Pathfinder Tier System and other issues.

[Man on Fire]

So, I consider DMing Pathfinder to some of my friends. I have few things to consider and want to hear your opinion about.

First of all - if you would apply tier system to Pathfinder, what would change? Where new classes would go? I heard that Alchemist can do a lot of things so he may be tier 1 o2 and Paladin could have moved one tier up when compared to 3.5. I want to know what I'm dealing with if I'm going to get various classes.

I'm also considering making this game to be more 3.P, with adapting various 3.5 classes, like ToB guys, Dread Necromancer or Dragonfire Adept and PrCs to Pathfinder system. Is there anything I should know before attempting this?

Also, what are typical PF issues with combat that needs fixing?

[jaybird]

With thanks to Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136890).

ToB may have a little difficulty, as their core skills (Diamond Mind/Concentration, Stone Dragon/Balance) have been rolled into other skills now. Just pick other skills, Sense Motive for Diamond Mind, for example. Otherwise they'll fit in fine, somewhere just above the Paladin and just below the half-casters (Magus, Inquisitor, Summoner) in terms of power.

[Kasbark]

While i can't say anything about 3.5 splatbook resources in pathfinder, i can say a bit about my observations on class power in the core book.

Generally, the pathfinder classes are a bit more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts, bu having a few more class abilities and getting more feats (although everyone suffers a lot in power if you used all splat-book material in 3.5 and won't use them in pathfinder, simply because there is a lot less optimization possible with less resources)


On a more specific level, the Paladin, Ranger and the Monk both become quite a bit better in Pathfinder, so i guess they go up a tier.

The druid is nerfed quite a bit in pathfinder (it's still a good class, but it's not number 1 anymore), mostly because all kinds of shapeshifting is nerfed heavily in Pathfinder.
The barbarian suffers a bit in comparison to the fighter and other melee classes, but not enough to drop down a tier i would think. I'd be hard pressed to find a reason to have more than one level in barb, for anything besides RP reasons.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just pick other skills, Sense Motive for Diamond Mind, for example.

Diamond Mind should really be based off Perception.

And Kasbark, a lot of those points are inaccurate, but in the right vein. Monk did get stronger, but it's not enough to move up a tier without certain Archetypes. I believe ranger is the same. Classes are barely stronger overall, if at all (except for sorcerer, and especially human sorcerer with the ARF favored class ability). Druid is still solid tier 1, and still the best class at low-levels (it lost out to wizard at higher levels in 3.5 too).

[ThiagoMartell]

With good archetype selection, Monk goes up to tier 3.

Don't think Perception should be used for Diamond Mind, since it's already such a good skill on itself.

[Hiro Protagonest]

With good archetype selection, Monk goes up to tier 3.
And by that you mean, one build that uses two archetypes. Still doesn't make him tier 3.

Don't think Perception should be used for Diamond Mind, since it's already such a good skill on itself.

Concentration was based off Con. AKA, one of two abilities that you're boosting to high heaven because of the benefits. I don't think it's too powerful.

[The-Mage-King]

Diamond Mind should really be based off Perception.


No. Diamond Mind should be based on Autohypnosis. :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

First of all - ...Where new classes would go?

Since no one has addressed this yet...

*NOTE: These are my rough guesses, but they should be accurate +/- 1 level*

Witch is Tier 1, casting is almost identical to Wizard, decent variety of Hexes.

Oracle is Tier 2, Spontaneous 9th level spells (a significant improvement upon the Favored Soul, but still a Spontaneous caster).

Summoner is harder to peg, while it "only" has 6th level spells, many of them are 'discounted' 1 or 2 levels (most 6th level Summoner spells are 8th level on the Wiz/Sorc list). So it has (almost) Full caster power, but only 'Bard' caster slots. And the Eidolon has a LOT of beatstick potential. Let's just say Tier 2.5.

Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus are in the Tier 3 area. They all max out at 6th level spells, similar to Bard, and all have decent combat/skills utility.

Gunslingers and Cavaliers are basically mega-archetype Fighters, so Tier 4 or 5 depending on where you rank the PF Fighter.

Antipaladin > See Paladin
Ninja > See Rogue
Samurai > See Cavalier

[ThiagoMartell]

No. Diamond Mind should be based on Autohypnosis. :smalltongue:

I think it should indeed.

[jaybird]

No. Diamond Mind should be based on Autohypnosis. :smalltongue:

Hard to say - the fluff of the save replacement manoeuvres suits Autohypnosis well, but the Nightmare Blade line is more Perception or Sense Motive.

[deuxhero]

As for 3.5 class in PF, a handful may get enough power depending on how the conversion is done. For example, I've seen people say Warlock could reach tier 3 if it just got more invocations. If they got the option to grab a new one under the maximum level they can cast as a favored class option like human spontaneous casters do, it should bridge that gap.

Actually I can't think of any beyond Warlock and Dragon Shaman, but meh.

Prestige Class tiers have a LOT of potential to change if converted directly (reduce skill rank requirements by 3), as a few are held back quite a bit by skill requires that make them pesky to enter. That's an entirely separate tier system though.

The updated prestige classes are pretty much all straight better in a vaccum (except Assassin, which got nothing for loss of spell casting), though Loremaster is less appealing when you get class features.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Since no one has addressed this yet...

*NOTE: These are my rough guesses, but they should be accurate +/- 1 level*

Witch is Tier 1, casting is almost identical to Wizard, decent variety of Hexes.

Oracle is Tier 2, Spontaneous 9th level spells (a significant improvement upon the Favored Soul, but still a Spontaneous caster).

Summoner is harder to peg, while it "only" has 6th level spells, many of them are 'discounted' 1 or 2 levels (most 6th level Summoner spells are 8th level on the Wiz/Sorc list). So it has (almost) Full caster power, but only 'Bard' caster slots. And the Eidolon has a LOT of beatstick potential. Let's just say Tier 2.5.

Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus are in the Tier 3 area. They all max out at 6th level spells, similar to Bard, and all have decent combat/skills utility.

Gunslingers and Cavaliers are basically mega-archetype Fighters, so Tier 4 or 5 depending on where you rank the PF Fighter.

Antipaladin > See Paladin
Ninja > See Rogue
Samurai > See Cavalier

a big +1...

Spot on for new classes.

Though I would say both Samurai and Ninja are more powerful than their otherwise archetype-less base classes, i wouldn't say they are powerful enough to move up a tier. And yes, there are some archetypes here and there that could potentially move a class up a tier. Maybe.

[deuxhero]

Ninja is a big yes (you can set up your own sneak attack!), but Samurai is... questionable. You lose the main way to make Cavalier do anything of worth (Horse Master) and get some fairly underwhelming stuff in return.

[The Redwolf]

Ninja is a big yes (you can set up your own sneak attack!), but Samurai is... questionable. You lose the main way to make Cavalier do anything of worth (Horse Master) and get some fairly underwhelming stuff in return.

I personally think the Sword Saint archetype for samurai makes them pretty nice.

[Peat]

The barbarian suffers a bit in comparison to the fighter and other melee classes, but not enough to drop down a tier i would think. I'd be hard pressed to find a reason to have more than one level in barb, for anything besides RP reasons.

Some of the higher level Rage Powers are pretty damn sweet and, by and large, very difficult/impossible to duplicate without magic for a fighter. I can't think of anything else giving Pounce, Barbarians can grow their own Wings, and Come and Get Me is awesome. Not to refute the general meat of what you say, but there are some solid reasons to look at a prolonged career as a Barbarian.

[Man on Fire]

Some of the higher level Rage Powers are pretty damn sweet and, by and large, very difficult/impossible to duplicate without magic for a fighter. I can't think of anything else giving Pounce, Barbarians can grow their own Wings, and Come and Get Me is awesome. Not to refute the general meat of what you say, but there are some solid reasons to look at a prolonged career as a Barbarian.

I think that PF Barbarian is still Tier 4, but from different angle now. 3.5 Barbarian is example of Tier 4 as class who can do one thing very, very well, namely fight. PF Barbarian seems to be example of Tier 4 class who can do many things on okay level, thanks to Rage Powers and different Archetypes.

[Prime32]

While most PF classes have been buffed at least slightly, the rest of PF's rules are less supportive of mundanes (eg. nerfed feats, mundane fear effects don't stack but magic ones do), so the gap between casters and noncasters ends up widening from 3.5.


Some of the higher level Rage Powers are pretty damn sweet and, by and large, very difficult/impossible to duplicate without magic for a fighter. I can't think of anything else giving Pounce, Barbarians can grow their own Wings, and Come and Get Me is awesome. Not to refute the general meat of what you say, but there are some solid reasons to look at a prolonged career as a Barbarian.In 3.5 a barbarian could have both Pounce and Flight at lv1. In PF they're only available after 10 levels of barbarian, one requiring a 3-power chain, the other requiring a 5-power chain; you can't get both until lv16.

The PF designers have also said it's "unrealistic" for Pounce to work with non-natural weapons, so the only real way to use it is a Synthesist summoner. Who gets it at lv1.

[Peat]

In 3.5 a barbarian could have both Pounce and Flight at lv1. In PF they're only available after 10 levels of barbarian, one requiring a 3-power chain, the other requiring a 5-power chain; you can't get both until lv16.

The PF designers have also said it's "unrealistic" for Pounce to work with non-natural weapons, so the only real way to use it is a Synthesist summoner. Who gets it at lv1.

I never said it was an improvement, or that these were easy to get options - in fact, that was rather my point; these are options only open to people not dipping Barbarian.

Although that'd be a fairly substantial nerf to Pounce, even with the Barbarian's access to natural weapons through Rage powers.

[Novawurmson]

When converting material from 3.5, remember that Pathfinder has a lower damage ceiling - that is, there are fewer ways to get bonus damage, or they've been changed to grant smaller amounts of damage. I brought in some Totemists to a low level campaign and almost killed my players. I'm also letting a Ranger use a Swift Hunter build that let him outpace the party in damage for quite a while (the Rogue getting ITWF and Agile daggers helped).

Just as a small note, I did play a Warblade for a while in a Pathfinder campaign, and it worked out great. Ended up switching the character to a Cleric because the party needed a support, not another damage dealer, but it was fun while it lasted :P


I think that PF Barbarian is still Tier 4, but from different angle now. 3.5 Barbarian is example of Tier 4 as class who can do one thing very, very well, namely fight. PF Barbarian seems to be example of Tier 4 class who can do many things on okay level, thanks to Rage Powers and different Archetypes.

^Spot on.

Throw my vote in with the "Summoner is tier 2" crowd. They really get a good mix of 80-90% of the spells you want, often discounted - Haste, Glitterdust Black Tentacles, etc. - buffs, crowd control, SoD/SoS. Then they get spammable summons. Then they get a Fighter.

Melee classes who carry big heavy sticks who can't get pounce should think about taking the Vital Strike chain of feats. It's not as good as pounce, but it lessens the penalties for moving and attacking.

CMB/CMD is far more balanced than the old rules at early levels, but without heavy optimization, don't expect to be tripping anything at high levels. Of course, at high levels of optimization, you get things like the Tetori Monk who can negate Freedom of Movement's effects on grappling, making it arguably the best grappler in PF.

Deadly Aim along with the changes to Power Attack and the removal of most damage multipliers (Leap Attack) makes archery one of the highest damage combat styles in Pathfinder.

Fighters get some actual class features.

Alchemist is tier 3 (but very nice against heavily armored opponents in a low-magic campaign, I'll learning; touch attacks OP!). Paladin is tier 4 and fun.

Classes with few skill points benefit from the consolidated skill system and the changes to the "class skill" system.

Prestige Classes are mostly gone, and multi-classing isn't as required as it often feels like it is in 3.5.

Changes to races make Half Elves viable for some builds, and all of the core races now have a net +2 to stats. Some of the new racial feats opened up interesting doors for a lot of races (Half-Orcs can get full ferocity, Orcs can get a Witch archetype based on Con and hatred).

Archetypes and alternate racial features make characters very customizable, but can be bewildering to new players; slowly introduce new material to them, easing them in to the character building process.

Feats are gained every odd level, and many classes get bonus feats, easing the pain on feat-starved builds. My party is now level 12, and groans when they have to pick up a new feat - they've already got what they have to have, so I have to work with them to find something fun and interesting.

The removal of the Concentration skill makes it much harder for spellcasters to cast in melee range. Squishies to the back of the party!

Finally, there's some great third party material out there for Pathfinder. I especially recommend Dreamscarred Press's Psionics Unleashed, a PF update for psionics (available for free on the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/)).

[Novawurmson]

Oh, and my personal opinion: Ban the Synthesist Summoner. Look at any cheesy build for Pathfinder, and almost all of them start with a level or two of the ol' SS. Dump all physical stats, still get physical stats? It's the 3.5 Druid all over again, only it doesn't have to wait for Wild Shape.

[ThiagoMartell]

Oh, and my personal opinion: Ban the Synthesist Summoner. Look at any cheesy build for Pathfinder, and almost all of them start with a level or two of the ol' SS. Dump all physical stats, still get physical stats? It's the 3.5 Druid all over again, only it doesn't have to wait for Wild Shape.

Any build that uses just a few levels of Synthesist is painting a big target on itself. Hello, banishment.
Remember, all eidolons can be recognized as such on sight.
Also, by RAW, you use the eidolon's BAB in fused form. So any build with a single level of Synthesist ends up with BAB +1 in fused form.

[Novawurmson]

About the BAB...that's not what the FAQ on the Paizo site (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8k8r/faq#v5748eaic9obc) says.


Summoner: Does a synthesist (page 80) use his own Hit Dice or his eidolon's Hit Dice for evolutions based on Hit Dice, such as Breath Weapon and Web? What about his BAB for making attacks?
The synthesist uses the eidolon's Hit Dice for the effects of evolutions, not his summoner Hit Dice or his total Hit Dice.

When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal. For example, a fighter 19/summoner 1 normally has a total BAB of +19 (+19 from fighter, +0 from summoner), and when fused with his eidolon this increases to +20 (+19 from fighter, +1 from the 1st-level eidolon).

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/02/11

Meaning it works like a Monk's Flurry of Blows.

Banishment isn't available until level 11 for Clerics, 13 for Wizards and Summoners; Dismissal does the same thing a few levels earlier, but there's another problem:

They're both Will save spells against a class with a good will save, and an archetype with no reason not to crank his WIS out the wazoo (along with INT and CHA, of course).

Thinking about it some more, perhaps the Synthesist merely highlights the problems inherent in the vanilla Summoner, but annoyance with the archetype remains.

[jaybird]

Any build that uses just a few levels of Synthesist is painting a big target on itself. Hello, banishment.
Remember, all eidolons can be recognized as such on sight.
Also, by RAW, you use the eidolon's BAB in fused form. So any build with a single level of Synthesist ends up with BAB +1 in fused form.

No, they posted a clarification - you use the Eidolon's BAB for all Summoner levels in a multiclass build.

Seriously though guys, Synthesist is NOT as powerful as vanilla Summoner.

[Novawurmson]

I can concede that it's more or less as powerful as the base Summoner overall, it's still a ridiculously overpowered dip for just about anyone.

[jaybird]

I can concede that it's more or less as powerful as the base Summoner overall, it's still a ridiculously overpowered dip for just about anyone.

Why shouldn't melee have pounce?

EDIT: the fact that it lets you dump physical stats to hell is pretty overpowered, though. Forgot about that.

[ThiagoMartell]

They're both Will save spells against a class with a good will save, and an archetype with no reason not to crank his WIS out the wazoo (along with INT and CHA, of course).

But then it's not a dip, is it?
Also, as a dip, you won't get spectacular stats.

[Larpus]

But then it's not a dip, is it?
Also, as a dip, you won't get spectacular stats.
Depends on what's the rest of the build.

Paladin or Inquisitor? Scary.

EDIT: Even Monk, actually.

[ThiagoMartell]

Depends on what's the rest of the build.

Paladin or Inquisitor? Scary.

EDIT: Even Monk, actually.

Monk or Inquisitor with sucky Dex? Good luck.
To use your other class features, you're going to need biped form. That's Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13. You can get Ability Increase once. Str 18, Dex 12, Con 13. Those are pretty sucky stats. Sure, you have good mental stats as well. You're also one level behing in class features and vulnerable to banishment effects. You can't even use summon eidolon in an emergency, since that's a level 2 spell. You could buy a wand, but then again that will cost as much as gauntlets of ogre strenght. While you're jumping through hoops for Str 18, the ordinary human fighter is already at Str 22 (18 + 2 racial + 2 gauntlets of ogre strenght).

[Arbane]

Monk or Inquisitor with sucky Dex? Good luck.
To use your other class features, you're going to need biped form. .

Why? Arms and hands are only a few Evolution Points away.

[grarrrg]

Why? Arms and hands are only a few Evolution Points away.

The discussion involves dipping Synthesist to add to other classes. Spending 2 of your VERY limited Evo-points on hands isn't ideal.

[Arbane]

The discussion involves dipping Synthesist to add to other classes. Spending 2 of your VERY limited Evo-points on hands isn't ideal.

Oh, right. Makes sense.

Hm... can a Synthesist cast spells if their Eidolon form doesn't have hands? The description doesn't say...

[ThiagoMartell]

Oh, right. Makes sense.

Hm... can a Synthesist cast spells if their Eidolon form doesn't have hands? The description doesn't say...

They can't. There is a thread in the Paizo forums and SKR clarified that. I think it was added to the official FAQ, but I'm not sure.
Bottom line - aside from a few corner cases (like Gundolon) Synthesist multiclasses pretty bad. Even Gundolon uses seven Summoner levels, which can't be called a dip.

[Larpus]

Yeah, that's true.

Somewhere in my head I read "Synthesist dip" as "include Synthesist in the build", which does allow some crazy stuff with the scores, but requires enough investment as to make you ask why the person bothered to be anything but a Synthesist anyway.

While we're talking Synthesist and power balance however, I can say that I would never allow someone playing a Synthesist to dip Paladin.

[jaybird]

While we're talking Synthesist and power balance however, I can say that I would never allow someone playing a Synthesist to dip Paladin.

It's not THAAAAAT bad, all you get is your casting stat to saves...:smalltongue:

[ThiagoMartell]

It's not THAAAAAT bad, all you get is your casting stat to saves...:smalltongue:

Well, you also get Smite Evil, which my players have dubbed "going supersaiyan"

[grarrrg]

Bottom line - aside from a few corner cases (like Gundolon) Synthesist multiclasses pretty bad. Even Gundolon uses seven Summoner levels, which can't be called a dip.

WOO! I didn't have to mention it myself for once! :smallsmile:

On the other hand... Which Gundolon are YOU thinking of?
The original (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11748177#post11748177) version has 10 levels, the updated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) version (but out of date as of the ARG) has 12.

But I agree, a dip in pretty much ANY Summoner is not worth it (a "dip" being around 4 or fewer levels).

[Man on Fire]

Okay, thanks for all advice, now some more questions:

1.

While most PF classes have been buffed at least slightly, the rest of PF's rules are less supportive of mundanes (eg. nerfed feats, mundane fear effects don't stack but magic ones do), so the gap between casters and noncasters ends up widening from 3.5.

Which feats were nerfed? I know about Power Attack and I thought of closing the gap a bit by replacing nerfed feats with their 3.5 counterparts. What other changes widens the gap between casters and noncasters?

2.
Okay, so some classes I decided to bring into Pathfinder from 3.5 - Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader (all with changes to maneuvers you guys mentioned, like replacing skills), Dragonfire Adept and Dread Necromancer. Anything I should beware with them? I was also thinking of Archivist and Artificer, that second one because we're probably going ot have a gunslinger, so he would make the game more climatic - any tips about converting them to PF?

More later, when I'll think of them.

[Prime32]

Which feats were nerfed? I know about Power Attack and I thought of closing the gap a bit by replacing nerfed feats with their 3.5 counterparts. What other changes widens the gap between casters and noncasters?Well there's any feat with "Improved" in its name, and the aforementioned "mundane fear effects do not stack, magic ones do". Monks can no longer flurry unless they use Two-Weapon Fighting. Rogues no longer have ways to penetrate immunity to sneak attack, can't sneak attack with alchemical items, and can't draw more than one alchemical item per round (plus a few more nerfs I can't remember). Flying creatures and snakes become immune to trip. You can't pounce except with natural weapons. Class levels don't count as HD for abilities from templates. Spellcasters get extra abilities, some of which are quite powerful (a human sorcerer has 29 more spells known in PF than 3.5, for instance, as well as random abilities like breath weapons). Finally, the system punishes multiclassing.

[grarrrg]

Which feats were nerfed?
Improved Trip is now Improved and Greater Trip.
Similar for most/all of the "combat maneuver" feats.


Okay, so some classes I decided to bring into Pathfinder from 3.5 ... Artificer, ...any tips about converting them to PF?

Well, there is a 3rd party Artificer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer) for PF already.



Monks can no longer flurry unless they use Two-Weapon Fighting.

This isn't really a nerf. The end results of Flurry and Two-Weapon Fighting are the same (extra attack, all attacks take -2 to-hit). The PROBLEM is the whole Unarmed Stike thing.
Is my whole body 1 weapon? Or are my Fists each separate weapons? Or do my feet....


Rogues no longer have ways to penetrate immunity to sneak attack

This isn't a nerf (yet).
In 3.5 Core, Rogues didn't have ways to get around Immune Sneak either, it wasn't until later books and such that they could get around it.
PF is still relatively young, and comparing Core PF to Core 3.5, Sneak Attack is actually improved, being able to Sneak Attack Undead by default now, among other things.
So 'currently' I'd have to put this in the "it got better" column.


You can't pounce except with natural weapons.
I do not believe this is a current official ruling.
It's still in the "forum response" stage.
(unless something has changed)


Finally, the system punishes multiclassing.
Slight correction: It does not "punish" multi-classing. There is no inherent down-side to taking more than 1 class. This is improved from 3.5, where there were Experience penalties applied to over-multi-classing (which everyone ignored anyway, but...).

But PF DOES encourage/reward sinle-classing. Most (if not all) base classes have abilities that scale with level (Fighter's Weapon/Armor Training for example), and the Favored Class Bonus system also rewards sticking to 1 class.