Building a Monk in 3.5

[Steven]

So I'm playing my first proper campaign of D&D. I'm currently playing a character who I broke, both form a metagame and in character perspective, and I'm looking at making a new character to replace him with after the GM decides how to get rid of him.

I'm wanting to make a Monk but I've heard that they are under powered and don't want to invest time into a character that is going to be obsolete after we get into mid levels. At what point does a RAW monk stop being useful and are there any ways to make them a bit better?

My current theory involves a monk that uses a quarterstaff and makes use of the grapple and trip features. I know grapple doesn't work with a quarter staff but I can drop it and use unarmed strike for that part.

I rationalize going with a quarter staff because I can wield it two handed to get maximize my damage, 1.5 strength, or as part of flurry of blows depending on the monsters I'm fighting. Planning on taking improved trip and improved natural attack at lvl 6. At this point I'd probably drop the quarter staff.

Just hoping to get a few ideas for making it work as best I can.
Also is it likely to work pulling some of the pathfinder rules into 3.5 to make the class more viable?

[Cainen]

At what point does a RAW monk stop being useful
Level 6, hard. You want something like a Monk that doesn't fall off? Monk 2/PsyWar 18 with Talashtora is fine. Unarmed Swordsage is almost identical to the Monk in terms of flavor and can do almost everything the Monk can do and then some. Doesn't fall off.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the monk, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too. This has a feat tax from a feat in Eberron Campaign Setting, ask your DM if you have to take that feat or not, if you never plan on going back to Monk (which you don't).

3.) Barbarian, with several things done to it. Maybe use a Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement], Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Additionally, perhaps take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps-- though. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get as many of these as you can: Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike (Monster Manual or the System Resource Document), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun I think), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Compendium Volume 1). In fact, any of these builds could plausibly maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in Complete Divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape, and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps from Magic Item Compendium, or taking your gear off and putting it on after you shape).

Oh, just a note? NEVER TAKE VOW OF POVERTY (Book of Exalted Deeds).

[Deophaun]

3.) Barbarian, with several things done to it. Maybe use a Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement], Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Additionally, perhaps take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps-- though. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get as many of these as you can: Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike (Monster Manual or the System Resource Document), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun I think), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Compendium Volume 1). In fact, any of these builds could plausibly maybe use those items!
The bolded items do nothing for the build unless you actually have a natural weapon. An attack with an unarmed strike does not qualify.

Edit: Nevermind. Apparently there's an exception where magical enhancements that work on natural weapons work on unarmed strikes, even though the two are specifically called out as being distinct. Crazy WotC.

[Godskook]

The bolded items do nothing for the build unless you actually have a natural weapon. An attack with an unarmed strike does not qualify.

The necklace affects natural weapons. A monk's unarmed strikes are treated as natural weapons for 'effects'(and spells). I suppose you could argue that an item does not produce an 'effect', but afaik, Necklace works.

Fanged Ring sets precedence that you can take Improved Natural Attack for unarmed strikes, but that argument is moot in any game that allows the ring, cause you can just wear the ring.

Personally, while I suspect both are going to be accepted by his DM, I do think both need to be asked about to his DM, not dismissed out of hand by the board community.


I'm wanting to make a Monk but I've heard that they are under powered and don't want to invest time into a character that is going to be obsolete after we get into mid levels. At what point does a RAW monk stop being useful and are there any ways to make them a bit better?

lvl 2, honestlly, is the best breaking point for monk in general, and that's mostly cause of saves.

The options for making a 'decent' monk that I'm aware of are:

1.Unarmed Swordsage
2.Sacred Fist
3.Enlightened Fist
4.Tashalatora


My current theory involves a monk that uses a quarterstaff and makes use of the grapple and trip features. I know grapple doesn't work with a quarter staff but I can drop it and use unarmed strike for that part.

Pick one, grapple, trip or effective damage. Then:

If grapple, cry in corner.
If trip, play trip-fighter/crusader-type.
If damage, try a monk alternative


I rationalize going with a quarter staff because I can wield it two handed to get maximize my damage, 1.5 strength, or as part of flurry of blows depending on the monsters I'm fighting. Planning on taking improved trip and improved natural attack at lvl 6. At this point I'd probably drop the quarter staff.

Tripping is most useful with reach weapons to actually lock down areas of space.


Just hoping to get a few ideas for making it work as best I can.
Also is it likely to work pulling some of the pathfinder rules into 3.5 to make the class more viable?

If your DM allows homebrew, try Jiriku's homebrew monk. Its fairly good.

[Tokiko Mima]

Myself, I like a good Swordsage 2/ Warlock 3/ Shou Disciple 5/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Shadow Sun Ninja 7 build with the Eldritch Claws and Beast Strike feats. The unarmed damage is brutal and the abilities are interesting. I recommend choosing Flee the Scene for good ol' martial arts teleportation and escape artistry.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At what point does a RAW monk stop being useful

Level 1, unless you have four ability scores at 16+.

Put a Monk's Belt on just about any character that can benefit from a decent Wis score and you've got something vastly superior to a Monk, in both unarmed combat and general usefulness.

[GenghisDon]

So I'm playing my first proper campaign of D&D. I'm currently playing a character who I broke, both form a metagame and in character perspective, and I'm looking at making a new character to replace him with after the GM decides how to get rid of him.

I'm wanting to make a Monk but I've heard that they are under powered and don't want to invest time into a character that is going to be obsolete after we get into mid levels. At what point does a RAW monk stop being useful and are there any ways to make them a bit better?

My current theory involves a monk that uses a quarterstaff and makes use of the grapple and trip features. I know grapple doesn't work with a quarter staff but I can drop it and use unarmed strike for that part.

I rationalize going with a quarter staff because I can wield it two handed to get maximize my damage, 1.5 strength, or as part of flurry of blows depending on the monsters I'm fighting. Planning on taking improved trip and improved natural attack at lvl 6. At this point I'd probably drop the quarter staff.

Just hoping to get a few ideas for making it work as best I can.
Also is it likely to work pulling some of the pathfinder rules into 3.5 to make the class more viable?

It depends on what the other players are. You might be fine or you might be completely useless. Stunning Fist is a far, far better ability. CHOOSE improved grapple as a feat instead, if you desire.

If the party has 2 or more full casters, ask the DM for a free "fighter gestalt" or an extra 10-15 points for point buy. Non casters could get action points perhaps.

Some non-D&D feats, that are still d20 that might be worth some thought:
d20 Modern
"improved combat martial arts" req BAB+4, imp unarmed strike (equiv); is improved critical feat for unarmed strike, lower req

"advanced combat martial arts" req BAB+8, improved CMA; unarmed strike crits are x3 damage

"defensive MA": +1 dodge bonus vs melee attacks

"combat throw" req DMA; +2 bonus on str or dex checks for trips & grapple checks, offensively or defensively.

"improved combat throw" req BAB+3, DMA, com throw; free trip when opponent misses you (counts as AOO).

"elusive target" req 13+ dex, DMA; foes are -4 to hit you with ranged attacks while you are in melee with anyone, stacks with standard -4 for firing into melee.

"unbalance opponent" req BAB+6, DMA; chooose one foe within 1 size category of you; they gain no str bonus to hit you (but keep penalties), only to damage.

"knockout punch" req BAB+3, imp u str; when making your first un str vs a flat footed foe, treat it as a critical strike. damage is non-lethal.

"imp knockout punch" req BAB+6, KO punch; as KO punch, but the crit multiplier is raised to x3

Conan d20
"Crushing Grip" req str 17, BAB+8, imp grapple; when you inflict damage from grappling you can do ability damage (str, dex or con) instead. Fort save (10+1/2+str mod) halves the ability damage.

"defensive martial arts"; extra +2 AC when using total defense, +2 on str or dex checks for trips, overruns or grapples (off or def).

"Acrobatic Attack
��General��
You can make a series of attacks against your opponents while jumping and tumbling past them.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13+, Intelligence 13+, base attack bonus +6 or higher, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Skill Focus (Tumble)
Benefi t: A successful Tumble check (DC 25) allows you to tumble up to 20 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity. In addition, you may make a full attack action while you tumble but you may not attack from any single 5-
foot square more than once. You take a –2 penalty on each attack you make while using this feat.
Special: Acrobatic Attack cannot be used with ranged or reach weapons. If you use two weapons or a double weapon, you still may attack only once from any given 5-foot square.

Ambush ��General��
You are skilled at taking advantage of surprise
Prerequisite: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks , Improved Initiative
Benefi t: If you are aware of your opponents and they are not aware of you, you may take a full-round action during the surprise round.
Normal: During a surprise round, only partial actions are allowed.

Greater Blind-Fight
��General��
You prefer to fi ght in total darkness because you suffer no penalties and your foes usually do. Your instincts and almost supernatural awareness serves you well.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 17+, Improved Blind-Fight
Benefi t: You gain blindsight 10 ft. This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using non-visual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell or acute hearing, you manoeuvre and fi ght as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though you must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. You usually do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of your blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous and you need do nothing to use it.

Greater Trip
��General��
You are extremely skilled at knocking people down.
Prerequisites: Intelligence 15+, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Benefi t: You gain an additional +2 bonus on your Strength checks to trip your opponents and your follow-up attacks gain a +2 bonus to their damage rolls.

Improved Blind-Fight
��General��
Darkness does not faze you in a fi ght.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 15+, Blind-Fight
Benefi t: You essentially gain the blindsense ability. Using non-visual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, you notice things you cannot see. You usually do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within 15 feet, provided that you have line of effect to that creature. Any opponent you cannot see still has total concealment against you but you still function as under the Blind-Fight feat, except you can still Dodge ranged attacks if they originate within 15 feet of you. Visibility still affects your movement as per the Blind Fight feat. You are still denied your Defence against ranged attacks from creatures beyond 15 feet.

Resist Temptation
��General��
You are hardened to sexual advances and magical effects intended to entice you.
Benefi t: You gain a +4 resistance bonus on Will saves against spells or spell-like effects that affect the attitude of the victim. You also gain the resistance bonus against Diplomacy checks that have sexual overtones

Well, it IS a monk

Sidewinder ��General��
You are adept at striking an opponent who is otherwise occupied.
Benefi t: You gain a +2 damage bonus when you fl ank an opponent." hyboria's fallen

That's for starters.

[eggs]

It's pretty easy to build an effective character that uses the Monk concept and has a couple levels of Monk (throw 2 levels Monk in the front of pretty much any gish/psi-gish/Cleric/Druid build, mix in the appropriate mental stat-tuning feat if need be, and the character's going to tear things apart). Effective straightclassed monks are a bit harder, but they're not impossible by any means.

If you can find a way to move and flurry (there are plenty, especially factoring dips) and stack size bonuses for unarmed damage, Monk damage output isn't too hard to keep level-appropriate. Some stealth, perception and diplomacy ranks are usually a good way not to be useless out of combat. There are also a bunch of really good monk ACFs if you're willing to dumpsterdive splatbooks/Dragon magazines.

Two-handing a quarterstaff isn't a bad plan, but it loses most of its appeal once Necklaces of Natural Weapons and a way of moving and flurrying come into the picture.

Unfortunately, Grappling is something Monks don't do particularly well past the first few levels, and they don't play nicely with some of the tools that can normally force an awesome grapple score (Mancatchers, Hidden Talent: Grip of Iron, Shape Soulmeld: Girallon Arms, various self-buffing spells, etc). If you're considering incorporating Pathfinder materials, that flips completely: PF's Tetori monks aren't particularly great at cranking up the grapple modifiers, but they turn grappling into a tactic that can actually work.

[killianh]

I would suggest reading this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015) but as a personal opinion monk is only really worth the dip then any of the class stacking feats (Ascetic Hunter (CAd) Ascetic Knight (CAd) Ascetic Mage (CAd) Ascetic Rogue (CAd) Ascetic Stalker (CS) Tashalatora(EB:SoS)) unless alt class stuff and a cloistered cleric dip for travel domain.

Also this stuff is good
Feats
Circle Kick (SoF): every attack that hits give you an attack to hit a different foe.
Sun School (CW): tactical feat.
Lightning Fists (SoF): gives an extra attack, but all have -5 to hit.
Mantis Leap (SoF): double your str modifer on charges.
Snap Kick (ToB): gives an extra unarmed attack, but all have -2 to hit.
Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB): +4 monk level for unarmed damage.

Items
Monk's Belt: +4 monk level for unarmed damage and AC.
Ki Straps(?): +5 enhancement to stun DCs.
Necklace of Natural Weapons (SS): enhance this 900gp necklace as if it were a weapon, bonuses apply to unarmed strike.
Scorpion Kama (MiC): kama, deals as much as you unarmed attack so buy a large version for thf with your unarmed damage.
Sparing Dummy of the Master (A&E): move 10ft when you would make 5ft steps, handy.

Stunning Feats
Fist of the Heavens (BoED): +2 stunning DC.
Fists of Iron (CW): +1d6 damage instead of stunning.
Freezing The Lifeblood (CW): paralyze for 1d4+1 rounds instead of stunning.
Pain Touch (CW): nauseate foes for one round after stunning.
Rapid Stunning (CW): you can use an extra stun per round.
Weakening Touch (CW): -6 str instead of stunning.

Unarmed - Bonus Damage
Bracers of Lightning (MiC 206): bracers, adds shock to your attacks, not limited to unarmed only.
Stone Spikes (FF): graft, +1d4 piecing damage with unarmed attacks.
Rings of Force Armor (MiC): two rings worn as a set give ghost touch, +5 armor, and +1d4 force damage with unarmed attacks.
Flaming Fists (A&E): potion, +1d6 fire damage with unarmed attacks for three minutes, it is only 300 a pop so alchemical tooth it up.
Sun Soul Monk (CoV): feat, Selune gives +1 cold damage with unarmed attacks and they count as silver.
Vile Natural Attack (BoED): feat, +1 vile damage with unarmed attacks, vile damage cannot be cured unless you are in a consecrated area.
Ring of the Viper (FR:SK): ring, +1 damage and poison (dc 11, 1d6/1d6 con dmg).

Unarmed - Size Increases
Improved Natural Weapon (Core): feat, +1 size to unarmed damage.
(Eternal) Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop (MiC/RoD): 3rd lvl spell, increase the CL for +5 size to unarmed damage.
(Eternal) Wand of Mighty Wallop (RoD): 1st lvl spell, +1 size to unarmed damage. different spell & unnamed bonuses, it stacks.
Expansion (SRD:Psi): increases your size (amount varies by pp expenditure), a PsyWar give access and sets up for...
Ectoplasmic Fist (ECS): slotless, requires a manifester level of 1, +1 size to unarmed damage.

[Raoul Duke]

You can make an OK straight 3.5 edition Monk. Just pick feats like Improved Natural Attack to increase the dice roll for unarmed damage, and the Tome of Battle feat to count as a monk 4 (?) levels higher. Optimize for hit and damage. It's not as bad as people make it out to be.

A simple example:

Feats:
1 Power Attack
Bonus 1 Improved Grapple
Bonus 2 Combat Reflexes
3 Weapon Focus: Unarmed
6 Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual)
Bonus 6 Improved Trip
9 That feat that makes you count as a higher level monk for damages purposes (Tome of Battle)
12 Improved Critical: Unarmed
15 Cleave
18 Great Cleave

[Steven]

Thanks for all the info guys, it's given me heaps to ponder. Could someone clarify for me the why? What is it that monks lack?
I assume the lack of armour and items plays a part but, with my limited experience, I would have thought that they could make good anti-spellcasters. With a decent strength and improved grapple or improved trip couldn't their extra speed alow them to run around the place and remove the nasty spell caster from the picture? Or is that just wishful thinking?

Also, how do pathfinder monks compare? Are they in the same situation or do their ki points and, seemingly to me, better flurry progression make them strong enough to be useful?

The reason I ask is that we're currently working from the d20 SRD but I'm looking at buying books and I'm trying to figure out if I should go for pathfinder books or the standard 3.5 books.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm... I just got a strong hankering to make a Monk 2/Ranger 18, with Ascetic Hunter, Carmendine Monk and SotAO, plus the Shooting Star sub levels, and Arcane Hunter for good measure. Probably still underwhelming, all things considered, but it could work.

[kitcik]

You can make an OK straight 3.5 edition Monk. Just pick feats like Improved Natural Attack to increase the dice roll for unarmed damage, and the Tome of Battle feat to count as a monk 4 (?) levels higher. Optimize for hit and damage. It's not as bad as people make it out to be.

A simple example:

Feats:
1 Power Attack
Bonus 1 Improved Grapple
Bonus 2 Combat Reflexes
3 Weapon Focus: Unarmed
6 Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual)
Bonus 6 Improved Trip
9 That feat that makes you count as a higher level monk for damages purposes (Tome of Battle)
12 Improved Critical: Unarmed
15 Cleave
18 Great Cleave

Don't do this.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I assume the lack of armour and items plays a part but, with my limited experience, I would have thought that they could make good anti-spellcasters. With a decent strength and improved grapple or improved trip couldn't their extra speed alow them to run around the place and remove the nasty spell caster from the picture? Or is that just wishful thinking?

1) The wizard is a hydra and can outfight you.
2) The wizard has Abrupt Jaunt and won initiative (which isn't that hard for a wizard. Improved Initiative + hummingbird familiar + Nerveskitter).
3) The wizard has Contingent Dimension Door.
4) The wizard is flying.
5) All of the above.
6) The druid is a dire bear and can out-grapple you.
7) The druid's animal companion is a bear and can out-grapple you.
8) The druid's animal companion is a wolf and can trip you.
9) The druid's animal companion is a big cat and can out-pounce you. Because it actually gets Pounce.
10) The cleric has Freedom of Movement.
11) The cleric has Persistent Divine Power and Persistent Righteous Might up and can out-grapple you.

All of these except for 2 and 11 can be done in core-only. All can be done by mid-levels. 8 can be done at level 1, and 9 can be done at level 4.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well... a large number of things!

1.) Multiple attribute dependency
2.) Class features that don't work well together (speed improvements with a flurry that can only be used if you don't move... those don't work well together. Remember, you have to do a full attack to flurry, and flurrying lowers your strength bonus to damage, and also the speed improvements dont benefit from various other forms of magical speed increases)
3.) Lack of damage output (to hit and total damage, needs more ways to bump per hit damage)
4.) Lack of ability to actually resist many of the things they are supposed to be good at resisting
5.) Lack of ability to overcome Damage Reduction and myriad other defenses
6.) Lack of mobility modes (flight, swim, teleportations that don't suck, etc.)
7.) The supernatural abilities are generally watered down versions of spells that spellcasters got five or more levels ago
8.) Lack of role in a party (should probably be the mobility, skills, trap guy; should be able to replace the rogue, but can't)
9.) Lack of ranged options
10.) Abilities that are actually hindrances (ie, Spell Resistance makes it hard for you to be healed if you are dying, for example, perfect self causes several penalties when interacting with other rules, etc.)

Basically... compare the homebrew monk fix with the original monk class:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

Look at the two side by side, see what was changed, and then figure out WHY it was changed... Also note the feat changes!

[Piggy Knowles]

I think the monk WAS made as an anti-spellcaster, and it seems like it should work - good saving throws, evasion, still mind, spell resistance, etc. And sure, if your enemy is a relatively unbuffed spellcaster whose only goal is to sling fireballs and the occasional save or die, a monk wouldn't be too bad. Get in, resist the evil wizard's mighty fireball with your high reflex saving throw and evasion, and hit him with a stunning fist... wizards have low Fort saves, right?

The problem is, in practice, it just doesn't work like that. The monk has an increased speed but very little tactical movement, and wizards can start levitating out of reach by level 3. They've got very few ways to deal with a lot of lock-down spells, such as solid fog. They can grapple, but will have difficulty doing so effectively without the help of other casters to increase their size - and meanwhile, most casters will have "get out of jail free" cards such as dimension door, freedom of movement and heart of water... and that's assuming they don't just use polymorph or summon a critter to outgrapple you themselves.

So yeah. If your idea of fighting spellcasters is to take on a grounded warmage, you'll probably do OK with it... but then again, so would the big scary barbarian.

Of course, a Tashalatora Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 with a big reach weapon and the Mage Slayer feat line would do a decent job of it. But that says a lot more of Psychic Warrior than it does of Monk.

[Steven]

I really like the Remixed Monk rules linked above.
Gives me what I want from a monk, the ability to jump around like a maniac and do some damage, while keeping the feel of the 3.5 RAW.

Thanks again folks.