With Pleasure...

[Loki Eremes]

Hi there Fellas.

Old DM, New setting. 3.5 edition.
DM: "Would you people like to use Devils from Monster Manual & Fiendish codex to doom a city forever and their inhabitants?"
...and here we are.



The problem is the choice.

Im standing between
the Succubus (MM1) and the Pleasure Devil (FiendishCodex 2)
Yes yes i know, Succubus are chaotic evil DEMONS, not devils, but he allowed it on the list of races as a LE Devil.

Now to the problem.

He limited us to be CR12.
- Succubus is [LA+6]
- Pleasure Devil is a [CR 11] (could not find LA...)
((I screwed this bad, my apologies, he meant CR12, not ECL12))


So my problem is the choice.
Succubus allows me to fill those extra 6 lvls with character lvls but...
she's not as good as a Pleasure Devil, which SLA's and other stuff are simply amazing but only gives me 1 lvl to fill.

This is going to be more of a "be secretive and try not to be discovered" campaing, so im a bit lost on what is the best for that. (yes, sorry, im too used to kill and blow **** up...)

...ooh, and i forgot to tell you we have lvl 12 Wealth to spend!



So...im asking for advise, and i ask you:
which would you choose? and which lvls would you go with???

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think you're confusing CR (Challenge Rating) and ECL (Effective Character Level).

Level adjustment only applies to ECL, it never ever touches CR. If your DM specifically said CR 12, then a Succubus is CR 7 and you get to ignore its LA +6, as that only applies to its ECL. If using CR instead of ECL, you can add Outsider HD or nonassociated class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng) at +2 HD/levels per +1 CR. Note that for a Succubus you can add five levels of one class and then five of a different class and neither will ever be considered associated. For example, give it Sorcerer 5/ Mindbender 1/ Incantatrix 4 and it will be CR 12.

If your DM said ECL 12, then you can't add anything to a Succubus because it already has Outsider 6 and a +6 LA. Racial HD count toward your character level, and they are never optional.

[stabbitty death]

really can't give advice here, as I don't have fc2, but could you do a campaign journal? It sounds like it's going to be really interesting.

[Loki Eremes]

I think you're confusing CR (Challenge Rating) and ECL (Effective Character Level).

Level adjustment only applies to ECL, it never ever touches CR. If your DM specifically said CR 12, then a Succubus is CR 7 and you get to ignore its LA +6, as that only applies to its ECL. If using CR instead of ECL, you can add Outsider HD or nonassociated class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng) at +2 HD/levels per +1 CR. Note that for a Succubus you can add five levels of one class and then five of a different class and neither will ever be considered associated. For example, give it Sorcerer 5/ Mindbender 1/ Incantatrix 4 and it will be CR 12.

If your DM said ECL 12, then you can't add anything to a Succubus because it already has Outsider 6 and a +6 LA. Racial HD count toward your character level, and they are never optional.

I...emmm....got totally confused here xD. But i know i messed up good time with the Level Adjustment and Challenge Rating thing.
I think he actually referred to ECL.

We were talking today with one of the players and he choosed an Assassin Devil (FC2). It is a CR 11, but LA+6 and got me very confused too.




really can't give advice here, as I don't have fc2, but could you do a campaign journal? It sounds like it's going to be really interesting.

From what he revealed to us, we are going to be Devils who will be sent to this city to harvest as many souls as possible, and, if in the process, we make the place a living hell worthy of Asmodeus praise, the better.
But this aint gonna be that easy....
We will arrive with no information whatsoever of the place, and Paladin precense will be strong, so we need to make things trying not to expose our diabolical selves. :sabine:
.... and that is all he revealed us.

[stabbitty death]

I wish that any one of my three DMs(from different gaming groups of course)were awesome enough to run a campaign like that:smallsmile:

[The Random NPC]

As Biffoniacus_Furiou said earlier, you could be a Succubus without a class, but the Pleasure Devil has 12 hit dice already, so if it has even a +1 level adjust, you can't play it. Honestly you'd probably be better off playing a human with class levels and just saying you're a devil.

[Yuki Akuma]

As Biffoniacus_Furiou said earlier, you could be a Succubus without a class, but the Pleasure Devil has 12 hit dice already, so if it has even a +1 level adjust, you can't play it. Honestly you'd probably be better off playing a human with class levels and just saying you're a devil.

This. A level 12 character with actual class levels is vastly superior to a Succubus.

If he insists, play a Lesser Tiefling.

[Loki Eremes]

Biffoniacus_Furiou

So, now im confused with the Associated and Nonassociated Class Levels. :smallfrown:
How do you judge which are associated and which are not?
How do you judge in both the case of the succubus and the pleasure devil?

It looks rather obvious in the Assassin Devil case, because of the Sneak Attack ability....

Rules say that if you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated....but adding for example a Sorcerer class to a CHA 26 monster.... it seems pretty associated to me.... but again, i am the one trying to understand this :smallredface:



As Biffoniacus_Furiou said earlier, you could be a Succubus without a class, but the Pleasure Devil has 12 hit dice already, so if it has even a +1 level adjust, you can't play it. Honestly you'd probably be better off playing a human with class levels and just saying you're a devil.

This. A level 12 character with actual class levels is vastly superior to a Succubus.

If he insists, play a Lesser Tiefling.


yeah i know its easier, but would take away the point of the setting.

[Yuki Akuma]

And the point of the campaign is... what exactly? A Tiefling can still work for the dark powers.

Associated and nonassociated classes do not matter to you. At all. They are a DM thing to determine the Challenge Rating of monsters the PCs are meant to fight. The CR is not something you should worry about.

If your DM is making you worry about it, smack him with the Monster Manual. Preferably open to the section detailing how playing a monster as a PC works, because he clearly hasn't read it.

[Loki Eremes]

And the point of the campaign is... what exactly? A Tiefling can still work for the dark powers.

Associated and nonassociated classes do not matter to you. At all. They are a DM thing to determine the Challenge Rating of monsters the PCs are meant to fight. The CR is not something you should worry about.

If your DM is making you worry about it, smack him with the Monster Manual. Preferably open to the section detailing how playing a monster as a PC works, because he clearly hasn't read it.

The point of the campaing is, for once, put us, the players, in the skin of the monsters. Change the roles. Put on the other shoes without having to be DM and be alone controling everything to experience it.

Please Yuki, this is not the problem im dealing with now....and the thread is drifting away from the topic, so I'll like to kindly ask you to give me some advice on the main query and restrain yourself from telling me how to smack my DM xD

[supermonkeyjoe]

I think the first thing you need to do is find out exactly what your limits are CR12, ECL 12 or what. And make sure your DM and other players know what system they are using:

CR = Challenge rating, how tough something is for a party of adventurers to fight, shouldn't be used for creating characters at all, ever.

ECL= Effective Character level, your Hit dice plus any Level adjustment (LA) this is the level that your character is supposedly equivalent to.

Some examples:

Level 12 human fighter: 12 fighter hit dice, 0+ LA so equivalent to a 12th level character

Level 8 half-dragon human fighter: 8 fighter hit dice, +4 LA so equivalent to a 12th level character

Succubus: 6 outsider hit dice , +6 LA, equivalent to a 12th level character

Assassin Devil: 14 Hit Dice, +6 LA equivalent to a level 20 character.

[Eldest]

One possibility would be to use a homebrewed Succubus class. This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11817991&postcount=118) works very well with Bard, especially the prestige class version. I would suggest having 5 levels of bard and all 7 levels of the prestige class version.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If one player has already chosen an Assassin Devil, it's CR 11 but with 14 HD and +6 LA, so it's definitely a CR 12 limit, not ECL 12. That means don't even look at LA, it's irrelevant.

A Succubus uses stealth and trickery to dupe opponents into getting energy drained. It doesn't have any spellcasting capability already, so levels in a spellcasting class typically wouldn't be considered associated. However, high-tier spellcasting classes can typically be used to make any creature better at what it already does, in which case they should be considered associated, so Sorcerer wasn't a good example. If you were to take something like Warmage 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 5, then it would definitely be nonassociated. A Succubus is meant to be subtle and feeling, whereas those levels are focused entirely on being direct and calculating.

[Andorax]

Basically, what SuperMonkeyJoe said...

If, as Biffoniacus said, you are actually allowed to be CR 12 (and really, this makes no sense mechanically, but hey...it's your DM) then conceptually and thematically, either option works.

If you want to customize heavily, you can do so with the Succubus approach. It has the benefit of allowing you several class levels (and again, if the DM is mistakenly going off of CR, allow you to take those class levels via non-associated classes). You could, by choosing a non-associated class, manage to pull off all of what a Succubus has to offer plus a full 12 class levels (thus making it an obvious choice in preference over a regular Tiefling or the like).

The succubus is in the 'sweet spot' in terms of snagging lots of non-associatedclass levels, since you can get up to 6 levels in each non-associated class (up to 2). Each non-associated level only adds 1/2 CR, so long as the levels in EACH non-associated class do not exceed your original (6) HD.


On the other hand, if this kind of customizing is missing a key assumption, or just plain over the top, the Pleasure Devil doesn't look like a bad option. Some pretty strong SLAs there.

Finally, just to add another thought into the mix. If the succubus is on the table, then ask if the Lillitu is as well (FC 1...basically an "improved" succubus). It comes in directly at CR 12, and brings 9th level cleric casting along as part of the package deal.

[Gotterdammerung]

Talk to your DM, he/she gets the final call on what is and isn't associated class levels, unless you play an NPC class which are always treated as non associated. (adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, warrior)




That being said, I would play a succubus sorcerer or warmage. If the DM gives you non associated then you can get 10 lvls if not you can get 5 lvls. either way that should give you enough feats (assuming you can swap out pre-existing feats [which you should be able to do]).

Go to libris mortis, take fell drain, improved energy drain, and spell drain, Mindsight (flaw), Practised spellcaster (flaw, practiced spellcaster will work on monster hit dice).

If you get non associated class lvls take Life drain from libris mortis, I would throw in a bloodline feat from dragon compendium for spell selection, Mother cyst from libris mortis for spell selection and flavor, and then meta magic reducers for fell drain.


Have fun with it, basically as you drain levels away you get beefy. fell Drain Magic missile 5 different targets will give each of them 1 negative level with the added effect of losing 5+your charisma hit points instead of the normal 5. You gain any spells the targets lost due to the lost lvl. You gain the hp lost from the negative lvls as temp hit points, and you gain essentially +1 to d20 rolls per negative lvl (so +5 to hit, saves, skill, and ability checks if you get 5 targets drained off of one magic missile).

these benefits last for one hour and they work off of your kisses energy drain too. So it opens up options for kiss buffing on some hobos b4 an obvious skill challenge.

[Loki Eremes]

I think the first thing you need to do is find out exactly what your limits are CR12, ECL 12 or what. And make sure your DM and other players know what system they are using:

CR = Challenge rating, how tough something is for a party of adventurers to fight, shouldn't be used for creating characters at all, ever.

ECL= Effective Character level, your Hit dice plus any Level adjustment (LA) this is the level that your character is supposedly equivalent to.

Some examples:

Level 12 human fighter: 12 fighter hit dice, 0+ LA so equivalent to a 12th level character

Level 8 half-dragon human fighter: 8 fighter hit dice, +4 LA so equivalent to a 12th level character

Succubus: 6 outsider hit dice , +6 LA, equivalent to a 12th level character

Assassin Devil: 14 Hit Dice, +6 LA equivalent to a level 20 character.

Yup, sry bout that folks.
He meant Challenge Rating. Thats why he said to me "i dont think there will be many things that will oppose the party if acts united"




One possibility would be to use a homebrewed Succubus class. This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11817991&postcount=118) works very well with Bard, especially the prestige class version. I would suggest having 5 levels of bard and all 7 levels of the prestige class version.

Looks interesting, but he doesnt want anything outside of the list he gave us.
but thanks for the contribution pal. :smallbiggrin:




Talk to your DM, he/she gets the final call on what is and isn't associated class levels, unless you play an NPC class which are always treated as non associated. (adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, warrior)




That being said, I would play a succubus sorcerer or warmage. If the DM gives you non associated then you can get 10 lvls if not you can get 5 lvls. either way that should give you enough feats (assuming you can swap out pre-existing feats [which you should be able to do]).

Go to libris mortis, take fell drain, improved energy drain, and spell drain, Mindsight (flaw), Practised spellcaster (flaw, practiced spellcaster will work on monster hit dice).

If you get non associated class lvls take Life drain from libris mortis, I would throw in a bloodline feat from dragon compendium for spell selection, Mother cyst from libris mortis for spell selection and flavor, and then meta magic reducers for fell drain.


Have fun with it, basically as you drain levels away you get beefy. fell Drain Magic missile 5 different targets will give each of them 1 negative level with the added effect of losing 5+your charisma hit points instead of the normal 5. You gain any spells the targets lost due to the lost lvl. You gain the hp lost from the negative lvls as temp hit points, and you gain essentially +1 to d20 rolls per negative lvl (so +5 to hit, saves, skill, and ability checks if you get 5 targets drained off of one magic missile).

these benefits last for one hour and they work off of your kisses energy drain too. So it opens up options for kiss buffing on some hobos b4 an obvious skill challenge.


When first tought of the succubus, i remembered Libris Mortis monstrous feats...but dude, never tought of doing this sweet sweet combination.

but got a problem: "FELL DRAIN"? i cant find it...could you have meant "LIFE DRAIN"?

[The Random NPC]

Fell Drain: Libris Mortis Page 27 metamagic feat.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would suggest a succubus dread necromancer 5 / favored soul 5. Take the fell drain build from above, but now you mix in command undead. You make wights for free with level drains, now command them. Use the massive bonuses to d20 rolls to hide yourself and turn wights loose in the city by hiding level drained bodies in the sewers. This will provide the hell for the population.

This will get the paladins worried and get them to send troops into the sewers to try to fight the cause of the repeating mini wightagedon. Keep your level drain bonus to saves high to avoid divination, and to maintain a constant mundane disguise at a high level. Let them find nothing, only to repeat in the docks or other areas with high populations and paces to stash a body. Kill a whole orphanage and cause a massive outbreak.

Then while that is happening start your own church. Let it be whispered that there is a deal that can be made that will save you from the wights. All it takes is a promise that won't be collected for a long time.

[Loki Eremes]

*
Hey, im considering all the progressions all of you suggested....
but let me ask: What about Hexblade???
what do you think of it for this?




Fell Drain: Libris Mortis Page 27 metamagic feat.

Thanks dude....im frigging blind....
well that and because i didnt expect a metamagic feat :smallredface:

[Gotterdammerung]

I would suggest a succubus dread necromancer 5 / favored soul 5. Take the fell drain build from above, but now you mix in command undead.

The main problem I see with this would be splitting up your caster level. better IMO to pick a pony.


*
Hey, im considering all the progressions all of you suggested....
but let me ask: What about Hexblade???
what do you think of it for this?

Hexblade wouldn't work well with my suggestions. It lacks the spell power to support fell drain.

Duskblade from the PH2 could be a compromise. BUT sorcerer or warmage just work much better and much easier for my fell drain suggestions.

[Loki Eremes]

The main problem I see with this would be splitting up your caster level. better IMO to pick a pony.



Hexblade wouldn't work well with my suggestions. It lacks the spell power to support fell drain.

Duskblade from the PH2 could be a compromise. BUT sorcerer or warmage just work much better and much easier for my fell drain suggestions.


Oh no, i suggested it as an another option.
Your progression is great, i mean...multiple long ditance Energy Drain? Awesomesauce.

But Im considering all the things avalible :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

Also consider fiend of possession (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10938). Great for an infiltration game. It lets you dump all stats but cha and int, and you can just fit all of it in before CR12.

I would still go for the energy drain feats to improve your energy drain abilities as FOP doesn't have a feat tax, and you can posses a melee weapon and apply your drain through your attack. Get a rivintine weapon so you can't be sundered and you are immune to anything short of Disintegrate. Running around as a X bane (you can pick and choose based on what you are fighting today) level draining sword is awesome.

[Arbane]

To go against the tide here, it's pretty likely that the rest of the team are going to be kill-crazy combat monsters (what are the other players planning on, anyway? Well-rounded parties aren't just for the good guys), so why not max out your social-fu and play a bard? (Also, it gets you the Undetectable Alignment spell. Very useful in a town full of Smite-Evil-happy Paladins. Yes, you'll want a ring of undetectable alignment anyway, but pop this on top as extra safety.) Between teleporting, shapeshifting, mind-reading, and a sky-high Bluff score, you'll have plenty of options besides "seduce, then kill".

[Loki Eremes]

FIRST OF ALL: IM SORRY IF THIS REPRESENTS THREAD NECRO'.
Short explanation: I've got hospitalized for 12 days... (no joke)
but i considered opening a new thread with the same goals would be redundant to the forum.

If it is really necro', just...dont know, close it. If not...great!
:smallsmile:



To go against the tide here, it's pretty likely that the rest of the team are going to be kill-crazy combat monsters (what are the other players planning on, anyway? Well-rounded parties aren't just for the good guys), so why not max out your social-fu and play a bard? (Also, it gets you the Undetectable Alignment spell. Very useful in a town full of Smite-Evil-happy Paladins. Yes, you'll want a ring of undetectable alignment anyway, but pop this on top as extra safety.) Between teleporting, shapeshifting, mind-reading, and a sky-high Bluff score, you'll have plenty of options besides "seduce, then kill".



We are 3.
One player is an Imp with rogue and assassin level....small and lethal....
The other one havent decided yet.... most probably wizard full caster harvester devil.

Bard was my first thought, and I know how good they can be... but... it feels somehow out of place if you dont want to stand up too much.
Also things like Fascinate and Suggestion come incorporated in the Succubus, so if i wanted spell, Sorcerer would be a better choice I think.

After all this days, i decided to be a Hexblade, with its respective fixes (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com.ar/2011/08/hexblades-handbook.html)

But well.....that Guide doesnt help much... and the Hexblade is a great debuffer but its hard as **** to find things to mix it with

im just confused. I find it to be a relatively good character class but it so...isolated.... (or at least it feels that way because i dont know stuff you do!)



So now the question is:
What do you know about Hexblade progressions?
Any ideas about feats, Magic items, familiars, spells, etc will work for this people.....

[Douglas]

It's not necromancy until 6 weeks, so no worries on that score.

[Loki Eremes]

Not a thing 'bout Hexblades??? :smallfrown:

[limejuicepowder]

Well one thing hexblades do well is familiar. Strong base attack and good hit points means a combat-worthy familiar. I would recommend taking the dark companion ACF (cause it's really good) then getting a familiar with feats. Augment familiar is also on the hexblade's spell list, which is a decent buff.

Now I'm not sure what would be suitable but if you got a familiar with a strong save-or-suck type of ability, it would pair very well with a hexblade's debuffing. Dipping paladin of tyranny is also advised, though it might not fit fluff-wise.

[Randomguy]

A hexblade with a Paladin of Tyranny and Blackguard dip would do pretty well. Your saving throws would be through the roof (2*cha to saves, 3*cha to saves vs. spells). I think there's also a paladin ACF somewhere that puts Cha to AC instead of to saves, so you should consider that, since your saves would already be pretty high.

I'd say take three levels Blackguard at most. If your DM rules that the two aura of despair don't stack, then it's better to just take 2 levels, unless you want the extra rebuke attempts for something. 4 levels of paladin of tyranny, as well, but only 3 if you don't want the rebuke attempts.

If you end up with a bunch of turn attempts from those two dips, then you can use them to power Law Devotion or Divine Might. If you don't have enough room in your build for either of these feats, don't bother getting any turn attempts.

If your wisdom isn't too great, then consider taking a spelless paladin variant (from complete warrior or complete champion, probably the latter) to swap paladin casting for something more useful.

Play a devil race with some decent save or dies, preferably at will. Your familiar should be able to force saving throws, too. Of course, you should get the familiar via Obtain Familiar, so that you can still have your dark companion.

For your familiar, see if you can get a Shadow Dragon familiar via the Dragon familiar feat, for some more debuffing.

Pick up a weapon enchantment that forces saving throws. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, though.

[Loki Eremes]

A hexblade with a Paladin of Tyranny and Blackguard dip would do pretty well. Your saving throws would be through the roof (2*cha to saves, 3*cha to saves vs. spells). I think there's also a paladin ACF somewhere that puts Cha to AC instead of to saves, so you should consider that, since your saves would already be pretty high.

I'd say take three levels Blackguard at most. If your DM rules that the two aura of despair don't stack, then it's better to just take 2 levels, unless you want the extra rebuke attempts for something. 4 levels of paladin of tyranny, as well, but only 3 if you don't want the rebuke attempts.

If you end up with a bunch of turn attempts from those two dips, then you can use them to power Law Devotion or Divine Might. If you don't have enough room in your build for either of these feats, don't bother getting any turn attempts.

If your wisdom isn't too great, then consider taking a spelless paladin variant (from complete warrior or complete champion, probably the latter) to swap paladin casting for something more useful.

Play a devil race with some decent save or dies, preferably at will. Your familiar should be able to force saving throws, too. Of course, you should get the familiar via Obtain Familiar, so that you can still have your dark companion.

For your familiar, see if you can get a Shadow Dragon familiar via the Dragon familiar feat, for some more debuffing.

Pick up a weapon enchantment that forces saving throws. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, though.


Blackguard and paladin of Tyranny are great choices, but they screw up a lot my already weak spellcasting progression

any idea of a PrC that continues arcane spellcasting and gives something to the Hexblade thing? (2 or 3 lvls)

Dark Companion, CHECKED
Shadow Dragon Familiar ??? where is it?

[The Random NPC]

Blackguard and paladin of Tyranny are great choices, but they screw up a lot my already weak spellcasting progression

any idea of a PrC that continues arcane spellcasting and gives something to the Hexblade thing? (2 or 3 lvls)

Dark Companion, CHECKED
Shadow Dragon Familiar ??? where is it?

Dragon Familiar: Feat: Draconomicon page 104
Shadow Dragon: Monster: Draconnomicon page 191

[Randomguy]

Paladin and blackguard do mess up your spellcasting, but really I think hexblade spellcasting is so bad that it's not worth caring too much about, especially if you get some good spell like abilities. The real thing that it gives you is debuffs, and the spells are really a way to actually force some saving throws, but if you've already got a bunch of save or dies, then it isn't really worth caring too much about.

As for PrC's that advance casting and add something as well: There's abjurant champion (Complete Mage), which boosts your caster level to your BAB (so it would probably more than double it) but it doesn't add any debuffing or save or dies, and you probably don't have that many abjurations anyway.

Another neat PrC is Dread Witch (heroes of horror), which focuses on fear affects. Normally this would be perfect since hexblades already have debuffs and a few fear effects, but you only get d4 hit dice and poor BAB. Oh, and Hexblades don't get Scare on their class list, and you need Scare to qualify.

There's acolyte of the skin, from complete arcane, but you're already a fiend, so it doesn't make much sense, plus it's only half casting, which really sucks, but there's a bit of synergy in the abilities. Straight hexblade would probably be better.

Well, the absolute best prestige class for hexblade would be Urpriest, but that doesn't fit the theme that well. Also, you'd be a little MAD.

On Dragon familiar: I just checked it again, and your alignment needs to be within a step of the dragon's alignment. Of the dragons listed, you only qualify for blue and green dragons, and neither has a saving throw breath weapon (and shadow dragon is CE, so you wouldn't qualify for that, either, even if the DM allowed it). Your alignment is the same as the Pyroclastic Dragon's, though (also from Draconomicon), and that has a disintegrating breath weapon, so ask your DM if you can take one of those via Dragon Familiar. As a side bonus, it's basically a red dragon from hell, which fits perfectly with the theme. What other type of dragon would a devil have?