Making a Spellsword ... Need Some Advice...

[Tathum]

Playing in a friend's game with minimal RP and high level of combat and the like...

Decided to make a Spellsword, Fighter / Mage that can blend both together at level 7+ (wear armor and still cast well while wielding metal weapons). Going Greatsword, no armor, keeping Mage Armor up. Curious what feats and spells to pick others would recommend. My current plan is:

SPent Skill points and am starting with an 18 Strength and Intelligence with a fair Con / Dex to boot.

Level 1 / Wizard 1: Collegiate Wizard / Power Attack (Using a staff to start - Specializing in Necromancy and Prohibit Enchantment and Illusion)
Level 2 / Fighter 1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Level 3 / Wizard 2: Practiced Spellcaster

This is where I am now, I typically keep Mage Armor up and swing away. Occasional True Strike, Ray of Enfeeblement, or Monster Summoning (though it only lasts 3 rounds at this level) to help.

Eventually, I'm thinking of getting Extend Spell, Sudden Empower, and Combat Reflexes. I'll do two more Wizard levels and 1 more FIghter before that will qualify my for Spellsword at level 7.

Planned spells will be Bull's Strength, Haste, Keen Edge and Sonic Weapon for obvious reasons, and then Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Scorching Ray, and Brutal Seething Surge for when I'm finally able to cast through my sword. I find Necromancy to be the best pairing with Spellsword, the touch spells work very well with the multiple attacks I'll have.

Good plan? Other classes better? Ideas for spells? Ideas for feats?

[Togath]

A duskblade or magus is probably what your looking for, or perhaps a bard

[killianh]

Human Paragon 3/ Wizard 3/ Eldritch Knight 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Archmage 1 / Eldritch Knight 6 would be a nice build, or human paragon could be switched for fighter
Feats Needed - Militia , 2 spell focuses, Arcane devotee (War) , skill focus - spellcraft

[eggs]

Know that the Spellsword prestige class isn't as mechanically awesome as some of its alternatives. It's completely playable, but past the first level, it's not great from an optimization perspective.

The tricks that can make it somewhat distinct typically involve channeling no-save area spells like Antimagic Field, Dispel or Sleet Storm. They typically mean pretty gimmicky characters without a whole lot of endurance. They can be fun, but straightclassed Duskblade and Magus builds can usually cover the same concept, but better, until high levels and are much easier to put together/play.

But if Wizard casting is what you're into, it sounds like your build might be better suited by Jade Phoenix Mage from Tome of Battle. JPM gets a mechanic to burn spells for weapon damage (essentially what's going to be happening with the damage spells you plan on channeling, but without the 3/day limit) and a stance that empowers blasting spells each encounter, rather than Sudden Empower's 1/day.

[bobthe6th]

might take fighter first level, as it is better at that level...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fighter1/Wizard5/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion is probably the best way to go.

Spellsword's first level is great... advances both BAB and spellcasting. Also gives you a 10% discount on ASF. After that... 1/2 spellcasting progression really hurts you.

Abjurant Champion is a 5 level class that is full BAB and full spellcasting, with strong class abilities (auto-quicken Abjuration spells! Increase effectiveness of the Shield spell!).

Also, from a power perspective, banning illusion *REALLY* hurts you. Mirror Image is a fantastic defensive spell, and Greater Mirror Image is one of the best.

[Tathum]

Did not expect so many replies so fast!

Off to look up Abjurant Champion!

And as for giving up Illusion, I was thinking either that or Evocation. But being able to add 4d6 damage for 3 attacks with a Scorching Ray or 1d8+10 damage for 10 strikes with a Brutal Seething Surge was too good to pass up for a few defensive spells.

And the fact that I get Stoneskin, Mage Armor, and Protection from Energy as alternatives felt a bit better. Especially when mixed with Mithral or Entropium Full Plate in later levels.

[killianh]

make sure that whatever the final build is it has spellsword 1(and no more)\Abjurant Champion 5 and most of the rest should be rather easy.

for your spells I would suggest an even amount of self buffs, a good mix of save or sucks, and a light seasoning of damage spells to channel

[Tathum]

Looking over Abjursnt Champion...

I'm not all that impressed. Bonus feats that improve abjuration spells are easily replaced by the Spellsword's ability to wear heavier armor. Eventually if I have access to Mithral Full-Plate that I can enchant, that'll be upwards of +12-+15 AC.

The level 4 bonus feat, the ability to burn spells to get one round of a bonus is beaten out by Arcane Strike. Seriously, I'd rather burn an unneeded Cone of Cold to get +5 hit and do an additional 5d4 damage per swing for 5 rounds against a single stud mob than get a single stat boost for 1 round.

Besides, those saying to just do 1 level of Spellsword, I'm mainly doing it so I can get ChannelBlade. You don't get that ability until 4th and it doesn't max out until 8th. When I get that, I can channel Chill Touch as an easiest and simplest example and do an extra 1d6 negative energy damage and drain strength for 10+ hits (not just swings). 4d6 extra damage for 3 hits (not just swings) with a Scorching Ray with no saving throw. Enervation, Vampiric Touch, and eventually channelling a Disintegrate that will stay in my greatsword until I successfully hit with it.

It looks like the only reason to take Abjurant Champion is for the +1 Casting per level. Is there any other good reason to take it?

[killianh]

It looks like the only reason to take Abjurant Champion is for the +1 Casting per level. Is there any other good reason to take it?

That's all the reason you need. What does a true gish need? full BAB, Full casting to get those awesome spells, and the d10s for health are as good as it gets. The free extend and quicken (quicken being one of the best metamagic feats in the game) for an entire school of magic and other class features are just icing on the cake.

When building a gish you want to focus on trying to lose a little as possible from both the magic side and the melee side. Abjurant Champion gives you fighter health and BAB, full casting, and a nice array of other abilities. Free action spells+full attack+already channelled spell=winning. That's why most of the suggestions have been AB 5\SS 1 in some variety

[CreganTur]

Pathfinder's Magus base class sounds like it will do what you want. It has 3/4 BAB, but a much larger spell list than the Duskblade (PHB II and full BAB but it's universally agreed that their spell list is terrible).

[Psyren]

I wouldn't call Duskblade terrible - they're still T3 after all - but definitely not as good as the Magus even with the BAB difference.



It looks like the only reason to take Abjurant Champion is for the +1 Casting per level. Is there any other good reason to take it?

You mean that's not enough of a reason? :smallconfused: Losing caster levels means your spells are weaker, you get them slower, they're easier to counter/dispel etc. And until you get that Mithril Full Plate and SS 9, you may as well not cast at all due to the failure chance.

[CigarPete]

That's all the reason you need. What does a true gish need? full BAB, Full casting to get those awesome spells, and the d10s for health are as good as it gets. The free extend and quicken (quicken being one of the best metamagic feats in the game) for an entire school of magic and other class features are just icing on the cake.
This is the only reason you need. Abjurant Champ is the best prestige class for a gish.

Incidentally, the quicken ability will only let you do up to level 3 spells at 5th level, but it is still worth it for the free extend. Only having to cast Mind Blank every other day = Priceless.

[Tathum]

I wouldn't call Duskblade terrible - they're still T3 after all - but definitely not as good as the Magus even with the BAB difference.



You mean that's not enough of a reason? :smallconfused: Losing caster levels means your spells are weaker, you get them slower, they're easier to counter/dispel etc. And until you get that Mithril Full Plate and SS 9, you may as well not cast at all due to the failure chance.

But with the Practiced Spellcaster Feat (which I would unfortunately have to take twice to get the full benefit), I'd still be casting those lower level spells as if I were a 19th level Wizard when I hit level 20. That's assuming I go - F4 / W6 / SS10.

I understand I won't be able to cast Finger of Death or Mage's Sword (which would be nice), unless we go into epic levels. But with this build I still get a BAB of 17 and the ability to Disintegrate someone with a successful sword strike if I cast it into my Greatsword.

And at level 11, I'll be hitting for an additional 4d6 damage per successful strike with just Scorching Ray channeled. Chill Touch and Sonic Weapon always up, Vampiric Touch, Scorching Ray, Enervation, and Shocking Grasp for burst ... Almost all of these spells don't allow a saving throw and with 3 attacks by level 14, it's a healthy amount of guaranteed damage. In the build, the lower level spells would be my bread and butter; reliable and consistent damage.

With my Fighter feats, I plan on sticking with single opponent damaging ones (Power Attack, Weapon Focus ... probably Improved Critical and MAYBE Weapon Specialization). On the mage side, Spell Penetration would probably be a good idea and maybe spell focus either Evocation or Necromancy, I believe most of the spells I'm sticking with don't allow saving throws, so they may not even be needed.

But still, losing Spell Channeling and the ability to wear heavier armor seems to be much worse of an idea than losing the ability to cast level 7 and 8 spells.

[CreganTur]

I wouldn't call Duskblade terrible - they're still T3 after all - but definitely not as good as the Magus even with the BAB difference.


No, no- I meant that their spell list is terrible. They have an extremely limited number of touch spells... for a class that's all about touch spells. That's why Magus will always get the nod from me: because it has a superior spell list that adds many more options for touch spells and more tech spells as well.

[A_S]

But still, losing Spell Channeling and the ability to wear heavier armor seems to be much worse of an idea than losing the ability to cast level 7 and 8 spells.
No.

Spell Channeling isn't really all that good. You were planning on using it to add 4d6 damage by channeling Scorching Ray? Take a look at the Arcane Strike feat if you want to burn spell slots for extra melee damage.

The ability to wear heavy armor isn't good. By the time you're able to reduce ASF enough to wear plate, you'll be able to easily afford a Twilight Mithral Breastplate, only missing out on 3 points of AC (more than made up for by the +5 shield AC you get from Abjurant Champion).

Let's see what you might be able to do with those high level spellslots you'd be losing out on:
-Persistent Wraithstrike: All your attacks are touch attacks.
-Shapechange: Become anything, be awesome.
-Foresight, Moment of Prescience: Always act in the surprise round, always act first.
-Time Stop: Not buffed when the fight starts? No problem!
-Prismatic Sphere: Can't touch this.
-Mind Blank: Immunity to mind-affecting and all forms of divination.

Also, don't get Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, or Weapon Spec. 2 feats for +1 AB and +2 damage? Improved Initiative is a much better choice.

*edit* Also, you can't apply Practiced Spellcaster to the same casting class twice.

[Psyren]

But with the Practiced Spellcaster Feat (which I would unfortunately have to take twice to get the full benefit), I'd still be casting those lower level spells as if I were a 19th level Wizard when I hit level 20. That's assuming I go - F4 / W6 / SS10.

1) You're mistaken about how Practiced Spellcaster works - though you can take it multiple times, you can only apply it to a given class once. So your F4/W6/SS10 would have a maximum CL of 15, not 19.

2) Lower-level spells are weak because (a) their save DCs are lower and (b) they have damage caps.



And at level 11, I'll be hitting for an additional 4d6 damage per successful strike with just Scorching Ray channeled. Chill Touch and Sonic Weapon always up, Vampiric Touch, Scorching Ray, Enervation, and Shocking Grasp for burst ... Almost all of these spells don't allow a saving throw and with 3 attacks by level 14, it's a healthy amount of guaranteed damage. In the build, the lower level spells would be my bread and butter; reliable and consistent damage.

How are you full-attacking and channeling spells at the same time? It's a move action per use to prime your sword with a spell, leaving you with just a standard to swing, and each hit discharges it. And even if you hit, the target gets to make a saving throw, apply SR, energy resistance etc. as normal. And let's not forget that spell channeling is spell-like, meaning that if you do it in melee range you will provoke an AoO.

The truth is that your damage won't be far off from simply full-attacking. The Abjurant Champion may not be able to channel his damaging spells, but full-attacking means he gets 4x the strike damage instead (weapon damage, strength mod, power attack, enhancements on the weapon etc.) The Abjurant Champion also gets higher-level spells, gets them faster, and doesn't have to spend spell slots to add damage.

I'm just not seeing the benefit.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I had a reply much like A_S's typed out, but the gerbils who power my computer seem to have eaten it.

Since A_S was so thorough, I'll just add that that the Pathfinder magus get to wear heavy armor if it's really that important to you and that the D&D duskblade gets medium armor and heavy shields if you're so inclined. An abjurant champion with a swift, extended AC +9 Shield spell on top of some twilight armor would still be better for AC, but if you would prefer physical armor for some reason, duskblade or magus could do it. Both of these classes also get more spells of their highest level than your Wizard/Fighter/Spellsword build and get Disintegrate at that highest level.

[Tathum]

No.

Spell Channeling isn't really all that good. You were planning on using it to add 4d6 damage by channeling Scorching Ray? Take a look at the Arcane Strike feat if you want to burn spell slots for extra melee damage.

The ability to wear heavy armor isn't good. By the time you're able to reduce ASF enough to wear plate, you'll be able to easily afford a Twilight Mithral Breastplate, only missing out on 3 points of AC (more than made up for by the +5 shield AC you get from Abjurant Champion).

Let's see what you might be able to do with those high level spellslots you'd be losing out on:
-Persistent Wraithstrike: All your attacks are touch attacks.
-Shapechange: Become anything, be awesome.
-Foresight, Moment of Prescience: Always act in the surprise round, always act first.
-Time Stop: Not buffed when the fight starts? No problem!
-Prismatic Sphere: Can't touch this.
-Mind Blank: Immunity to mind-affecting and all forms of divination.

Also, don't get Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, or Weapon Spec. 2 feats for +1 AB and +2 damage? Improved Initiative is a much better choice.

*edit* Also, you can't apply Practiced Spellcaster to the same casting class twice.

I will grant you that missing out on Wraithstrike would be tasty, as a melee attacker that would be delicious, as well as a Foresight and Timestop if only to help cut down on duration loss on certain buff spells. But spells like Shapechange and Prismatic Sphere are either better for a pure Wizard without melee attacks who needs to become a dragon or needs stationary protection. Now I'm curious about picking up a few scrolls for Wraithstrike, though...

And I do plan on taking Arcane Strike as a feat, though I believe using Scorching Ray for 12d6 total extra damage (Spell stays channeled until all three rays are used in successful attacks) as opposed to the possibility of doing a total of an extra 12d4 damage (only if the attacks are successful during the two round duration that the Arcane Strike is functional when burning a Scorching Ray and assuming you have at least a BAB of 12 for 3 attacks a round). Also add in the fact that Scorching Ray has a chance to be a critical strike and I'll stick with burning any Summon Monster IV I don't plan on using that day.

I will rethink the Weapon Focus and such, I've always taken them as a straight Fighter, but they do pale when you don't have as many feats to choose from. In this certain case, would you think Spell Focus is a better choice? Most spells I'm gunning for don't allow a saving throw, anyway, but when I plan on swinging a Greatsword channeling Chill Touch, having a greater chance of sucking away a total of 15 STR may be a bit better. Though not by much.

And crap on the Practiced Spellcaster ... that is right, didn't count on that. That would put Wizard at 15th level with that build ... THAT ... is a bit of a bummer...

[eggs]

To be fair, you can prime the spell before the fight.

But the 3/day limit, starting at maybe level 11 is very limiting for all the CLs lost. For comparison, 3 levels Duskblade would get channeled Touch spells all day at 3 CL lost, compared to Fighter+Spellsword's 9.

And things like Spell Matrixed Smiting Empowered Combusts do about the same thing, to much more staggering effect (again, without the X/day problem) even before leaving the Wizard class.

[Tathum]

How are you full-attacking and channeling spells at the same time? It's a move action per use to prime your sword with a spell, leaving you with just a standard to swing, and each hit discharges it. And even if you hit, the target gets to make a saving throw, apply SR, energy resistance etc. as normal. And let's not forget that spell channeling is spell-like, meaning that if you do it in melee range you will provoke an AoO.

The truth is that your damage won't be far off from simply full-attacking. The Abjurant Champion may not be able to channel his damaging spells, but full-attacking means he gets 4x the strike damage instead (weapon damage, strength mod, power attack, enhancements on the weapon etc.) The Abjurant Champion also gets higher-level spells, gets them faster, and doesn't have to spend spell slots to add damage.

I'm just not seeing the benefit.

Channeling a touch attack would allow for multiple charges spent of successful strikes. Unless my DM would allow a full Chill Touch to discharge on one attack which would be ... (you take 15d6 negative energy damage with no saving throw and take an additional 15 STR damage) ... well, damn! But the spells stays until successfully used, it's not lost on a missed swing. This would mean being able to cast before combat and store it until needed for up to 24 hours.

Many of the spells I'm choosing don't allow Saving Throws (Chill Touch, Scorching Ray, Brutal Seething Surge, Sonic Weapon, Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, Ennervation)

As for AoO, with Maxed out Concentration and maybe even Combat Casting in the mix, Defensive Casting is not too difficult. Yes, I only get one attack that round, but the subsequent rounds still have the full attacks supplied. It's not like I only get to use that channeled spell for that round only.

And, I think my main problem with Abjurant Champion is that it only goes for 5 levels. If you complete the full gambit, you get half the BAB and the same amount of spell levels that Spellsword grants in it's full gambit of 10 levels. This means that whatever classes you choose after, you're either going to be losing out on BAB by not taking a melee oriented class or Wizard levels by not taking a casting oriented one ... meaning this leaves you with the same complaints that people are telling me about Spellsword in the first place by not having higher level spell slots or a sufficient BAB.

And I thought Abjurant Champion did have to burn spell slots to add damage in its 4th level bonus ability (which I still think pales in comparison to Arcane Strike). While a quickened Protection from Energy would be nice when a dragon pops up out of nowhere, I find the extended abjuration kind of take the point out of not having 99% of your protection spells up all the time anyway, making that quickened ability a bit unnecessary.

[A_S]

As a general rule, gish characters don't have the attribute points, feats, or class features needed to make spells with saving throws worth it, and they should use no-save spells (or, even better, buffs) instead. Excellent feats for gishes include:
-Arcane Strike
-Extend/Persistent spell
-Quicken Spell
-Power Attack
-Combat Casting (not actually good, but a very common prereq)
-Minor Shapeshift
-Improved Initiative
-Martial Study/Martial Stance for ToB abilities that would be useful to you
-Practiced Spellcaster
-Chain Spell (lets you buff your allies without using up a bajillion spell slots...everybody loves Haste, for instance)

As for the rest, I really, really think you're underestimating the power of high level spells. The MoP/Foresight combo is one of the biggest reasons wizards are so powerful at late levels. Persistent haste! Persistent Blink! Energy immunity! Wish (gishes need lots of attributes; get your inherent bonuses right here)! Polymorph Any Object! You said you might be using the Summon Monster line...have you taken a look at what kinds of things you can summon with Gate?!

[eggs]

This means that whatever classes you choose after, you're either going to be losing out on BAB by not taking a melee oriented class or Wizard levels by not taking a casting oriented one
Does your game have a 1-prestige class limit? Because that would be extremely relevant to this discussion. (Though that would probably just sub Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom for Abjurant Champ).

[A_S]

The other thing I think you might be underestimating is the importance of getting stuff early. You're actually going to be playing this character through the mid levels, right? The Abjurant Champion build Shneeky quoted finishes Abjurant Champion at level 12. At that level, it has 9 BAB, and casts spells as a level 11 Wizard, meaning:
-You can already cast True Seeing.
-Your hour/level Abjuration spells last all day with one casting
-Greater Magic Weapon is conferring a +3 enhancement bonus, and Greater Mighty Wallop is increasing your weapon damage by three size categories.
-You've just gotten your hands on Greater Dispel Magic
-You can buff yourself up with Greater Heroism
-You can have Contingency up to save you when things get rough.
-You have Overland Flight, meaning you never have to worry about being without a flight speed if something comes after you from the air.
-Outside of combat, you have access to Teleport, making travel simple for you and your entire party; you also have access to the ludicrously useful Contact Other Plane.

By contrast, the Spellsword build has BAB 9 and casts spells as a level 7 wizard. This means:
-Your hour/level spells wear off at inconvenient times.
-Your round/level spells don't even reliably last an entire combat.
-Even with Practiced Spellcaster, your caster level is lagging behind that of more dedicated casters, which hurts you when it comes to, for instance, Greater Magic Weapon.
-You can only teleport as far as Dimension Door lets you.
-If you use up your Fly spell in one fight, you probably can't use it again next fight.

Comparisons at other levels will reveal similar disparities: at level 17, if you finish the Abjurant Champion build off with Eldritch Knight, you can cast level 8 spells and have 14 BAB; the Spellsword can cast level 5 spells (still no True Seeing...do you know how many CR17 things have concealment?) and also has 14 BAB.

[Psyren]

Channeling a touch attack would allow for multiple charges spent of successful strikes. Unless my DM would allow a full Chill Touch to discharge on one attack which would be ... (you take 15d6 negative energy damage with no saving throw and take an additional 15 STR damage) ... well, damn! But the spells stays until successfully used, it's not lost on a missed swing. This would mean being able to cast before combat and store it until needed for up to 24 hours.

Whether or not the spell itself would normally stick around (and Chill Touch is an exception, not the rule - most spells like that discharge on one hit) is irrelevant. Spell Channel itself explicitly discharges the spell once you hit your target.

"The spell is discharged from the weapon, which can then hold another spell."


Many of the spells I'm choosing don't allow Saving Throws (Chill Touch, Scorching Ray, Brutal Seething Surge, Sonic Weapon, Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, Ennervation)

For the weaker ones, again damage caps come into play. A full-round action to hit once for 5d6 on a channeled Shocking grasp is weaker than full-attacking with a Thundering weapon for {1d6+Str}*4, and that's before Power Attack comes into play.



As for AoO, with Maxed out Concentration and maybe even Combat Casting in the mix, Defensive Casting is not too difficult. Yes, I only get one attack that round, but the subsequent rounds still have the full attacks supplied. It's not like I only get to use that channeled spell for that round only.

See the first point - you can't full-attack-channel with Spellsword. Even if you prime the spell beforehand, it will go off on the first hit, leaving the rest mundane, and you will need to eat move actions on subsequent rounds to reprime.



And, I think my main problem with Abjurant Champion is that it only goes for 5 levels.

Why do "only 5 levels" bother you? That's exactly how much advancement you're getting from SS. :smalltongue:



And I thought Abjurant Champion did have to burn spell slots to add damage in its 4th level bonus ability (which I still think pales in comparison to Arcane Strike). While a quickened Protection from Energy would be nice when a dragon pops up out of nowhere, I find the extended abjuration kind of take the point out of not having 99% of your protection spells up all the time anyway, making that quickened ability a bit unnecessary.

Honestly, the abilities are the least important part of AC. It gives you 5/5 casting and 5/5 BAB, and you don't need a martial dip to qualify - it would be a great class even if it had no class features at all.

[eggs]

The other thing I think you might be underestimating is the importance of getting stuff early.
This is very true.

I only played a spellsword once, and it was in early 3.5, so having a gish that didn't have to put up with Raumathari Battlemage's chassis or feat taxes was awesome. The character wasn't bad - it was basically a fighter that traded some numbers for things Alter Self and Haste - but everything took so long to come together... No channeling until ECL 10; no breastplates, dimension door or polymorph until ECL 11; the game didn't go long enough to get Overland Flight or Quickened spells.

I went back to Battlemage after that.