MoI confusion (rather... natural attack confusion)

[danzibr]

I gotta say I'm a big MoI fan. I like the flavor and think Totemist is totally awesome. I understand shaping, binding, essentia and all that business (at least... I think I do), and I finally got around to thoroughly reading all the Totemist soulmelds.

I'm confused on certain actions. A number of the totem binds grant... some sort of attack or another. I have a couple questions.

1) If you get a natural weapon and it doesn't specifically say you can use it as either primary or secondary, can you not use it as primary or secondary? Or rather, can you only not use an attack as primary or secondary if it does specifically say so?
1a) Also, do all primary natural attacks get +Str to damage and all secondary get +.5*Str to damage? In Unicorn Horn it just talks about 1d6 damage, no bonus from Str at all.
For example, look at Wormtail Belt. The text makes it very clear that you can't make any other attacks that round.
Then look at Unicorn Horn. It says, "You can gore with the unicorn horn as a natural weapon..." Does this mean you can use it as primary or secondary? Several soulmelds, like Winter Mask, specify the bite can be primary or secondary. If not, does it take a standard action to use it? Which leads me to

2) What action does it take to attack with some of these? I'm really just repeating the Unicorn Horn question here.

3) Suppose you have like, 20 natural weapons. Can you use only one as a primary weapon and all the rest as secondary unless mentioned otherwise? I know some claws can both be primary. At least, I think so. Like Landshark Boots or Sphinx Claws.

As an attempt to answer my own questions, if you get a clause that says something about gaining a natural weapon or being able to use something as a natural weapon, I assume that means (unless mentioned otherwise), when you make a full attack you choose one as the primary attack, then all the rest are secondary attacks, unless you have some that overlap, like Girallon Arms and Sphinx Claws. The primary attack (or more?) gets your full Str, all the rest get half Str (and some penalty to attack depending on Multiattack and Improved Multiattack or lack thereof).

Thanks.

[Aegis013]

Ok, I'll take a stab at the ones I think I remember, but most of these seem like "Ask your DM!" category questions. There might be RAW for it, but I don't where it is.

But I think I can answer 3.
As far as primary and secondary natural attacks, I believe you pick one type of natural weapon as your primary (such as claws, or bite, or gore, or what have you) and all of the remaining natural attacks fall into the secondary category.

Primary natural weapons typically get 1x str modifier.
Secondary natural weapons always only receive .5x str modifier. But in the case of Unicorn Horn, I say consult a DM.

I don't know if you've seen this, or how helpful it would be for you in this particular case, but this might be relevant: Natural Weapon's Mini-Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

[danzibr]

Ahh, that's a very useful link, thanks. One that I hadn't seen.

The guide answers #3, and you're basically right. Either a single natural weapon, or a pair, is primary, and usually gets +Str to damage (sometimes +1.5*Str), and *all* others are secondary unless it specifically says they can't be used with other natural attacks.

The guide also answers #1a.

Also, the answer to #3 makes me think the default setting, so to speak, of a natural weapon is that you can use it with others unless specifically stated. So the Unicorn Horn, for example, should be able to used as a primary or secondary natural attack like normal.

[Darrin]

1) If you get a natural weapon and it doesn't specifically say you can use it as either primary or secondary, can you not use it as primary or secondary? Or rather, can you only not use an attack as primary or secondary if it does specifically say so?


If the text doesn't state otherwise, a natural weapon can be used as either a primary or secondary attack. If you only have one, then that's your primary, and it can become a secondary attack if you're attacking with a manufactured weapon as well.

All primary natural attacks can become secondary attacks if they are not otherwise occupied (or the text specifies they are secondary-only). This comes from the SRD (under Manufactured Weapons):

"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks."

As secondary attacks, they get a -5 attack penalty and 1/2 Str bonus on damage.



1a) Also, do all primary natural attacks get +Str to damage and all secondary get +.5*Str to damage? In Unicorn Horn it just talks about 1d6 damage, no bonus from Str at all.


Yes, primary gets full Strength bonus, secondary gets half. (Note: *some* creatres get 1.5x Str bonus on their primary, usually a bite attack, but this is somewhat haphazardly given out, but only in the stat block, and generally not available to PCs.)



For example, look at Wormtail Belt. The text makes it very clear that you can't make any other attacks that round.


Yep. But the designers neglected to mention whether or not you can use it on AoOs... so by RAW, either you can, or you don't get any AoO's until the next round ("using the stinger is the only attack you can make in a given round").



Then look at Unicorn Horn. It says, "You can gore with the unicorn horn as a natural weapon..." Does this mean you can use it as primary or secondary? Several soulmelds, like Winter Mask, specify the bite can be primary or secondary. If not, does it take a standard action to use it?


Either. If you have multiple weapons, you can use the horn as your primary, or if not, then it becomes a secondary attack per the SRD rules. Standard, full-attack, charge, etc.



2) What action does it take to attack with some of these? I'm really just repeating the Unicorn Horn question here.


Same action a unicorn would take. Either a full-attack action or a standard action single attack. When an animal attacks, it uses the same types of action a PC would take.



3) Suppose you have like, 20 natural weapons. Can you use only one as a primary weapon and all the rest as secondary unless mentioned otherwise?


Yep.



I know some claws can both be primary. At least, I think so. Like Landshark Boots or Sphinx Claws.


Actually, you want to start with Girallon Arms + Double Chakra + Lamia Belt. From there you can add a bite via Fanged Mask (MIC) or Hunger domain (Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment). Add Dragonborn of Bahumat to swap one of your existing feats for Dragon Tail. If you need more, Person_Man has a guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595).




As an attempt to answer my own questions, if you get a clause that says something about gaining a natural weapon or being able to use something as a natural weapon, I assume that means (unless mentioned otherwise), when you make a full attack you choose one as the primary attack, then all the rest are secondary attacks, unless you have some that overlap, like Girallon Arms and Sphinx Claws. The primary attack (or more?) gets your full Str, all the rest get half Str (and some penalty to attack depending on Multiattack and Improved Multiattack or lack thereof).


Excelsior!

[eggs]

3) Suppose you have like, 20 natural weapons. Can you use only one as a primary weapon and all the rest as secondary unless mentioned otherwise? I know some claws can both be primary. At least, I think so. Like Landshark Boots or Sphinx Claws.
Only one set can be primary, but all members of that set can be primary at once.

So a Soulcaster who polymorphs into a giant squid and totem binds a Unicorn Horn can have 10 primary tentacle attacks, 1 secondary gore and 1 secondary bite.

Girallon Arms are uniquely weird in that respect (the set of natural weapons splits between primary/secondary).

[Deophaun]

1a) Also, do all primary natural attacks get +Str to damage and all secondary get +.5*Str to damage? In Unicorn Horn it just talks about 1d6 damage, no bonus from Str at all.
The one exception to this is if you only have a single natural attack, and you are using it as your primary, then you get 1.5*Str. So, if you're just using the Unicorn Horn, it's 1d6 + 1.5xStr. If you're using the Unicorn Horn as your primary and a pair of claws as secondary, it's just 1d6 + Str.

From the SRD:

An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus, and its damage includes its full Strength modifier (1-1/2 times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon).

[danzibr]

Thanks for the insight all. While I did appreciate all of it, this in particular caught my interest.

Girallon Arms are uniquely weird in that respect (the set of natural weapons splits between primary/secondary).
So the thing I was using as my main example is an oddity (well, not in the above posts but in general). That makes much more sense now.