4th Ed woes...

[Xtomjames]

Hello Playgrounders, I've returned after along hiatus, stuck in my gaming woes once more. For I have joined a 4th edition game.

Lo, I find myself securely baffled by rule changes from my beloved 3.5 and I find myself asking way too many questions, including why I bothered joining a 4th ed game. No matter, I have chosen to start this thread.

My first question is a matter of issue for me. I like playing long medium short range characters and in the current campaign I have created a Shade hybrid rogue warlock. I'm having issues with OA. In 3.5 the wording says a "threatened square" for attacks of opportunity (Errata PHB) allowing for ranged OA. In 4th ed this it says an adjacent square and it must be a melee attack. Is there no way to gain a range OA using my eldritch blast in 4th ed? More importantly isn't there a means of doing this at low level (say level 7)?

Further, I miss the eldritch blast augmentation that exists in 3.5, are there no means of augmenting it in 4th ed (shape type and range specifically). I've already taken on the elemental pact but I'd like very much to be able to shoot a cone out with the Eldritch Blast or to get Eldritch spear.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[Ashdate]

Hello Playgrounders, I've returned after along hiatus, stuck in my gaming woes once more. For I have joined a 4th edition game.

Lo, I find myself securely baffled by rule changes from my beloved 3.5 and I find myself asking way too many questions, including why I bothered joining a 4th ed game. No matter, I have chosen to start this thread.

My first question is a matter of issue for me. I like playing long medium short range characters and in the current campaign I have created a Shade hybrid rogue warlock. I'm having issues with OA. In 3.5 the wording says a "threatened square" for attacks of opportunity (Errata PHB) allowing for ranged OA. In 4th ed this it says an adjacent square and it must be a melee attack. Is there no way to gain a range OA using my eldritch blast in 4th ed? More importantly isn't there a means of doing this at low level (say level 7)?

Further, I miss the eldritch blast augmentation that exists in 3.5, are there no means of augmenting it in 4th ed (shape type and range specifically). I've already taken on the elemental pact but I'd like very much to be able to shoot a cone out with the Eldritch Blast or to get Eldritch spear.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks

3.5 doesn't allow ranged OA by default; all OA are melee attacks. As per the 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm). I'm not aware of a feat or power that would let a 3.5 warlock make OA with their blast, but I'm hardly an expert on it. Barring some explicit feat or power wording however, If you're been making OA with your eldritch blast you've been either using it wrong, or had a generous DM.

The only real change from 3.5 to 4e is that reach weapon cannot be used to make OA from non-adjacent squares without "threatening reach".

I will comb through the Compendium tomorrow for stuff you're looking for, but I'm doubtful such powers exist (especially at Heroic tier).

[Tegu8788]

I'm fairly certain there is no way to get a ranged OA in 4E. It is possible there is a feat that lets you do that, but I doubt it, especially before paragon.

As for altering your eldritch blast, I wouldn't be surprised of there were some feats that allowed you to alter it. The different power structure in this edition gives a spell aster far more flexibility than before. Pick an encounter power that's a cone, and one of a different range, and there you go. As a hybrid it will take a while to get a couple warlock encounters, but maybe a daily will suffice for now.

Would you be willing to post your build, more details about how you want to play, and any party details you can share? I'm an advocated of hybrids, and would be glad to help you make your build work better.

Edit: This (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx#) is a useful resource to look through. You'll get more info if you have a subscription, but I use the free parts well enough.

[vasharanpaladin]

There are not.

[Blackfang108]

Repeat to yourself: "This isn't 3.5, the Warlock has more to him than Eldritch Blast by default, and if I wish, I can reflavor all of my Warlock's attacks to be a augmented/shaped Eldritch Blast. If I wish."

After that sinks in, repeat to yourself: "I misread the OA wording in 3.5. BADLY."

[Anxe]

For level 7 you can refluff the warlock Howl of Doom encounter power as Eldritch Cone. Hell you could even refluff the rogue Cloud of Steel power as an Eldricth Cone.

As for the Eldritch Spear, a feat seems like the route to take there. I can't find one that explicitly increases the range of Eldritch Blast, but I did find Distant Shot in the PHB1, which removes the penalty for shooting in long range with a normal ranged weapon. Extending a little bit of logic here, a similar feat with the same prerequisites should allow you to double your Eldritch Blast's range. Unfortunately for you, Distant Shot is a Paragon level feat. Thus, Distant Eldritch Blast would also be a Paragon level feat. You can always just ask your DM though.

Also, if you really want to augment stuff, you may want to consider abandoning warlock entirely and just switching to a psionic class from the PHB3. You can still fluff it as a warlock with Eldritch Blast even though it's a psion with mind powers.

[NecroRebel]

OAs aren't that different if you just say that nobody can "threaten" squares that aren't adjacent to them. There are ways around that, actually, but they're relatively rare powers that work only for one round per encounter or one encounter per day. Regardless, OAs are melee attacks.

To be honest, I doubt that you'd be able to make attacks of opportunity in 3.5 at level ~7 anyway, and I'm sure you couldn't do it with an eldritch blast. I'm not sure how it's relevant that you can't in 4e if you also can't in 3.5...

Augmented eldritch blasts from 3.5 would simply take the form of higher-level powers in 4e. Eldritch Cone? That would just be a close blast power, like Howl of Doom or Spiteful Darts. Eldritch Spear? Simply a ranged power with a range larger than 10 (which there aren't any for the Warlock class in PHB1, but the point stands).



I think that ultimately you're getting confused with the differences between the systems because you're assuming that there's some continuity between the systems. There really isn't; 4e's mechanics were written from the ground up with only superficial similarities to 3.5's mechanics. It's a completely new system, so most of your experience will simply be inapplicable, same as if you tried to apply your 3.5 experience to, say, Vampire: the Masquerade.

And please don't think, "It's a different system? It must not be D&D!" That idea has been done to death, and is bloody stupid. There's exactly as much continuity between 2e and 3e as 3.5 and 4e, so if earlier editions are "truer" somehow, 3.x isn't actually D&D, either. And there's a similar level of continuity between AD&D and 2e, and between OD&D and AD&D, so basically you'd be arguing that a fake copy of a fake copy of a fake copy is truer than a fake copy of a fake copy of a fake copy of a fake copy.

[obryn]

Welp. Where can I start. I think you've set yourself on a bit of an uphill battle with a fairly bad race, using a class hybrid that frankly doesn't work together very well under 4e. Honestly, if you're looking to get competitive with the rest of your party, this really isn't the way to combine these classes together.

It looks like you just took something that worked well under 3.5 and went with it without doing the research, right? :smallwink:

Basically -what are you trying to do with this PC? Trying to replicate something that worked for you in 3.5 is a chancy proposition at best. I know this was a good combo there, but Rogue|Warlock is just not really great under 4e. Think "paladin/wizard" in 3.5 terms. You have both a weapon and an implement to keep up with, you need a minimum of 3 good stats (two of which share 1 defense) and you lose out on a lot of damage on your Rogue side.

About the nicest thing you can do here is snag Hybrid Talent for Shadow Walk, then pick up Hidden Sniper for near-permanent CA and Sneak Attack.

Something to consider if you want to do a melee/ranged character and stick with Warlock is going Warlock/Paladin. I know it sounds insane, but it's one of the post popular and potent hybrids out there. Or, go full Warlock and take Eldritch Strike instead of Eldritch Blast to operate at both ranges. Or, go with a Hexblade - you'll get your melee and ranged options, have a decent OA, and work pretty effectively. And it's a simpler class while you get your feet wet with 4e.

As for your specific questions...

(1) Using a ranged basic attack for opportunity attacks can happen, but usually not for a Warlock. The most common way I know of is to grab an off-class paragon path like Sharpshooter (Ranger PP). A better bet if OAs are your focus is to grab Eldritch Strike instead of Eldritch Blast. For this character, since you likely have a melee weapon for the rogue side, this could work pretty well.

(2) Eldritch Blast mostly does what it does, and what it does is basically "be a longbow." The stuff you'd use to modify it isn't there, mostly. That's why you have Encounter and Daily powers.

-O

[Tegu8788]

It can be done, but the Paladin|Warlock is stronger. But the Rogue side can be useful. Focus purely on Cha warlock powers and any Rogue powers that uses Cha as a rider. A pact blade rapier fixes your weapon and implement issues. Rogue powers handle melee, Warlock for range, but keep an eye out for close spells, they can be handy.

Shade is a weak race because it lacks feat support. As a race it's fine, but there are very few race specific ways to augment it.unless you specifically want the shapeshifting, Drow or Half-Elf has better support.

Hybrids are not an easy way to make a superpowered build. Pure classes almost always outperform hybrids. The Rogue wants Dex, Str, and Cha, while the Warlock wants Cha, Con, and Int. Dump Wis is the only safe bet. As I said, Dex and Cha would be the most important. Another thing to remember, the striker features, they don't overlap. No sneak attack eldritch blast, no curse backstabbing. And you only get hybrid talent once, unless you throw away your PP.

[Xtomjames]

Actually Attacks of Opportunity in 3.5 state that it is a Threatened Enemy and no where in 3.5 STD does it say that it must be a melee attack (even though it suggests it, the wording in this case is obtuse actually and with point blank shot and the nature of the Eldritch blast in 3.5 one can make AoO with it and thus hit multiple targets with it). Which means that in 3.5 one can do an AoO with range. I've been playing it and GMing it since before high school (just turned 26 an hour and a half ago).

In any case my build is hardly optimized and I don't exactly feel like posting it right now, I'm thinking of going and revamping it so it's a warlock seeker hybrid instead. To gain the seeker 16 level feature to use with OA and my eldritch blast.

On a different note, the Eldritch Blast is severely hampered in 4th ed, and no as far as I've read there aren't really any augmentations that can be done to the eldritch blast, except for the Elemental pact. Even then there aren't any cone blasts or ranged blasts beyond 10 squares. As a hybrid I'm also limited in the features I have access too (makes me with they'd just left Gestalt character classing in the game).

[Kurald Galain]

The simple solution is to take Eldritch Strike instead of Eldritch Blast.

[Tegu8788]

I believe you may be severly overestimating the effect of OAs in 4E. I think the updated version of what you want are immediate interrupt powers. When a specific action is taken, it can trigger an off turn attack, a nice bonus for a striker. Eldritch Strike makes for an excellent OA, and I'd wager there are some tasty Rogue options to handle enemies nearby. Ranged OAs aren't really something you need to worry about. Bursts and blasts will hit multiple enemies, but I don't know of any that happen off turn.

By the time you are level 16, you should have collect enough encounter and daily powers that you should be focused on using your at-will powers more than a couple times in combat. If you're fighting at range, then you won't be needing to make OAs.

As it has been said, forget trying to convert something in 3.5 to 4. At best, things have similar names. Now that EVERYONE has at-will powers, many of the Eldritch Blast shticks have changed. Specialized blast variants are now called Encounter powers. You get to use each power EVERY single encounter if you like. This means, at level one, your current character can use three different powers every single fight.

Figure out which range you would prefer to focus on. It's harder to build a character that can fight at all ranges. Focus Warlock for range, or Rogue for melee. I'd suggest melee because of Rogue weapon powers and Warlock close bursts and blasts.

[dariathalon]

You may want to reread that section of the SRD again. It specifically says "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack..." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#makinganAttackofOpportuni ty). Either you've misread this in the past or somewhere along the line you've house ruled otherwise.

But yes, eldritch blast is less powerful than it had been previously. That's because warlock's get other powers to fall back on. The warlock in 4e works a lot differently than in previous editions. Everything does. Honestly, it doesn't seem to me like you're giving 4e much of a chance to shine on its own. It isn't 3.5. Many things are better, some are worse, but mostly it's just different and spending all your time thinking of the differences as problems robs you of a lot of the fun. For me (and I think for many players) part of the fun of playing a new system (which in a lot of ways 4e is) is in the experimentation. Have fun with it! :smallsmile:

If I were you I'd drop the hybrid idea all together (at least for now). Hybrids are not like the gestalt you were used to. They don't necessarily make a character more powerful, like gestalt did. In fact, they usually end up with a less powerful character unless you are very careful in creation.

Edit: I just had one more thought to add. Actually, it might be good for you to move away from a warlock or anything else that you've played a lot in 3.5. Maybe try a class that didn't exist in that edition or one that focuses a lot on doing things that you couldn't normally do. Maybe a warlord to grant attacks? Seeker actually isn't that bad either since you brought that up, because you don't have a 3.5 frame of reference for it. It'll help you get used to 4e without constantly comparing back to 3.5.

[The New Bruceski]

Probably not a good idea to make a hybrid as your first character. It's basically pulling all the safeguards off of the character classes that aim them all at "competent" power levels, but you're much more likely to wind up with a mess than some power combination. Class abilities are built to work best with themselves, not other classes. If you want the flavor of a class dip, take a look at multiclassing.

As for the Seven Fates Archer lv16 power (can use a ranged basic attack instead of a MBA when opponent triggers an OA, which is still only gonna be triggered by adjacent guys), it's an example of working with the class. The Seeker gets a selection of powers with "can be used as a RBA" notes, so you're going to be able to throw things stronger than Eldrich Blast.

[Fallbot]

On a different note, the Eldritch Blast is severely hampered in 4th ed, and no as far as I've read there aren't really any augmentations that can be done to the eldritch blast, except for the Elemental pact. Even then there aren't any cone blasts or ranged blasts beyond 10 squares. As a hybrid I'm also limited in the features I have access too (makes me with they'd just left Gestalt character classing in the game).

As others have pointed out, in 4E Eldrich Blast does not work the same way as it did in 3.5. It cannot be enhanced a huge amount because it is not supposed to be. That's what Encounter Powers are for. If you enjoy the fluff of just using one type of attack but enhanced in various ways, take Encounter powers that can be refluffed as sculpted Eldrich Blasts and use them instead. Trying to upgrade an At-Will to that extent is just going to lead to frustration and an underperforming character.

If you try to apply 3.5 assumptions to 4E, you are going to be very disappointed, and not have a whole lot of fun. It's a different game, and enjoyable in it's own right, but it cannot effectively replicate 3.5 strategies, and does not try to.

[Yora]

4th Edition is a completely different game.

[tcrudisi]

Wow, guys. OP, I'm going to answer your question, but I just read through 84 posts of "OA's don't work like that in 3.5" and "don't play a hybrid unless you know what you are doing." Both of those are very true, but how about we help him improve his OA?

Okay, first I'm going to start with the basic ways to improve your OA. These don't work with Eldritch Blast, but they do help.

Melee Training.
Bracers of Mental Might.
Helm of Opportunity.
Arms of War item set.
Boar Tusk Helm.
Strikebacks.
Babau Gauntlets.

There might be others, but I only looked through Hands, Head and Arms as those were the most likely to have something good.

Now, how to make Eldritch Blast an OA? It's tough. Very tough. As others have said, at this level, it's almost impossible. Eldritch Strike really is a better choice. But you do have an option, though it's a terrible one. You've been warned.

Get an ally to take 4 items from the Arms of War item set and you can use Eldritch Blast as an OA once a day.

Told you it was bad.

You did say you were a hybrid Rogue, so take a look at the Babau Gloves as that is your best way of getting a good OA.

And now that I've said that, I'll jump in and do what I criticized others for earlier. Re-create the character. Hybrids are notoriously under-powered and for good reason. A new player should never, ever, ever play a hybrid because all they will do is make their character weaker than everyone else. 4e is very well balanced, but they put in the hybrid option for more experienced players who can get more flexibility out of the system without breaking it. For a beginner? It just ends up with them greatly weakening themselves and getting no benefit from it. Hybrids are something to be avoided until you've played 4e for at least a few months and probably even a year. You will do infinitely better by either playing a straight Rogue or a straight Warlock.

There, I've said my piece. Good luck.

[obryn]

In any case my build is hardly optimized and I don't exactly feel like posting it right now, I'm thinking of going and revamping it so it's a warlock seeker hybrid instead. To gain the seeker 16 level feature to use with OA and my eldritch blast.
I'm kind of curious - why are you so focused on getting OAs with your Eldritch Blast? What are you looking to gain from that?

And what do you want out of a hybrid PC? Single-classed PCs are a lot more viable in 4e than in 3.5.


On a different note, the Eldritch Blast is severely hampered in 4th ed, and no as far as I've read there aren't really any augmentations that can be done to the eldritch blast, except for the Elemental pact. Even then there aren't any cone blasts or ranged blasts beyond 10 squares. As a hybrid I'm also limited in the features I have access too (makes me with they'd just left Gestalt character classing in the game).
No, Eldritch Blast is nothing like the 3.5 Eldritch Blast. Keep in mind, though, that in 3.5, that was really 90% of the Warlock's shtick.

In 4e, Eldritch Blast is just the power you use when the Warlord gives you a free Ranged Basic Attack. Your 3.5 Warlock didn't have the various Encounter and Daily attacks, curse damage, shadow walk, or anything else of that nature.

-O

[Sipex]

Indeed, you need to approach character creation with a different mindset. Instead of thinking "How do I replicate this build/effect?" you need to ask yourself "What can I do with these options?" and create your own gimmick and build from the ground up.

[Ashdate]

Actually Attacks of Opportunity in 3.5 state that it is a Threatened Enemy and no where in 3.5 STD does it say that it must be a melee attack (even though it suggests it, the wording in this case is obtuse actually and with point blank shot and the nature of the Eldritch blast in 3.5 one can make AoO with it and thus hit multiple targets with it). Which means that in 3.5 one can do an AoO with range. I've been playing it and GMing it since before high school (just turned 26 an hour and a half ago).

If you've been allowing ranged attacks to make attacks of opportunity in 3.5, it's because you've houseruled it as such. The 3.5 SRD is quite clear that only melee attacks are allowed by default. I've put everything behind this spoiler that is relevant:

From the SRD (emphasis mine):

Threatened Squares

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

...

Making an Attack of Opportunity

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.

If you still don't believe me, you can go ask on the D&D 3.5 Board here.

As for using Eldritch Blast as an opportunity attack, I've looked through character builder and the compendium and came up with something that might work for you, although it requires being a particular race:


Reaper's Touch: Requires you to be a Shadar-Kai; Your Eldritch Blast gains a range of Melee touch in addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee basic attack. (Dragon #372).


Shadar-Kai don't get a bonus to Charisma, so they're not great Warlocks, but it'll get the job done for you.

[Sipex]

I don't know Shadar-kai too well, but also remember, Warlocks can use Con as their primary stat as well.

Although having the additional +2 bonus to your primary skill isn't absolutely necessary anyways as long as you make sure to boost it (and your attack rolls) through the other means supplied to you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm fairly certain there is no way to get a ranged OA in 4E.

I already mentioned this in the Q&A thread (when I recommended this thread get started), but I'll repeat it here for the record: yes, there is a way. Druid's At-Will power Fire Hawk will allow you to perform ranged OAs.

It does not apply to Xtomjames wishes, but it can be done.

Grey Wolf

[Badgerish]

There is also (I'm pretty sure) a way for Paragon-level Rangers to be able to make OAs with a bow (but you still only threaten adjacent squares), and to get OAs when someone attacks your beast companion.

[obryn]

I already mentioned this in the Q&A thread (when I recommended this thread get started), but I'll repeat it here for the record: yes, there is a way. Druid's At-Will power Fire Hawk will allow you to perform ranged OAs.

It does not apply to Xtomjames wishes, but it can be done.

Grey Wolf
That's not quite the case... You don't get a ranged OA. But if the target does something which would provoke an OA, you get to make the power's secondary attack against it. Which is an opportunity action.

A fine distinction, I know, but a pretty important one. That secondary attack doesn't get improved by anything which specifically improves OAs, and you're locked into using the Fire Hawk secondary attack for it.


There is also (I'm pretty sure) a way for Paragon-level Rangers to be able to make OAs with a bow (but you still only threaten adjacent squares), and to get OAs when someone attacks your beast companion.
Yep, the Sharpshooter PP gets this as a feature.

-O

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's not quite the case... You don't get a ranged OA. But if the target does something which would provoke an OA, you get to make the power's secondary attack against it. Which is an opportunity action.

A fine distinction, I know, but a pretty important one. That secondary attack doesn't get improved by anything which specifically improves OAs, and you're locked into using the Fire Hawk secondary attack for it.

Yes, I know. But you don't need to squint too much to consider it a ranged OA. And it is a first level at-will, so you can't really expect much of it. It is very much a case of Potahto-Potayto.

From the PoV of the most basic definition of OA, you get to hit someone at a range when he moves more than a square or performs a ranged attack. Yes, it comes with certain limitations, the most important of which is "you must first hit him with this weak At-will", but given the OP's dislike of 4E, all the other distinctions (including lack of feat support, which is the most damming issue) are probably irrelevant.

Grey Wolf

[obryn]

Yeah, but if you're looking to specifically OA with Eldritch Blast for whatever vague reason, Fire Hawk won't help. :smallsmile: That's why the distinction is important here.

I have a druid in my group with Fire Hawk. It's a solid power.

-O

[Alienist]

Yeah, but if you're looking to specifically OA with Eldritch Blast for whatever vague reason, Fire Hawk won't help. :smallsmile: That's why the distinction is important here.


In your rush to nitpick, you seem to have overlooked that the poster you are replying to already pointed that out in their original post about that power.

Anyway...

I think that the original poster will find that 4th edition warlocks are enormously improved over 3.5 warlocks. They have much better splat-book support and item support too.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that instead of being 2-3 tiers worse than the main caster-type classes, they are almost on a par with them! Amazing!!!

Perhaps he is over-emphasising Eldritch Blast because under 3.5 the warlock was so very much a one trick pony. Now in 4.0 the warlock has just as many tricks as every other class.

Advantages of 4.0 over 3.5 :
(1) In the first round of combat, some of the other players might actually get to have a turn before your side wins
(2) That character you spent months playing isn't going to get disintegrated because of one bad d20 roll
(3) No diplomancers
(4) More rules consistency across books and better errata, fewer opportunities for abuse
(5) 3.5 breaks down pretty quickly at epic level (and arguably much sooner)

Disadvantages of 4.0 over 3.5 :
(1) Combats might take over half an hour
(2) Even if you spend months tweaking your character you'll never be 10x as powerful as the rest of the party combined
(3) You actually have to talk to NPCs instead of just mind-raping them with a couple of d20 rolls before getting to the good bits - what a drag
(4) Less opportunities for 'creative' build ideas
(5) 4.0 breaks down pretty quickly at epic level (and arguably much sooner)

[Xtomjames]

In your rush to nitpick, you seem to have overlooked that the poster you are replying to already pointed that out in their original post about that power.

Anyway...

I think that the original poster will find that 4th edition warlocks are enormously improved over 3.5 warlocks. They have much better splat-book support and item support too.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that instead of being 2-3 tiers worse than the main caster-type classes, they are almost on a par with them! Amazing!!!

Perhaps he is over-emphasising Eldritch Blast because under 3.5 the warlock was so very much a one trick pony. Now in 4.0 the warlock has just as many tricks as every other class.

Advantages of 4.0 over 3.5 :
(1) In the first round of combat, some of the other players might actually get to have a turn before your side wins
(2) That character you spent months playing isn't going to get disintegrated because of one bad d20 roll
(3) No diplomancers
(4) More rules consistency across books and better errata, fewer opportunities for abuse
(5) 3.5 breaks down pretty quickly at epic level (and arguably much sooner)

Disadvantages of 4.0 over 3.5 :
(1) Combats might take over half an hour
(2) Even if you spend months tweaking your character you'll never be 10x as powerful as the rest of the party combined
(3) You actually have to talk to NPCs instead of just mind-raping them with a couple of d20 rolls before getting to the good bits - what a drag
(4) Less opportunities for 'creative' build ideas
(5) 4.0 breaks down pretty quickly at epic level (and arguably much sooner)

Except that Warlock was never a one trick pony in 3.5 and in 4.0 it's lost it's edge, it is by and large the worst class shift I've ever seen. The forth ed warlock isn't anywhere near on par with other classes, even with an optimized build a warlock loses to a wizard or any melee class. Even with the at-will eldrtich blast, which you may not get if you choose a different power (as a hybrid in my case) you don't have many options for augmenting it to damage like the 3.5 warlock did. All the 4th ed warlock is is a dumbed down wizard or sorc and that's the end of it. It's neither unique nor even in my express opinion functional in a party, it doesn't even meet the requirement of "support" character. At least, had OA been both ranged and melee it'd have had some sort of functionality, but with OAs being revamped (and as I've argued before in 3.5 there is AoO that do exist via general feat for ranged characters) that's not even a viable option with the rogue warlock hybrid I have currently. In short my character is no longer viable until higher levels and only if I multi-class into Seeker. Further the limitations on powers and the functionality of at wills versus encounters versus dailies really dumbs down the game play and cripples any real creativity behind the character development. If anything the entire 4th ed system makes each class a "one trick pony" type class structure. Simply it's ridiculous.

[Reverent-One]

*Shrugs*

I've never seen any real problems with the warlock class in use, it provides both damage and control elements in combat. I certainly wouldn't say it isn't functional. Perhaps you made some mistakes in the hybirdizing process, it's a bit trickier than making a single class 4e character.

[NecroRebel]

Except that Warlock was never a one trick pony in 3.5 and in 4.0 it's lost it's edge, it is by and large the worst class shift I've ever seen. The forth ed warlock isn't anywhere near on par with other classes, even with an optimized build a warlock loses to a wizard or any melee class.I beg to differ. Warlocks deal damage on par with the other strikers and have similar defenses. They're not defenders, but they're not meant to be, so the fact that they don't have defender-tier defenses or health is unimportant. It doesn't have the multi-target control of a Wizard, sure, but it will pretty much always deal higher single-target damage, and that's what it's meant to do - it's a striker! There are single-class warlocks in the running for damage-per-round kings at every level measured, so saying that it isn't on par with high optimization simply shows that you are misinformed.


Even with the at-will eldrtich blast, which you may not get if you choose a different power (as a hybrid in my case) you don't have many options for augmenting it to damage like the 3.5 warlock did.The 4e Warlock can't deal as much damage as a 3.5 Warlock, sure... But neither can any other class. It's a different system, and acceptable damage numbers differ. In 3.5, if you're dealing 50 damage per round at level 5, that's pretty good, but 50 damage at level 10 is low. In 4e, 50 damage per round is good at level 30.

There are ways to boost Eldritch Blast's damage - implements, lots of feats, higher stats, some magic items - but since the expected numbers are lower, so are the possible numbers. This is something that I can honestly say 4e does better than 3.x; the creators intended a particular range of damage to be dealt by a character at any given level, and characters tend to stay within it! It isn't meant to be possible to kill a monster in one hit (unless it's a minion), and it almost always isn't.


All the 4th ed warlock is is a dumbed down wizard or sorc and that's the end of it. It's neither unique nor even in my express opinion functional in a party, it doesn't even meet the requirement of "support" character.And I'm sure you played a 4e wizard or sorcerer before making this statement, I'm sure? Oh, and you tried taking the "Ritual Caster" feat, which warlocks are reasonably well-suited for and which enables them to use all of the utility rituals that a wizard can (and which a sorcerer can't unless they spend a feat on Ritual Caster)?

The "support" character archetype doesn't really exist in 4e anyway. The closest thing to it would be the leader role, which the warlock isn't. What more?


In short my character is no longer viable until higher levels and only if I multi-class into Seeker....Because you're a hybrid, which as you've been told several times is a bad idea from an optimization standpoint unless you're after something very specific, which you're not. What more?


Further the limitations on powers and the functionality of at wills versus encounters versus dailies really dumbs down the game play and cripples any real creativity behind the character development. If anything the entire 4th ed system makes each class a "one trick pony" type class structure. Simply it's ridiculous.

"Dumbing down" the game play I'll conditionally agree with - it's intended for, and successful at, narrowing the differences between the power levels of various classes. 3.x had a colossal problem with power discrepancies between different classes at mid to high levels of optimization, to the extent where spellcasters were the only classes really worth taking. By unifying the mechanics behind every class, 4e made it possible - and I do mean "possible," not just "easier" - to ensure that no class strayed outside a narrow power band. This came at the cost of making it so that the mechanics of every class were very similar (though I wouldn't agree that they're all the same, as they play quite differently).

"Cripples any real creativity behind the character development," though? No. I can make as many character concepts in 4e as you can in 3.5, and just as many character concepts will not have a perfect fit in both systems. Any concept I want to make a mechanical character for, I can, and I can make a concept for any mechanical character. If you must have crunch before you can make fluff, your own creativity is stifled, so don't blame the system. If you start with fluff and have sufficient knowledge of available options, you can make crunch to fit suitably. You're simply inexperienced, and your ignorance is coloring your judgment.

Play the system more and learn it better, and you'll find that your "woes" disappear. I won't say that you'll come to like 4e, but you're currently trying to prove that something that is simply different is inferior, and that is just wrong.

[theNater]

I've gotta ask: what is going on in your party that makes you feel you need to Eldritch Blast everything that moves in order to meaningfully participate? Are the monsters all trying to run circles around your fighter or something?

[Kurald Galain]

...so what do you want, exactly? Do you want advice on how to build a 4E warlock? Advice on how to build a high-damage striker? A list of differences between 3E and 4E? Some beginner's charbuilding advice (which tends to be "don't make a hybrid as your first character, really")? Or do you want a thread where everybody explains why they love or have a particular system?

Because we can do any of that. But mixing them in one thread may get confusing.

[The New Bruceski]

The hybrid rules in the book even have a sidebar that says "don't use these unless you're really, really sure."

[Badgerish]

1) What are you trying to gain from the Rogue part of this hybrid? Sneak attack? special rogue stabbery powers? ability to disable locks/traps?

If it's the locks/traps ability, anyone trained in Thievery and a decent Dex can do that (and Thievery is on the Warlock skill list, isn't it?)

If it's the sneak attack or stabbing powers... then I think you are out of luck, as they don't combo well at all with Eldritch blast.
If you do want a Warlock who is better at stabbing people, Hexblades do fit that bill and Fey pact/Lady of the Well pact can multi-class rogue for sneak attack (Dex secondary and light blades)


2) You mention wanting to get OAs at range... what do you think you *should* be able to punish enemies for? I'm trying to think how this would work in 3.5

Do you mean waiting for an enemy in melee with you to provoke an OA, then using Eldritch Cone/Chain to attack multiple foes?
Do you mean getting an OA on anyone who moves/casts a spell in your Eldritch Blast range? Because that should never happen.

4ed Warlocks do have options for punishing/controlling enemies though:
Dire Radiance (at-will from Star Pact Warlock) can punish an enemy you hit for moving towards you.
Hellish Rebuke (at-will from Infernal Pact Warlock) can punish an enemy you hit when you are damaged.


3) you mention improving your Eldritch Blast over time. 4ed doesn't work that way (in the same way melee/archery Full Attacking doesn't upgrade the same way it does in 3.5). Instead, encounter/daily powers represent much of the more-power growth of a character. Consider picking encounter/daily powers that resemble Eldritch Blast and refluff them as being Eldritch Blast, but empowered in a limited manner.

[Fallbot]

Even with the at-will eldrtich blast, which you may not get if you choose a different power (as a hybrid in my case) you don't have many options for augmenting it to damage like the 3.5 warlock did.

I fear you're still missing the point. 4E Warlocks are not SUPPOSED to augment their eldrich blasts. Them being unable to do so effectively is not a problem with the system, because it's not part of the system. Eldrich Blast is a fallback option to be used after encounter powers are expended, or if they're ever granted a ranged basic attack. If it helps, mentally rename the 4E Eldritch Blast to Warlock Space Laser, and let go of the assumption that it functions like, or is meant to function like the power of the same name from 3.5.

You need to accept that you're playing a completely different game and let go of your 3.5 based assumptions, or your woes will continue indefinitely.

[obryn]

The forth ed warlock isn't anywhere near on par with other classes, even with an optimized build a warlock loses to a wizard or any melee class. Even with the at-will eldrtich blast, which you may not get if you choose a different power (as a hybrid in my case) you don't have many options for augmenting it to damage like the 3.5 warlock did.
OK - so tell us. What do you want from the class? What are you trying to achieve with your Warlock/X Hybrid?

If it's damage, we can help. If it's debilitating effects on your enemies, we can help; the Warlock's good at those. If it's a specific set of tricks you learned for the 3.5 version of the class, odds are we can't help because those just don't exist and almost every spell you have is better than Eldritch Blast now.

I'll repeat - Eldritch Blast is your spell of last resort under 4e. Every other thing you can do is going to be a better choice in most situations. This doesn't mean your Warlock sucks; it means your Warlock has other options now.


At least, had OA been both ranged and melee it'd have had some sort of functionality, but with OAs being revamped (and as I've argued before in 3.5 there is AoO that do exist via general feat for ranged characters) that's not even a viable option with the rogue warlock hybrid I have currently.
Why in the world are you considering this the keystone of an effective character?


In short my character is no longer viable until higher levels and only if I multi-class into Seeker. Further the limitations on powers and the functionality of at wills versus encounters versus dailies really dumbs down the game play and cripples any real creativity behind the character development. If anything the entire 4th ed system makes each class a "one trick pony" type class structure. Simply it's ridiculous.
I think you're running into a simple problem here. You don't like 4e - which is fine - but if I don't miss my guess, that made it so you didn't even want to do the basic legwork when making a character to figure out how the structure of the game works. And you don't seem to want to learn, now, either; even though there's a good half-dozen or more people offering help, you're stuck on this one trick that you used under 3.5 and upset that it doesn't translate directly into 4e.

We can help you make a fun, effective character. It won't be exactly what you did under 3.5, but it will be more effective than the poor hybrid you have right now.

-O

[Ashdate]

stuff

Xtomjames, I want to have an heart to heart with you, because I think you and me (and possibly a lot of the poster here) have started off on the wrong foot.

4e is not 3.5e. Others have said this before, but I wanted to make sure you understand this. Comparing the 3.5 Warlock to the 4e Warlock is comparing apples to oranges. We can't help you make a 3.5 Warlock any more than we could help you make a 3.5 Fighter, or a 3.5 Wizard. They're completely different systems. It's akin to you jumping on a World of Darkness forum, and complaining that you can't make a 3.5 Sorcerer because the rules for casting spells and Paradox in that system hinder you.

So please, don't ask us to turn 4e into the 3.5 game you love and remember, because we can't. I don't mean that we refuse to, I mean that we literally can't. If that is a problem for you, the only thing I can tell you is that maybe you shouldn't play in this 4e game. It sounds like it's only going to disappoint you.

If, however, you want to give 4e a fair shake, then you need to look upon the system with fresh eyes. I'm more than willing to help you create a character that fits a concept that you're aiming for (and I'm sure, quite a number of the posters here are too). We can't make a 3.5 character with 4e (any more than we could make a World of Darkness, a RIFTS*, or a Shadowrun character), but we can point you in the direction of feats/powers/abilities that can help you.

So here's two options for you Xtomjames:

1) Declare 4e unfit to play. Don't play it. Rather than spit and claw at each other, we can part amicably.
2) Take the 4e system for what it is, and let myself and others on this board show you some different options you can persue to make a character you like.

I want (but will not force you) to choose 2.

*ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha