A Puzzle Hath Possessed Me.

[Dark Kerman]

Hey, I'm currently in a game right now, 15th level, with no known wizards (though a druid may be partly there and another mage can't be ruled out) and am currently playing a Fiend of Possession (Fiend Folio pg 204). I'm a ringer in the group, and there will be an end fight, at which point I'll show my true colours.

Basically, the problem is this: The party has no way to kill me, as I can constantly phase into objects and walls and floors, and my hide check with outdo any reasonable attempt at banishment.

So, in order for this to be fun for everyone, how would you recommend them to have a solid chance at killing me?

:smallcool:

[CthulhuEatYou]

Do you have Freedom of Movement or would effects that hamper your movement actually prevent you from entering said objects? Also how do you enter them? If its a spell or spell like effect, things that silence or prevent spell casting would effectively stop you.

Edit: Oh, didn't see the reference to the creature

[Hyde]

brilliant energy weapon? would ignore the floor but not the flesh of an outsider, phased or otherwise (though I think ghost touch might also be necessary. that would be a strange weapon).

[Dark Kerman]

@CthuluEatYou - I do so by becoming Ethereal, then occupying the space adjacent to them and attempting a standard action to possess. It's a supernatural effect so can be barred via antimagic. Ah right. Fair. :smalltongue:

@Hyde - The problem is that once I possess something, I effectively *become* it, preventing my from being effected by anything aside from mind effecting spells and banishment.

[CthulhuEatYou]

They are really helpless if they don't get another spell-caster, can't really find any Druid spells that would be affective against you. What about their access to magic items?

[Feralventas]

@CthuluEatYou - I do so by becoming Ethereal, then occupying the space adjacent to them and attempting a standard action to possess. It's a supernatural effect so can be barred via antimagic. Ah right. Fair. :smalltongue:

@Hyde - The problem is that once I possess something, I effectively *become* it, preventing my from being effected by anything aside from mind effecting spells and banishment.

They have no wizards, but do they have any 'casters at all? Bard? Inquisitors?
Diplomancy can be deadly if you run by the mechanics rather than hiding behind the normal "PC's do not deal with each other via interaction skills" bit.

Tome of Magic has a phylactery designed to hold onto a Vestige for a period of time; maybe it could be used to hold onto a more local spirit.

Any magical weapons have a 50% chance of hitting an incorporeal creature, 100% if it's ghost-touch; just have to sunder the thing you're in while doing so.

For that matter, if you possess an object that's sundered, do you treat it's HP as your own?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I don't have the Fiend Folio, so I'm guessing at the mechanics of the Fiend of Possession. If anything I say doesn't apply, please forgive me.

I'd imagine that destroying objects you're possessing hurts you, no? Or, at the very least, leaves you open until your next turn, when you can possess something else? In that case, if the other party members have stuff that's good for breaking objects (pickaxes, maneuvers like Mountain Hammer that add damage and bypass hardness/damage reduction), that should do the trick. Even without them, though, it doesn't seem like you've got that much of an advantage on them. You said it takes a standard action to attempt to posses something, which means that you can't really do anything in a round that you posses something. As long as the rest of the party can manage to destroy whatever it is you're possessing, then you've got to choose between hiding again or actually doing something to hurt them. If they manage to break what you're hiding in early on in the round, then the other members of the party can do stuff to hurt you in addition to that. The fact that you're outnumbered doesn't really speak well for your odds, unless there's a lot of stuff that I don't know about Fiends of Possession, which is very possible.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't have a copy of FF either (its in the mail, yay!) but if the class feature works like possession as presented by BoVD and FC1 then while he's possessing something he's completely invulnerable unless a spell affect is designed to target possessing creatures specifically.

On that note, if anybody's got ranks in umd they can crush you with a casting each of imprison possessor and impotent possessor, both sorc/wiz 4. I believe they're both in BoVD and may have been updated in FC1 or SpC.

[Dark Kerman]

@CthuluEatYou - Magic items aren't a problem, but they have no clue I'm there, so they'd not be likely to hold any items that would deal with me

@ Feralventas We may, but we don't know. We have three potential players to add, one of which will be a Daggerspell Shaper (Druid/Rogue) and we know nothing of the others. Once I'm inside the character, I cannot be separately touched by damaging effects. However, once they got me out of there it would work. :D (I leave in ethereal form). And yes, I effectively become them for all effects and purposes.

"While in control of a victim, the fiend of possession has
access to all the creature’s abilities, skills, feats, and spell
knowledge. The fiend now acts as though it is the creature
in all respects, until it loses or relinquishes control. The
fiend uses its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
scores, but adopts all of the possessed creature’s physical
ability scores. It can make use of its own spell-like abilities
as well. The fiend retains the creature’s type, and is
affected by spells and other effects as if it were the possessed
creature except in regard to its alignment."

@The Dark Fiddler: No, the destruction of my host does not harm me in the slightest, except that I'm ejected in physical form. The problem was that if they were spread out, killing me in that round where I was out may not be entirely feasible. (Also, I can leave before they die). Also- Numbers weren't a problem when I'm in a party member, they'd end up killing of themselves.

Btw. Here is his character sheet for those who are interested. :D
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=421343

[Dark Kerman]

@Kelb Panthera:

Yes, it's very similar, except the rules have been put into class level format. Good idea mind, though the problem is they'd have to know about it in advance. :smallannoyed:

[Gotterdammerung]

Fiend of Possession is a pretty potent class. It has a small niche of counter characters that can shut it down easily. But it is unlikely any of those characters will be present when you decide to do your coup.

Wrest Possession feat from faiths of eberron could slow you down if anyone had any foreknowledge of the impending betrayal they might snag that feat.

There is more than a few ways to get magic circle against evil 24 hours a day and that also could slow things down.

But even stopping your ability to possess party members will NOT stop your ability to possess the house there in and beat them with it and the possess the tree on the front lawn and have it attack them ect ect into infinite.

Some classes just weren't written as balanced. And the DM who let this story line happen either wasn't paying attention, or is a sadist.

That being said, Spirit shaman's, sacred exorcists, Knights of the Chalice, and a plethora of different caster archetypes would have no problems dealing with this scenario.

[Keneth]

Sounds to me like a perfect bad-ending campaign. Players who appreciate a good story generally won't mind the deviation from the boring "good guys kill bad guys, the end" stereotype.

[Gotterdammerung]

i could enjoy an ending like that if the story continued on into the next campaign.

Example: You decimate the party. A inconsequential NPC witnesses the atrocity. Word gets spread to family or loved ones. The next party is filled with characters motivated to train to counter fiends, spirits, ghosts and other monsters of the possession mythos. Spend a campaign wandering the land for victims of possession and eradicating their source. Eventually, find Nocenn the Malific and have the epic final battle (this time on even footing).

That could be a fun outcome, imo.

[Tyndmyr]

Give them clues. The more you subtly weave in, the more fun the challenge. You're the villain. Teasing them with your power makes your ultimate victory all the sweeter.

[Callista]

You say they have no wizards, but do they have clerics? A Protection against Evil spell could really ruin your day--possession would be suppressed as long as it was up. Persist a Circle or get an item which has the effect permanently, and the party would be safe indefinitely and able to hunt you down. You'd have to go on the run, jumping from body to body, trying to possess people with enough authority to, for example, send assassins and mercenaries after them. It's essentially a stalemate.

Personality-wise, does your character have fatal flaws they can exploit? Pride or overconfidence, for example?

[Gotterdammerung]

You say they have no wizards, but do they have clerics? A Protection against Evil spell could really ruin your day--possession would be suppressed as long as it was up. Persist a Circle or get an item which has the effect permanently, and the party would be safe indefinitely and able to hunt you down.

As I said earlier, this would not save the party. This only stops his ability to possess the PC's.

He still can freely possess objects. He can animate those objects. And he can make those objects relentlessly attack the players forever. Those objects do not even have to be rigidly defined. For instance, he can possess a colossal mound of dirt. That mound of dirt will then be a colossal animated object (stat block in MM). He will always be near a possessable object. It doesn't even take him an action to possess the ground underneath the parties feat. It arguably takes a standard for him to animate said ground. He can hide his presence while possessing the ground. So the party doesn't even technically know that the ground is moving because it is possessed. He is almost immune to damage while possessing the ground (he can only be hurt by things that effect his alignment like holy word, holy smite. The other stuff won't even target him or hurt him.) The damage the mound takes does not transfer over to him. Once the party defeats the mound of animated dirt, his readied action goes off. he instantly possesses new ground for no action and animates it for a standard. The party will lose this war of attrition.


About the only way to own him out of no where, with out hints or meta game preparation, would be to have one of the players buy an Antimagic torque for 25k from The Underdark. And activate it while he is in range of the effect. Keep him in the effect of the antimagic field and all of his tricks stop working. They are all Su. He gets booted out of watever he is possessing, and it becomes un animated, and his etherealness is suppressed. Any curses he put on party members also is suppressed.



That is about the only way for an unprepared party to do it. The torque is at least something a character could justify wanting/needing for other reasons. It is a reasonable buy for a melee.




P.S. It's actually kind of a funny ability but
Possess Noncontinuous Object (Su) pretty much ensures that a Fiend of Possession can ALWAYS find an object to possess. This is best explained with an example.

The FoP animates a castle tower. The party destroys the castle tower. Now it is a pile of rubble.
The FoP possesses and animates the colossal pile of rubble. The party destroys the pile of rubble. Now it is a pile of pebbles, rock dust, and chunks of wood.
The FoP possesses and animates the collossal pile of pebbles, rock dust, and chunks of wood. The party destroys that. It is now a pile of fine dust.
The FoP possesses and animates the colossal pile of fine dust...
See how this works?

[Mari01]

An unbeatable villain. Yawn.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An unbeatable villain. Yawn.

It's only ubeatable if you're uprepared. Unfortunately, they -are- unprepared. On the bright side, he's on their team for right now.

[Blind Orc]

....cleric readies action to cast inverted magic circle against evil once your out :smallconfused: then find a way to get everyone out of there before your turn comes again.

[Crasical]

Sounds to me like a perfect bad-ending campaign. Players who appreciate a good story generally won't mind the deviation from the boring "good guys kill bad guys, the end" stereotype.

:smallannoyed: I disagree with so much of this statement it's not even funny.


Subversions and deviations are not the only kind of 'good story'.

Good guys win is a stereotype, but when the players are the heroes of the story, very much not a boring one. If a book ends with all the supposed 'heroes' having accomplished nothing, lost everything, and died, the reader might suppose 'what the hell was the point?'. From the perspective of the player in the shoes of those poor heroes, the question becomes intensely more pointed.

Kicking sand in the players face by rocks-falling them or throwing epic-level baron von buttkickington at them and denying them a righly earned victory because you want your campaign to be unique and edgy is petty.


'The bad guys win' can work in a gritty world, with the players warned from the start that the world is set to cynical and there is little hope of success, but suddenly dumping an unbeatable foe in front of the players for a TPK at the very end of the campaign is a joke, and not a very funny one.

[Gotterdammerung]

....cleric readies action to cast inverted magic circle against evil once your out :smallconfused: then find a way to get everyone out of there before your turn comes again.

It isn't as simple as that.

1st they have to have a cleric, which i dont think they do.

2nd the cleric has to have a way off seeing into the ethereal plain. Which means true seeing has to be up.

3rd when the colossal pile of dirt dies the FoP gets to choose which of the adjacent squares he ends up in. This includes the 36 squares directly underneath the animated dirt, which are underground, which means that even WITH true seeing, the cleric still won't be able to see where the FoP is and will have to randomly guess where to lay his inverted circle. (true seeing doesnt let you look through solid object like the ground)
Not to mention that MCaE is a touch spell and touching an ethereal creature is complicated at best. And lastly MCaE is an emanation which means it won't even reach the FoP if he exits the animated object directly into the ground or some other solid object.

4th the cleric doesn't know when the FoP will exit, which means he will have to stand there like a tit the whole combat waiting for the moment the FoP exits. Meanwhile a decent threat is smacking people around. If he stops readying even for a round to heal someone, the FoP can make a clean switch to a fresh animated object.

5th The cleric has to know that the mound is being animated because the FoP is possessing it, which he doesn't automatically know.

6th If the FoP wants to, the same round the cleric casts true seeing, the FoP can flee into the ground and wait for true seeing to ware off then attack the party later. He can harry them at his own pace so that they do not get a rest and deplete their resources before actually holding ground for the final kill. Nevermind, his character sheet says he has a craptastic spellcraft modifier, so unless he just decides to flee after "generic buffs" he won't really know when/if true seeing is cast.



Again, I think the antimagic torc is an unprepared parties best bet.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As it seems to be rather important here,...

Hey OP, are you the DM in this scenario?

My gut says "no" but he's been wrong before.

[Keneth]

:smallannoyed: I disagree with so much of this statement it's not even funny.
I was not, in fact, implying anything that you seem to have a problem with. I was merely trying to point out that if handled correctly, the PCs don't always have to win.

But I disagree that the campaign needs to be gritty in order for the bad guys to win, or more precisely for the good guys to lose since the two are not equivalent. I'm not saying that a "rocks fall" scenario is ever an acceptable way to finish a campaign, but D&D is not a book, it's an adventure, and skeletons littering the floors of dungeons are a testament to the fact that those sometimes end badly. The possibility of ultimate failure should always exist, otherwise it defeats the purpose of all encounters, and you might as well be reading a book instead.

[AntiTrust]

What about them just luring you into an area covered in ghostwall shellac (Dungeonscape pg35)

"Incorporeal creatures can no lon-ger pass through a coated
wall any more than normal
creatures can. The shel-lac also causes the wall to
simultaneously exist on
the Ethereal Plane for a
limited time, so creatures
on that plane cannot see
through or pass through
the space it occupies."

Lure you in, defeat your current animated whatever, now you're sort of stuck in there

[Dark Kerman]

@Gotterdammerung Aye, running away was the issue, and as I was a sleeper he'd likely steal the silver used for protection against evil.

@ Keneth, this is likely a one off campaign, we're all off to uni this year, and it's not probable we'd be able to maintain a game (Though we are considering using stuff over the interwebs).

@ Crasical - Aye, this is why we were thinking at the time of posting that, perhaps this character best be retired pre-emptively...

@Kelb_Pantera - I am a seperate entity from the DM. Or at least, so far as I am aware.... :smallamused:

@ Antitrust - I did recall suggesting something along those lines, it would have but my escaping escapades to a stop.

@Tyndmyr - I was thinknig of that, perhaps leave little clues, or intentionally make mistakes. However my main concern was OOC knowledge affecting the decision. (My sheet would be covered up).

I think the general feeling is, and it's the one that I and my DM came to was that this character isn't really valid, especially for a ringer, with the party unawares. Ah well, I'll definitely use him in one of my own games... Though admittedly with a bit more warning. :smalltongue:

[Callista]

Sorry, I didn't realize the Protection against Evil spell wouldn't protect against objects. What about the Circle version?

You probably have to find a way for them to attack you in a satisfying manner--whether you win or they win, they have to be able to get their teeth into you, otherwise nobody will have any fun. Have you had a talk with the DM about possibly allowing the PCs to, for example, create a custom spell to trap you within your current body? They don't have wizards, but they do have spellcasters, or can hire them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since you're not the DM all you really can do is start dropping hints, and hope they pick them up in time to develop a counter.

BTW, thanks for not calling me seaweed (kelp) it's been happening alot lately and it's kind of irritating.

[Dark Kerman]

@Callista, No need to make a custom, already is two (VERY) effective spells against me in the BoVD that I've recently noticed. Still have to have the spells prepared mind. However, if Kelb_Pantera's suggestion was followed, perhaps they may have reason to seek it out? Eh. Who knows. :smalltongue:

[Quellian-dyrae]

I'm not familiar with Fiends of Possession, but if the main concern is that you can basically animate objects at will, flight should be sufficient to escape, at least (not much to animate in the air, I figure). Even just running might be fine, since animated objects are fairly slow. Once they have identified the threat you present, they might be able to acquire the necessary magic items or aid to defeat you.

EDIT: Actually...maybe I misunderstood something, but didn't you say that the object you possessed being destroyed ejects you in physical (i.e. non-ethereal) form? You don't look very resilient physically, could they just use timing and tactics to bring you down?

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm not familiar with Fiends of Possession, but if the main concern is that you can basically animate objects at will, flight should be sufficient to escape, at least (not much to animate in the air, I figure). Even just running might be fine, since animated objects are fairly slow. Once they have identified the threat you present, they might be able to acquire the necessary magic items or aid to defeat you.

EDIT: Actually...maybe I misunderstood something, but didn't you say that the object you possessed being destroyed ejects you in physical (i.e. non-ethereal) form? You don't look very resilient physically, could they just use timing and tactics to bring you down?

It ejects you ethereal not physical.

Also animated objects do not have a set speed. It changes based on the type. Some of them move fast, some of them can fly, some can float, some can swim.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Ah. Yeah, that's bad then.

Still, the speeds probably wouldn't be a big issue. Speed depends on them being either small (easier to destroy, possibly too weak to reliably harm the characters if AC is high enough) or have a specific shape (not infinitely replaceable). If you're talking about "I animate a massive piece of the ground and then the rubble you break it down into", you're looking at 10' speed.

[Gotterdammerung]

Ah. Yeah, that's bad then.

Still, the speeds probably wouldn't be a big issue. Speed depends on them being either small (easier to destroy, possibly too weak to reliably harm the characters if AC is high enough) or have a specific shape (not infinitely replaceable). If you're talking about "I animate a massive piece of the ground and then the rubble you break it down into", you're looking at 10' speed.

unless you animate a big circle of ground, then your an indiana jones rolly ball of doom and can go fast.

[Grollub]

Sounds pretty lame ass to me... are you supposed to be the BBEG of the story??

If so, why are you just travelling with the enemy being all "nicey-nicey" for god knows how long..

If you are just an "add-on" to the end fight... lame. All your doing is pissing off everyone else, with the typical "oh i wanna play the game till then end then I win and kill you all"

If you don't drop any hints that your a bad guy during the course of the game.. and its just looking like a "I turn against you suddenly at the end" type of scenario; all your doing is ruining the conclusion of the game for everyone else.

[Heatwizard]

Just nerf it a bit to bring it to playable-boss-fight levels. Here, let's make something up. "When the creature/object you're possessing is destroyed, you are ejected to one randomly chosen square adjacent (and unoccupied) to the corpse/debris and are stunned for one round." If you want to bring it into a different flavor of boss fight, you can take off the stunned clause, and instead have him take damage equal to (the ride's hit dice, some percentage of the ride's total hp, something). Instead of knocking him loose and then pulling off as much of his health bar as they can in one round, it becomes a 'kill all his forms until he dies for keeps' fight.

[Gotterdammerung]

Just nerf it a bit to bring it to playable-boss-fight levels. Here, let's make something up. "When the creature/object you're possessing is destroyed, you are ejected to one randomly chosen square adjacent (and unoccupied) to the corpse/debris and are stunned for one round." If you want to bring it into a different flavor of boss fight, you can take off the stunned clause, and instead have him take damage equal to (the ride's hit dice, some percentage of the ride's total hp, something). Instead of knocking him loose and then pulling off as much of his health bar as they can in one round, it becomes a 'kill all his forms until he dies for keeps' fight.

Otherwise known as the Final Fantasy approach.

[Heatwizard]

Otherwise known as the Final Fantasy approach.

Only if you exclusively go for combat powerhouse rides that'll remove half/a third of your health the whole time. You could easily play that with a large amount of small forms that get blown out in 1-2 rounds.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dimensional Anchor will prevent you from going Ethereal. This will prevent a lot of your immunity to the party, and ability to hide from the party in solid objects.

Invert Circle of Protection against Evil to trap you

Spam Banish until it works.

[CthulhuEatYou]

Dimensional Anchor will prevent you from going Ethereal. This will prevent a lot of your immunity to the party, and ability to hide from the party in solid objects.

Invert Circle of Protection against Evil to trap you

Spam Banish until it works.

No wizard :/

Edit: Me bad

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No wizard :/

Since when do you need a wizard for any of those spells? They're on several spell lists. Druid blows a feat to pick up the Good domain and he's got them all.

Actually, if he blew the feat for the Good domain, then simply using Holy Word would banish.

[Dark Kerman]

@Grollub: No, simply working for him. If I had the intention of just killing everyone at the end I would have never made this thread to nerf him. :smallsmile:

@Heatwizard: I think that's the solution we're taking. Inhibiting some of the more... awkward abilities.

@Shneekeythelost: I now (Finally) know that we're getting a full cleric, so that would be a lot more possible. :smallcool:

I think however that it's most likely we will retire this character pre-emptively, there isn't a good way to permanently stop him from sapping them in a prolonged manner.

Still, I may have use for him later on if I run a session. :smallwink: Thanks for the help. :smallbiggrin: