Monster Races Qualifying at Game Start for PRCs [3.5]

[willpell]

Is there a list anywhere of races and Prestige Classes whereby the former can automatically qualify for the latter, based solely on their mandatory racial HD and built-in abilities? (Exclude the dragon-specific PRCs of Draconomicon, as I know about those; I'm thinking more along the lines of, say, a 5-HD wyrmling spending its racial feat on Endurance and its skill points on K:Geography, so it can take a Horizon Walker level as its first class level ever. Not a great idea, obviously, but there are some PRCs which might be worth it, especially for creatures with fewer advantages than dragons.)

Here's an example to get us going, although it's 3.0: The Cancer Mage from Book of Vile Darkness. You qualify with a base Fort save of +5, Skills no greater than 6 ranks, and three feats. Thusly, a Skullcrusher Ogre (MM3, eight levels of Giant and an LA +3) can start the game as a Cancer Mage (or, if played from 1st level with a savage progression, can take a level of Cancer Mage as its first actual class level). If the GM allows you to take a Flaw for an extra Feat, an Armand (MM3 again, five levels of MoHu) can do this even earlier.

Note that the objective is not necessarily to gain the PRC at a lower ECL than is possible for a human or other "typical" player race, although that's nice if it can be managed. Rather, the idea is to define the character from its inception by a PRC, without it ever having been anything other than its race and its PRC - every human Dragon Disciple has first been a human Sorcerer, but our armand Cancer Mage is entirely and exclusively an armand Cancer Mage, and that what I'm going for. (Not that I'm especially interested in an Armand, this was just the fastest option to dig up - pardon the pun.)

[Drelua]

I seem to remember reading something like this about the Naztharune Rakshasa in Monster Manual III, and how they often go straight into Assassin, although I can't find it now. :smallmad: . I doubt that you could really make a list of all the monsters that can do this though; it would just be too expansive, even if you used the stat-blocks as is, without changing any feats or skills.

[Psyren]

Indeed, this would be far too expansive to take on thanks to races whose RHD stack with other classes to determine benefits/requirements. Any Rakshasa for instance could qualify for nearly any Sorcerer PrC, Naityan Rakshasas can qualify for nearly anything a Swordsage can get into etc.

[Runestar]

THat list is going to be huge, unless you are thinking of monsters which just nicely qualify for a prc. Eg: A skullcrushor ogre can enter blackguard right away. :smalleek:

[willpell]

Let's overlook the higher-end creatures for now; there's not much point in getting into a 10-level PRC with a creature that starts at ECL 14 (unless you're going epic, and I'm nowhere near dealing with those rules yet). Think lizardmen, bugbears, on up to ogres and minotaurs and such - the more "classic" a creature is, the more interested I am in seeing it given a fresh spin with some slightly exotic PRC.

[Urpriest]

Let's overlook the higher-end creatures for now; there's not much point in getting into a 10-level PRC with a creature that starts at ECL 14 (unless you're going epic, and I'm nowhere near dealing with those rules yet). Think lizardmen, bugbears, on up to ogres and minotaurs and such - the more "classic" a creature is, the more interested I am in seeing it given a fresh spin with some slightly exotic PRC.

It's still a huge, huge list. Pretty much any melee PrC can be entered by monsters with 5+ RHD, while anything with casting can be entered by any monster with appropriate casting. Skills are harder, generally you'll need outsiders if it's a very skill-focused PrC.

[willpell]

Perhaps it would be easiest if we went by one monster or one class at a time. Let's start with the Cancer Mage since I already brought him up, and for a monster we'll go with Minotaur since I'm interested in using them (I already have a Doppelganger which is the other big one that was on my mind in that ECL range).

* What PRCs can a Minotaur qualify for right out the gate?

* What monster should I be if I want to start the game as a Cancer Mage?

[GenghisDon]

Let's overlook the higher-end creatures for now; there's not much point in getting into a 10-level PRC with a creature that starts at ECL 14

From my perspective there is, and ECL matters not at all. I'm interested in encounters.

Still, I get your desire. Minotaur probably has quite a few options. Centaur as well. Satyr.

[Urpriest]

Cancer Mage requires Fort +5. A monsters sans class levels is by its very nature not multiclassed, so earliest entry would be 6HD, conveniently enough high enough to get the requisite feats without bonus feats. The creature would have to have good Fort to qualify that early (otherwise we're aiming at 15RHD, probably outside your goals), so that leaves us with Dragon, Earth or Water Elemental, Giant, potentially some Humanoids, Magical Beast, Outsider, Plant, or (if you can find a non-mindless one) Vermin. To qualify before level 9 you need Hide and Move Silently as class skills.

Probably still lots of things that work for that, though. Hound Archon is the first I came across. Edit: 6HD Wyrmling Black Dragon is a better choice.

This was actually fun. Throw me another!

[Sgt. Cookie]

Hmm. Shadow Dancer.

No real reason, just the first one I thought of.

[willpell]

Probably still lots of things that work for that, though. Hound Archon is the first I came across. Edit: 6HD Wyrmling Black Dragon is a better choice.

Hound Archons are Always Lawful Good, and Cancer Mage requires Any Evil, so that'd be impossible save by special fiat (though certainly a fallen Hound turning into a Bad Dog who carries disease is rather fitting).

Black Dragon, however, is perfect, since I see them as creatures of rot and horror by nature.


This was actually fun. Throw me another!

Cookie pitched a new PRC already, and I'm still waiting on my Minotaur, but I'll throw out another one - a Green Hag.

[Venusaur]

Just looking through CW, a minotaur can get into Ronin, Purple Dragon knight, master thrower, order of the bow initiate, hulking hurler, and really an of the classes that don't take spellcasting, rage, monk features, or more than three feats. You may need high Int for skillpoints though.

[willpell]

Aha! Found a good PRC for creating interesting monster characters: the Incarnum Blade. Easily one of the lowest-entry-bar PRCs in the books; literally all you need is +5 BAB, 2 ranks of Concentration (even a Fighter with an intelligence penalty can manage that), and not being True Neutral (and I'm inclined to waive that last bit personally). Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Outsiders and Dragons all have BAB equal to their HD, so I'm certain I can find one of these with minimal LA and five RHD, whose first class level ever gets to be the Incarnum Blade (which, from the looks of it, more or less is what the Soulborn always should have been - no actual meldshaping, but some interesting weapon-upgrading abilities based on chakra binds). There might be easier classes to qualify for, but this is one that does something fairly unique and seems like it'll make for a fun experiment.

EDIT - Unfortunately, finding an ideal monster to become that Incarnum Blade proved less easy. Ideally it would have exactly 5 HD, one of the appropriate types, and as small an LA as possible; so far the best I found was a Satyr, which is still +2 LA, and just doesn't really feel like a good fit. An infuriating number of creatures are listed with 4 HD; I suppose I could just use an Advanced version of one, but this feels like cheating somehow, and guys with 6 HD are undesirable because I want the earliest possible entry.

[Urpriest]

Shadowdancer isn't especially tough. 7HD, Hide and Move Silently as class skills, Black, Green, or White Dragon of the appropriate HD works, though unfortunately the more thematic Shadow Dragon would not without a feat to gain the skills as class skills.

Minotaur was covered, so let's look at Green Hag:

Monstrous Humanoid means BAB +9, so easy to get into anything with a BAB prereq. We've also got four feats to choose, so even with a harder PrC we can probably spare a feat to buy class skills if necessary. Skills include Concentration, Craft, Knowledge, Hide, Listen, Spot, and Swim. 9HD and good Int means we can meet skill prereqs up to 6 in non-class skills. We've got some SLAs at CL 9 which probably won't matter.

Blackguard is the first option I came across that fits the bill.

As for Incarnum Blade, Satyr doesn't have the BAB you need. Any Dragon with low enough HD remains a fine option, but for a less lazy answer MM3's Armand will do it, though Minotaur would probably still be a better choice.

Edit: MMV's Spellscourged Hobgoblin will get you in a level earlier.

[Randomguy]

What about an aranea? (I think that's what the shapeshifting sorcerer spider from mm1 is called)

[Urpriest]

What about an aranea? (I think that's what the shapeshifting sorcerer spider from mm1 is called)

AFAIK, nothing. 3HD means you've pretty much only got Master Specialist and Church Inquisitor as options, and you qualify for neither.