grid or no grid, plus crafting locations

[Fitz10019]

I just found some neat videos of a guy who makes his own D&D locations out of cardboard and other cheap materials. link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfM2LNIIcao) (more in spoiler below)

If you checked out his stuff, you'd notice that it has no grid lines. He uses a stick painted to show inches to judge distances. He says that eliminating the grid helps immersion.

Seeing that made me challenge my assumption that everyone uses a grid with modern D&D. So, playgrounders, do you go grid or no grid?

This guy's YouTube channel isn't very organized, so I'm giving all the links individually. He usually only shows a technique once, so if you don't watch them in order, you may see him do something without showing how it was done (because he showed it in an earlier episode).

These episodes vary from 1, 2 or 3 parts, usually maxing at 15 minutes per part.

Ep 02 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ds6Lgc4Epk)
Ep 03 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3gdQrOTs6o)
Ep 04 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=oexgMCd-PYI)
Ep 05 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIwzfdFv9vU)
Ep 06 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWaWWiVvxRw)
Ep 07 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7OOjt46Q_Y)
Ep 08 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH1neIwGOuQ)
Ep 09 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFUtE-O08b8)
Ep 10 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o0LY_VGyEg)
Ep 11 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oa_ASt2iMg)
Ep 12 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gU58nYVD8M)
Ep 13 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5ikWwE7wCs)
Ep 14 [7 parts!] (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4f1Ek7kZGA)
Ep 15 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EGNXyLCJ5I)
Ep 16 [longer parts] (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkA2sn_wcpc)
Ep 17 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aWa8bk14Dk)
Ep 18 [recent, 29.07.2012] (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS7rPbe8Dmg)

His 'Short Tips' -- numbered differently for no apparent reason.
Ep 01 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=HefsGJMSIaE)
Ep 02 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYe5cokV5iY)
Ep 03 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjG-6L7hzLk)
Ep 04 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uj9R3Evxvs)
Ep 05 (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xs31u9zbDY)

[ThiagoMartell]

I use grids and specially like Dungeon Tiles. I started buying the D&D Adventure System games just for tiles and miniatures, even.

From my experience and observation, though, most regulars don't use grids. Also, I'll take a wild guess and say most 3.5 groups don't use grids. In fact, there are some 4e groups that don't use grids (don't ask me how, you'd have to ignore more than half the rulebooks to do so).

[Kasbark]

I use a grid. I mostly use a flip map from Paizo for most of my encounters. For very large encounters i use 4 or 5 A3papers taped together, also with a grid.


Having looked through a couple of his videos i would looove to play on those, without a grid, but it's simply way too much of a time requirement to make them for me. I already spend way too much time making props for my pathfinder games :)

[ThatKreacher]

My DM at first didn't want to but when I managed to get him to, everything was so much easier. I highly recommend using a grid. Combat is much more simple, and back when I was new, everything was complicated and the grid simplified it.

[CreganTur]

Using a grid just makes combat simpler. It provides very clear measurement of distance and relationship between objects that doesn't require any measuring devices or any interpretation.

My current DM passes out small printed maps of our locations (since he's using part of a published module) and then roughts out the important details on the dry-erase grid, which means a lot less drawing for him.

[jackattack]

Grid for indoor stuff, hex for outdoor stuff.

[Fitz10019]

Using a grid just makes combat simpler. It provides very clear measurement of distance and relationship between objects that doesn't require any measuring devices or any interpretation.

I like the idea of better immersion, but identifying threatened areas could be a chore.


Grid for indoor stuff, hex for outdoor stuff.

Wow! What are the pros and cons that lead to that distinction?

[jackattack]

Most dungeons are (or used to be) designed with straight lines and corners that simply work better with a grid.

Hex better represents the 360-degree environment above ground, without the distance discrepancy of side-by-side vs diagonal squares.

[limejuicepowder]

A more free-form "grid" would be to use mage knight or heroclix figures and a flexible ruler. The figures come complete with a dot in the middle to measure from, and dial contact is melee range. 1" = 5'

The only draw back I see to this is larger creatures and/or creatures with reach. For this you would probably have to get a little creative, but it would be doable.

[Big Fau]

I use grids and specially like Dungeon Tiles.

Fun fact: Masking tape doesn't damage the images on Dungeon Tiles, so you can set up a 3D dungeon if you have enough of them (and LEGOs help immensely with that).

[ThiagoMartell]

A more free-form "grid" would be to use mage knight or heroclix figures and a flexible ruler. The figures come complete with a dot in the middle to measure from, and dial contact is melee range. 1" = 5'

The only draw back I see to this is larger creatures and/or creatures with reach. For this you would probably have to get a little creative, but it would be doable.

Well, the scale on mageknight creatures is all wrong for D&D...

[Malimar]

Most dungeons are (or used to be) designed with straight lines and corners that simply work better with a grid.

Hex better represents the 360-degree environment above ground, without the distance discrepancy of side-by-side vs diagonal squares.

I have often considered switching to hex, and I keep deciding not to because a.) interior environments have straight walls and b.) there's no way (that I know of) to make a hex grid in Excel, the program I use for all my preparation. (Also, c.) I use the [code] tag to make roguelike maps on the forum, and you can't do roguelike hexes. But forum RP is only half of my D&D-playing.)

But I almost never prepare aboveground environments in Excel. So your policy intrigues me and I may acquire a hexmat and try it.



Well, the scale on mageknight creatures is all wrong for D&D...

They're only slightly larger. Mage Knight is approximately 30mm scale (though some are bigger and some are smaller), D&D is approximately 25-28mm (though some are bigger and some are smaller). The bigger "Medium" D&D creatures are bigger than the smaller Mage Knight figures. There's enough variance within each group that the difference between them is less important than one might think.

The problem is that the bases are way too big, but all you have to do is rebase them. Mage Knight minis come off their bases really easily, and properly-sized bases are not difficult to find. (Well, yeah they are; it took me years of searching to find a supplier I'm happy with. But since I'm here to just tell you about going to the Litko BaseMaker (http://www.litko.net/BMaker/) and buying 25mm black acrylic circles, it's not difficult for you to find.)

[some guy]

I usually use a grid, but sometimes I forget the grid. It's never a problem. I run mostly 3.5 and sometimes 4e.

[ThiagoMartell]

They're only slightly larger. Mage Knight is approximately 30mm scale (though some are bigger and some are smaller), D&D is approximately 25-28mm (though some are bigger and some are smaller). The bigger "Medium" D&D creatures are bigger than the smaller Mage Knight figures. There's enough variance within each group that the difference between them is less important than one might think.

I don't know, MageKnight centaurs are smaller than D&D centaurs, for example. I tried using them by switching bases, but so many inconsistencies popped up I just started using D&D Miniatures. Now I get to use the minis from the D&D Adventure System, so it's even cheaper than using MageKnight.

[Downysole]

When I started playing, we didn't use a grid and just sort of moshed everything together on the table between us. No minis or anything, just shared our imagination. We weren't optimized, and the DM had a gift for describing our surroundings.

When I started DMing, I tried that. I sucked. I then started drawing our combat areas right before the fight, but that sometimes took away from the game. Then I started drawing my combat areas beforehand, keeping about 3-5 maps ahead of the group. Everything is on old drawings from work that I flip over, draw a grid on, and fit the map to the grid. When I draw a map on the fly, I use a pre-painted mat with 30mm scale and dry erase markers, but I try to avoid it.

I think the next step in my evolution as a DM is to go to the 40k concept of movement where everything is done by tape measure, or pre-measured sticks. I just haven't gotten there yet.

Then again, I saw an advertizement on the site for designing your own shareable virtual environment and thought that was pretty slick. roll20, I think?

[ThiagoMartell]

When I started playing, we didn't use a grid and just sort of moshed everything together on the table between us. No minis or anything, just shared our imagination. We weren't optimized, and the DM had a gift for describing our surroundings.

That creates a completely different game. Both 3rd and 4th editions of D&D depend heavily on tactical positioning.
One of the reasosn people think chargers are the answer to everything is because they don't see how hard it is to actually setup a charge in most battlefields

[limejuicepowder]

I don't know, MageKnight centaurs are smaller than D&D centaurs, for example. I tried using them by switching bases, but so many inconsistencies popped up I just started using D&D Miniatures. Now I get to use the minis from the D&D Adventure System, so it's even cheaper than using MageKnight.

I don't quite understand why the size matters. If you took mage knight figures and tried to put them on a DnD grid, yes you would have a problem. But that's not what I said to do: either make your own appropriately sized grid (which I have), or use the flexible ruler that comes with the game (1" = 5', base contact = melee range for medium or small creatures).

I admitted it will be a little harder to show creatures of unusual size, but doable. Medium long figures can be easily shown with mounted figures; Large tall creatures should get a 2" diameter circle with a figure in the exact center of it. The circle would be space, and besides that it would be the same as a medium figure.

This has the advantage of not having a grid, so things like blast circles are very easy to portray. It's also more realistic, since actual curved movement is easy to do (not so on a grid, even a hex grid).

Edit: even flanking can be done smoothly. Hold a ruler going from one potential flanker's center dot to his ally. If the line crosses over the defender's dial, they get flanking bonuses.

[Downysole]

That creates a completely different game. Both 3rd and 4th editions of D&D depend heavily on tactical positioning.
One of the reasosn people think chargers are the answer to everything is because they don't see how hard it is to actually setup a charge in most battlefields

I would say that other editions focused even MORE on for tactical positioning due to having facing issues to contend with as well.

Nonetheless, the game I was referring to was a 3rd edition game...and by first started playing, I meant "first started playing with my current group."

[ThiagoMartell]

I would say that other editions focused even MORE on for tactical positioning due to having facing issues to contend with as well.

Nonetheless, the game I was referring to was a 3rd edition game...and by first started playing, I meant "first started playing with my current group."

Facing was optional in AD&D. In fact, most of the rules were optional in AD&D. Non-weapon proficiencies? Optional. Kits? Optional. Facing? Optional.
Funnily enough, weapon speed (the rule most often ignored in AD&D tables) was not optional. :smalltongue:

But I figured you meant 3rd edition, that's my point. Gridless 3rd edition is one game... 3rd edition with a grid is, well, 3rd edition.

[DrDeth]

Getting rid of the grid has nothing to do with immersion.

I used to play that way all the time back in 2nd Ed and before.

However, 3rd ED brought into play AoO and flanking, where you need a grid.

Now sure, we can get rid of AoO and flanking and such, but then we could also play 2nd Ed (which remains a great game).

[TheOOB]

The simple fact is, D&D, especially 3/3.5/4e is a grid based system, and any other system of measurement will require some house rules. I'd go so far as to say if you don't want a grid, then don't play D&D. There are literally hundreads of RPGs out there, it seems silly to play the grid based wargame rpg without the grid.

[DrDeth]

The simple fact is, D&D, especially 3/3.5/4e is a grid based system, and any other system of measurement will require some house rules. I'd go so far as to say if you don't want a grid, then don't play D&D. There are literally hundreads of RPGs out there, it seems silly to play the grid based wargame rpg without the grid.

Not quite- if you don't want a grid, then don't play D&D- of 3.0 or later editions. 2nd Ed is just fine, no grid is needed. (It can be useful once in a while, but we rarely used one).

[Fitz10019]

I keep thinking of the Cone of Cold, where a cone overlay would very clearly indicate which squares are affected and which are not, and it is already clear which squares each creature occupies. In a gridless system, I guess you'd just use a straight-sided triangle, and the effect would be a judgment call on a creature-by-creature basis.
The guy from the videos says he makes the call as DM.

[Wonton]

A grid does make things simpler most of the time, although I agree that sometimes it's inconvenient. The worst offenders are charges and line attacks that don't take place in one of the 8 cardinal directions. Also, outdoor environments don't usually fit that well on a grid.

[willpell]

Hex better represents the 360-degree environment above ground, without the distance discrepancy of side-by-side vs diagonal squares.

But you do have a discrepancy beween faces and angles of the hexes. If you orient every figure to face toward a hexside, it's impossible for that character to move one space straight left; if you face him toward a corner, he can't move one space ahead. Plus there are issues such as the Giant pointed out, where only 6 attackers can engage in melee on one target instead of the normal 8. How do you deal with these issues?

[The Boz]

The hex grid is meant for other games and strategic overland movement.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm thinking about buying the Dungeon Command games. Their maps are compatible with the tiles from the Adventure System and they are double sided. Also, the monsters come with stats for the Adventure System. Also, the miniatures are prepainted.
I was a bit skeptical at first, but looks like a solid buy. The only downsid is that I don't think they'll be releasing new Adventure System games ever again, which is a shame. I really wanted a crossover scenario for Legend of Drizzt or something like that.

[navar100]

DMing a new Pathfinder campaign for the last few weeks, I've only used a grid once. It was late in the evening, and I was a bit tired. Having the grid required less thinking on my part for the combat.

Doing combat without the grid, while requiring me to keep track of what's going on a bit more, helped to speed up the combat as it was possible with the large group (6-9 players) at the table. PC movement needn't had been so exact. It was enough to say "you need this round to get to the combat area" or the player says he moves then attacks. Flanking was still possible as appropriate and AoOs did happen.

For the particular adventure in a tower only a doorway was any obstruction. Next adventure I know I'll need a grid because placement in a small logging camp will be important.

Grids are helpful because you can obviously see where everything and everyone is. Terrain can be important enough to make the combat interesting. Exacting detail of placement and distance in combat is not a detriment. The tactical play of combat is part of the fun. However, I find there is also fun in just winging it. The players can do what they want for the most part. Just being "over there" is enough information to know whether you can or cannot do something, be or not be affected by something.

Still, I suspect I'll be using the grid more often. Trying to keep track of the bad guys' positions relative to the players' can be complicated.