Optimized Bardish class (need help)

[MagnusV]

Hello Everyone,

Ive been reading various books to try and optimize a bard type character. I say type because i might not actually take bard levels.. (explainations below with books and page numbers if i can locate them)

I am planning on starting with a class that has perform as a in class skill and hopefully full BAB and high skill points, and taking levels in warblade using Feat: Song of the White Raven (Tome of Battle p.32) to keep up with Inspired courage.(When i get it) then going into warrior skald (races of faerun p.186) and maybe add in Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle p.100) since i kind of want a throwing build. (im not opposed to bard, but will end up with the abilities of a bard so not wanting to take the BAB hit for nothing)

Anyways since thats enough build basics now to my problems...

Does anyone know off hand a class that has a full BAB with perform in class? ( if class has Bonus abilities/feats, that may help the build its worth 2 points :smalltongue: )

And 2 questions on Warrior Skald: It gives bardic music and all abilities of the bard (with still requiring the perform skill) at level 1, but does not specify if and when it increases, so is it only at +1 with no increase?
Wording here:
Bardic Music: At 1st level, the
warrior skald gains the bardic
music ability if she did not already
have it from a previous class. All the
bardic music effects (countersong, fascinate,
inspire competence, inspire courage,
inspire greatness, and suggestion) become
available to her immediately, subject to their usual Perform skill
requirements (see Bard in the Player’s Handbook). Additionally,
all the bardic music effects, including countersong, can be produced
with poetry rather than music. Each bardic music effect except suggestion requires one daily use of the bardic music ability.
Suggestion does not require any uses, but the subject must
first be fascinated. The warrior skald combines her bard and
warrior skald levels to determine how many times per day she
can use her bardic music ability.

it also says that it is profecient with all martial weapons, armor, shields.. does this mean all armor/shields?
Exact Wording:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The
warrior skald is proficient with martial weapons,
armor, and shields.

Like i said earlier i have no issue taking first level as bard but doesnt seem needed if Warrior skald increases Inspire courage as it levels.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

For your Perform issue, Skill Knowledge or Apprentice should cover you. Take a flaw and pick up one of those, and you'll have Perform forever.

The armor/weapons/shield proficiency issue: ask your DM. There's no official errata.

The music issue: it stacks your Bard/Warrior Skald levels. If you get into WS without Bard somehow, then it's going to be based entirely on WS.

[MagnusV]

For your Perform issue, Skill Knowledge or Apprentice should cover you. Take a flaw and pick up one of those, and you'll have Perform forever.

The armor/weapons/shield proficiency issue: ask your DM. There's no official errata.

The music issue: it stacks your Bard/Warrior Skald levels. If you get into WS without Bard somehow, then it's going to be based entirely on WS

Thank you for the ideas

Well WS doesnt require bard at all, so thats where im not sure and doesnt have it listed like it does in PHb for bard where at level x it gives you an Inspired Courage +y, so would i just use the bard chart and use the WS level?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Yes. With SotWR, you'd be stacking your Warrior Skald and Warblade levels and looking at the Bard chart.

[MagnusV]

Yes. With SotWR, you'd be stacking your Warrior Skald and Warblade levels and looking at the Bard chart.

thank you very much, im looking into the feats you mentioned, do you happen to know which book they are from?

[Flickerdart]

Keep on mind that Song of the White Raven increases the bonus, but not the uses per day, so you'll need a source of that.

[MagnusV]

Keep on mind that Song of the White Raven increases the bonus, but not the uses per day, so you'll need a source of that.

Good point, but i assume as mentioned earlier i could use the WS, which can get me up to 10th level uses since it states its WS + bard levels for how many uses

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

thank you very much, im looking into the feats you mentioned, do you happen to know which book they are from?

Apprentice is DMG2, Skill Knowledge is UA.

[Flickerdart]

Good point, but i assume as mentioned earlier i could use the WS, which can get me up to 10th level uses since it states its WS + bard levels for how many uses
Right, that works fine for when you enter Warrior Skald, but until that point you're not doing so well on music.

[MagnusV]

Right, that works fine for when you enter Warrior Skald, but until that point you're not doing so well on music.

Yeah, I know am going as warblade to WS, seems a waste to go bard (only non-prestige i know that will get songs/day) since i will get the bardic abilities anyway and i wouldnt be putting enough levels to make use of the spells if i did start/add some bard.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

What level are you starting play? Having access to one of your signature abilities until you get into WS is probably worth a Bard dip. Especially since it comes with social skills and utility stuff.

[MagnusV]

What level are you starting play? Having access to one of your signature abilities until you get into WS is probably worth a Bard dip. Especially since it comes with social skills and utility stuff.

Maybe your right, i wasnt completly opposed to bard, just seemed it may not be worth it, but would eliminate some headaches. the start will be at 1, as far as i know, DM has not stated otherwise yet.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Well, you only lose 1 point of BAB for Bard levels up to 4. The later you take your first Warblade level, the higher-level the maneuvers you have access to are. So anywhere between 1 and 4 levels of Bard could be ok.

[MagnusV]

Well, you only lose 1 point of BAB for Bard levels up to 4. The later you take your first Warblade level, the higher-level the maneuvers you have access to are. So anywhere between 1 and 4 levels of Bard could be ok.

ok ill compare 1-4brd/1-5WB see which is better

[vhfforever]

Does anyone know off hand a class that has a full BAB with perform in class? ( if class has Bonus abilities/feats, that may help the build its worth 2 points :smalltongue: )

Well, if you want to keep full BAB the Harmonious Knight substitution level for Paladin gets Perform: Singing and Inspire Courage instead of Detect Evil

[MagnusV]

Well, if you want to keep full BAB the Harmonious Knight substitution level for Paladin gets Perform: Singing and Inspire Courage instead of Detect Evil

That might fix my issues since it also gets Inspire courage... thank you, ill look into it

[Crasical]

*skids in* Is it too late? Am I too late to repost this?


There's a spell called Undersong in a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

[MagnusV]

*skids in* Is it too late? Am I too late to repost this?

Slow down there Crasical haha, you lost me.. Going to try here... your saying to use undersong to substitute perform for consentrate then with a few manuevers (assuming you are referring to warblade manuevers) to use consentrate instead of fort/will/reflex then use the perform weapon drill to add half your BAB to your perform with these manuevers to save fort/will/reflex?

did i get that right?

If thats right, that is awesome! ill defianetly be using that :smallsmile: if not then im still lost haha and youll have to explain.

[Crasical]

Yeah. Undersong is a spell that lets you substitute any concentration check you make with a Perform check. Diamond Mind has three maneuvers that let you replace Fort, Will, and Reflex saves with concentrate checks, and a few more that let you use your concentrate check for various types of attack.

So, take Perform(Weapon Drill) to add half your bab to the perform check, and undersong to use those perform checks instead of concentrate for the Diamond Mind maneuvers.

[eggs]

And 2 questions on Warrior Skald: It gives bardic music and all abilities of the bard (with still requiring the perform skill) at level 1, but does not specify if and when it increases, so is it only at +1 with no increase?

It's a 3.0 Bard class.

In 3.0, song access was based entirely on skill ranks, and inspire courage didn't increase with levels.

So without modifications, it's really not compatible.

Because its Bardic music was identical to the Bard's ability (all effects with 1 Bard level and X skill ranks), the most reasonable alteration for a 3.5 game would be adding WS and Bard levels together for the effective Bard level for all musical purposes.

[MagnusV]

It's a 3.0 Bard class.

In 3.0, song access was based entirely on skill ranks, and inspire courage didn't increase with levels.

So without modifications, it's really not compatible.

Because its Bardic music was identical to the Bard's ability (all effects with 1 Bard level and X skill ranks), the most reasonable alteration for a 3.5 game would be adding WS and Bard levels together for the effective Bard level for all musical purposes.

That explains the vague text.. thank you.