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GarbledTutors
2012-07-30, 08:14 PM
Basically this is a monk with Full BaB.

Martial Understanding: Martial Artists have a high level of understanding of maneuvers including ones they have not learned. Character is considered a fighter of his martial artist level for all feat prerequisites, and can take feats requiring dodge or combat expertise even if he doesn't have them. Is also able to take Stunning Fist at any level, and use his martial arts level to calculate the number of times per day he can use it.

Combat Reflexes: Gains combat reflexes as a bonus feat. This replaces stunning fist.

Deflect Attack: Martial Artists can attempt to deflect mele attacks at the cost of one AoO. This cannot be used against touch attacks. Make an attack roll and use the result as your new AC vs the attack. You must declare you are using this before your opponent makes his attack roll. If fighting defensively or using total defense, add the total AC bonus from these actions to your attack roll. This replaces the monk Wisdom and level AC bonuses.

Weapon Finesse: Martial Artists gain weapon finesse at level 2. This replaces their bonus feat.

Absorb Power: Martial artists can absorb the magical and material qualities of any weapon they are wielding. When making an unarmed attack you may select any weapon you are wielding and use the magical bonuses and material for determining attack roll bonus, attack damage bonus, and damage reduction. This does not stack with other magical or item bonuses such as magic fang. This replaces ki strike, and ki powers.

Intuitive Attack: Use your Wisdom modifier instead of Str for damage bonus when using a light weapon. Add any negative Str modifier as well. This replaces the 6th level bonus feat.

Improved Deflection: Add 2 to your deflecting attack rolls.This replaces the bonus feat.

Improved Fortitude: (evasion for fort saves) Negate all effects from spells, abilities, poisons, etc, on a successful fort save. This replaces 11th level Diamond Body

Counter Defensive Casting: At level 11, you may ignore the effects of casting defensively when casters are within your threatened area. They provoke AoO as normal for you and must make the appropriate concentration check if you do damage.

What do you guys think? Is this fair, overpowered, underpowered? I am trying to make the monk a viable alternative and a little closer to Bruce Lee. I am concerned that d8 hit dice is not enough as the deflect attacks may not work often against stronger creatures. Also touch attacks are going to hit much more often.

If you think it is overpowered please include whatever tweaks are necessary for you to allow it. This is for both 3.5 and pathfinder.

Steward
2012-07-30, 09:29 PM
I think you should stack these features on top of the monk's regular features. I like a lot of these abilities but I really think that they synergize well with the Core monk and I don't see anything here even close to being overpowered.


Weapon Finesse: Martial Artists gain weapon finesse at level 2. This replaces their bonus feat.

I think you should let them keep the bonus feat in addition to the weapon finesse, for example. The problem with using things such as feats, bonuses to skill checks, etc. as class features is that it makes the class feel more like a build than an actual class. (Also -- and this is just a personal thing -- I just think that it's boring when class features just give you feats, spell-like abilities, or bonuses to ordinary skill checks. It's like, why would I take an entire level of a class just to get a +4 to Appraise?)


Absorb Power: Martial artists can absorb the magical and material qualities of any weapon they are wielding. When making an unarmed attack you may select any weapon you are wielding and use the magical bonuses and material for determining attack roll bonus, attack damage bonus, and damage reduction. This does not stack with other magical or item bonuses such as magic fang. This replaces ki strike, and ki powers.

I really like this ability. The only tweak that I would make is to have it so that the unarmed strikes can be enchanted directly. The way you have it now isn't bad, but I don't like the idea of a monk having to actually wield a weapon in one hand in order to punch with her other hand. It's like... why not just use the weapon itself to hit your opponent, and avoid bruising your knuckles on that gryphon's face?


Intuitive Attack: Use your Wisdom modifier instead of Str for damage bonus when using a light weapon. Add any negative Str modifier as well. This replaces the 6th level bonus feat.

I'm a fan of making monks a lot less dependent on multiple ability scores. I really think you should consider dropping the Str negative modifier instead. It doesn't seem to make sense here since it actually makes monks weaker (they get no benefit from Strength bonuses but they get penalized if they have a Strength penalty, even though you've keyed damage bonus to Wisdom).


Counter Defensive Casting: At level 11, you may ignore the effects of casting defensively when casters are within your threatened area. They provoke AoO as normal for you and must make the appropriate concentration check if you do damage.

This is really neat. I've always enjoyed playing up the idea of the monk / martial artist as having a special tactical advantage against spellcasters.


Improved Deflection: Add 2 to your deflecting attack rolls.This replaces the bonus feat.

That doesn't seem like an even trade to me. A +2 to a special type of attack roll isn't worth that much.


Improved Fortitude: (evasion for fort saves) Negate all effects from spells, abilities, poisons, etc, on a successful fort save. This replaces 11th level Diamond Body

I also definitely agree with this choice in its entirety. I just have a point of clarification; does this mean that the monk gets a fortitude save on any spell, power, poison, etc, even if the effect would not normally allow a save at all or would normally use another type of save (either will or reflex?)

GarbledTutors
2012-07-30, 10:37 PM
I really like this ability. The only tweak that I would make is to have it so that the unarmed strikes can be enchanted directly. The way you have it now isn't bad, but I don't like the idea of a monk having to actually wield a weapon in one hand in order to punch with her other hand. It's like... why not just use the weapon itself to hit your opponent, and avoid bruising your knuckles on that gryphon's face?

Most DM's seem to allow handwraps that confer a similar bonus, but the problem is this takes away a slot (gloves). I guess that is an interesting switch, claim the body is now a weapon that can be enchanted directly. Not quite as good as you will not be able to make it adamantine (to prevent damage reduction), or switch it with a human bane one for example.




I'm a fan of making monks a lot less dependent on multiple ability scores. I really think you should consider dropping the Str negative modifier instead. It doesn't seem to make sense here since it actually makes monks weaker (they get no benefit from Strength bonuses but they get penalized if they have a Strength penalty, even though you've keyed damage bonus to Wisdom).

That is the purpose of this, too many stat requirements. I suppose dropping the neg str could work.



This is really neat. I've always enjoyed playing up the idea of the monk / martial artist as having a special tactical advantage against spellcasters.

I thought they were supposed to. Just fought a wizard the other day and found out otherwise. Mage Armor plus shield stopped some decent attack rolls, and then we surrounded him and he started casting defensively. If you have four characters next to a mage it should be instant death, but instead he got 3 or 4 spells off and knocked my monk unconscious. I think casting defensively should be removed.




That doesn't seem like an even trade to me. A +2 to a special type of attack roll isn't worth that much.

It is nearly the equivalent of plus two AC


I also definitely agree with this choice in its entirety. I just have a point of clarification; does this mean that the monk gets a fortitude save on any spell, power, poison, etc, even if the effect would not normally allow a save at all or would normally use another type of save (either will or reflex?)

I was thinking no. Only if you normally get a fort save. Sometimes passing the fort save still does damage. I was thinking though that this would negate future rolls for the same attack though as some poisons make you roll multiple fort saves.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-07-30, 10:44 PM
Improved Deflection: Add 2 to your deflecting attack rolls.This replaces the bonus feat.

...Did I miss a deflection class feature, or is this a really awkwardly worded +2 to AC?

GarbledTutors
2012-07-30, 10:46 PM
...Did I miss a deflection class feature, or is this a really awkwardly worded +2 to AC?

It is plus 2 to ac when using deflecting attack, it is a situational plus. Read deflecting attack.

GarbledTutors
2012-07-31, 07:09 PM
I have been rethinking this thanks to the comments and I have revised it a bit. This is a bit stronger, and closer to a fighter type, but really dependant on rolls. I think that is the main advantage a fighter will have over this class, good or bad rolls do not effect a fighter's AC where as the martial artists AC is very dependant upon them. So here it is

Martial Artist
-------------------------
d8 Hit Dice
Full BaB
All Full Saves
Monk Skill Selection and skill points

Level 1: Intuitive Attack, Deflect Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows
Level 2: Bonus Feat, evasion
Level 3: Roll with attack
Level 4: Magical Focus, Intuitive Strike
Level 5: Fast Movement, Bonus Feat, Acrobatics Mastery
Level 6: Counter Defensive Casting, Slashing Attack
Level 8: Improved Deflection, Bonus Feat
Level 9: Improved Evasion
Level 11: Improved Fortitude, Bonus Feat
Level 15: Fast Healing 1
Level 17: Timeless Body
Level 20: Perfet Self

A martial artist is considered a fighter or a monk of the same level for feat qualification

Intuitive Attack: Use wisdom for attack rolls instead of Str

Deflect Attack: Each round the martial artist can preform this manuever a number of times equal to one third his martial arts level plus one. When an attack would normally hit, he can roll to attempt to block the attack. Roll an attack and add any dodge bonuses as well as bonuses from fighting defensively or full defensive action (the negatives from fighting defensively do not apply). If this result is higher then the attack, then you successfully blocked the attack and take no damage. The result is treated as the martial artists AC for this attack only, so natural 20's still hit but the confirmation must beat this new AC. This cannot be used to block touch or ranged attacks. This can only be used when the martial artist is unencumbered, wearing no armor, and also not raging. This is an alternative to the monk's Wisdom bonus and a character cannot have both active at the same time. If you have the deflect arrows feat, then this can also be used to deflect ranged attacks. If used to block ranged attacks you must still make the attack roll to deflect, rather then automatically deflecting per deflect arrows. You still get a free automatic deflection as per the deflect arrows feat.

AC Bonus: Every five levels, starting at level five the martial artist gains another dodge bonus. (A monk gets them every four levels)

Unarmed Strike: The martial artist does damage as though he was a monk of the same level and can also strike while his hands are full.

Flurry of Blows: Same as monk

Bonus Feat: Select a bonus feat from either the monk's bonus feat list, or the fighters. If the monk can ignore the prereqs so can the martial artist. If selected, he can use stunning fist a number of days equal to his martial artist level. He gains a bonus feat every 3 levels starting at level 2.

Roll with attack: Once per round, when an attack hits, the martial artist can attempt to negate some of the damage after a successful reflex save. The DC for the save is the attack roll that hit the player. On a successful save the martial artist negates one point of damage for each point above the DC he rolled, but no more then half of the damage can be negated this way. He must decide to do this before the damage roll. At level 10 this improves and 2 points are negated per point above the DC, once again only half can be negated this way. At level 15 this improves again and he do this twice per round. (As cool as this sounds, it will often fail. Works well with touch attacks though)

Acrobatics Mastery: A martial artist adds his level to all acrobatics checks related to jumping, and double his level when falling. He always counts as having a running start. (Same as high jump for the monk, combined with half of the monk's slow fall)

Fast Movement: The martial Artist gains a speed increase the same as a monk but every five levels instead of every three

Magical Focus: The martial artist can select an object as a magical focus. Usually these are prayer beads, but it can be anything he can hold including a weapon. This item is can be upgraded as though it was a weapon, and any effects placed on it, as well as the material used, alter the martial artists unarmed attacks. The martial artist must be holding this item in order to gain its benefits, but this will not necessarily prevent him from holding something else, including a weapon, in that hand. In the case of prayer beads he will either wrap it around his hand or the weapon so that he can still use the weapon. This item only effects his natural attacks and gives the same bonus type as magic fang (i.e. doesn't stack with magic fang). This item is similar to the wizards bond for purposes of replacing it and damage done to it. Obviously this does not allow him to hold two weapons in the same hand.

Slashing Attack: A martial artist can make his attacks count as slashing damage instead of bludgeoning. He must announce his desire to do this before making his attack.

Intuitive Strike: Use Wisdom instead of Str for damage rolls, CMD, and all other martial manuevers. You may also substitute Wisdom for Strength when qualifying for feats.

Counter Defensive Casting: Casting defensively still provokes AoO against martial artists 6th or higher. A successful hit still requires a concentration check to keep the spell

Improved Deflection: Deflect Attack can now be used to deflect attacks made against allies within your threatened squares.

Improved Fortitude: Any effect that requires a fortitude save is completely eliminated on a successful save. If an effect requires multiple saves, only one is necessary. (I am not too familiar with high level effects that require fort saves, is this any good, should we make this better?)

Togath
2012-08-01, 10:45 PM
still very weak, even a normal monk would be better(and it's the third worst class in the game). I would also advise against using the fighter as a goal, as fighters are nearly as bad as monks.
You may want to take a look at JronK's tier list to get a better idea of power levels, and 3.0 OA and 3.5 ToB for ideas for abiltiies.
The only good parts of the class currently are the wisdom to attack and damage(at least one of which can be gained with a feat), and the enchant unarmed strikes thing. Most of the other abilities are either weak, or can be gained in a stronger form from feats available at level 1, such as multi damage unarmed strike(from PHBII, it allows any type of weapon damage and doesn't need to be reselected each round fi you dotn want to).