Wizard gone Gish

[Mightypickle]

Hi there!

I've been playing with a wizard for some time now. He's a Focused Specialist Transmuter banning enchantment, necromancy, and illusion. I'm level 2 now. Here's the build:

Gray Elf Wizard 2
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 19
Wis: 10
Cha: 9

ACFs: Sudden Shift
Feats: Spell Focus (Transmutation); Collegiate Wizard (Flaw)
Spells Known: Benign Transposition: Bigby's Helpful Hand; Blockade; Comprehend Languages; Enlarge Person; Expeditious Retreat, Swift; Grease; Mage Armor; Nerveskitter; Ray of Clumsiness; Scholar's Touch; Burning Hands; Alarm; True Strike.

I'm enjoying the character to an extent, but I'm finding it really dificult to deal with another mage in the group. We both tried to be god in this campaign, and it's not working out. Our In Game competition has extended to outside the game, and it's really bothering me. As such I've been thinking I might be able to turn my character into a gish.

I am rather worried about that choice however, as I'm uncertain about it's effectiveness. The low strenght does not allow power attack, so I was thinking a ranged gish could be the way to go, but I don't even know if those exist. Honestly I think I'd prefer to go meele, but I think I'd have fun either way.

Any advice is welcome. I have no experience in Gishes. Especially concerning feats and useful spells.

And last of all a question: Can I sacrifice multiple spells on a single attack with the Arcane Strike feat?

I'm really interested in the Swiftblade PrC, and would love it if my build could be something as simple as Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5, while still being effective.

By the way, Collegiate Wizard and the 19 intelligence are flavor choices. I needed to be dumber than my in game brother, and Collegiate Wizard just fit my character concept really, really well.

Thank you for reading.

[Aegis013]

This is what I'd recommend, look into a dip into Warblade and advancement through the Jade Phoenix Mage prestige class from Tome of Battle. You can advance to get pretty reasonably good standard action attack options, which can leave your swifts open for spells (Quickened perhaps) or Boosts.

If you only take one level of Warblade, you could get as high as a 6th level maneuver at level 12. With more levels of Warblade, you could get higher.

As far as Arcane Strike, yes, you can sacrifice multiple spells. The damage stacks up but the to-hit bonus is only equal to the highest level spell sacrificed. You can't get more d4's of bonus damage than your BAB as per the text of Arcane Strike.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You don't qualify for Power Attack, which basically means you're stuck not becoming a Gish.

If you insist on being a Gish, see about retraining some ability scores, ACFs, and even class levels via the section in PH2.

If you can't retrain much, then at least get rid of focused specialist. Between adventures get Iron Will for 3,000 gp via the Otyugh Hole without having to spend a feat on it. Go Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) 5/ Incantatrix 4+, you'll still have the same prohibited schools due to Incantatrix. At Wizard 1 get Combat Reflexes, at Wizard 5 trade your bonus feat for the Domain Power ACF in CC to get Extend Spell via Planning. Get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd and invest as many skill points as you can into it to get the greatest return possible, and put it all toward Spellcraft so you can take ten an succeed for Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect. Make the item familiar a ring and wear a glove over it so opponents will have neither line of sight nor line of effect to attack it directly. It's an intelligent item which is considered a construct which is a creature, creatures cannot be disabled via dispelling, cannot be destroyed via disjunction, and are not deactivated in antimagic or dead magic areas. You can use Cooperative Metamgic on your own spells when not in combat, because rounds and action economy don't exist outside of combat. You'll want to have Persistent Fell Drain Thunderlance and multiple instances of Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives. That should give you plenty of attacks that deal more than just damage, and Thunderlance is great with Combat Reflexes.

If you can retrain a lot of stuff then you'll want Str 13+ for sure, anything higher is a waste due to Polymorph. Go Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 1/ Martial Wizard 1/ Fighter 1/ Elf Paragon 2/ Wizard 1/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4 for your final build. You'll want Power Attack, Item Familiar, Combat Reflexes, Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Persistent Spell, Fell Drain, Minor Shapeshift, and Ability Enhancer. Between the Bite of the Werecreature spells, Draconic Polymorph, and Wraithstrike, plus whatever other persistable defensive and offensive buffs you can come up with, you'll be an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction in the mid to late levels.

[Namfuak]

If your DM doesn't mind using the PF version of Arcane Archer instead of the 3.5 one (PF one progresses spellcasting 7/10 and has a better enhance arrows feature), you would do well as an arcane archer with your high dexterity. You would likely do something like Wizard 4/Fighter 2/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 1/Arcane Archer 10/AbjChamp 2-3. If you don't mind losing the last two levels of Arcane Archer, you can keep 9th level spells - Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 1/Arcane Archer 8/AbjChamp 2-4. The main reason I'm using fighter is because you need 3 fighter bonus feats for Arcane Archer, so it saves you feats. You can take something else if you want, it just pretty much needs to have full BAB.

[killianh]

First off give a good read through this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786) and this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5525) then drop transmutation focus if you can, although I would really suggest you playing a duskblade if you're not really sure on how a gish works, or a self buffing cleric.

With the set up you have it will probably be a fair bit of fun, but I'm sure there are at least a few 100 ways to do it better (and most don't even involve taking 5-8 separate classes like a lot of gish builds)

[herrhauptmann]

You might be able to do some form of a limited Jack B Quick build with that. But it'd probably lose more caster levels than you want.
Basically, rather than doing damage each time you hit, you want to try and apply status effects on your enemies.
So DMG2 sudden stunning weapons.
Wear soulfire armor and wield a lifedrinker weapon (40k+cost of MW weapon for a +1 lifedrinker)
Handing out fear or sickness effects can be nice too. But difficult.

I've got a partial list of weapon effects you can buy later in the game here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218331

As a wizard gish you would want to go for Abjurant Champion, and use the spells Shield, and (Greater) Luminous armor. Also, go and research a version of the spell Mage Armor that's an abjuration spell.

"Dumber than in-game brother."
What? Is this the other wizard you're competing with?

[Wise Green Bean]

Carmellian monk gives you INT to AC. That can add up to as much as +13 or something crazy like that at high levels, IMO well worth the loss of a speel level and a feat. Add in abjurant champion, argent savant, and paragnostic apostle, and you can get a truly preposterous AC. Like, natural 20 or miss.

[Fable Wright]

The main thing about being a Gish is that you need some form of damage outlet. The most common one is Wraithstrike+Power Attack, but using Maneuvers is an alternate way of going about it, usually with Jade Phoenix Mage. If you need Strength for Power Attack, you could probably arrange with your DM for some mishap to happen that gives you +2 Str/-2 Dex permanently, and then putting your 4th level point in Strength to get it up to 13. It's not a mage becoming buff instantly, but it would probably work from a flavor standpoint. Especially given that you're playing a Transmuter...

On Swiftblade: The thing that the class has most of is defensive options, with a 9th level capstone that is just insane. What the class wants to do is to use its actions for combat, and then using swift actions to weave in some spellcasting. To use this, you might want to use things like Spell Matrix to store up some spells for use later, use the Heart of X series to activate Swift-speed buffs, and so on. You can still cast in combat if you need to, to lay down some buffs/battlefield control, but that's probably the other mage's job at this point. Your 4th level+ spells should probably either be long duration buffs or swift action casting/activation spells, or out of combat utility. Casting Prying Eyes and then using that to find encounters ahead of time also opens this up to shorter duration buffs, so that's something to consider. Oh, and Antimagic Field becomes absolutely terrifying on you once you get Fortified Hustle ability. Your Haste ability, and everything keyed off of it, are Ex abilities. Have fun with that. :smallwink:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Ideally you could get some amount of retraining in to help your build. That said, a lot of the obvious choices have been mentioned. Biffoniacus_Furiou has some solid advice, even if I heavily dislike elf paragon versus human paragon, although that's not really something you can change due to the nature of the game right now.

You have more or less three routes with what you have right now. Save for JPM, you'll want Arcane Strike. Hell, even with JPM's Arcane Wrath, you may still want to eventually take Arcane Strike.

Swiftblade
Stay till Wizard 6 and go into Swiftblade9/AbC 5. This would require next to no retraining, although you don't have access to Power Attack for a while. However, you don't actually need to take it. By using Heroics (2nd level, SpC) you can nab Power Attack as a pseudo-bonus feat for 10 min/CL assuming you get a +3 str boost from somewhere else. The real joy is that this spell can net you a lot of feats.

It would come online later, but I'd suggest ignoring Power Attack and instead via this feat and the lovely maneuver granting feats eventually get Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade, although you'd want Weapon Finesse in there instead. It's not as good as Power Attack for damage, but it is an option as you'll have more than enough 2nd level transmutation slots to emulate fighter levels.

Jade Phoenix Mage

Use the above mentioned Heroics into whichever maneuvers you want in a day. You can choose between Crusader or Warblade to qualify. I prefer Crusader, as its refresh mechanic allows you to always use your swift/standards for spells and maneuvers. My preferred entry is Crusader 1/Wizard 4 (using Favored from Cityscape to meet the skill requirements on concentration a level early. It costs an extra feat [ie, flaw :smalltongue:] but has similar flavor as Collegiate Wizard in this regard. This early entry means you cannab both JPM 10 and Abjurant Champion 5, although the order you want those levels is an argument unto itself

Multiclassing EK

Elf paragon has already been mentioned. It's, well, it's not Human paragon in terms of caster levels, but it's there. You could also check out Ruather (Races of the Wild). It's full casting, 3/4 BAB and pretty easy to qualify for, assuming you work with your group/DM for the flavor requirment. I like it as a replacement filler to more wizard levels before going into Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion. This does, however, mean you'll need Otherwordly or Miltia to get the martial weapon proficiencies to get into the PrC.

[Mightypickle]

I thank you all! There's some great advice in this thread! I would rather not go with any tome of battle class like the Jade Phoenix Mage, but I will if I feel there's no way to be effective in some other way (due to the possible lack of power attack)


"Dumber than in-game brother."
What? Is this the other wizard you're competing with?

Yes. I apologize if that was confusing. It's not really relevant, but for my character to work I needed to be an inferior mage to him. I figured having a lesser intelligence was a good way to show that. He's the genius type, I work hard. As such, I'm slightly less intelligent. Maybe "Dumber" was not the best choice of a word.



If you can't retrain much, then at least get rid of focused specialist. Between adventures get Iron Will for 3,000 gp via the Otyugh Hole without having to spend a feat on it. Go Martial Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 4+, you'll still have the same prohibited schools due to Incantatrix. At Wizard 1 get Combat Reflexes, at Wizard 5 trade your bonus feat for the Domain Power ACF in CC to get Extend Spell via Planning. Get Item Familiar at 3rd and invest as many skill points as you can into it to get the greatest return possible, and put it all toward Spellcraft so you can take ten an succeed for Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect. Make the item familiar a ring and wear a glove over it so opponents will have neither line of sight nor line of effect to attack it directly. It's an intelligent item which is considered a construct which is a creature, creatures cannot be disabled via dispelling, cannot be destroyed via disjunction, and are not deactivated in antimagic or dead magic areas. You can use Cooperative Metamgic on your own spells when not in combat, because rounds and action economy don't exist outside of combat. You'll want to have Persistent Fell Drain Thunderlance and multiple instances of Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives. That should give you plenty of attacks that deal more than just damage, and Thunderlance is great with Combat Reflexes.

If you can retrain a lot of stuff then you'll want Str 13+ for sure, anything higher is a waste due to Polymorph. Go Elf Paragon 1/ Martial Wizard 1/ Fighter 1/ Elf Paragon 2/ Wizard 1/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4 for your final build. You'll want Power Attack, Item Familiar, Combat Reflexes, Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Persistent Spell, Fell Drain, Minor Shapeshift, and Ability Enhancer. Between the Bite of the Werecreature spells, Draconic Polymorph, and Wraithstrike, plus whatever other persistable defensive and offensive buffs you can come up with, you'll be an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction in the mid to late levels.

Those are all great suggestions, but I can't really retrain too much. Besides, I feel that's a bit too much considering I play in a group with a sword-and-board barbarian who took monkey-grip and hopes to stack his AC really, really high. But Thunderlance looks incredibly awesome!! Also, Incantatrix is out. The other mage is already taking it, and I'd rather not take it.



You have more or less three routes with what you have right now. Save for JPM, you'll want Arcane Strike. Hell, even with JPM's Arcane Wrath, you may still want to eventually take Arcane Strike.

Swiftblade
Stay till Wizard 6 and go into Swiftblade9/AbC 5. This would require next to no retraining, although you don't have access to Power Attack for a while. However, you don't actually need to take it. By using Heroics (2nd level, SpC) you can nab Power Attack as a pseudo-bonus feat for 10 min/CL assuming you get a +3 str boost from somewhere else. The real joy is that this spell can net you a lot of feats.

It would come online later, but I'd suggest ignoring Power Attack and instead via this feat and the lovely maneuver granting feats eventually get Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade, although you'd want Weapon Finesse in there instead. It's not as good as Power Attack for damage, but it is an option as you'll have more than enough 2nd level transmutation slots to emulate fighter levels.

Heroics sounds really tasty :smallamused:, thank you for suggesting it to me! If I go through with this Gish I believe I just got myself a favorite spell!


The main thing about being a Gish is that you need some form of damage outlet. The most common one is Wraithstrike+Power Attack, but using Maneuvers is an alternate way of going about it, usually with Jade Phoenix Mage. If you need Strength for Power Attack, you could probably arrange with your DM for some mishap to happen that gives you +2 Str/-2 Dex permanently, and then putting your 4th level point in Strength to get it up to 13. It's not a mage becoming buff instantly, but it would probably work from a flavor standpoint. Especially given that you're playing a Transmuter...

On Swiftblade: The thing that the class has most of is defensive options, with a 9th level capstone that is just insane. What the class wants to do is to use its actions for combat, and then using swift actions to weave in some spellcasting. To use this, you might want to use things like Spell Matrix to store up some spells for use later, use the Heart of X series to activate Swift-speed buffs, and so on. You can still cast in combat if you need to, to lay down some buffs/battlefield control, but that's probably the other mage's job at this point. Your 4th level+ spells should probably either be long duration buffs or swift action casting/activation spells, or out of combat utility. Casting Prying Eyes and then using that to find encounters ahead of time also opens this up to shorter duration buffs, so that's something to consider. Oh, and Antimagic Field becomes absolutely terrifying on you once you get Fortified Hustle ability. Your Haste ability, and everything keyed off of it, are Ex abilities. Have fun with that.

That's awesome!! The idea for me raising my strength, I mean! It would fit right in with a recent event in the campaign! I'm certain the DM will allow it. That's awesome :smallsmile:.

And thank you for your review of the Swiftblade class. I'll keep all of that in mind if I go that route.


First off give a good read through this and this then drop transmutation focus if you can, although I would really suggest you playing a duskblade if you're not really sure on how a gish works, or a self buffing cleric.

With the set up you have it will probably be a fair bit of fun, but I'm sure there are at least a few 100 ways to do it better (and most don't even involve taking 5-8 separate classes like a lot of gish builds)

Thank you for the Handbooks. I looked through the second one, and I had already read through the first one before making this thread :smallsmile:.

I'm certain it would be easier to just play a duskblade or some other simpler Gish class, but I'd rather not change my character. But I do find duskblade really interesting, and will definitely play one in the future :smallwink:


Those are wonderful suggestions. I'm quite aware I won't be nearly as effective as I could be deciding to switch my mage from God to a Gish, but I'm happy to see there are ways to make it work :smallsmile:.

A couple of questions and a request:
1) Will lacking power attack really hurt me that much? I must point out that I'm in a low-optimization group, so I won't be competing with any uberchargers or any other high-damage build. Would it be possible to make do without it and still be effective supposing I went with the Swiftblade? (I really loved that PrC)

2) Is Elf Paragon really worth it just for the +2 Int? The first level looks rather intimidating.

The request:
Can you guys suggest me some more spells? Thunderlance and Heroics really left me wanting for more :smallredface:

[killianh]

1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)
Mage Armor as an abjuration spell.
Enlarge Person (PHB)


2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)
Luminous Armor (BoED good preparation casters only)


3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Greater Mage Armor (SC)

4th Level Spells:
Greater Luminous Armor (BoED good preparation casters only)
Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)

[Zonugal]

What about going towards RuneSmith from Races of Stone? There is an adaptation near the end of its section opening it up for non-Dwarves to enter.

A build like Grey Elf Wizard 5/Crusader 1/RuneSmith 1/Abjurant Champion 5/RuneSmith 4 isn't too bad.

[Snowbluff]

You don't qualify for Power Attack, which basically means you're stuck not becoming a Gish.

If you insist on being a Gish, see about retraining some ability scores, ACFs, and even class levels via the section in PH2.



Heroics + Bull's Strength, Bite of the Werebear, Bite of the Werewolf can give you Power Attack. I'd suggest getting you Str to 13 anyway, and don't play an Elf. You can make up the difference as you level to make yourself smarter. As a Gish, your Int should be high, but not at the expense of Con and access to Power Attack.

Swiftblade is awesome. I really like Wizard6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChamp5, and no other strictly Gish build is more powerful. Incantatrix is nice if you want some persistomancy, and is more of a pure caster option, but it's awesome. Fell Drain also gets my vote, but that can get a book thrown at you.

Also, replaced the Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight in this guy's build with Swiftblade9. Hell, he even has Spellword here, drop that too, since Mage Armor and Luminous Armor (You are Good, right?) doesn't have Spell Failure, and Swift. Just sort it out so you have 17 CL and 16 BaB.

Fighter can probably go as well (You don't need the all Martial Proficiencies), unless you need the Fighter Feat (In which case it's sunk cost, since can take fighter feats as wizard and Extend Spell separately).

Take the Martial Wizard Variant, like he said. It makes getting into Swiftblade really easy.

[Fable Wright]

A couple of questions and a request:
1) Will lacking power attack really hurt me that much? I must point out that I'm in a low-optimization group, so I won't be competing with any uberchargers or any other high-damage build. Would it be possible to make do without it and still be effective supposing I went with the Swiftblade? (I really loved that PrC)

2) Is Elf Paragon really worth it just for the +2 Int? The first level looks rather intimidating.

The request:
Can you guys suggest me some more spells? Thunderlance and Heroics really left me wanting for more :smallredface:
1. It depends on the sort of damage you're talking about. If it's mostly low-key stuff, using Arcane Strike and blowing a 3-4th level spell slot (At level 9) would give you respectable damage when you do use it. Maybe a little bit less/more than the main frontliner of your group, depending on optimization. The main thing is getting extra damage off the iteratives, and using that for a damage base to keep up with the people who hit people with sticks. The problem is, fueling this eats up your spell slots like little else, and you need to hit on both attacks to really get value from it, usually meaning also using Wraithstrike. This... really cuts down on the options available to you, as most of your spells will become fuel for your casting. Plus, you have to be 9th level before mattering much at all in combat. Power attack costs a feat, but it's a great way to get noticeable amounts of damage in without pitching all of your higher level slots to Arcane Strike, letting you do more stuff with them.

2. Mostly, it's being used for prerequisites- it offers Good BAB and 2 levels of advancement, and can be entered at any time for easy entry to other classes. It also happens to add +2 Int and some other stuff as well. Mostly, though, it was being used so that at level 20 the class would have a BAB of +16, because most people want to have a BAB like that at level 20, and only level 20, for some reason. If you're going Swiftblade? It's a waste of time.

As for new spells, check out the spell list on this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212289) homebrew class. None of them are homebrew, and all of them work well on the right Gish. There are some pretty neat ones in the list that I've never heard of before that are actually pretty good.

[Godskook]

Forget Gish, go Arcane Rogue. Get into Unseen Seer, and use spells like Cloud of Knives(there's at least 3 of them) to get free action attacks to proc your SA with. Combine with that Ranger-based SA spell you get from Unseen Seer.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You need to get at least 16 BAB by level 20 tonget your fourth itterative attack, at epic levels you don't gain actual BAB, just an epic attack bonus.

Obviously if you are not going epic, the point is moot; but high BAB is usually wanted on a martial build.

[Jallorn]

See if you can get an item that gives you Divine Power all the time. Full BAB and +8 Str will make being a Gish easy.

[herrhauptmann]

The werebeast shapechanging spells (SC) also give some nice stat changes, and some give useful bonus feats. Like power attack. Of course, the DM might declare that you ruin some of your items when you change into the hybrid form.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The two PrC's you are looking for are Spellsword (one level dip) and Abjurant Champion (taken all the way through if possible for auto-quicken Abjuration spells)

You'll need a dip somewhere for some BAB and weapon proficiencies. I'd suggest something like Warblade, personally, for the Int synergy and some additional useful maneuvers and a stance.

[Azoth]

He is already an elf. He comes with some martial weapon profs so that won't be the issue. I gotta say I am a fan of the swiftblade build that was posted up a little bit. While there are other, and occasionaly arguably better, Gish PRCs...the swiftblade is just sweet in my book. Just make sure to take practiced spellcaster at some point.

As far as dips go with his current stats...a single level of swordsage can net him a shadow hand stance 6 good maneuvers and qualify him for the shadow blade feat so that his high dex is meaningful in combat. It could also be worth while to see if your DM would allow Kung Fu Genius to apply to the swordsage AC bonus.

Maybe something like wiz6/swftbld8/ss1/swiftblade+1/abchamp4
Elf generalist substitution levels with a humming bird familiar
Transmutation domain wizard ACF
Martial Wizard ACF

Feats:
(Flaw) collegiate wizard
(1) combat casting
(W1) dodge
(3) mobility
(W5) weapon finess
(6)arcane strike
(9) extend spell
(12) persist spell
(15) kung fu genious
(18) shadow blade

I know, not an optimized build in the least, but in a low/mid op group it could be fun. Comes out with 16BAB and 16CL...so not horrid by Gish standards.

Stance wise I would suggest Island of blades for easy flanking and any party rogue type instantly loving you. For manuevers...the 3 save replacers are auto passes for you. Maybe mountain hammer (screw DR/hardness), shadow jaunt (infinite short range teleports good for out of combat as they are standard action), and another 0 prereq manuever since none are sprining to mind.

The build gets dex to hit/damage, Int to init/ac, and the better parts of both abjurant champ and swift blade. So defensively sound and fairly capable of mele combat with the usual buff and smash routines.

[Snowbluff]

He is already an elf. He comes with some martial weapon profs so that won't be the issue. I gotta say I am a fan of the swiftblade build that was posted up a little bit. While there are other, and occasionaly arguably better, Gish PRCs...the swiftblade is just sweet in my book. Just make sure to take practiced spellcaster at some point.

As far as dips go with his current stats...a single level of swordsage can net him a shadow hand stance 6 good maneuvers and qualify him for the shadow blade feat so that his high dex is meaningful in combat. It could also be worth while to see if your DM would allow Kung Fu Genius to apply to the swordsage AC bonus.

Maybe something like wiz6/swftbld8/ss1/swiftblade+1/abchamp4
Elf generalist substitution levels with a humming bird familiar
Transmutation domain wizard ACF
Martial Wizard ACF

Feats:
(Flaw) collegiate wizard
(1) combat casting
(W1) dodge
(3) mobility
(W5) weapon finess
(6)arcane strike
(9) extend spell
(12) persist spell
(15) kung fu genious
(18) shadow blade

I know, not an optimized build in the least, but in a low/mid op group it could be fun. Comes out with 16BAB and 16CL...so not horrid by Gish standards.

Stance wise I would suggest Island of blades for easy flanking and any party rogue type instantly loving you. For manuevers...the 3 save replacers are auto passes for you. Maybe mountain hammer (screw DR/hardness), shadow jaunt (infinite short range teleports good for out of combat as they are standard action), and another 0 prereq manuever since none are sprining to mind.

The build gets dex to hit/damage, Int to init/ac, and the better parts of both abjurant champ and swift blade. So defensively sound and fairly capable of mele combat with the usual buff and smash routines.

I like this. I think I might tweak it sometime (Start Sorc, Swap Kung Fu Genius for Ascetic Mage, take a Bloodline feat and Versatile Spellcaster to get a 9th level spell).

[Azoth]

Glad to be of some use. Shows I have some decent optimization skills. I would also suggest unarmed swordsage over normal for one reason, and that is just me being a paranoid player. You give up nothing and gain a 1d6 unarmed strike. Nothin worse than being low on/out of spells, and not having your weapon around. No need for improv penalties or hoping someone has a spare shadow hand weapon lying about. Just punch them.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Even better as a wizard you can learn Greater Mighty Wallop to increase your base damage (with a sorc base I would suggest a Minir Eschema or a custom Runestaff) and IIRC US is a shadow hand weapon so Shadow Blade still applies.

[Mightypickle]

1. It depends on the sort of damage you're talking about. If it's mostly low-key stuff, using Arcane Strike and blowing a 3-4th level spell slot (At level 9) would give you respectable damage when you do use it. Maybe a little bit less/more than the main frontliner of your group, depending on optimization. The main thing is getting extra damage off the iteratives, and using that for a damage base to keep up with the people who hit people with sticks. The problem is, fueling this eats up your spell slots like little else, and you need to hit on both attacks to really get value from it, usually meaning also using Wraithstrike. This... really cuts down on the options available to you, as most of your spells will become fuel for your casting. Plus, you have to be 9th level before mattering much at all in combat. Power attack costs a feat, but it's a great way to get noticeable amounts of damage in without pitching all of your higher level slots to Arcane Strike, letting you do more stuff with them.

2. Mostly, it's being used for prerequisites- it offers Good BAB and 2 levels of advancement, and can be entered at any time for easy entry to other classes. It also happens to add +2 Int and some other stuff as well. Mostly, though, it was being used so that at level 20 the class would have a BAB of +16, because most people want to have a BAB like that at level 20, and only level 20, for some reason. If you're going Swiftblade? It's a waste of time.

As for new spells, check out the spell list on this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212289) homebrew class. None of them are homebrew, and all of them work well on the right Gish. There are some pretty neat ones in the list that I've never heard of before that are actually pretty good.

Thanks man! I really feel I have a better understanding of how this build is gonna work with arcane strike and PA (possibly). You've been incredibly helpful DMofDarkness. I'll be sure to check out the spells on that list! :smallbiggrin:


He is already an elf. He comes with some martial weapon profs so that won't be the issue. I gotta say I am a fan of the swiftblade build that was posted up a little bit. While there are other, and occasionaly arguably better, Gish PRCs...the swiftblade is just sweet in my book. Just make sure to take practiced spellcaster at some point.

As far as dips go with his current stats...a single level of swordsage can net him a shadow hand stance 6 good maneuvers and qualify him for the shadow blade feat so that his high dex is meaningful in combat. It could also be worth while to see if your DM would allow Kung Fu Genius to apply to the swordsage AC bonus.

Maybe something like wiz6/swftbld8/ss1/swiftblade+1/abchamp4
Elf generalist substitution levels with a humming bird familiar
Transmutation domain wizard ACF
Martial Wizard ACF

Feats:
(Flaw) collegiate wizard
(1) combat casting
(W1) dodge
(3) mobility
(W5) weapon finess
(6)arcane strike
(9) extend spell
(12) persist spell
(15) kung fu genious
(18) shadow blade

I know, not an optimized build in the least, but in a low/mid op group it could be fun. Comes out with 16BAB and 16CL...so not horrid by Gish standards.

Stance wise I would suggest Island of blades for easy flanking and any party rogue type instantly loving you. For manuevers...the 3 save replacers are auto passes for you. Maybe mountain hammer (screw DR/hardness), shadow jaunt (infinite short range teleports good for out of combat as they are standard action), and another 0 prereq manuever since none are sprining to mind.

The build gets dex to hit/damage, Int to init/ac, and the better parts of both abjurant champ and swift blade. So defensively sound and fairly capable of mele combat with the usual buff and smash routines.

That looks awesome! I didn't really want to take a ToB class, but those maneuvers seem lovely. I might dip in just for that. Dex to damage seems fine too, but I was kind of hoping to wield a longsword. I just find the idea of an elf with a longsword (classic) moving faster than the eye can see really cool. I do believe the longsword is not a Shadow Hand weapon, is that correct?

A question: I can't find this Kung Fu Genius feat anywhere, what does it do exactly?

A second question: Is Practiced Spellcaster a necessity? Would I be too gimped if I decided not to take it? Not that I wouldn't take anyway, of course.

Anyway, thanks for the advice guys. I'm confident I'll have a blast with this character once level 7 comes around. I intend to roleplay him as being addicted to the haste spell. Maybe even homebrewing a flaw so that I need to make a Concentration check to cast spell when not under the effects of haste. I think it will be a lot of fun to play. :smallsmile:

Any cool ideas are still welcome, but I believe I have what I wanted now. Thanks for all the advices!

[Snowbluff]

A question: I can't find this Kung Fu Genius feat anywhere, what does it do exactly?

A second question: Is Practiced Spellcaster a necessity? Would I be too gimped if I decided not to take it? Not that I wouldn't take anyway, of course.

Anyway, thanks for the advice guys. I'm confident I'll have a blast with this character once level 7 comes around. I intend to roleplay him as being addicted to the haste spell. Maybe even homebrewing a flaw so that I need to make a Concentration check to cast spell when not under the effects of haste. I think it will be a lot of fun to play. :smallsmile:


Kung Fu Genius is Dragon Mag/Dragon Compendium. It makes Monk's AC bonus based on Int.

Practiced Spellcaster is not really necessary. The sort of things most caster use CL for (Dispels, Durations, Spell Resistance) aren't going to be so important to you.

+1 Cookie for Hastehead/addiction flaw.

Also, you're welcome. :smallcool:

[Fable Wright]

I'm going to have to disagree with the Practiced Spellcaster feat not doing much- it really buffs up the battlefield control you will be doing, and is godly with Greater Magic Weapon. Plus, on round/level buffs for when your scrying system detects an encounter, the extra duration lets you add on more buffs and ensure that they actually do last the entire encounter. Finally, you really don't want to be dispelled. If your day-long buffs go poof, it's game over. You probably prepared them only once in the day in your non-focused slots, which were likely filled to the brim already, and they add a huge boost. Without them, you're a mage (albeit with a 50% miss chance) without armor wading into the frontlines, now with a decreased to hit and damage roll. It downgrades you from Mithril Gatling Gun (since you're probably not going to go up to Adamantine Chain Gun that often) to Glass Cannon. As in, less firepower, fragile as heck. Rings of Enduring Arcana and (Greater) Rings of Counterspelling set to (Greater) Dispel Magic are very, very nice to have on your person.

[Snowbluff]

Finally, you really don't want to be dispelled

Actually, this is important. While things like BFC and the like should be left up to the other caster, getting dispelled is a pain and a waste of slots. Still, unless your DM makes a habit of dispelling you, don't bother.

[roguemetal]

I have always considered a Gish to be best used in conjunction with someone else buffing them, and the Gish using most of their spells for direct damage and battlefield control. Gish without Practiced Spellcaster tend to lack the power to resist being dispelled, and even with it aren't usually specialized enough to ignore disjunction. Suel Arcanamach is an exception, but is pretty weak as a prestige class. A Gish doesn't need to be self-sufficient, just up to par with the party.

I'd suggest starting by going Fighter to grab whatever feats you need, then switching into Abjurant Champion or Eldrich Knight.
Three levels in duskblade would have been good from the getgo, but isn't too useful at this point. Runesmith is great, since it lets you cast in full plate, but I think it might be race exclusive. Archmage has some useful tricks for you, especially since you can't reach full BAB at this point anyway.
Arcane Archer Gishes are good too, but usually require feats pretty early.

Arcane Strike is the integral feat of most Gish builds. Be sure not to miss it.

If you have access to Eberron books, leveling in Paladin or Ranger and taking the Sword of Arcane Order feat is well worth it.