3.5 Fighter throwing build suggestions.

[TypoNinja]

So I've kind of hit this roadblock, I've got me a CG dwarf fighter 5/master thrower 5. Tossing axes, with TWF.

And I'm completely at a loss what to grab next, The character is thoroughly average, no shenanigans involved so far, Since I didn't really plan much I have a hard time getting into any PrC's that interest me as I didn't plan feat progressions and so far I'm stuck looking at just more fighter levels and climbing the weapon spec/weapon supremacy trees.

I've flipped around the various complete books already trying to find inspiration but nothing's jumped out at me, I feel like I should be able to do better than just more fighter levels and fighter feats, but so far that's all I can think of.

Any suggestions at all would be awesome, I have access to most of the books, so source material isn't too much of a worry, I just lack direction at this point.

[VGLordR2]

Bloodstorm Blade is great for throwers. It has awesome features, like making your weapons return to you instantly after the throw, in addition to other stuff. It also has pretty easy prereqs, IIRC. You can find them in Tome of Battle.

[Togath]

So I've kind of hit this roadblock, I've got me a CG dwarf fighter 5/master thrower 5. Tossing axes, with TWF.

And I'm completely at a loss what to grab next, The character is thoroughly average, no shenanigans involved so far, Since I didn't really plan much I have a hard time getting into any PrC's that interest me as I didn't plan feat progressions and so far I'm stuck looking at just more fighter levels and climbing the weapon spec/weapon supremacy trees.

I've flipped around the various complete books already trying to find inspiration but nothing's jumped out at me, I feel like I should be able to do better than just more fighter levels and fighter feats, but so far that's all I can think of.

Any suggestions at all would be awesome, I have access to most of the books, so source material isn't too much of a worry, I just lack direction at this point.

Why did you take 5 fighter levels rather then 4?
Also, aye i agree that bloodstorm blade would be good to aim for, though you may want to pick up a level or two or warblade in order to refresh your maneuvers faster to use your bloodstorm blade attacks more often)
You may also want to see if your DM would allow you to retrain your levels around a little bit to get even numbered levels in fighter and master thrower in order to boost your initiator level.
Also, when possible, you should train out at least some of your weapon focus feats, as they are very weak feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm guessing ToB is off the table if he made a thrower and ignored BSB. Since this is clearly a low-op environment as well, I feel comfortable suggesting Tempest from either complete warrior or complete adventurer. It'll eliminate those twf penalties and if you have any of the WF line it'll allow you to apply it to different weapons.

But pick up that sixth fighter level first. That dead level hanging out there has got to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

Edit: duh, of course you have WF. It's prerequisite to master thrower. Sometimes I really make myself feel dumb. :smallredface:

[killianh]

What would be helpful is knowing what feats you currently have. Feats like hurling charge are great and there are certain options that are\aren't worth it depending on the abilities of your weapon, armour, etc.

[killianh]

Class-wise I'll definitely say some warblade\BSB is your best bet, that or Hulking Hurler. Maybe even Warhulk might be worth it for the STR bonus

[Kelb_Panthera]

I can hazard a few guesses. Twf you've already mentioned. WF and PBS are required for master thrower. I think quickdraw is too. That leaves two feats unaccounted for, unless I'm mistaken. I'd also bet you picked up itwf. Yes? so what's the other?

edit: oops, forgot a fighter feat. That leaves two for the op to name for us. Three if I'm wrong about ITWF.

[GenghisDon]

Fighter 6

Throwing is pretty much ignored in 3.5. Tempest (as suggested prior) might be of interest. I doubt you have the intro feats

Ranger 2 (or even 3), particularily with the dungeoneer variant from dungeonscape, as you are a dwarf. I dunno what sort of armor you want to use however.

More fighter levels?

Re-skinned archer PRC for throwing? "order of the bow initiate" "cragtop archer", "deepwood sniper", or the like?

You could also just add a new focus to the character, and just maintain your emphasis on thrown weaponry via feats, ect. Psychic warrior perhaps.

[VGLordR2]

There's also a feat called Sting of the Manticore (I think). It requires your race to be Dwarf (which works out well). It adds some range to your weapons, and it will also act like Manyshot for your thrown weapons. I'm not sure how this works combined with the Master Thrower, though.

[Garwain]

interesting feat chains:

- power attack -> brutal throw -> power throw
(use STR instead of DEX on throws + use power attack on thrown weapons)

- TWF -> ITWF -> GTWF
(extra attacks)

- weapon focus -> weapon specialization -> ranged weapon mastery
(+3 to hit, +4 dam, +20ft range increment)

others:
- rapid shot, precise shot, improved precise shot
- knowledge devotion, divine might (cha to dam), holy warrior (reserve)
- collector of stories skill trick (to fuel knowledge devotion)
- improved initiative (hit them flatfooted)
- hit and run fighter variant (dex to dam when flatfooted)

interesting classes:
- 1 level dip into cloistered cleric
(turn attempts, 3 domains-> knowledge, war, travel)
knowledge devotion = +1-3 to hit/dam
travel devotion = use turn attempt to move so you can still full attack
war domain = usefull buffs

- Divine crusader (Cdiv p33)(need access to war domain)
(free weapon specialisation + fast spell progression => 4 levels makes you eligible for the holy warrior reserve feat (CC p60) gives untyped bonus to weapon damage.

- 1 level of Ordained champion (CC p90, must worship heironeous or hextor)
(free war domain, spontanious war domain casting, trade domains for fighter feats)

- 2 levels marshal (Miniatures handbook)
(+1 dam aura, CHA to dex checks, including initiative)

sources:

cloistered cleric - Unearthed Arcana
Master thrower - complete warrior
Brutal throw - complete adventurer
Power throw - complete adventurer
Collector of Stories - Complete Scoundrel p85
Knowledge devotion - complete champion p60
Divine Might - complete champion
Holy Warrior - complete champion
Ordained Champion - complete Champion p90
ranged weapon mastery - PHBII
Hit and Run Tactics fighter variant - Drow of the Underdark
gloves of agile strike - MiC

[TypoNinja]

I go to sleep, and you fill the thread! so many replies!


I'm guessing ToB is off the table if he made a thrower and ignored BSB. Since this is clearly a low-op environment as well,

Right on both counts, ToB is one of the very few books we don't have, otherwise a crazily well stocked bookshelf.

Feats are

Weapon focus
Weapon spec
Precise Shot
Point Blank Shot
TWF
ITWF
TWD
Quick Draw
Improved Crit
Snatch Arrows


GTW and weapon mastery (and I think supremacy, don't have a PHB2 with me) are on the list of feats I want for obvious reasons. Extra attacks always good, and the +range increment will stop my accuracy from taking a nose dive when I'm further away than spitting distance.

Power throw is tempting, but I probably won't get to it unless I stay fighter, just too many feats otherwise. Would Power Throw work with the Master Thrower ranged touch attack ability?

I was sort of looking at dungeon delver, just for things like the extra darkvision and improved evasion, it's kind of tied with "more fighter" as my best options at this point I think.

Hulking hurler could be fun, as long as I don't take it to "I throw a mountain" levels of silly, that would get me hit over the head with a DMG :P. How do I qualify though? I need to be large sized don't I?

Burned most of my WBL on weapons so far, got me a Fleshgriding, and a Returning throwing axe. Saving up to finish off the collection.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Feats are

Weapon focus
Weapon spec
Precise Shot
Point Blank Shot
TWF
ITWF
TWD
Quick Draw
Improved Crit
Snatch Arrows

How are you getting Snatch Arrows without Deflect Arrows? PrC feature?

And get rid of TWD. The +1 is not worth it, ever.


Also, Tempest sucks. Just putting that out there. Fighter 10/Master Thrower 10 (not in that order) would be better.

[Gavinfoxx]

So train out Snatch Arrows and Two Weapon Defense for some of the options Garwain mentioned... and you should be a fighter 4 or a fighter 6; fighter 5 is just... eww...

go for ranged weapon mastery, you have most of the prereq...

[Kelb_Panthera]

How are you getting Snatch Arrows without Deflect Arrows? PrC feature?

And get rid of TWD. The +1 is not worth it, ever.


Also, Tempest sucks. Just putting that out there. Fighter 10/Master Thrower 10 (not in that order) would be better.

I'm almost certain that master thrower is only a 5 lvl class, and that's where he got snatch arrows. He may not be able to lose TWD since he's already in play, in which case ITWD can be worthwhile when fighting defensively. A +4 shield bonus isn't a bad thing.

In a high op environment, tempest would be subpar, but the OP is not in a high-op environment, by his own admission. It gets him some benefits that would otherwise be hard to get, since he doesn't have access to ToB. I think it's a good fit for what he's doing already, and I'm pretty sure that he already meets the feat requirements.

It's ultimately his decision though.

@op: You can't qualify for weapon supremacy, unless your DM waves the fighter level requirement.

Edit: looked them up. Master thrower is a 5 level class, but I couldn't have been much more wrong about him meeting tempest's requirements. I still think it's a good option in this case, but it's not quite as obvious a choice now. Three more fighter levels, like he's considering anyway, will let him pick up spring attack and allow him to qualify.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think Master Thrower had some weird history with it, how it was originally intended to be a certain class, but something happened and it ended up with some really odd rules...

Uhm, someone else can explain this better than me..

[VGLordR2]

I think Master Thrower had some weird history with it, how it was originally intended to be a certain class, but something happened and it ended up with some really odd rules...

Uhm, someone else can explain this better than me..

I think you're thinking of the Invisible Blade. IIRC, it was originally meant to be a PrC based around throwing daggers. However, they changed the focus to feinting. When they did that, they forgot to change the prerequisites. It requires Far Shot and Point Blank Shot to enter, and the class can't make good use of either of those.

[Gavinfoxx]

Maybe. Was there a 10 level version of either?

[roguemetal]

Definitely grab Master Thrower, maybe check out Ranged Weapon Mastery. Get the other TWF feats when they become available.

+1 to Power Attack>Brutal Throw>Power Throw

GRAB A CLERIC CLASS
With the spell Divine Favor you make up for the lack of BAB entirely, and gain some serious versatility with Cleric levels.

[GenghisDon]

interesting feat chains:

- power attack -> brutal throw -> power throw
(use STR instead of DEX on throws + use power attack on thrown weapons)

- TWF -> ITWF -> GTWF
(extra attacks)

- weapon focus -> weapon specialization -> ranged weapon mastery
(+3 to hit, +4 dam, +20ft range increment)

others:
- rapid shot, precise shot, improved precise shot
- knowledge devotion, divine might (cha to dam), holy warrior (reserve)
- collector of stories skill trick (to fuel knowledge devotion)
- improved initiative (hit them flatfooted)
- hit and run fighter variant (dex to dam when flatfooted)

interesting classes:
- 1 level dip into cloistered cleric
(turn attempts, 3 domains-> knowledge, war, travel)
knowledge devotion = +1-3 to hit/dam
travel devotion = use turn attempt to move so you can still full attack
war domain = usefull buffs

- Divine crusader (Cdiv p33)(need access to war domain)
(free weapon specialisation + fast spell progression => 4 levels makes you eligible for the holy warrior reserve feat (CC p60) gives untyped bonus to weapon damage.

- 1 level of Ordained champion (CC p90, must worship heironeous or hextor)
(free war domain, spontanious war domain casting, trade domains for fighter feats)

- 2 levels marshal (Miniatures handbook)
(+1 dam aura, CHA to dex checks, including initiative)

sources:

cloistered cleric - Unearthed Arcana
Master thrower - complete warrior
Brutal throw - complete adventurer
Power throw - complete adventurer
Collector of Stories - Complete Scoundrel p85
Knowledge devotion - complete champion p60
Divine Might - complete champion
Holy Warrior - complete champion
Ordained Champion - complete Champion p90
ranged weapon mastery - PHBII
Hit and Run Tactics fighter variant - Drow of the Underdark
gloves of agile strike - MiC


I think Garwain covered everything in the WOTC 3.5 books above.

I am amazed a thrower/missle character could get past low levels without rapid shot. I guess some trickshots from the PRC cover it. It may very well still be nice to use in combo.

lowly far shot is actually pretty handy for thrown weapons, due to their crap RI's.

I hope the DM doesn't allow one to re-train away feats granted by class/PCR.

About the only thing not mentioned is dodge, mobility, shot on the run.
Along with spring attack for tempest, MAYBE, although I was sure you couldn't be ready for that feat hungry PRC.

I still think Fighter 6 is the best next level, and ranged weapon mastery X is probably the best feat short term, although, to be honest, melee weapon mastery: slashing is likely to be better overall. Axes are, after all, slashing melee weapons & there is nothing in the text to indicate why the +2+2 wouldn't apply wether thrown or used in HTH. It just seems odd.

Maybe ask the DM to create "thrown weapon mastery" that gives +2+2 & +10 RI to ALL throwing weapons.

ranged weapon mastery really ought be just spilt into 2 feats, missle (bows, crossbows, slings) & thrown (all other weapons with a RI). P/B/S is crap for it, unlike melee.

[Hiro Protagonest]

About the only thing not mentioned is dodge, mobility, shot on the run.

That's because they suck.

Granted, if you use the wording of "attack action" to mean "standard or full attack", it becomes much better, but Spring Attack has the same wording, and it has the two extra feats to provide iteratives. Plus, while I still think it's valid on the warblade recovery, the difference in wording between the warblade and the feats is the feats say "THE attack action" rather than "AN attack action".

So yeah, sucks.

[GenghisDon]

I generally agree, although for an archer, it has considerable use. Move out of 100% cover, multishot, then move back into 100% cover. Typically this is entering a room in a dungeon/building, shoot X arrows as one attack, then move back out of the room.

It can be effective. Great for a scout/missle type as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

Greater Manyshot with a winged race, with Fly by attack or travel devotion or whatever, and something to increase to hit chances, like knowledge devotion, is okay I suppose...

[TypoNinja]

Tempest was the one that removed the final -2 -2 for TWF wasn't it? I was looking at that, but the entirely useless Dodge Mobility Spring Attack feat tax made me discard it.

What I'm trying to do with him is use the throwing so I don't need to move, more chances at full attack, which can be devastating with the master thrower cap stone ability. I make touch attacks to hit so those last two attacks you usually just fish for crits with I still hit on.

Yea, Snatch arrows was PRC ability, so was Quick Draw. You'd think Quick Draw would be a pre-req, but nope, first level ability.

The tone of the game is such that they flavor is almost as important, so I like the suggestion of hulking hurler if somebody could explain how I go about qualifying? I thought it was out cause I'm not large but if there's a way in I might be able to justify it even if its total cheese just for the flavor.

TWD is the only feat I could train out at this point, everything else either being class abilities, or pre-requisites, or must haves (like TWF)

Since everybody keeps bringing it up, I'm fighter 5 because that's when you qualify for Master Thrower, I then took all 5 (its only a 5 level PrC,) levels of Master Thrower, and came to the playground to find out what to do next. Yes I'm aware one more level of fighter gets me more BaB, saves, and a feat, but until now I had judged the PrC more important. I was thinking one level of fighter next since I'd be 11th and that bonus feat would look real good with the next TWF feat netting me 2 new attacks, but I can wait till 12th for that if there are other good options.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why were you fighter 5 rather than fighter4/some full bab base class 1, we mean. Fighter 5 gives you nothing. Unless you plan on going Fighter 6.

[GenghisDon]

But L6 fighter now will.

I know it's anathama on this board, but I/we don't ALLOW PCR's willy nilly. Maybe that group avoids chessey crap as well, good on them if they do.

(melee) weapon mastery: slashing still sounds to good to pass up, and aids your stand & deliver choice as well as later melee attacks.

rapid shot (via fighter feat or ranger 2 dip) is also great for stand & deliver attacks.

[TypoNinja]

Why were you fighter 5 rather than fighter4/some full bab base class 1, we mean. Fighter 5 gives you nothing. Unless you plan on going Fighter 6.

I did initially, then missed a few games, came back was told the party was 5 levels higher, flipped around for PRC's and master thrower looked like fun (and something I could max out right away, no waiting! :P) At that point 5 MT seemed better than 1 Fighter and 4 MT.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I know it's anathama on this board, but I/we don't ALLOW PCR's willy nilly. Maybe that group avoids chessey crap as well, good on them if they do.

So trying to get as many good PrCs as possible for a fighting style that's pretty weak is cheesy crap now? Funny, I thought that was infinite loops. Or perhaps straight wizards. Or maybe the real ubercharger. Not warblade/barbarian/BSB/Master Thrower, which is a perfectly fine, high tier 4/low tier 3 build.

Let me give you this example. Water Orc Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Ferocity Barbarian 1/Zhentarim Soldier Thug Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Fighter +8/Crusader 9. Full ranks in intimidate, guisarme + armor spikes, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Power Attack, Stand Still. It is a perfectly good build that works in many mid-op campaigns, defending The Mailman or dishing out half-decent DPS and lockdown for GOD. It uses six or seven sourcebooks, depending on the specifics of feat setup.

Another build. Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 10/Master Thrower 5. Two different PrCs, from two different sourcebooks, both taken all the way. Result? A good solid build for a niche fighting style taken for style, not power.

Now, Wizard 15/Archmage 5. One base class. One core PrC. Takes ninetysome percent of games and snaps them over its knee.

You shouldn't have to ban books, classes, PrCs, or even individual feats. No matter what you do, there's always going to be a broken build, or you're going to have to run a campaign where everyone is forced to play a VoP monk or fighter. Ban players, not books.

[GenghisDon]

I'm sorry, no, having a second PRC that suits/fits isn't bad at all.

On the rest, I'm sorry, but it's just gibberish to me. "Water Orc Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Ferocity" Blah, Blah, Blah. Sorry man, but D&D doesn't have to have, or even usually have, every splatbook ever made to play the game. Half or more of what you say for a build isn't any part of any game I ever played, nor do I even want to play that game. I don't even know how one could recognise it as D&D anymore, but YMMV & that's all fine.

I don't want to know what a water orc is, I don't want to play one, & I don't want to DM one.

Ban books? how about simply not being interested in them? Especially the later ones which are simply testing grounds for 4e?

No offense, but while we might play a game called D&D 3.5e on the cover, we actually play completely different games. They don't bear even a slight resemblance to each other.

I've no idea where the OP falls on the scale of "how much stuff is in our D&D game", and perhaps you are going to be extremely helpful to him. Hopefully you are.

I'm just sayin', assuming everyone uses everything, at all times, and MUST focus so entirely on absolute mastery of niche archetype X or be rendered useless/dead, isn't always going to be helpful.

You seem like a relatively good guy, Jade Dragon, you aren't just mocking the OP for being a fighter, having fighter L5, or the like, as some do/are. You appear to mean well, but can you really not conceive of people playing with only a few books, or even just the core ones? Cripes, I've got a damn heavy stack of books (several, if other editions/games are counted) myself, and know them well, and like to use much of them (discarding the stuff I don't care for). But my players generally don't & when Bill occassionaly DM's, he just uses the PH/DMG/MM. I get where you are coming from (I think), when I make up a character & can't do X or Y from complete warrior or tome of magic, but you know what? We still can have fun (& beat the crap out of monsters) just playing an elf barbarian 7, dwarf cleric 7, half orc rogue 7, and human sorcerer 7.

[TypoNinja]

Extra PrC's aren't an issue, even crazy dips I'm ok with. I've got a were tiger monk1/fighter1 into warshaper, end product is the issue. Yes I know how (or at least know where to ask to find out :P) to utterly break the game with things like the mail man or hulking hurlers that do 1k d6's a throw, but that's only fun to talk about, not play.

The games I play are pretty low OP by the standards of these boards, and we do wacky things like stop and build a city when all we got called in to do was clear the bandits out of the local oasis.

Now a Dwarf throwing axes who runs out of axes and then gets mad and hauls a giant keg of beer out of his bag of holding to throw it at you, that's freaking hilarious, and worth aiming for.

This guy has already stopped a dungeon crawl midway through cause he found a 400 gallon barrel of Dwarven Ale, and refused to go on with the vanquishing of evil till he'd made sure the beer was safely secured in the wagon out front.

The point I'm trying to make is that rule of fun is king, while I don't want too much cheese, the better it matches the theme the more acceptable cheese is. Prime example is my favorite custom magic item ever. The Decanter of Endless Tequila for my Drunken Master.

So on that note, somebody mentioned I could go hulking hurler, I'm curious what trick I use to qualify?

[Kelb_Panthera]

That gives me an idea. A quick dip in something to get flurry of blows (perhaps chaos monk) followed by drunken master.

If you're interested DM was one of the Iron Chef op challenge secret ingredients recently, and I'm pretty sure every trick you can use to qualify was.

Extra attacks from whatever gets you flurry, and it sounds like the flavor of DM and the flavor of your character would be a good match.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't want to know what a water orc is, I don't want to play one, & I don't want to DM one.
...

It's right there in UA. Or on the SRD. It's not some super-obscure source like Exemplars of Evil.

Ban books? how about simply not being interested in them?
Same thing. Alternatively, worse, because it marks you as too lazy to read content that totals at about a few pages, not a few books.

Especially the later ones which are simply testing grounds for 4e?

To me, claiming that later books are "4e prototypes" is an insult of the highest order. At least, when coming from someone who phrases it in a way that makes it clear they hate 4e. By the late game, the devs knew what they were doing. They were making good, balanced content like Tome of Battle.

[GenghisDon]

Heh, I thought it could be the UA race. While it's an overall worthwile book indeed, the race stuff, especially elemental ones, leaves me so cold I doubt I ever fully read it all. The last thing the game needs is MORE idiotic race types crawling (swimming?) around.

Too lazy? Nope, I just can't stand garbage anymore.

Well, you can be offended, but I went out of my way trying NOT to offend you. I don't hate (or love) 4e, but if I want 4e style gaming, I'd prefer it be in that game & not another.

The much touted TOB is a great example. It may, in fact, "fix" martial classes entirely compared to spellchuckers. It doesn't matter overly much, as I found it uterly blah & shan't be purchasing or using it, ever. Aside from a couple of feats, it's of no use to me at all. It's a shame, I actually had some interest going into reading it, due to all the hype, but I didn't like it AT ALL. YMMV. You want to be angry I don't care for something you like? Go right ahead.

[Gavinfoxx]

What was your reason for not liking it? Realism?

It is most possible to make a tome of battle character that most closely evokes real world sword martial arts, and the flow of real world sword fighting, with tome of battle than any other D&D book.

[GenghisDon]

What was your reason for not liking it? Realism?

It is most possible to make a tome of battle character that most closely evokes real world sword martial arts, and the flow of real world sword fighting, with tome of battle than any other D&D book.

If realism is anime, sure. Flaming fists/swords et all aren't "real world".

How many martial arts or combat techniques in the real world "allow" a prectitioner to "forget" their basics to gain mastery of advanced techniques?

I don't hate 4e, so I can play a fighter with "spells" in that game.

Maybe I should give the warblade (only) more of a chance, but to be honest, completely invavidating half the classes in the pre-existing game for them to be included doesn't seem too appetising.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, because a monk doesn't have any overtly supernatural abilities...

Look. VERY VERY LITTLE of the actual maneuvers are supernatural. It is just that the first school shown in the book has overtly supernatural abilities. Look at what the maneuvers do, and if they have the Su tag or not.

And flaming swords? DMG...

And you have to look at what is happening from a not ONLY rules perspective:

*He isn't forgetting basic techniques, he is relegating them to non-combat encounters, having decided to focus on more advanced techniques.

*He doesn't forget how to do a maneuver when it is expended in a fight, he has gotten into a position where he needs to reset his stance to do that maneuver again, which happens in real fights all the time (he could do the manuever against a cooperating opponent in a non combat, practice situation over and over again)


Also.. to note? Tome of battle didn't invalidate classes. Those classes were already invalidated, by dozens of other classes in the game. What it did was let some melee classes play in the same games as the big boys without feeling like one trick ponies, and give easy to spot v.2.0 versions of those classes, for games where the big boys would be present.

And anyway, western mythology and legend has a ton of over the top weapon powers and unrealistic combat in it; anime doesn't have a monopoly on that! Do your research.

Just make an Iron Heart and Stone Dragon Warblade, who uses powers that, while superhuman, aren't overtly supernatural. Call him Ajax or Achilles or something. Make him entirely western, entirely martial.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If realism is anime, sure. Flaming fists/swords et all aren't "real world".

How many martial arts or combat techniques in the real world "allow" a prectitioner to "forget" their basics to gain mastery of advanced techniques?

I don't hate 4e, so I can play a fighter with "spells" in that game.

Maybe I should give the warblade (only) more of a chance, but to be honest, completely invavidating half the classes in the pre-existing game for them to be included doesn't seem too appetising.

Ah. The "Desert Wind" syndrome, in which you read the first two disciplines in the book and disgustedly threw it down for being "weaboo fightan magiks".

[roguemetal]

Also.. to note? Tome of battle didn't invalidate classes. Those classes were already invalidated, by dozens of other classes in the game. What it did was let some melee classes play in the same games as the big boys without feeling like one trick ponies, and give easy to spot v.2.0 versions of those classes, for games where the big boys would be present.

ToB didn't help fighters that much though, and to be honest, helped casters even more. It wasn't balancing the game, just making it unbalanced for everybody, and therefore made it somewhat equal.

It's the 'everything is broken so nothing is broken' syndrome.
You can make a competent fighter without it.
God forbid casters use their spells to buff someone who aren't themselves.

[GenghisDon]

Ah. The "Desert Wind" syndrome, in which you read the first two disciplines in the book and disgustedly threw it down for being "weaboo fightan magiks".

pretty much

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hey guys, how does this discussion of ToB help the op with his fighter? He's already said that it's off the table. Maybe a spinoff thread, or a PM discussion would be appropriate?

@typoninja: Have you considered picking up a dip in something with SA since you're already doing the TWF thing?

[Hiro Protagonest]

ToB didn't help fighters that much though, and to be honest, helped casters even more. It wasn't balancing the game, just making it unbalanced for everybody, and therefore made it somewhat equal.
...Alright, HOW THE HELL does it help casters more than fighters?

Besides, when a game is broken at the core, you have two options.
A) New edition. One that could alienate a sizable minority of your player base.
B) Ignore the core as much as possible.

WotC decided both.

It's the 'everything is broken so nothing is broken' syndrome.

This is just wrong. ToB is not broken. It is not tier 1, it is not tier 2, it is tier 3. Sure, ToB has a couple infinite loops and Iron Heart Surge abuse. But core fighter can grab a Candle and make infinite wish loops. Splatbook barbarian/fighter has Ubercharger (the real one, which does thousands of damage).

[TypoNinja]

Hey guys, how does this discussion of ToB help the op with his fighter? He's already said that it's off the table. Maybe a spinoff thread, or a PM discussion would be appropriate?

@typoninja: Have you considered picking up a dip in something with SA since you're already doing the TWF thing?

I did for a while, but since I'm throwing and not melee there's no flanks for me, which makes it a lot harder to apply that Sneak Attack damage.

Someone mentioned further up the Hulking Hurler as an option, but never explained how I qualify, that would fit the character theme wonderfully if I could pull it off.

[GenghisDon]

I suppose a permanent enlarge person or righteous might effect would be a way to qualify for HH.

sorry for all the OT

[Kelb_Panthera]

my usual trick for HH entry is a three level dip in stone-blessed (of the goliaths) from races of stone, followed by a 1 level dip in barbarian for mountain rage, a goliath sub-level in the same book. You get a +2 to con, a small to-hit/armor bonus against a few critters, and the ability to become large when you rage. The best part is that since you only count as large when you're raging, when you're not, you don't have to deal with HH........ crap, I got hulking hurler and war hulk mixed up. The trick still works, but it's slightly less good. Only slightly mind.

Though that does bring up the War Hulk/ Legacy Champion trick. Like I was saying, when you're not raging you don't have to deal with War Hulk's no time to think class feature. You've got your skills when you need them, and you've got a huge str bump when you don't. War Hulk is in the mini's handbook btw.