PvP Help

[AwkwardTurtle]

Hi all. I'm running a dungeon crawler with 6-7 players, all level 10. I'm building a desert-themed fortress/castle that they've been sent to to save the princess (I'm creative, I know). Before they leave, the person that hired them tells them all privately that when the quest is done, they will get the fortress and everything in it. When they arrive, I'm going to sweeten the deal and privately tell them all why this fortress will be AWESOME for their char to have.

So, basically, they go through and fight all the monsters, which are all cursed or necrotized versions of the previous inhabitants (all the maids are dune hags, all the guards are skelly warriors, the exotic animals in the oasis are all dire with some zombie flavor thrown in, etc) and the boss fight is a sand dragon. When they kill the dragon, it dies, and the princess (who was a mummy) comes back to life, but then ages very suddenly and crumbles to dust. Before she dies, she tells them thank you for lifting the curse, and that the newly freed castle will pass to its rightful owner.

At this point, I'm guessing they'll either fight each other or get angry and go back to kill the guy that hired them. I'm really hoping for the former. So, other than the massive carrot of "if you win you get this sweet fortress," any other ideas to pit them against each other in the end? Also, any tips on how to do PvP without getting a headache?

[Agincourt]

You want your players to fight one another? I hope you know what your doing.

Having gotten that disclaimer out of the way, it's hard to predict how individual players will react. In some groups, PvP happens pretty much on its own. In other groups, it would never happen. As for getting players to fight over a fortress, that depends on how persuasive you are as a salesman. If the players are loyal to one another, they may not understand why they fortress is any less use to them just because one of their friend's name is on the deed.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is just a bad plan, from which no good can come. PVP is -not- a good thing. I honestly hope for the sake of your group that they choose option A, killing the bastard that tried to pit them against each other.

[Ramshack]

Players choosing to fight one another has never happened naturally in any of my campaigns. They are always loyal to one another and are often generous with their spoils.

The few times such an event occurred is due to a mind affecting state such as dominate person and frenzied beserker.

Or staged in gladiator ring as prisoners or at a festival as a friendly tournament using non lethal damage.

Though if you want to encourage it, splitting something as mundane as a fortress might not be enough. Either suggest to each player privately the others may take it for themselves. Suggest an artifact might be within its walls that will grant only one person power.

Or just curse the damn place and make them slowly start to look at each other suspiciously and accusingly.

[AwkwardTurtle]

I'm a little uncertain as to why PvP is viewed as such a terrible thing. Has anyone done it before? Can you give me some insight here? I'm usually not one to trust the "don't do it! it never goes well!" The same thing was said about co-DMing, and I've had a very successful campaign come out of that.

[snoopy13a]

I'm a little uncertain as to why PvP is viewed as such a terrible thing. Has anyone done it before? Can you give me some insight here? I'm usually not one to trust the "don't do it! it never goes well!" The same thing was said about co-DMing, and I've had a very successful campaign come out of that.

I suppose things could get personal. But it depends on your players, PvP might not be a big deal to them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It takes a group of higher than average maturity to handle it well. It's much more likely that if one player has his character kill another, then there will be ill-will bred between them, rather than the both of them taking it in stride as part of a good storytelling experience. Putting together a competetive character is a fair amount of work, and most people aren't happy when that work gets thrown out.

I'm not saying it's impossible for PvP to work in a game. It's just very unlikely.

You're actually trying to put your players into a situation where either three of them are going to have to roll new characters, or you're going to end up DM'ing 4 mini-campaigns that all take place in the same world and are at cross purposes.

Even with the best of groups this is fairly unlikely to end well, and that's why I'm saying it's a bad idea.

I suspect that most people understand this on at least a subconcious level and that that's why they're saying it too. That or just bad experiences with PvP in their pasts.

[AwkwardTurtle]

You're actually trying to put your players into a situation where either three of them are going to have to roll new characters, or you're going to end up DM'ing 4 mini-campaigns that all take place in the same world and are at cross purposes.


So, just to clarify, this is a 1shot crawler, and most of them threw together their chars in an evening, or used online builds.

[roguemetal]

Hi there. I heard PVP and players and realized I was in the right place.

So, there are a lot of good ways to incite PvP, and a lot of bad ones.
But before that, make sure this is the right party to create a PvP scenario.

If the party has a tendency to metagame in a way that they work together often, I suggest against PvP, it will fail, or worse, be taken as personal insult outside of game.

If the party has mostly good aligned characters, avoid this. The only way to get their characters to fight will be with deception of some kind, which will likely be taken as cheap or unfair.

If the party has an incredibly unbalanced party, such as a wizard and three basic fighters, for the love of everything holy, don't do this without granting ridiculous items or something.

If this is neither a 1-2 game session, or an extended campaign of 10-20 sessions, don't attempt this. People are okay letting one-shot characters die for silly reasons, and are fine with seeing developed characters meet their inevitable end, but anything in-between will feel like being cheated.

Now, you've read my warnings and still want PvP? Then you and your party of non-casual gamers have my respect.


RULES FOR GOOD PVP THROUGH PERSONAL EXPERIENCE

#1 Deities and Demiliches

If you plan on ENDING with a fight, make sure there's build up to it. Your party should have different alignments, and each be wary of upsetting the other people in the party. Make sure though, that with this in play, each person WILL be necessary to take down the big bad at the end, and therefore not be subject to combat before the final fight.

#2 Mission and Incentives

Give each player a separate goal regarding the location of the quest, conveniently all related to the same endpoint, but with very different effects to the end of the story if THEY are the ones to complete it. Alternatively, this can be accomplished with a limited number of rewards at the end of the quest, which the party is aware of. A good way to pursue this one is to have multiple parties each offered the same goal, only to discover the payment can't be divided as they'd wished.

#3 Whispers and Woes

Hard times abound when the archer has no arrows, or the sorcerer loses its spellpouch. Times when each character becomes momentarily useless exposes their allies and their enemies, as they will only be protected by those who really know their worth. It takes a deal of planning to set up these incidents which seem to happen at inconvenient times, but act both as character development, and as a sufficent boost to challenge rating without bringing in monsters that could murder the party. Outside of the game table, ask players why they haven't tried to take so-and-so's items, or challenged someone's authority.

#4 Balance and Bludgeoning

Make sure there are enough magical items for the melee characters to stand a chance against well-prepared casters. Equally ensure that casters won't be ganged up on from the start of combat, possibly by making them aware of the truth before the others, maybe by means of magical writings which they may choose to interpret properly to the party.

#5 Seen and Foreseen

Make sure PvP is no surprise. I don't know how much to re-iterate this. It's important for players to have fun in the scenario, but ensure fun comes from suspense at the table, and that betrayals are more interesting than they are cause for an outburst. Suspense is an art form, it's not the same as impending doom, and if players feel like their stories are without control, they won't appreciate it, and nobody has fun.

PERSONAL SUGGESTIONS
This is for things I would do. Not necessarily things you should do, and everything here should be taken with a grain of salt.

Well, you are going to get a headache doing PvP. It will happen, but it's lessened when players take sides instead of all going at each others throats. If for this castle idea you have, for example, two characters of the bloodline to own the castle, and two who own the deed, it will work better, but not necessarily the way you want. Incentive to kill someone has to be high, and owning the castle isn't enough if it doesn't truly resonate with their character's desires. Make damn sure each character wants that building for a reason, maybe even include part of some of the characters backstory into what the castle once was. In this way players won't only find out about the true nature of the castle via clues, but also about each other.

I would include a means to being considered the heir to the castle within the walls by some back-handed means, and also choose someone in the party to naturally fulfill the requirements of being the 'rightful owner'. I would also include a way for something more powerful to take control of the castle, if players fail to do it themselves, possibly promising the castle once the spirit is gone. Also important, make sure you know how the rightful owner claims their prize. If the rightful owner suddenly shows up in the fortress and is murdered in secrecy, this could either be a player's solution to PvP, so that they may simply claim the fortress afterwards, or a PvP heavy situation pitting 'good' characters against 'evil'. Just food for thought.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, just to clarify, this is a 1shot crawler, and most of them threw together their chars in an evening, or used online builds.

The rest of what I said still holds, though it would seem that roguemetal has done rather a bit more extensive research on the matter than I.