(PF) Bard Building

[Man With Dog]

Hi Guys.
I am stuck at work currently and only have access to few sites here. Also, can only post here thanks to the wonders of the iphone but can view okay from work.

The issue I'd like a little help on is making a 5th level bard. As basic in books as possible and only a 20pt buy if I recall correctly.
The party lack range currently but was wondering how helpful a bard can be, particularly in pre-made campaigns. Doesn't have to be ranged, that's just where the party lack atm.

I don't have a set style to conform to and have the starting gold of my level.
Is there anyone out there bored enough to guide me somewhat - little or more - in the wonders or downsides of a bard.

All assistance grateful - well... Most of it :-)

[Logic]

All the info you could need is here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). Building one I cannot help with, but supplying resources I can do.

[Serafina]

Archer-Bards work quite well in Pathfinder. Just put your good score into Dexterity (you don't need Charisma that much). 14 Charisma, 16 Dexterity should do the trick.

Point-Blank Shot (mostly a prerequisite), Deadly Aim. Rapid Shot, Precise Shot are mandatory Archery-feats.
Oh, and you can go into Arcane Archer later on, if you want to!

[Man With Dog]

I am very aware of the pathfinder srd site but I am also in work.
This site is blocked so I can't even read it.
Hence 50% of the reason I was asking for help.

[Logic]

I am very aware of the pathfinder srd site but I am also in work.
This site is blocked so I can't even read it.
Hence 50% of the reason I was asking for help.

Well, shoot. What was your concept? Or your bard's role? I might be able to help once I have a better idea of who you think your character is (at least in a party.)

[Man With Dog]

The party is pretty sufficient as is - it lacks arcane and range. Yes wizard sounds perfect to fill that void but were not going there right now.

There is no set role he has to take - as long as he isn't Melee, we should be okay. Bits were missing are knowledge, range and arcane. Pretty sure I fill one of those pretty much by default

[Logic]

Bard in the Archer role sounds best to me. Arcane Archer is one possible future for you, but you shouldn't have to feel shoehorned into it. The Bard can do plenty of cool stuff by himself, so I'd look into the feats that make your Bardic performance better or more useful (our party bard has a feat that gave the party +1d6 fire damage to all attack. At second level, that is a godsend.)

[Hylas]

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1vYT7lEwimdjo0T8NoJ8C2-wMueWMk68gZL_9pTIU4aE

The best core-only Pathfinder Bard guide on the internet. It's on Google Docs so maybe you can see it at work?

Race advice
Elf is nice because you can use a longbow, which gives you enhanced range and +1 damage over a shortbow.
Human is always good.

Archery Advice
If you're a human I'd take these feats:
1. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot (or Rapid Shot)
3. Rapid Shot (or Precise Shot)
5. Arcane Strike - Gain an untyped +1 to damage rolls as a swift action per 5 caster levels. Also treat ammo as magical for bypassing DR.
7. Deadly Aim - Gain +2 damage and -1 attack per 4 BAB.
9. Manyshot
11. Mounted Combat

I tend to weigh accuracy over damage, so you can arrange the feats however you want. Arcane Strike does less damage but can also be used for melee attacks, so I went with versatility and to-hit over raw damage.

Mounted Archery, using a Phantom Steed, is pretty easy to do. You might want Mounted Combat to avoid hits on your horse as it's pretty squishy and will be flying around in the sky. You do not take any penalties for ranged attacks on a mount as long as you don't make a double move or run, making the feat mounted archery less than necessary.

Arcane Archer is a good prestige class if you want to focus on archery over being a bard. It'll continue your spell casting but you'll have to get a weapon focus feat to qualify, as well as be an elf. I'd probably give up arcane strike to qualify.

General Bard Advice
The feat Lingering Performance can greatly enhance how long you can do bardic music, up to triple the number of rounds.
Use Versatile Performance to great effect to give yourself a ton of skills. At level 6 you can use two perform skills in the place of a total of four other skills. Depending on what kind of bard you want to be will change what skills you'll want to use, but avoid overlap.

[Peat]

You don't have to be an Elf to be an Arcane Archer actually - certainly no mention made of it on the d20pfsrd.

Also, if you're running short of feats, just take a dip into fighter. Yes, you lose some spellcasting, and I wouldn't do that if you're meant to be the main arcane caster, but it's an option on the table.

Man with Dog, will he be the main arcane caster?

[Man With Dog]

Thats a great response - thankyou very much.

In response to Peat - He will be the only arcane in the group actually.
I am not going to go Wizard for this choice - and all we are missing as a group is Arcane, Ranged and Knowledge skills.

I dont mind being able to fill the ranged dps class as long as i can fill a role and be useful to the group. I can make a really good Fighter Ranger with really good to hit and really good dmg but was hoping the Bard would offer something different.

Will definitely be looking at that google docs set up either here or when i get home depending on access so that could entertain me for a while.
I considered just going for the standard Bard buffs and stacking and spell focusing certain skills to make them a little insanely high.
Not sure how useful i would be then.

But yes - overall - i am the only arcane and/or ranged in the group.

[Wise Green Bean]

If you can convince them to let you use the dragonmagic sourcebook, your are frickin' golden. Dragonfire Inspiration feat, exchange the inspire courage bonus for a +1 to attack and damage rolls for 1d6 to damage. It was already mentioned but what makes it sexy is that there are ways to get a bigger bonus, early and fast. Badge of Valor(I think) is a plus 1 from MiC, there's a spell which I believe is called inspirational boost for +1(from Spell Compendium or the Completes), and there's masterwork instruments that give extra bardic music bonuses from one of the completes, I think the drums give you the +1. All of those are pretty standard sourcebooks, and now for 2 feats and 2Kish gp you have 4d6 damage to every hit for everyone in the party. That's without going crazy, I've seen it optimized up to 24d6. I wouldn't even recommend going the full 4d6 because you will rip through your enemies. Your GM hasn't accounted for you almost doubling the attack strength of the party.

[Peat]

Man with Dog - I think it's fairly safe to say you'll be filling a role alright! Mightn't want to dip fighter then in that case. Your call obviously - sounds like magic isn't a very big deal in that game.

But yeah, you can certainly be an effective archer as a Bard - Arcane Strike is a very good fillup to damage here, and other than that, works as you'd expect.

Incidentally, the Dervish Dancer archetype has some rather nice bonuses to combat - the designers probably meant for them to be used in hand to hand, but I can't see anything saying you can't use them with your bow. The downside is Inspire Courage and so on become limited in effect to you, but hey - I'm sure you've got plenty of buff spells for them. Might be worth looking at (assuming I'm right here).

[StreamOfTheSky]

For a bard archer, I would do an Archaeologist, since they can put up the "inspiration" (it's called luck, but works the same except self-only) as a swift action, and if you're an archer, you should be full attacking.

Lingering Performance is basically a required feat to get enough uses per day (you only get 4 + cha mod rounds...EVER, so w/ the feat you basically triple that, by performing, then dropping it and letting it linger for 2 rounds, rinse and repeat).

Feats:
1 Lingering Performance [human]
1 Point Blank Shot
3 Rapid Shot
5 Precise Shot

[Ravenica]

You don't have to be an Elf to be an Arcane Archer actually - certainly no mention made of it on the d20pfsrd.
Just another example why I refuse to let players to my table just using d20pfsrd any more XD It's pretty clearly the first requirement in the book, and on paizo's prd

[Arutema]

Just another example why I refuse to let players to my table just using d20pfsrd any more XD It's pretty clearly the first requirement in the book, and on paizo's prd

Until the 5th printing errata for it, which removed the race requirement. PFSRD is updated with latest errata.



Page 374—In the Arcane Archer requirements section, delete the line “Race: Elf or half-elf.”

[Hylas]

I'm glad they got rid of the racial requirement. Racial requirements should be setting based only and not put into the core crunch.

[Logic]

I'm glad they got rid of the racial requirement. Racial requirements should be setting based only and not put into the core crunch.

I don't entirely agree. Classes like "Dwarven Defender" should be race specific. It takes advantage of things dwarves already have.

Arcane Archer is a good example of a racial prestige class that need not be racially limited.

"I can cast spells and use a bow!"

Why is that elf only?

[DrDeth]

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1vYT7lEwimdjo0T8NoJ8C2-wMueWMk68gZL_9pTIU4aE

The best core-only Pathfinder Bard guide on the internet.
Race advice
Elf is nice because you can use a longbow, which gives you enhanced range and +1 damage over a shortbow.
Human is always good.

Archery Advice
If you're a human I'd take these feats:
1. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot (or Rapid Shot)
3. Rapid Shot (or Precise Shot)
5. Arcane Strike - Gain an untyped +1 to damage rolls as a swift action per 5 caster levels. Also treat ammo as magical for bypassing DR.
7. Deadly Aim - Gain +2 damage and -1 attack per 4 BAB.
9. Manyshot
11. Mounted Combat

I tend to weigh accuracy over damage, so you can arrange the feats however you want. Arcane Strike does less damage but can also be used for melee attacks, so I went with versatility and to-hit over raw damage.



Arcane Archer is a good prestige class if you want to focus on archery over being a bard.
General Bard Advice
The feat Lingering Performance can greatly enhance how long you can do bardic music, up to triple the number of rounds.
Use Versatile Performance to great effect to give yourself a ton of skills. At level 6 you can use two perform skills in the place of a total of four other skills. Depending on what kind of bard you want to be will change what skills you'll want to use, but avoid overlap.

I disagree about Treatmonk. He writes well, but he's such a HUGE min-maxer It's hard to take him seriously.

Mostly good advice here. Skip dipping or entering a PrC, both are not worth it in PF.

Lingering performance is a must get.



Lingering Performance is basically a required feat to get enough uses per day (you only get 4 + cha mod rounds...EVER, so w/ the feat you basically triple that, by performing, then dropping it and letting it linger for 2 rounds, rinse and repeat).


Umm, no. You also get +2 per level of bard.

[KutuluKultist]

I cannot recommend archery as a primary combat mode for anyone but a ranger, zen archer or, maybe, a dedicated fighter.
Until you get precise shot (requires two feats), you will be at -8 for almost any shot, afterwards only at -4 until you get improved precise shot (at lvl 11, unless you are a ranger or a zen archer). And that effort has only served to finally make you target the normal AC that everyone else is targeting. You've not yet done anything to make you archery better.

Also keep in mind, that archery requires STR for damage and DEX for accuracy, in addition to whatever else you need for you class.

[NamelessNPC]

Why are you assuming you will always be attacking enemies with cover and engaged in melee?

[KutuluKultist]

Why are you assuming you will always be attacking enemies with cover and engaged in melee?

Because in practical play, in my experience, that will almost always be the case. Usually, you have a mixed party, combat tends to happen at short distances, easily bridged by a charge. Melee will, with very few exceptions be joined within a round or two.

I have only ever seen two situation where almost all combat was over open space at medium to large ranges and in both cases, it was against a flying enemy that could not be grounded.

Virtually the only other option is massed limitation of movement. This more often than not brings sight and therefore targeting limitation along for the ride. Also, you need to keep your fighting men away from the enemies, who might not enjoy standing by, cuddling their greatswords, while you and the clerizard doubleteam the opposition, with you as the intern.

[Corlindale]

I agree that Precise Shot is a must, because the -4 from melee will come up in most, if not all, fights. PS is easy to get, though.

Cover is much easier to avoid, with a little tactical planning on your party's side. Improved Precise Shot *would* of course be nice to have early access to, so you could stop worrying about it entirely, but that's not going to happen for a long while if you play a class that doesn't get early entry.

I play a very efficient paladin archer even without Improved Precise Shot (though I will pick it up when I can). Early access to it certainly doesn't make or break an archer by any means.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Umm, no. You also get +2 per level of bard.

I was talking about Archaeologist's Luck. Did they errata it?

[KutuluKultist]

I was talking about Archaeologist's Luck. Did they errata it?

No.
And IIRC, the author said on the paizo board that it was intended to be that you don't get extra rounds.

But since it starts off with swift action activation, just grab Lingering Performance for x3 duration.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That's...exactly what I said to begin with...

[KutuluKultist]

That's...exactly what I said to begin with...

Little damage comes from repeating the true, great damage from repeating the false.