. On several accounts. First of all, I don't think I ever met people who would just throw away cards. I also don't think I ever saw a shop where they wouldn't just tell people to take their trash away with them in such a case.

How much money do these people left over? I mean, yo ucan still trade bad cards.

[Ashiel]

Really? Wow. On several accounts. First of all, I don't think I ever met people who would just throw away cards. I also don't think I ever saw a shop where they wouldn't just tell people to take their trash away with them in such a case.

How much money do these people left over? I mean, yo ucan still trade bad cards.

I used to sell magic card boosters (buy wholesale, sell 'em, etc) at discount prices. I had one buyer who would buy them from be (I was selling them really cheap), open each pack, take the rares out, and then give me the rest of them. I was like :smallconfused:.

[Traab]

Its all about power gaming. People want the best possible collection of cards, so, much like when I was into yugioh, the inclination is to constantly hunt for those really rare cards, and dump a weak one once you get it. You just get a card with 1800 attack points you can summon right away? Time to get rid of that crappy card with 1200 attack points and no special abilities. Bang, my deck is now that much stronger.

Now, that being said, I was never the type to spend huge amounts of cash on a single card, but I would spend what money i did have on boosters hoping to get lucky. Even if I didnt get some incredible card, I could still get better ones than I had, so I considered it worth it. But yeah, some people are so obssessed with being the best that they will go to absurd lengths. Im sure if i tried hard enough, I could figure out some insane deck full of crazy rare cards that would let me steam roll some poor punk who tried to build a deck the old fashioned way, but I dont want to win THAT much.

I know, its not mtg, but its similar, damn I loved my deck, it was a total shutdown deck, with dozens of trap and magic cards to keep my opponent from summoning anything, and packed with 1600-2000 attack power monster cards that could be summoned right away without sacrifices that kept me on the offensive. As well as numerous attack boosting item cards in case my opponent did manage to get something big on the field. Heh, I think the most fun I ever had was managing to summon a 4 star monster that, after I finished boosting it, managed to have just over 4000 attack points.

[Gnoman]

Really? Wow. On several accounts. First of all, I don't think I ever met people who would just throw away cards. I also don't think I ever saw a shop where they wouldn't just tell people to take their trash away with them in such a case.


Why would they do that? They make four or five times as much on the loose cards as they do on the boosters, and it's pure profit.

[tyckspoon]

I used to sell magic card boosters (buy wholesale, sell 'em, etc) at discount prices. I had one buyer who would buy them from be (I was selling them really cheap), open each pack, take the rares out, and then give me the rest of them. I was like :smallconfused:.

Your standard common or uncommon is worth maybe a dollar, if it's a really good one. Most of them are around a dime to a quarter. A good rare (one worth building a deck around, say, or a key counter-card against a popular archetype) can be $5 to $20 pretty easily.. this behavior makes more sense when you look at it from the perspective of 'how much value does this booster add to my trade portfolio?' The rares are items people might actually want. The commons and uncommons are readily available stuff that clogs up your folders and makes them more awkward to carry around.

[Eldan]

Why would they do that? They make four or five times as much on the loose cards as they do on the boosters, and it's pure profit.

The only store I know that sells magic cards is a bookstore that has one box of boosters under the counter. I don't think they would go to the effort, is all. And I'm not sure they'd realize they could even do it.

[Ashiel]

Your standard common or uncommon is worth maybe a dollar, if it's a really good one. Most of them are around a dime to a quarter. A good rare (one worth building a deck around, say, or a key counter-card against a popular archetype) can be $5 to $20 pretty easily.. this behavior makes more sense when you look at it from the perspective of 'how much value does this booster add to my trade portfolio?' The rares are items people might actually want. The commons and uncommons are readily available stuff that clogs up your folders and makes them more awkward to carry around.

Well, I wasn't complaining about it. I sold cards, and then got free cards. Seemed like win/win for me. :smallsmile:

[Joran]

I used to play Magic back when it first started and through high school. I came back into the world of CCGs a little out of college with World of Warcraft CCG, but then quit. I didn't like feeling my cards were getting out of date, nor having the constraint of having to buy more and more cards to fill out a deck. My favorite format was always drafting, but that required buying a box of boosters, finding enough people to split the cost and fill out a tournament, and then being left with a bunch of cards.

I discovered deck building games like Dominion and Ascension that fulfilled that itch to build a deck, make a plan on a fly without requiring me and my friends to set down money or gain an unfair advantage through buying a ton of cards. I instead play those now and at least the costs are fixed.

[Sith_Happens]

I didn't like feeling my cards were getting out of date, nor having the constraint of having to buy more and more cards to fill out a deck.

Well the easy solution there is just to not play Standard (or, to a lesser extent, Extended, but from what I've heard no one really plays Extended any more anyways). Most good Magic cards just get better with age, so you pretty much never have to stop using a casual, Legacy, or Modern deck just because new stuff comes out (although it is worth it to get any newer cards that actually benefit an existing deck). Heck, my favorite deck to use revolves around a one-off keyword from ten years ago that reappeared in Time Spiral block (along with almost every other keyword ever) but hasn't been seen since.

[Penguinizer]

I think the main reason people give away some of the commons and uncommons is that they simply have no use for them. I've done it a few times when it's cards I outright don't need. I just pass them on to a friend. I don't tend to get that many boosters any more though.

[Gnoman]

The only store I know that sells magic cards is a bookstore that has one box of boosters under the counter. I don't think they would go to the effort, is all. And I'm not sure they'd realize they could even do it.

Yeah, that's quite a different situation. The stores I'm referring to are dedicated game/comic stores, which already dedicate a lot of space to Magic and Pokémon.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well no Duh. MTG is BASED around paying more money to be more powerful.

Its like a game with inbuilt DLC.

[Jimorian]

My only comment is that if I were still playing MtG, for casual play I would totally allow proxy cards just so we could try out various tournament decks and what-have-you. I really don't understand the resistance to that idea outside of tournament play.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that's quite a different situation. The stores I'm referring to are dedicated game/comic stores, which already dedicate a lot of space to Magic and Pokémon.

Yeah, those don't really exist in this country. There's a warhammer shop I sometimes go to since they have a few tables, but that's about it. American comics are sold in the speciality foreign language book store on one shelf in the cellar and magic cards... well, wherever you find them. Book stores, board game stores, toy stores, that kind of thing.

I only ever played magic with a small handful of close friends in high-school, but I don't think any of us ever looked up anything about the game online. The assumption was that you would buy a booster or two every other week and then build a deck from that or what you could trade.

[CN the Logos]

Have you considered EDH/Commander?

I won't say it's the cheapest format you can play, but it is cheaper than any of the basic "sixty card deck, up to four of any cards other than basic lands" formats (aside from Pauper, which isn't so much a format as a rule that can be optionally added to a format). There are a couple of reasons for this. One, you can only have one of each card in a deck, so you only need one of any particular expensive card.

Two, because of the fact that you've got one hundred cards and only one of anything aside from basic lands, it's considerably less likely that you'll topdeck exactly what you need to complete your game-winning combo in the first few turns. It's possible, but the format is designed for three or more players in a game, and the rest of the table will gang up on you once everyone else in the group knows what your deck does. The official Commander rules also give groups carte blanche to ban combos, etc.. they find too powerful for the group, or to tell people who can't be gentlemen (or gentleladies) where they can find the door. The overall effect is that Commander games tend to be much slower even taking the increased number of players into account. That, in turn, means that if you happen to be missing one or two money rares that would help your deck, you can still get by without it and not be crippled.

The slower pace of the game also makes some cards that are very weak in regular Magic much much better. See this thing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=278196)? Probably useless in regular Magic, right? It's going in both of my black Commander decks because in a game that lasts long enough for players to start hard casting the Eldrazi titans, the ability to tutor for three useful cards for eight mana becomes very good. And they cost a dollar each. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know if that's something you'd be interested in, but it might be something to consider. Probably a bit more expensive than Pauper, but actually getting to play and win with those supposedly cool but useless Timmy rares is priceless, in my opinion.

[Penguinizer]

The important thing about EDH is to try to remember to keep a steady level of balance in your playgroup. EDH is the least balanced format in existence. The problem with EDH is that the same old utility cards are still really good in EDH. Sure, you can avoid them but still.

Overall, I'd recommend Pauper or limited.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Yeah, those don't really exist in this country.

Are you still in Sydney? Because we have multiple dedicated gaming stores in Bendigo and I know for a fact that Sydney has a Good Games (http://www.goodgames.com.au/) as well as multiple dedicated FLGS's. There is no way that Australia lacks in game stores.

[Eldan]

Are you still in Sydney? Because we have multiple dedicated gaming stores in Bendigo and I know for a fact that Sydney has a Good Games (http://www.goodgames.com.au/) as well as multiple dedicated FLGS's. There is no way that Australia lacks in game stores.

Whoops, no, that was a months ago. Just haven't changed my location yet. Back in Switzerland, the country where people don't know what "Fantasy" is.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Whoops, no, that was a months ago. Just haven't changed my location yet. Back in Switzerland, the country where people don't know what "Fantasy" is.

Well I'm afraid I just can't speak for the Swiss gaming community. I still refuse to believe that Switzerland has a smaller gaming community than Bendigo.

[Bucky]

Hm... how about, as something that allows people to use rare cards but isn't ridiculous, an alternative to Pauper.

- Maximum of three rare, super rare, mythic rare, anything rarer than uncommon cards
I was originally thinking four, which would be about ten percent of the deck, but then I remembered lands. So I thought two, but no, that seemed too low. So I went with three.

Discounting lands is a mistake. Dual lands are really important in a multicolor deck, and it's actually easier to snag an arbitrary rare dual land in your colors than an uncommon one.

[Lord Seth]

I have noticed lately, lately being after i attended a couple of local Magic the Gathering tournaments, that there is way too much emphasis being placed on rare cards. No matter who I faced or what that person was playing I heard the same thing.What tournament type was this? You mention Boomerang so it's obviously not Standard...are we talking Modern?


Now while this advice wouldn't put me into a bad mood normally it came shortly before I asked what everyone else was playing. The answers that I got was what caused the frothing that I'm trying to cure at the present by posting this thread. The decks that the advice givers were running were loaded with rare/legendary/mythic rare cards. Some of these decks apparently carried very specific price tags on them that ranged from $60 dollars to $260 dollars. This BLEW MY MIND.As a Legacy player, I find this deeply amusing.


I asked how was it that these decks were worth so much? Well as I found out the other day, the days of playing decks of mostly common cards, with a few uncommon's and rares to really make a deck pop, has been over for a while.It ever began? :smallconfused: Right from the beginning of the game, you've needed rares to make the best decks possible.


To say that I was confused was an understatement, especially when I realized that some of the other players there had never even seen some of the more common cards that I would have thought everyone had seen and/or used at one point in time. The true horror of the situation came to me when my brother, playing a blue mill deck, played a Boomerang (http://tntpg.trollandtoad.com/p168114.html) and his opponent asked to see it because they had never seen or heard of the card! They had been playing for a couple of years and did not know what this, in my mind, staple of classic blue power was.Emphasis on classic. Boomerang's been out of print since 10th Edition. And in the formats where it's legal, there are better choices even if you do restrict yourself to commons. I can easily see how someone who's only been playing for a few years would be unaware of it. This is honestly unrelated to your point about rarity.


From there they went on to tell me that they had researched over the internet different deck types and their strengths and weaknesses. From their they determined what was going to be allowed in this weeks tournament and made a deck by ordering a specific combination of rare, uncommon, and legendary cards to play against the rest of the people at the tournament.And this is bad because...why? It makes perfect sense to put together a deck that can handle the expected field.
I hear you on the sadness of being befuddled by cards like Boomerang.Thing is, that's pretty unrelated to the issue of rarity. Boomerang isn't played because there are better choices even if you restrict yourself to commons.

Unless you mean it's sad in that modern players are often unaware of older cards that used to be really popular because said cards have dropped a lot in popularity. I could kind of understand that. But trying to cite it as some kind of example of emphasis on rarity or anything like that is fallacious.
However, I think you're not looking at the whole picture. Yes, competitive magic is heavily rare based.I don't know if I'd really say that. Not counting basic lands, the deck that won the most recent Standard SCG Open has more commons than rares. And the deck that won the most recent Legacy SCG Open was mostly uncommons...
You can see them for yourselves here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48198) and here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48215). By my count, the Standard one has 2 Mythic Rares, 18 Rares, 7 Uncommons, and 22 Commons maindeck, 7 Rares, 4 Uncommons, and 4 Commons sideboard. The Legacy one has 5 Commons, 29 Uncommons, 14 Rares maindeck, and 5 Rares, 7 Uncommons, and 3 Commons sideboard.

I think the issue is that people tend to focus so much on the rares that it's easy to ignore how many popular cards aren't rare.

Indeed, people always talk about the challenge of making decks without rares, but you know what is also a challenge? Making a deck without commons.


Most of the top tier decks do require a fair ammount of skill to play correctly. Control and Combo decks both often require an extensive knowledge of how to respond to a large number of situations, and even Aggro players need to be able to deal with those decks. The "Unskilled player with deck that plays itself" only exists in certain formats, and even then, only actually at lower tiers of competition.This is pretty true, however.


Also, to be fair, boomerang has been out of type for a long time, and since it doesn't make the cut in modern or legacy, it basically exists in casual enviornments with people who've been playing five to six years (And frankly, I'll take Into the Roil over boomerang outside of decks that need the tempo of turn two land bounce)Yep, absolutely. I know I keep hammering on this point, but it is true. This Boomerang example is honestly irrelevant to the discussion on rarities. Though I'd personally take Echoing Truth over Into the Roil pretty much anywhere except for singleton formats.

[Stille_Nacht]

even if you are talking about competetive magic, it's just patently not very true.

you know what card made the biggest splash this block
Delver of Secrets.
you know how much he costs? like 30 cents

yes. there are some expensive cards. all the rares in a tier one deck are likely to be expensive. this is simply because of demand. But if anything, commons are more broken than ever before :/. And decks are still mostly common...
also, there was never ever a time when there were only like 5 rares in a deck. ever. ever since rares have been on average stronger than commons, they have been used pretty prevalently in decks. any other scenario is a sort of fantasy dream land
also, 250 bucks for a super top tier deck isnt really that bad (gl attempting to find prices that low in yugioh)... 60 dollars is a steal even in friggin pokemon if we are talking competetive

if anything, this is just a slightly more common focused set. back in the day, cursed scroll was 20-30 bucks. Prices same as ever really... cards like cursed scroll werent exactly the cheapest either way back when.

and before you say anything, jace tms and by extension SFM don't really count... that's more of a "ultra super broken cards get ridiculously pricey" than anything else...

[raymundo]

Whoops, no, that was a months ago. Just haven't changed my location yet. Back in Switzerland, the country where people don't know what "Fantasy" is.

www.magickartenmarkt.de

You'll get pretty much every card there, booster and booster displays are at very, very good prices. Shipping from Germany is probably reasonably priced as well. It's pretty much the best shopping portal für Magic cards in europe..

Should you sign up, feel free to make me your referral ;) My user name is lars-s.

Happy shopping





you know what card made the biggest splash this block
Delver of Secrets.


Yes, but Delver most likely only is a deck because playing a lot of instants and sorceries has awesome synergy with Snapcaster Mage, probably the most expansive rare in ISD block. I don't know if there ever was a successful Delver deck without Snapcaster Mage.



And on the topic.. You went to a competitive Magic event and were complety baffled about people building the best decks possible? You were implying that people who built their decks with input from internet sources are doing it wrong? And that this is a "new" thing in Magic?
Well.. you probably shouldn't attend competitive events if you don't like how people play at them. There are many different ways to enjoy Magic

[Eldan]

www.magickartenmarkt.de

You'll get pretty much every card there, booster and booster displays are at very, very good prices. Shipping from Germany is probably reasonably priced as well. It's pretty much the best shopping portal für Magic cards in europe..

Should you sign up, feel free to make me your referral ;) My user name is lars-s.

Happy shopping

Actually, I've ordered from Germany before. Shipping isn't that bad, but the taxes are insane.

Also, I havne't played magic since... Six years or so? Around the time the second or third set in the Mirrodin block came out. Fifth dawn, I think.

[Giegue]

I don't think that there is really a greater emphsis on rares then their was in the past UNLESS the past to you was in the very early stages of the game. Even before mythic rare was invented tourny decks always ran expensive cards. Thats just the way it was. Before mythic and walkers we had stuff like tarmograph, Ravnica shock lands, Uzimawa's Jitti, Damnation ect.... In fact, in my experence it was actually more expensive to build a tourny deck at that time then it was now unless your deck was mono-colored since at that time shocklands and duals where FAR harder to come by, and pretty much used in every deck. Heck, in most of those decks the manabase was the most expensive portion! Now, with the release of the Drowned Catacombs- type duals, it has become much easier to build a good multi-color manabase for a reasonable price, though I do fear that return to ravnica will also see the return of shocklands, so this may not be the case for long.

However, there ARE still "budget" decks that can do well at the FNM level at the least, if you know where to look. Infect is probably the best of the bunch, from at least my experience, though it's become less powerful recently and does require some kinda expensive-ish cards(Mainly Inkmoth Nexus.). However, Infect probably is the cheapest deck that can actually do well, barring maybe a burning vengeance build.(Though I don't know how good such a deck would be.). Sadly Infect will be rotating soon, but some kind of burning vengeance deck may be viable post-rotation.

As for Modern? Living End combo. The core of the deck is absurdly cheap to put togther, and it runs very few rares beyond the aforementioned combo piece, Living End.(Which is not really a chase rare anyway) While I don't follow Modern, and thus don't know if this deck is still good, it was good at one point and about as budget as a tourney-quality deck can get.

[raymundo]

Actually, I've ordered from Germany before. Shipping isn't that bad, but the taxes are insane.

Also, I havne't played magic since... Six years or so? Around the time the second or third set in the Mirrodin block came out. Fifth dawn, I think.


Huh, I didn't knew you'd have to tax it.. I mean, you're pretty much just receiving a letter or a package from some random person. Well, that probably makes it kinda expensive.. Anyway, magickartenmarkt also has some people from Switzerland. One of them has current boosters for 2,50€ a piece and a nice collection of single cards.

But I probably misread your post and you never intended to pick up playing Magic again ;)

[Lord Seth]

Yes, but Delver most likely only is a deck because playing a lot of instants and sorceries has awesome synergy with Snapcaster Mage, probably the most expansive rare in ISD block. I don't know if there ever was a successful Delver deck without Snapcaster Mage.You mean aside from RUG Delver, which is a Tier 1 Legacy deck?
Now, with the release of the Drowned Catacombs- type duals, it has become much easier to build a good multi-color manabase for a reasonable price, though I do fear that return to ravnica will also see the return of shocklands, so this may not be the case for long.The "release" of lands like Drowned Catacombs didn't make it cheaper. Heck, initially they were as much as the shocklands were when they were Standard legal. It was the fact they've been printed in three consecutive Core Sets that brought their price down.

Not sure why you "fear" Return to Ravnica bringing them back though. The game desperately needs more copies of those. Not as much as it needs more copies of Tarmogoyf, but they're definitely on the "please reprint me already" list.

[Zombimode]

My only comment is that if I were still playing MtG, for casual play I would totally allow proxy cards just so we could try out various tournament decks and what-have-you. I really don't understand the resistance to that idea outside of tournament play.

To prevent degeneration, mostly.
Have you tried playing via Magic Workstation?
Yeah, its fun to play against 2000-3000 € decks...:smallsigh:

[Lhurgyof]

Have you considered EDH/Commander?

I won't say it's the cheapest format you can play, but it is cheaper than any of the basic "sixty card deck, up to four of any cards other than basic lands" formats (aside from Pauper, which isn't so much a format as a rule that can be optionally added to a format). There are a couple of reasons for this. One, you can only have one of each card in a deck, so you only need one of any particular expensive card.

Two, because of the fact that you've got one hundred cards and only one of anything aside from basic lands, it's considerably less likely that you'll topdeck exactly what you need to complete your game-winning combo in the first few turns. It's possible, but the format is designed for three or more players in a game, and the rest of the table will gang up on you once everyone else in the group knows what your deck does. The official Commander rules also give groups carte blanche to ban combos, etc.. they find too powerful for the group, or to tell people who can't be gentlemen (or gentleladies) where they can find the door. The overall effect is that Commander games tend to be much slower even taking the increased number of players into account. That, in turn, means that if you happen to be missing one or two money rares that would help your deck, you can still get by without it and not be crippled.

The slower pace of the game also makes some cards that are very weak in regular Magic much much better. See this thing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=278196)? Probably useless in regular Magic, right? It's going in both of my black Commander decks because in a game that lasts long enough for players to start hard casting the Eldrazi titans, the ability to tutor for three useful cards for eight mana becomes very good. And they cost a dollar each. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know if that's something you'd be interested in, but it might be something to consider. Probably a bit more expensive than Pauper, but actually getting to play and win with those supposedly cool but useless Timmy rares is priceless, in my opinion.

Just be wary of who you play with. I remember when I started playing in the local commander tournament. I decided that aggro was just not worth it and now my decks are worth $500-$800 a pop just to keep up with everyone.

[Kjata]

Everybody is talking like this is a mtg thing. But really, it's not.

In RPGs, the more books you have, the better your characters and games can be. Therefore, more money=better.

In Warhammer, the more money you spend the more optimized your force is, plus the more books you buy the better you know your opponents. More money=better.

Show me a hobby that doesn't require more money for you to get more out of it. I mean, when I was a strictly casual player, a spent a lot of money buying packs to build a large variety of decks. Now, I strictly play legacy and have spent a lot of money to basically have every good UW card in the format. I don't spend more money on magic noe than i used to, I just buy different cards. When I have $30 to spend on magic, instead of buying a lot of sealed product, I buy a single card.

[Bucky]

Show me a hobby that doesn't require more money for you to get more out of it.

Chess. Starcraft. Knitting. Almost any strategy game that's not directly inspired by MtG.

[Kjata]

Chess. Starcraft. Knitting. Almost any strategy game that's not directly inspired by MtG.

Okay, well how about these:

Fishing. Paintball. Snow/skate boarding. Surfing. Cars. Guns. Video Gaming.

I'm not asking for stuff to do, I'm talking about way of life games. I enjoy the game "Small World," but I wouldn't identify myself as a "Small World Player." MtG can become a defining part of your life, something that you spend the majority of your free time on. The fact is, hobbies of such scale are rarely cheap.

[cezyou]

So making a career out of chess or Starcraft specifically(or LoL, recently) isn't 'way of life' enough?

[Chen]

Just be wary of who you play with. I remember when I started playing in the local commander tournament. I decided that aggro was just not worth it and now my decks are worth $500-$800 a pop just to keep up with everyone.

Tournaments are always going to bring out the people who have the best of the best stuff. A tournament level Sharuum the Hegemon deck or Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck is going to be extremely fast. Maybe not Vintage fast, but pretty damn close.

Really this is the case with ALL constructed formats. A tournament is going to have the players with the best decks out there and consequently some of the more expensive decks out there. Now that said I remember back in the day of Vintage when if the whole field was sporting Keeper decks you had a chance at winning with a cheaper Sligh or Mono Black disruption deck. I don't really think that's the case anymore in Vintage. Legacy around here still has some decent cheapish decks like Dredge (though Bridges from Below are getting expensive now).

Really, if you don't want to spend a lot of money you can either play Pauper or a limited format. Its rare there'll be tournaments for Pauper, but there are plenty of draft and sealed deck tournaments.

[CreganTur]

This thread makes me laugh because this is a story as old as M:TG itself. I played back when 4th dropped and for many years after that. In tourneys it was generally the people who spent the most money who were in the top slots.

We called it "Rich Kid Syndrome" back then.

[Lord Seth]

Starcraft.Doesn't Starcraft have a bunch of expansion packs and sequels?

[Kjata]

So making a career out of chess or Starcraft specifically(or LoL, recently) isn't 'way of life' enough?

Admittedly, there are exceptions to what I said. But, the point still stands when a large majority of such hobbies are expensive.

[Artanis]

Doesn't Starcraft have a bunch of expansion packs and sequels?
StarCraft 1 had one expansion pack. StarCraft 2 has none yet, but one being worked on and a second planned.

[Lord Seth]

StarCraft 1 had one expansion pack. StarCraft 2 has none yet, but one being worked on and a second planned.The point stands that you get more out of it if you pay more.
and before you say anything, jace tms and by extension SFM don't really count... that's more of a "ultra super broken cards get ridiculously pricey" than anything else...This may be a minor point, but I count neither of those as "ultra super broken cards." The term broken is already pretty harsh for a card, and if you're going to add "ultra super" to it the cards had better actually fit that, which they don't. For something to bear that moniker, it has to be legitimately broken in pretty much every format, which those two are not. Neither one is broken in Legacy or Vintage (as shown by the fact they aren't banned/restricted and I don't see people calling for that), and there's not enough information to evaluate whether they're broken in Modern because Wizards banned them just on the "golly gee! They sure were overpowered in Standard, right? And Extended too, probably. And clearly Modern is exactly the same format as those two! It's not like there's another format for reasonable comparison called Legacy in which they're perfectly fine! And it's also not like we already banned the card that's probably the single strongest target for Stoneforge Mystic."

Yeah, a bit of bitterness there. Still, it was a cautionary ban, not one done because they were actually tearing up the format. Though to be fair, Jace's ban may have been them just (secretly) reasoning "well we don't want to ever reprint this guy, and if he's legal his price will stay high, so let's just ban him so we don't have to worry about it."

Stoneforge Mystic wasn't even a card that was broken by itself, it only became broken because they decided to, in the next set, print some of the most grossly undercosted equipment ever (i.e. the Swords). If it had been printed one block ago, I think it would've been seen as a decent but not gamebreaking card in Standard.

Maybe I'm nitpicking. But I don't think "ultra super broken" is a term that either deserves, and certainly not Stoneforge Mystic. Broken is a term that should only be used when it's legitimately deserved, and using an even stronger term should only be applied to cards that go beyond even that.

[Psyren]

Why not play with proxies? Sure you can't take them to tournaments but who cares about that?

One of my friends had a ton of extra basic lands, so we hit on the idea to just use Magic Set Editor or something to make sheets and sheets of proxies at Kinkos etc and just play with those. Haven't gotten around to it yet but the price is right.