[3.5] Stirge's Attach ability

[McQ]

It seems these Stirges are only good for sucking Constitution from players, and generally only in a group (being that they have such low attack abilities) However I ran into some conflicting interpretations of the Attach ability they use as a Melee Attack, mixed with their ability to Grapple.

"A Stirge attacks by landing on a victim, finding a vulnerable spot, and plunging its proboscis into the flesh. This is a touch attack and can target only Small or larger creatures."

Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent's body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above)
An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-11 (+1 when attached)

As of now, this is my method for initiating the attack and grapple to begin draining constitution.

Attack: Touch +7 melee (attach)
Then opposing Grapple checks; Stirge having +1 to Grapple
Continue Grapple checks each round; beginning of round dealing Constitution damage
PC can break grapple, and must choose to Pin to detach Stirge


Do I need to do the initial Grapple check? Or would a successful "Attach" attack put the opponent into a successful Grapple?

Also, with only a +1 Grapple, it seems a single Stirge against a single opponent would have little success draining Con. Would you suggest using several at once?

[Cespenar]

Do I need to do the initial Grapple check? Or would a successful "Attach" attack put the opponent into a successful Grapple?

Also, with only a +1 Grapple, it seems a single Stirge against a single opponent would have little success draining Con. Would you suggest using several at once?

The wording suggests that an initial Grapple check is not required.

Also, the multiple Stirges thing depends more on the party level, but also keep in mind that:

a) It deals Con damage, which is not an easy thing to remedy in lower levels, and,
b) Most non-Str builds won't have very good Grapple checks as well. So, a +1 may not fare as bad as you'd think. Not to mention that trying to outgrapple that measly CR 1/2 creature effectively robs you of that round.

[McQ]

Is it possible to get a consensus on this? I appreciate your response, though a few more Yay or Nays would give me more confidence in either answer.

[Diarmuid]

The wording on Attach is pretty clear on the mechanics of the Stirge attacks.


Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent's body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above)
An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

"If it hits with a touch attach....latch onto opp's body."

Touch attack = Attach

"An attached stirge is effectively grapping it's prey"

Attached = Grappling

Following normal math equivalency rules = Successful Touch Attack = Grappling

[Psyren]

Do I need to do the initial Grapple check? Or would a successful "Attach" attack put the opponent into a successful Grapple?

As others have said, you don't need a grapple check initially. The grapple stats are given so you know what happens when the PC tries to yank it off.



Also, with only a +1 Grapple, it seems a single Stirge against a single opponent would have little success draining Con. Would you suggest using several at once?

Obviously that depends on the opponent, as a frail wizard with no spells left (pretty easy at level 1) could end up in a lot of trouble. But the CR implies that you're supposed to be sending them in multiples, yes.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Can't remember where I read it, but there was a DM that used stirges in a great way. He let the stirges follow the PC:s as they entered a swamp/forest, but not do anything, just follow them, flutter from branch to branch, watching and waiting. Then, when the PC:s entered combat and blood was spilled the stirges attacked, IIRC both friend and foe, attaching onto anyone that got injured.

With the fight over, the stirges continued to follow the PC:s, harrassing them through the night, forcing them to stay awake. I feel it's a great use of a low CR monster with a fearsome attack.

[candycorn]

They're correct. No grapple check is needed initially. In fact, the stirge really needs no new checks to do its thing. All it needs to do is not get pinned.

So, let's say you've got a party of level 3 characters, and you want a CR +1 encounter. That's 8 of these things.

Say 6 of them hit their touch attacks, leaving everyone grappled, (2 PC's grappled by 2).

Round 1: Barbarian grapples one for damage, and kills it, freeing himself. Rogue pins one, removes it, and is still grappled. Cleric pins one, removes it, and is still grappled. Wizard fails to pin one.

Stirges: Barbarian gets re-attached, by the 2 remaining stirges. Rogue is pinned by a stirge. Stirge fails to pin cleric. Cleric, Rogue, Wizard all lose 1d4 Con.

Round 2: Barbarian grapples another for damage, killing it, but is still grappled. Rogue releases pin on one, and breaks the stirge's pin. Cleric releases pin on one, and pins the other, removing it. Wizard pins his stirge, removing it.

Stirges: two free stirges attach to the cleric and wizard. Barbarian, Cleric each take 1d4 Con damage.

Round 3: Barbarian grapples another for damage, killing it. Rogue pins the stirge on him, removing it. Cleric releases pin, and attempts to pin the other, but fails. Wizard releases pin, and fails to pin the other.

Stirges: 2 free stirges attach to the barbarian. Wizard is pinned by a stirge. Stirge fails to pin cleric. Cleric and wizard take 1d4 con.

Round 4: Barbarian drops another stirge, but is still grappled. Rogue, now free, sneak attacks the stirge on the wizard. Cleric pins a stirge on him, removing it. Wizard, now free, magic missiles the stirge on the barbarian and the stirge on the cleric.

Mop up from here, last pinned stirges are killed. Total party harm:

Barbarian: 1d4 Con (average 2.5)
Cleric: 3d4 Con (average 7.5)
Rogue: 1d4 Con (average 2.5)
Wizard: 2d4 Con (average 5)

Now, this is not the only way it can go, but it is a realistic interpretation of how things could go if the stirges swooped in at night. Assuming the barbarian and Cleric have a 14 Con, and the wizard and rogue have a 12 Con, that's a serious chunk out of the party's fighting ability, assuming they split up. If only one person was standing watch, say, the rogue...

Well, the rogue would likely live just long enough to yell and wake everyone up. Then the fight would be much harder. If the barbarian was the awake one? Even worse. Assuming he removes one, that's still 5d4-7d4 con damage in one round. They can be lethal to a party at night, and their darkvision means they're likely to be nocturnal pack predators.

[Kol Korran]

Can't remember where I read it, but there was a DM that used stirges in a great way. He let the stirges follow the PC:s as they entered a swamp/forest, but not do anything, just follow them, flutter from branch to branch, watching and waiting. Then, when the PC:s entered combat and blood was spilled the stirges attacked, IIRC both friend and foe, attaching onto anyone that got injured.

With the fight over, the stirges continued to follow the PC:s, harrassing them through the night, forcing them to stay awake. I feel it's a great use of a low CR monster with a fearsome attack.

that sounds eerily familiar of my Stirge post in my "neglected monster manual" link. OP- i don't usually boast my own links, but this time it might be useful, look at my sig for themonster manual, and look for the stirge (the first monster there i think). hope you find it useful. i love these critters, rarely used them enough.

[enderlord99]

Speaking of stirges, I'd like help making a pc that uses one as a race (for teh lulz). Obviously he'd have abysmal intelligence (at least at first), so even as a rogue (which I want him to be) he wouldn't have very many skills. However, I still think it's an awesome concept.

When it comes to the rogue special abilities, I want opportunist and crippling strike (the latter re-fluffed to have to do with the blood draining).

Beyond that, I'm kind of stumped.

[DeusMortuusEst]

that sounds eerily familiar of my Stirge post in my "neglected monster manual" link. OP- i don't usually boast my own links, but this time it might be useful, look at my sig for themonster manual, and look for the stirge (the first monster there i think). hope you find it useful. i love these critters, rarely used them enough.

Yup that's the one (bookmarked now), thanks for the link. Ever since I read that link I've loved using the stirges as wilderness encounters. :smallbiggrin: The last group I DM:d still tell stories about the critters...

[Downysole]

They're correct. No grapple check is needed initially. In fact, the stirge really needs no new checks to do its thing. All it needs to do is not get pinned.

So, let's say you've got a party of level 3 characters, and you want a CR +1 encounter. That's 8 of these things.

Say 6 of them hit their touch attacks, leaving everyone grappled, (2 PC's grappled by 2).

Round 1: Barbarian grapples one for damage, and kills it, freeing himself. Rogue pins one, removes it, and is still grappled. Cleric pins one, removes it, and is still grappled. Wizard fails to pin one.

Stirges: Barbarian gets re-attached, by the 2 remaining stirges. Rogue is pinned by a stirge. Stirge fails to pin cleric. Cleric, Rogue, Wizard all lose 1d4 Con.

Round 2: Barbarian grapples another for damage, killing it, but is still grappled. Rogue releases pin on one, and breaks the stirge's pin. Cleric releases pin on one, and pins the other, removing it. Wizard pins his stirge, removing it.

Stirges: two free stirges attach to the cleric and wizard. Barbarian, Cleric each take 1d4 Con damage.

Round 3: Barbarian grapples another for damage, killing it. Rogue pins the stirge on him, removing it. Cleric releases pin, and attempts to pin the other, but fails. Wizard releases pin, and fails to pin the other.

Stirges: 2 free stirges attach to the barbarian. Wizard is pinned by a stirge. Stirge fails to pin cleric. Cleric and wizard take 1d4 con.

Round 4: Barbarian drops another stirge, but is still grappled. Rogue, now free, sneak attacks the stirge on the wizard. Cleric pins a stirge on him, removing it. Wizard, now free, magic missiles the stirge on the barbarian and the stirge on the cleric.

Mop up from here, last pinned stirges are killed. Total party harm:

Barbarian: 1d4 Con (average 2.5)
Cleric: 3d4 Con (average 7.5)
Rogue: 1d4 Con (average 2.5)
Wizard: 2d4 Con (average 5)

Now, this is not the only way it can go, but it is a realistic interpretation of how things could go if the stirges swooped in at night. Assuming the barbarian and Cleric have a 14 Con, and the wizard and rogue have a 12 Con, that's a serious chunk out of the party's fighting ability, assuming they split up. If only one person was standing watch, say, the rogue...

Well, the rogue would likely live just long enough to yell and wake everyone up. Then the fight would be much harder. If the barbarian was the awake one? Even worse. Assuming he removes one, that's still 5d4-7d4 con damage in one round. They can be lethal to a party at night, and their darkvision means they're likely to be nocturnal pack predators.

Actually, the barbarian would hulk out and get his party to get as close together as possible to take advantage of his cleave feat so he can attack the Stirges attached to his buddies while they have such low AC and only 5 hps a pop. Other characters would join in the "no, really, there's a bug on your face!" smash play and everyone comes out okay!

Really, your party may miss one or two from critical misses, but these things have pretty low AC (12) when they're attached.

Back to the OP, you only have to roll a grapple when you're being removed, not when you're attaching.

[jackattack]

I would base it on circumstance.

If the target is aware of the attack before it lands, the stirge has to roll to grapple. If the target is surprised (even in combat, stirge attacking from behind), the stirge can attach without rolling.

[Orran]

Actually, the barbarian would hulk out and get his party to get as close together as possible to take advantage of his cleave feat so he can attack the Stirges attached to his buddies while they have such low AC and only 5 hps a pop. Other characters would join in the "no, really, there's a bug on your face!" smash play and everyone comes out okay!

Really, your party may miss one or two from critical misses, but these things have pretty low AC (12) when they're attached.

Back to the OP, you only have to roll a grapple when you're being removed, not when you're attaching.

Not to mention that abrupt jaunt, anklets of translocation, the travel domain, being a warforged or even still spell are all fairly common level appropriate hard counters. Also, as tiny creatures, they provoke by entering your space.

Stirges are pretty cool as 'support' enemies, or an environmental hazard, but as an encounter I think the line between trivially easy and possible TPK is a little too thin.

[McQ]

Thanks everyone for the reply. I ran a session with successful Attach equaling a successful Grapple, and the Players fought them off with gusto.

I think using the Stirges to lower Fortitude Saves is excellent for a villain in a swamp with simple Drow Poison. I plan to use the poison's chance for knocking out the PCs as a nifty scene change.