Paladin issues in a lvl20 campaign

[cerin616]

A friend of mine is starting a campaign in which we are all to make level 20 characters, taking into account meeting prereqs for feats/PrC as we build, obviously. Our group has no true casters, and thus we lack any solid healing. I want to play a paladin, that much i am completely certain on but I need some help with the build.

A key item i found is from Dragon 314, gauntlets of heartfelt blows, which deals my cha modifier as fire damage on every hit

Stats as of right now

STR 28 (+9)
dex 13 (+1)
con 22 (+6)
int 11 (+0)
wis 14 (+2)
cha 32 (+11)

my build right now is favored soul 3 (cha based spell list sadly wis based DC)
Fighter 2 (feats, and ride as a skill)
Master of Radiance 1 (Librim Mortis, took for turn undead)
the last two classes give me access to Prestige Paladin 4 (divine grace, smite, all that cha based stuff MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM)
Fist of Raziel 9 (9/10 casting, gives me awesome smite stuff)
warblade 1 (all so i can get a tiger claw ability that gives me POUNCE)

feats i took that are notable are power attack, leap attack, power lunge, divine might, awesome smite, education (for knowledge skills to get in classes) Divine shield, mounted combat (pally access) and servant of heavens (fist of raziel)

with all that fighter esque feats, and with smite, I can put a huge number of points in power attack, get 3 times as much back on power attack with leap, power lunge gives me 2x str in a charge, divine might adds my cha to weapon damage, and pounce gives me a full 4 swing attack

assuming i land all 4 hits, and i use my full smite attack bonus as power attack (11) i get 33(PA)+11(gloves)+11(DivMig)+18(DoubleStr) x4 attacks is 308 without adding in my weapon damage (base d12, yea its magical so it has all kinds of d6, etc)

I feel formidable as a melee opponent.

The problem I face is this, my caster level is only 13, and there are other builds i could do where i say "screw spells" and become a better melee, and in the same breath there are wisdom based builds where i can go cleric, prest pally, and more caster oriented for closer to full divine casting which would be great for the heal lacking group.

Can I get some input or ideas? is my build fine and im just worrying? or should i consider mixing some other stuff up. again, The paladin/lawfulgood is a must, I love the roleplay perspective, but at the same time, i dont want to be subpar

Thanks

edit: Also, limited only to 3.0/3.5 official books. no third party stuff

[eggs]

Overall, it looks like an upgrade to straight Paladin, and like something that could handle melee as well as most reasonable builds at level 20. But having said that, I'm still going to nitpick. :smalltongue:

Cleric 1 is a much better dip than Master of Radiance 1. Two domains/devotion feats, and no skill point cost (unless something else shares the skill requirement).
Prestige Paladin 4 is basically a dead level and FoR 10 grants casting. I'm not going to try to unravel the feat progression, but if it isn't an obstacle, you'll probably want to bail on PrP after 3.
I'm not sure what your feats look like, but if the second fighter level isn't necessary, I'd avoid it.
I haven't dug around to see which knowledges you need, but if it's just one, Knowledge Devotion is probably going to be more useful than Education. With Divine Insight/Guidance of the Avatar to crank the check as noncombat actions, KD doubles as a sizable combat buff.
Divine Shield has a short duration and eats an action; that usually makes it a bad tactical play, even without considering the feat slot or shieldarm/animate shield costs.
I'd consider asking the DM to use Leadership, and to use it to continue Special Mount progression. Leadership is cheesy, but this the least abusive that it gets (at level 20, you could get a 15 HD hippogriff... not exactly overwhelming on its own). That would give you a mount (which opens a bunch of damage multipliers, as well as introducing a second character) with some survivability, undispellable flight and Share spells.

[Psyren]

MoR doesn't actually give you turn undead - it just advances what you already have.

But I personally recommend Sacred Exorcist instead, so you don't lose CL getting TU at all. Something like FS 8/SE 1/PrC Paladin 2/FoR 9 will get you 9ths, Divine Grace, and most of the tasty smite abilities while being largely Cha-SAD. Your 9th will naturally be Miracle, i.e. Super Anyspell, and boost the power of your build significantly. 18 CL should solve your casting problems too.

[cerin616]

i am going to take out the 4th pally level for sure, and see what else i can try and fit in for additional casting. Ill need to put some more thought on the single level of cleric. even with domain access, I wont be progressing the casting over the favored soul because of the wis requirement, so I wont have access to anyhting more than the first level domain spells and the domain bonuses. those could be good or bad depending, but the domains i have access to are healing, hero, courage, and law. and the skill requirements are somewhat overlapped with paladin (8 nature and 4 religion( paladin is 5 religion and 2 nobility)) The second fighter level i could consider getting rid of after i take a look at my feats. perhaps i can replace divine might with one of the fighter feats i took.

If i do end up switching these things around ill have 2 class levels to spare, so if anyone has any input, im all ears.

as for leadership, the DM banned the feat and any like it as they are pretty silly. I dont know what would happen if i talked to him about upping my mount instead, but I doubt he will go for it.

also, unrelated to what egg mentioned, the level in warblade also allows me to switch my weapon focus from my deity (favored soul 3) to a greathammer (1d12 x4)

Thanks for the nitpicking, its exactly what i like to see especially when it might free up 2 full ECL.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't have any build advice. I just want to point out that, no group needs a dedicated healer. That's what wands of CLW and umd checks are for. See also: Healing belts (MIC).

I don't know where to find it, but there's a guide that describes why this is true in much greater detail. Could somebody get us a link please?

[cerin616]

MoR doesn't actually give you turn undead - it just advances what you already have.

But I personally recommend Sacred Exorcist instead, so you don't lose CL getting TU at all. Something like FS 8/SE 1/PrC Paladin 2/FoR 9 will get you 9ths, Divine Grace, and most of the tasty smite abilities while being largely Cha-SAD. Your 9th will naturally be Miracle, i.e. Super Anyspell, and boost the power of your build significantly. 18 CL should solve your casting problems too.

Its not a bad build, but with favored soul my spell DC is still wis based and so my spells wont pack much punch. Im mostly in the caster level for heals, and any offensive spells that come with the package that might work. My primary goal is still punch things in the face extremely well. My primary roll is initiation in combat IE run in like an idiot and break the enemy lines. I know the strengths of casting, but i am not really willing to give up any stats to get wisdom higher.

as for the master of radiance, DM read it and decided its obscure and will allow it to grant me turn undead.


I don't have any build advice. I just want to point out that, no group needs a dedicated healer. That's what wands of CLW and umd checks are for. See also: Healing belts (MIC).

I don't know where to find it, but there's a guide that describes why this is true in much greater detail. Could somebody get us a link please?

I know we can get a long way on the umd, and i dont plan on being a dedicated healer, but our group (as far as i know, not everyone has pinned down what they want as far as i) consists of a two weapon fighter, a chain fighter, one keeps floating between wizard and psion, and a sneaky utilitous rogue.

I just want to bring some healing to the party so that we have it as long as it doesnt cost me too much.

[eggs]

Higher-level spells don't have to be offensive. Gaining access to Giant Size, Draconic Polymorph, Bite of the Werebear etc. through Miracle is going to be a huge boost to a melee build, regardless of the DC.

[cerin616]

its going to be tough still, with this build i wont have pounce, meaning i cant get as large a bonus on charges. I lose some base attack, which i guess sint as important seeing as i can get it back with the cleric spell that makes it equal your level... also lose out on a feat that i am not sure would be

[T.G. Oskar]

So, right now, you have a Favored Soul 3/Fighter 2/Master of Radiance 1/Prestige Paladin 4/Fist of Raziel 9/Warblade 1 build (put this way to make it easier; yours has the explanation, but this form is easier on most people's eyes.

The first thing I notice is that your DM approved of an item in a Dragon Magazine. If it's not too much hassle; would it be willing to approve of the Serenity feat? This makes all of the Prestige Paladin's features key off Wisdom instead of Charisma, making the Cleric dip even more viable. That makes your DC much, much better, making you a better caster. Talk to your DM to see if it can allow you to shift your uses of Turn Undead from Wisdom to Charisma at the moment you choose Serenity

Second, as mentioned by eggs, but emphasized by me: Prestige Paladin 4 is REALLY underwhelming. Remove Disease 1/week is really bad, even more because you ALREADY have Remove Disease as a 3rd level spell. Really bad idea, IMO. Meanwhile, Fist of Raziel's capstone is several degrees of awesome (essentially you always have a Holy weapon at hand; got tortilla chips? Improvised Holy shuriken!), AND it progresses spellcasting. Just with the levels of Cleric (let's say 3 for the heck of it), the three levels of Prestige Paladin (+2) and Fist of Raziel 10, that's a solid CL 15th, and you're just missing what other 4 levels to add. Of those, if you add two that improve caster levels, that means CL 17th with Cleric spells, and thus 9th level spells. The same 16 levels net you BAB 15, which is just around the threshold for all iteratives, so it's right within the Divine Gish archetype.

The last 4 levels must have at least 1 point of BAB and two caster levels. Advancing Prestige Paladin by 4 does it, but you can't add Warblade then. Just a timely dip in Warblade may end up with Pounce, but a double dip in Swordsage (if the DM approves Serenity) nets you Wis to AC (just make sure to get Light Armor, particularly a Mithral Breastplate for better effectiveness) and more maneuvers, plus the needed point of BAB, but leaves you with only 2 levels to play with and you can only get Pounce as a starting attack (barring Adaptive Style). Sacred Exorcist is the go-to PrC, though. If you wish to stretch it a little bit, you can get up to 3 levels of Hospitaler, which should net you 3 points of BAB and advances spellcasting, plus also advances Lay on Hands and grants extra Fighter Bonus feats (works best if paired with Warblade).

Feat-wise, a shift to Wis may leave Divine Might and Divine Shield under-powered, not to mention a need for Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) for full CL 20th (though still counting as a Cleric of 15-18 levels for spellcasting). Mounted Combat gives way to Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge, which can definitely super-power the smite to deal extraordinary amounts of damage, but requires a proper mount (which isn't an option). Knowledge Devotion (if you're willing to sacrifice one of your domains, less of a hassle if you go Cloistered Cleric even though you need more points of BAB) can help a lot on attack and damage rolls (more for attack rolls because you got Education for all the Knowledge skills you need and because that feeds Power Attack even more; the damage is an afterthought) if used carefully, though you'll need some sort of decent Int to gain access to a big deal of them (at least consider Knowledge [Arcana] and [Nature] which cover the biggest ground between the two).

[Psyren]

Ignore Wisdom - use your spells to buff yourself, heal, and even summon backup if you want, and you won't ever have to worry about save DCs. You even said you want to be the healer, and that your primary goal is to punch things in the face - you don't need save DCs to do those things. And you'll be a great healer just through items thanks to stuff like Lesser Vigor and Cure Light Wounds being on your spell list.

As far as pounce, just get Travel Devotion. Since you have so much Cha, you'll have turn attempts out the a- I mean, plenty to fuel it with, more than enough for several 10-round encounters/day. Swift action move up to your target, full attack, repeat.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Prestige Paladin is underwhelming unless your DM rules that you can then take Battle Blessing. If you can do that, then holy crap do it.

If ToB is in, then Crusader->Cleric->Ruby Knight Vindicator is the best not-a-paladin that you can make, especially with PrPaladin 1+Battle Blessing. Turn Undead attempts get you lots of extra swift actions, spells become swift actions... you see how it works.

Cleric or Cloistered Cleric into Knight of the Raven could be worth doing.

Cleric or CC will be better for you than Favored Soul. Having domains > not having domains. Contemplative 1 is a great dip just because you get another domain. Sovereign Speaker is good for this as well. Church Inquisitor is good for 5 levels. Divine Oracle is good as either a 2-level dip for Evasion in heavy armor, or the full 10 - always act in a surprise round <3. Sacred Exorcist is always good, of course.

Since you want healing, consider taking the Divine Restoration ACF and giving up a domain power to spontaneously cast restoration spells. Divine Magician is nice as well if your domains have crap powers.

Edit: and I'm a cheesy jerk for bringing it up but have you considered DMM?

[Psyren]

Prestige Paladin is underwhelming unless your DM rules that you can then take Battle Blessing. If you can do that, then holy crap do it.

It's good even without that; you get access to the Paladin list (letting you get some nice spells deeply discounted like Lesser Restoration) and of course Divine Grace, which stacks with just about everything else that can boost your saves. The martial weapons don't hurt either, though FoR gets you that too of course. Finally, the smiting stacks between the two.

But DG is the biggest draw, and worth losing 1 CL for in this build.

[cerin616]

so, as of right now im taking out a rank in pr pally and a rank in fighter, switching out divine might for power lunge (previously fighter feat) and adding a rank of favored soul and fist of raziel. i lose cure disease, i lose divine might, but i gain 2 CL (up to 15) and I gain all improvised weapons as holy. I cant move warblade or i lose my pounce, and i am limited as to what i can move around because of prereqs to get into PrCs

[Psyren]

I cant move warblade or i lose my pounce, and i am limited as to what i can move around because of prereqs to get into PrCs

Well, again - Travel Devotion gets you pounce anyway, so you don't need Warblade at all.

[cerin616]

Well, again - Travel Devotion gets you pounce anyway, so you don't need Warblade at all.

will that still count as a charge attack though?

also, another option that my DM actually gave me was for a class like Apostle of Peace that gains spell casting rapidly. Sadly, vow ov poverty is stopping me from maintaining the class. ifanyone knows of other classes that give a limited spell list that develops quickly (level 9 spells is 10 levels) I can see if that would fit in the build.

[Psyren]

will that still count as a charge attack though?

No, it would be a "move+full attack." But your opponent will still be broken and bleeding before you, so I don't see the problem personally.

[cerin616]

the only issues i had with travel devotion over pounce is that i cant charge. thus i lose the benefit of leap attack and of power lunge (double str bonus and tripled power attack ratio) thats a ton of damage.