The Bard Dilemma

[Ehsteve]

Having joined a new campaign after a long period (several years) of purely DMing, I decided to play a Bard, but here's the rub: I honestly don't know where to go from here. Already knowing the sets of builds from optimitzed inspire courage through to lyric thaumaturge/sublime chord I'm still at level 3 which means there's plenty of time left, I'm just don't know whether an inspire courage build or maxed arcane caster will help the party with our current rogue/barbarian/cleric mix.

I have toyed around with the idea of Dashing Swordsman in true Bard style of over-the-top window-crashing, pun-spouting and damsel-saving cheesyness, but am unsure about how to go about this. Swashbuckler is an option, and I'm already outputting inspire courage +3 with Song of the Heart and Inspirational Boost but If I leave it there I don't know if that +3 will really be useful at all at high level. Chaos Music is a possibility, but that's a feat invested for the sake of keeping Bardic Music, which would only be helpful if I then take Words of Creation to max it out (another feat investment). On top of that I don't know if simply leaving the utility of Bard spellcasting behind is wise given there's only one other caster.

Long story short: should I stick with Bard and max out Bardic Music/spellcasting, go Swashbuckler then aim for Dashing Swordsman or is there another option I have not yet considered?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Just eyeballing it, I'd probably say go with an Inspire Courage route. How long do you expect the game to last? How skilled are the other players, and what are their playstyles? A support Cleric, a not-combat-y Rogue and an ubercharger probably want an arcane caster more, while a TWF rogue, a Cleric gish and a Barbarian who hits stuff with stuff will probably get more from Inspire Courage.

[Ehsteve]

Short range focused rogue with thrown weapons/bow, mainly built for combat. Charge focused barbarian looking into Frenzied Berserker (I'm already preparing the at-will grease item to stop him slaughtering the party) and the cleric is looking into item creation and support in general. All are fairly low-skill and have only been playing for a short time whereas I've been playing for quite some time.

Game is weekly and looks to go for at least 6 months if not longer.

Also is there a way apart from the Healing Belt to deal with the nonlethal damage taken from Words of Creation? This is mainly because the cleric is an evil alignment and is slow as hell (compared to the barbarian and me who are racing around all the time).

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Short range focused rogue with thrown weapons/bow, mainly built for combat. Charge focused barbarian looking into Frenzied Berserker (I'm already preparing the at-will grease item to stop him slaughtering the party) and the cleric is looking into item creation and support in general. All are fairly low-skill and have only been playing for a short time whereas I've been playing for quite some time.

Game is weekly and looks to go for at least 6 months if not longer.

Also is there a way apart from the Healing Belt to deal with the nonlethal damage taken from Words of Creation? This is mainly because the cleric is an evil alignment and is slow as hell (compared to the barbarian and me who are racing around all the time).

Healing Hymn can help you there.

Half-Elf Bard (:smallfrown:) 1 gets you Calm Emotions instead of Countersong, which might help keep your FB friend from destroying all the things, even that one.

[Ehsteve]

Already a Human Bard (the extra feat always helps for getting into bard PrCs soon as possible). Plus Fascinate for some strange reason always seems to be useful.

The end build looks like being Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 10.

If worse comes to worse there's always Chaos Music to gain the Bardic Music I miss out on in addition to the Vest of Legends. Fortunately Lyric Thaumaturge 4 means you actually only end up missing +1 BAB from the build so it ends up looking like +14/+9/+4 (due to not taking a different 3/4 BAB class at 5th/9th/13th/17th).

[Varil]

Err...I'm only coming up with +12 BAB. +3(flat), from Lyric Thaumaturge, +4(technically +4.5) from Bard, and +5 flat from Sublime Chord(which is a 1/2 BAB class, according to Complete Arcane).

[Ehsteve]

Err...I'm only coming up with +12 BAB. +3(flat), from Lyric Thaumaturge, +4(technically +4.5) from Bard, and +5 flat from Sublime Chord(which is a 1/2 BAB class, according to Complete Arcane).

So it is...obviously my memory isn't as great as I thought it was...

I looked into Virtuoso but I don't really see the great benefit of virtuoso bardic abilities over that of the sublime chord (given sublime performances can add to caster levels etc).

[Varil]

I can agree with that. I was building a Bard myself earlier, and looked at Virtuoso. If it had 3/4 BAB or something I'd consider it, but as is it's pretty terrible. Are there any other Bard PrCs that even advance spellcasting? I saw Seeker of the Song...somewhere, but it didn't appear to advance casting so I just skipped it.

Half tempted to look for a casting prestige class to use to advance Sublime Chord, which I think is technically rules-legal, since SC is its own class. Though it's questionable as to whether or not that'd also advance the Bard base caster level.

Unfortunately, Lyric Thaumaturge specifically advances Bardic casting, so without DM ruling I don't think you could use it to advance Sublime Chord, otherwise I would because I actually like LT more. Sublime Chord's got great casting, but its class features are pretty lame. Cosmic Fire sounds awesome until you realize it only does like 50ish damage at level 20.

[Ehsteve]

I can agree with that. I was building a Bard myself earlier, and looked at Virtuoso. If it had 3/4 BAB or something I'd consider it, but as is it's pretty terrible. Are there any other Bard PrCs that even advance spellcasting? I saw Seeker of the Song...somewhere, but it didn't appear to advance casting so I just skipped it.

Half tempted to look for a casting prestige class to use to advance Sublime Chord, which I think is technically rules-legal, since SC is its own class. Though it's questionable as to whether or not that'd also advance the Bard base caster level.

Unfortunately, Lyric Thaumaturge specifically advances Bardic casting, so without DM ruling I don't think you could use it to advance Sublime Chord, otherwise I would because I actually like LT more. Sublime Chord's got great casting, but its class features are pretty lame. Cosmic Fire sounds awesome until you realize it only does like 50ish damage at level 20.

It honestly doesn't concern me whether LT adds to SC or Bard. It still adds to the same spell list essentially. The only minor advantage is that it absorbs some of the bad BAB from SC. In the meantime you're still suffering from Bard syndrome until level 11 (let me play you the song of my people!).

So what we're looking for here is a PrC which advances spellcasting at a full rate and has feats/skills which sit within a Bard's set. Also a 3/4 BAB seems to be important.

However the main idea is to find something which has class features which outstrip those of the SC that is not Virtuoso. Let the hunt begin!

[Eldest]

Would Virtuoso be able to advance SC?

[Varil]

Probably, but it sacrifices a caster level, which is horrible. Worse for the SC, even, than a normal caster. A SC doesn't get 9ths until level 19, so losing more than 1 caster level drops him right down the 8ths.

I guess it'd be an alright class if you took a lot of levels in it. The early songs are crap, but the later ones are actually pretty nice.

It's *really* hard to find "Bard" PrCs. Technically any spellcasting or gish-y one would probably do, but none of them really feel like Bards.

I'm tempted to just slip into Abjurant Champion, but I'm reluctant because it's just the obvious choice from a 'power' perspective.

[Ehsteve]

Would Virtuoso be able to advance SC?

Well by strict RAW yes. SC has it's own spell list (slots and known spells) which is different from the Bard.

However the point is not to use Virtuoso because it only solves one of many issues with the build, which is mainly useless class features and and a no-so-great BAB (unless you maximize the hell out of Inspire Courage).

This reminds me: is there a feat after 1st level which allows would allow a character to act as per a Battle Dragon heritage for the purpose of generating sonic damage via Dragonfire Inspiration?

If not, well I missed out on that opportunity...guess I'll just have to deal with hitting enemies with a lute covered in magical fire.

[Varil]

Draconic Heritage from Races of the Dragon has Battle Dragon as a listed type, but requires 1 sorcerer level. Dragontouched from Dragon Magic(IIRC) lets you treat your character level as sorcerer levels for the purposes of draconic feats, though.

Edit : Oh, I see. "Sorcerer level 1st". Hrm.

Edit 2 : One (inefficient) way to do it might be to take a level of Dragon Shaman. A sidebar in Dragon Magic mentions you treat your Totem Dragon as is you had Draconic Heritage for it in relation to feats like that. Doesn't say what happens if you have both Draconic Heritage AND Dragon Shaman, though.

Edit 3, because double-posting is for chumps : Well, it doesn't negate the terrible BAB problem, and loses a caster level, but I want to nominate the Dracolexi from Races of the Dragon as "coolest prestige class of the night". No bardic abilities, but a heavy focus on language and sound-based tricks(they even use a Bard in their examples, how appropriate).

[Ehsteve]

Draconic Heritage from Races of the Dragon has Battle Dragon as a listed type, but requires 1 sorcerer level. Dragontouched from Dragon Magic(IIRC) lets you treat your character level as sorcerer levels for the purposes of draconic feats, though.

Edit : Oh, I see. "Sorcerer level 1st". Hrm.

Edit 2 : One (inefficient) way to do it might be to take a level of Dragon Shaman. A sidebar in Dragon Magic mentions you treat your Totem Dragon as is you had Draconic Heritage for it in relation to feats like that. Doesn't say what happens if you have both Draconic Heritage AND Dragon Shaman, though.

Edit 3, because double-posting is for chumps : Well, it doesn't negate the terrible BAB problem, and loses a caster level, but I want to nominate the Dracolexi from Races of the Dragon as "coolest prestige class of the night". No bardic abilities, but a heavy focus on language and sound-based tricks(they even use a Bard in their examples, how appropriate).

You mind expanding on the Dracolexi PrC abilities a bit? It sounds interesting and I have seen some Bard/Dracolexi builds before, which means it can't ALL be terrible.

Plus the character is a little bit of a Kobold-savant at the moment (if extortion and intimidation counts he's right up there in the field). So long as it doesn't absorb too much in terms or requirement (or require me to be dragonblood or any of that jibba-jabba).

[Varil]

Dracolexi has two real class features. First are Draconic words, which you learn 1 of every few levels. They start out decent(like curing exhaustion) and work their way up to pretty good(regain a spell slot of your highest level). The neat thing is you can use as many draconic words per day as you want, the only catch is you can't target the same character more than once per day. So that regain spell slot? Usable on yourself, and any other spontaneous caster in the party. Actually, it just says it renews the highest level slot they can cast spontaneously. I think you could technically give a Cleric a slot for a spontaneous Cure spell, or a Wizard with Alacritous Cogitation might be able to renew a slot but not necessarily use it. Wording, shenanigans, etc.

Every few levels you also get to add a power word to your spells known, even if you don't have that spell level yet(but will eventually gain it). Even better, you add the spell at a level lower than normal. So a 7th level power word could be learned by a normal Bard as a 6th level power word. But a regular Bard(though not a Sublime Chord) couldn't learn an 8th level power word, because he never gets 7th level slots.

A couple other minor abilities, but you get the jist of the class.

[Ehsteve]

I may be wrong but I do believe there are several Bard-related feats and PrC class abilities which do generate exhaustion, not to mention if the barbarian rages it could well remove the fatigue (I also assume effects which remove exhaustion should also remove fatigue).

So that certainly has my attention, but I shall see how it stacks up against high level SC (the only SC ability which really seems worth it is the ability to generate up to +4 CL at will via bardic music).

[Fable Wright]

Swiftblade is an option, if you wanted to consider the Dashing Swordsman trope. Fluffing the Snowflake Wardance feat as pun-related attacks, fluffing miss chances as the power to parry attacks, and dodge spells, and the bonus to speed as the ability to just tumble all over the battlefield. Something like Bard 7/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 3/Swiftblade +1, while not being the most powerful thing ever, still can be pretty awesome in the game, and has the 20th level Capstone ability of Time Stop- on a bard. Plus, you're still Hasting your whole party as a side effect of taking the class, which still helps everyone out. It might not be what you're looking for, but it's a way to get that competant at combat feel with some powers that fit the basics of Dashing Swordsman when refluffed.

[Socratov]

Chiming in with an old favorite: bard8/virtuoso2/sublime chord2/virtuoso8

Renault is9ths, moeerate bab, 2 levels short of full ic.

[Leon]

Having joined a new campaign after a long period (several years) of purely DMing, I decided to play a Bard, but here's the rub: I honestly don't know where to go from here. Already knowing the sets of builds from optimitzed inspire courage through to lyric thaumaturge/sublime chord I'm still at level 3 which means there's plenty of time left, I'm just don't know whether an inspire courage build or maxed arcane caster will help the party with our current rogue/barbarian/cleric mix.

I have toyed around with the idea of Dashing Swordsman in true Bard style of over-the-top window-crashing, pun-spouting and damsel-saving cheesyness, but am unsure about how to go about this. Swashbuckler is an option, and I'm already outputting inspire courage +3 with Song of the Heart and Inspirational Boost but If I leave it there I don't know if that +3 will really be useful at all at high level. Chaos Music is a possibility, but that's a feat invested for the sake of keeping Bardic Music, which would only be helpful if I then take Words of Creation to max it out (another feat investment). On top of that I don't know if simply leaving the utility of Bard spellcasting behind is wise given there's only one other caster.

Long story short: should I stick with Bard and max out Bardic Music/spellcasting, go Swashbuckler then aim for Dashing Swordsman or is there another option I have not yet considered?

Want to play a Bard then do so - Don't be tied down to meeting "Optimal" expectations and choose to play something that you like the look of.

Bards are great at Party Support (a Bard and a Cleric in a group make it nigh on unstoppable) and if that is what you like to play then its a good choice but if you need a more focused role then something else may be a better choice.

[Varil]

Chiming in with an old favorite: bard8/virtuoso2/sublime chord2/virtuoso8

Huh. I didn't notice you can actually split a PrC's casting before. I'd always read it as picking a class to advance at the first level of the PrC.

Hm...Dracolexi gives the same wording too.

Bard 6/Dracolexi 2/Lyric Thaumaturge 2/Sublime Chord 2/Dracolexi 8

...nah. Too messy, and you don't get much of anything out of the two Lyric Thaumaturge levels.

Bard 8/Dracolexi 2/Sublime Chord 2/Dracolexi 8 looks better. You get the second level of Inspire Courage, all 10 Dracolexi levels, full 10 level Sublime Chord casting, and the Song of Arcane Power. You only get 9 uses of Bardic Music, but that should be enough, and there's always Extra Music if you're really desperate for more.

[Socratov]

Huh. I didn't notice you can actually split a PrC's casting before. I'd always read it as picking a class to advance at the first level of the PrC.

Hm...Dracolexi gives the same wording too.

Bard 6/Dracolexi 2/Lyric Thaumaturge 2/Sublime Chord 2/Dracolexi 8

...nah. Too messy, and you don't get much of anything out of the two Lyric Thaumaturge levels.

Bard 8/Dracolexi 2/Sublime Chord 2/Dracolexi 8 looks better. You get the second level of Inspire Courage, all 10 Dracolexi levels, full 10 level Sublime Chord casting, and the Song of Arcane Power. You only get 9 uses of Bardic Music, but that should be enough, and there's always Extra Music if you're really desperate for more.

I never saw that rule, so you can issue you can issue:smallamused:

Don't be restricties by the rules, use the to your greatest effect :smallcool:

[Ehsteve]

Want to play a Bard then do so - Don't be tied down to meeting "Optimal" expectations and choose to play something that you like the look of.

Bards are great at Party Support (a Bard and a Cleric in a group make it nigh on unstoppable) and if that is what you like to play then its a good choice but if you need a more focused role then something else may be a better choice.

Except that when it's a high-power campaign it's a case of power up or let the party down. The issue with Dracolexi is that if I am going for full CL, Dracolexi actually loses 1 and in that case, the build isn't fully optimized to arcane spellcasting.

Both builds end up with the same BAB but Lyric Thaumaturge gains extra spell slots on top of full CL progression and Bardic Music

[Leon]

This is why i don't like optimization - it drives people to believe that only a particular way is right and that anything else is bad when its not.

It can be a high low, medium power game. However its still better to play what you like. Filling "needs" is a useful choice but any decent group is going to be able to cope with player choices not being "optimal" and actually playing something that they want.

If you want to play the power surging bard then its a open choice but don't play it because the "power level" demands it if its not that you would really like play.

Nothing is required in a D&D group - Every class combination does work despite what some believe (some will have different challenges to over come and a good DM will account for those)

[Socratov]

This is why i don't like optimization - it drives people to believe that only a particular way is right and that anything else is bad when its not.

It can be a high low, medium power game. However its still better to play what you like. Filling "needs" is a useful choice but any decent group is going to be able to cope with player choices not being "optimal" and actually playing something that they want.

If you want to play the power surging bard then its a open choice but don't play it because the "power level" demands it if its not that you would really like play.

Nothing is required in a D&D group - Every class combination does work despite what some believe (some will have different challenges to over come and a good DM will account for those)

If there was only one way to optimisme bard you are right. However, you can optimisme bard at least 3 was while leaving room for at least 2 other really competent sides. That is why virtuoso sublieme cor is th prefereren master bard at(it leaves room for ic as well), or snowflake wardance for melee (same ic left ). The thing with optimising bard is choosing and start ranking your competenties, making a list of things you become very good in and lens good as you start going down the list. That's why there is no optimisten bard build, but a bard build optimised for X, Y or Z, often listing the second competency as a side dish (" bard build optimisten for X with a bit of Z on the side"). X Y and Z can be spellcasting, inspire courage / DFI, melee an partyface (last one is autosucceeded alvast immedeately by choosing bard).