Ranged Disarm/Pin/Sunder worth it? [3.5] -Solved-

[Igneel]

I'm getting ready to play in a module game as a Ranger 6/Fighter 1 specializing in archery both in straight battle and being a sniper and was looking through my books for any feats worth taking when I opened my C. Warrior and noticed these three feats. [Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, & Ranged Sunder]

-Remove'd-

And I was wondering how worth it are they in the long run when I know the game is aiming to reach ~lvl 12+ for the final boss.

My build is currently a Human, and I was considering the Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) feat thinking that it might help with at least the Disarm/Pin feats by making me a 'virtual' Large size in regards for the checks.

Thanks in advance for any and all the answers you might supply!

[Water_Bear]

Not very? They are really situational, and as an Archer you already need to be very careful with your Feat selection. They're really cool and I wish they were more viable options.

Also; as these are probably not OGL, I think you aren't supposed to post the Feat descriptions here. People will look them up on other websites or use their own books if they need to check the details.

[HunterOfJello]

One important thing to remember about Disarm is that it knocks the item to the character's feet. It also only takes a move action to pick up an item off the ground. So, if you're going to disarm an enemy, make sure that someone takes the item away fast or that you at least get an AoO in for the trouble. If you disarm them from 20ft away, they'll just pick up their weapon again and then charge at you.

Sunder is a decent combat maneuver to use with a melee weapon, but I don't know if you'll have enough damage from using a bow to do much. Piercing weapons only do 1/2 damage (instead of none) when sundering, so you'd have to prepare some special blunt arrows to attack with. Arrows also do notoriously low damage, so it'll be difficult to harm much of anything properly. Targeting spell component pouches or magical items could be a decent strategy though.

Ranged Pin can get someone stuck, but it uses a grapple check and is highly dependent on them being next to a wall or something to pin them to. That's often not the case in the battles I've seen in most games.

~

So,

Disarm = bleh
Sunder = possible, but not great
Pin = nah

[DarthCyberWolf]

Actually I have an archer that uses Ranged Disarm, and in certain situations it has really come in handy. In particular, there was a bad guy with a very nasty intelligent weapon. When he closed with the party, I shot it out of his hand. Then a small member of the party was on standby ready to dart in, grab it, then Anklet of Translocation out. Also remember that even if they do spend a move action to pick it back up, they can’t full attack.

As for feat wise: While it is true that archery is feat intensive due to several almost mandatory feats, eventually you can run out of those feats to take, especially if you start taking fighter levels. (My method of getting Ranged Disarm is by EWP: Greatbow and Exotic Weapon Master. That class can also give you the ability to fire when threatened without provoking an AoO.)

[Gotterdammerung]

Ranged sunder and ranged pin are damn near worthless.

Ranged disarm can be very useful in certain situations BUT a good archer doesn't really get a free feat until after 12th.

So you will likely knock out a better feat to make room for ranged disarm.

All in all, that is OK as long as you like the flavor and what your character gets to do at the end of the day.

P.S. there are some nifty tricks you can do with ranger spells and ranged disarm.
For instance, Arrow Storm will allow you to make 1 ranged attack on every target. And as per combat manuever rules, any regular attack can be subbed for a disarm. Disarm a room for a standard action might not be "broke" but it is definitely "showy". Hell you could disarm a standing army with that trick, technically.

[Pika...]

I once played a half-orc fighter brute specializing in sundering. It was quite fun, especially after seeing the DM's expression when his squad of baddies ran out of weapons. :smallbiggrin:

Another fun time with him was when the DM saw I took Weapon Focus/Specialization [Rock] using the rules for Improvised Weapons damage by weight in one of the Complete Books. Let's say he was able to wield what was essentially a boulder. Those "Scwanni" swords never had a chance. :smallamused:

[DarthCyberWolf]

I once played a half-orc fighter brute specializing in sundering. It was quite fun, especially after seeing the DM's expression when his squad of baddies ran out of weapons. :smallbiggrin:

My party had words with our own fighter brute that liked to sunder. He was destroying our treasure! :smallfurious:

But yes, the DM's face when they run out of weapons is funny. At least until he decides they had a few handaxes stashed... somewhere...

[Igneel]

Not very? They are really situational, and as an Archer you already need to be very careful with your Feat selection. They're really cool and I wish they were more viable options.
Feats are generally the main problem for archers. The game I'm going to be playing is has several houserules, one of which involves feat gaining at every odd level instead of every 3.


Also; as these are probably not OGL, I think you aren't supposed to post the Feat descriptions here. People will look them up on other websites or use their own books if they need to check the details.
Ack! I'll remove them then.


One important thing to remember about Disarm is that it knocks the item to the character's feet. It also only takes a move action to pick up an item off the ground. So, if you're going to disarm an enemy, make sure that someone takes the item away fast or that you at least get an AoO in for the trouble. If you disarm them from 20ft away, they'll just pick up their weapon again and then charge at you.
What if I have an at-will Unseen Servant item or the like with standby instructions to move weapons? Would that make it better? Otherwise, yeah, you'd be right assuming none of the more tank-y players are standing in his way.


Sunder is a decent combat maneuver to use with a melee weapon, but I don't know if you'll have enough damage from using a bow to do much. Piercing weapons only do 1/2 damage (instead of none) when sundering, so you'd have to prepare some special blunt arrows to attack with. Arrows also do notoriously low damage, so it'll be difficult to harm much of anything properly. Targeting spell component pouches or magical items could be a decent strategy though.
There is at least the Serpentstongue arrows (Races of the Wild) that I know of meant to destroy items with Hardness 5 or less. Do you think the Alchemist's Fire Arrows (Dragon #349 ) or the sonic variant would do better? But yeah, spell components/holy symbols/wands/etc would pretty much be all I'd be able to destroy with the meager amount of damage a arrow can cause.

[/quote]Ranged Pin can get someone stuck, but it uses a grapple check and is highly dependent on them being next to a wall or something to pin them to. That's often not the case in the battles I've seen in most games.[/quote]
It was my understanding that it also includes the ground as '[I]or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck' prerequisite but I could be wrong. Aim at their boots and hope it sticks?

~~
So from what I'm getting so far, there are better things to invest my 1-2 (assuming Jotunbrud even helps) feats in. Alright, thanks for the help.

[cagemarrow]

The option would be better if it wasn't limited to within 30ft. . . I know as a DM I've contemplated removing that requirement entirely for them, or allowing Crossbow Sniper to up it to 60ft at least.

[Igneel]

Actually I have an archer that uses Ranged Disarm, and in certain situations it has really come in handy. In particular, there was a bad guy with a very nasty intelligent weapon. When he closed with the party, I shot it out of his hand. Then a small member of the party was on standby ready to dart in, grab it, then Anklet of Translocation out. Also remember that even if they do spend a move action to pick it back up, they can’t full attack.
And it may very well save the spellcaster characters if you spot them being within striking distance! Or at least long enough for them to either cast a spell or run for it. =P


My method of getting Ranged Disarm is by EWP: Greatbow and Exotic Weapon Master. That class can also give you the ability to fire when threatened without provoking an AoO.
This... I don't know why I didn't think about that! Practically get a couple of free feats in exchange for getting proficiency with a stronger bow. I'll have to look at my build (or plan a future investment) for that PrC. Thanks!



All in all, that is OK as long as you like the flavor and what your character gets to do at the end of the day.
Prior to this build I was considering the Mystic Ranger+Sword of the Arcane Order+Shooting Star variants/feat but the DM decided that it was much too complicated XP
Right now I think it can get by with or without the feats in any case damage/hitting-wise.


P.S. there are some nifty tricks you can do with ranger spells and ranged disarm.
For instance, Arrow Storm will allow you to make 1 ranged attack on every target. And as per combat manuever rules, any regular attack can be subbed for a disarm. Disarm a room for a standard action might not be "broke" but it is definitely "showy". Hell you could disarm a standing army with that trick, technically.
Well... We were told that we might be facing an army in the near future... Hopefully I'll be able to get to a high enough of a level to try out that trick. :smallwink:


I once played a half-orc fighter brute specializing in sundering. It was quite fun, especially after seeing the DM's expression when his squad of baddies ran out of weapons. :smallbiggrin:
Good times. But then I feel you get cheated out of possible loot... Darn my greedy side...
Of course if what the Dm says is true (and I wouldn't put it past him) we will be facing a army at some point so I guess worrying about a lack of loot is a moot point huh?


The option would be better if it wasn't limited to within 30ft. . . I know as a DM I've contemplated removing that requirement entirely for them, or allowing Crossbow Sniper to up it to 60ft at least.
My Dm doesn't seem to have too much of a problem with editing some feats, so maybe I can convince him to either allow an edit or an Improved version with increased range and modifier to the roll. I'll have to check with him once he gets over his allergies.

[The Redwolf]

Isn't there a feat or two that you can take that let you send weapons flying a distance away when you disarm? That at range could be particularly nice, although it might be only in Pathfinder...I know I've seen it though.

[Person_Man]

My opinion is no.

Also, ranged builds in general are very resource intensive, and tend not to have a high return on investment. You spend 4+ Feats (Point Blank Shot, Rapid shot, Precise Shot, Many Shot, etc) just to get it to function adequately, and the damage and extra effects that it can grant are not particularly impressive.

If you want to Power Attack, Trip, Disarm, Sunder, Grapple, Bull Rush and/or do other similar things at a range, then what you want is Whatever 5/Bloodstorm Blade 2 (Tome of Battle). It allows you to treat thrown weapons as melee attacks. We have a number of fairly cool builds floating around the forum that are built around it.

[Igneel]

If you want to Power Attack, Trip, Disarm, Sunder, Grapple, Bull Rush and/or do other similar things at a range, then what you want is Whatever 5/Bloodstorm Blade 2 (Tome of Battle). It allows you to treat thrown weapons as melee attacks. We have a number of fairly cool builds floating around the forum that are built around it.
Sadly my Dm is against having ToB being used during this particular adventure as he'll feel obligated to have the army we will be facing to have at least a fraction of their number modified accordingly. That and I feel that he doesn't want to try and memorize/learn the mechanics in-between sessions.

Seems that I finally got ahold of my Dm anyways, and after pressing him with my questions concerning the feats got answers that more or less made me decide not to go through with even the Disarm feat. So with that I'm just going to drop the idea of disarming/pinning my opponents for the time being.

Thanks again for all the advice/help.

[Ketiara]

I was a ranged rogue, halfling with a houserule that sling was as fast as a bow. I mean... I needed a boost here and there.

So before I realise other options I decided to got for ranged disarm, and although it wasnt very optimised, it was truely alot of fun, and with 4-6 attacks (buffed ofc) a very good way to disarm alot of ranged ppl....

DM: you spot 5 archers standing guard with arrows strung to their bows.
ME: invisible and uber stealther for that matter... I decide to attack the person furthest away to disarm and Ill work myself inwards as my att goes down.

DM: you have disarmed all 5 archers...

me: cool... ok guys its all up to you now :D

EDIT: if you are in my poss, then ask your DM to allow you to reload your sling as a swift action, and allow you the stunshotsling... its not OP but it will make you feel uber every once in a while

[animewatcha]

Ranged pin I can't say much for besides building grapple modifier/str modifier. For ranged sunder and disarm, I can help, but you must get DM permission and obviously not abuse too much. This was thought up on one of my 'help me' threads and sounds good for disarm and sunder ( but not pin since the arrow will be gone due arrowsplit ).

As you go through the levels, see with your DM about splitting enchantment ( Can try Pin here, but not the rest of this tactic ) and automatic reset trap that does arrowsplit whenever you fire an arrow. This is a resource coster since you need a masterwork arrow/bolt ( arrows that are actually made as magic weapons should be okay but even more resource heavy ) every time as per arrowsplit ( versus just the splitting ench ).

Result, one attack action for disarm. MW ( or better ) arrow that splits into 1d4 + 1 arrows and doubles again due to splitting enchantment. One disarm attempt just 'became' 4-10 disarm attempts.

Same goes for sunder except you have to deal with hardness, sundering mechanics, etc.

Ranged Pin won't work with arrowsplit due to the arrow(s) disappeared practically immediately upon hitting/missing. If you did just splitting ench with it, 2 pin attempts per shot.

Slight bonus with this since you are ranger, if your party is in dire need of healing. Races of the wild or whatever that nature 3.0 book was. Arrows of healing. Using the tactic above.. hefty price for even a cure light arrow, but... 4-10 x (1d8+5) per attack action can make for quite the emergency healing ( or anti-undead ).