Gestalt Wizard/_____?

[Serania]

I've found myself with an odd sort of char op problem, and none of my friends seem to have much useful input, just recommending their own favorite builds. I'm hoping a wider community might have some different options I hadn't considered. I'm playing in a play by post Pathfinder game on Myth-Weavers, and I'm a level 1 wizard right now, very nearly level 2. The DM recently rolled out a certain interesting option... secondary classes.

Anytime after I'm level 2, I can spend 500 XP to 'buy in' to my first level of a second class. I'll recalculate my entire first level as if I had been gestalt all along. I'll take the better saves, BaB, etc. Even more than that, I also get a second set of feats as if I was a whole other character gaining their first level. From that point on the players can buy additional levels of their secondary class so long as they have at least twice as many levels in their main class.

Now, I've looked over a lot of options, some that were very good, Dragonfire Adept, an Ultimate Monk build, a complimentary casting class, Incarnate, Artificer. A few stood out, but none of them really screamed "This is what you want to have on the side! This will compliment you perfectly!"

My stats are Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 14. I have a number of unique abilities specific to the character as well. None of them are truly amazing, but if anyone really wants to know everything I'll write them up in a list. It's a Teleport variant Conjurer specialist with opposed schools of Abjuration and Necromancy, all of which can be found in the Pathfinder OGC.

I'm sort of stuck it seems, between wanting to go with a class that would make me less squishy than 13 AC and 8 hit points, wanting to go with something very flavorful, wanting to go with old standby favorites of mine, and wanting to go with something that will let me break the universe when I hit level 10.

Ultimately, this secondary class will never be as big a part of the character as the primary one, but ten levels at level 20 is quite a lot, so it's something I want to put significant thought into.

I'd appreciate any input/advice/rants anyone cares to share, and sorry for rambling on so much. I can provide any extra info on request.

[eggs]

You say Pathfinder and DFA. Should we assume 3e materials are fair game?

If so, Factotum could be nice. As long as you can use Wizard to pose an offense without relying on inspiration points, it's a huge defensive/passive bonus with some useful skills to boot.

If not, I'm still trying to get the hang of Pathfinder, so I don't have much useful to add.

[Serania]

Oh yes definitely. All sorts of 3.5 materials are open, and the GM is lenient enough I could probably swing 3.0 if I wanted to grab something from Oriental Adventures even.

I was actually thinking about Factotum as one of my choices. The way skills are set up in Pathfinder means that I could get... what, like 10 more skills now? That's every knowledge, heal, survival, flying, perform, bla bla bla, whatever I want.

And the Inspirations would work well with Int Synergy.

See I think the issue really isn't so much that I'm having trouble finding a single good option, it's that I'm so spoiled for choice I can't decide what I want to do. Dragonfire Adept or Warlock is always a good backup in my opinion. Artificer could get me a plethora of crafting feats and such. I could just take 10 levels of fighter and get a bunch of defensive junk.

There's all sorts of neat ways to swing it, really. I just can't think of anything that really shines out as better than any of the other choices.

This is the only time I've ever seen this particular variant gestalt come around, and it could probably be the last as well. I'd hate it if I decided to go Monk to shore up my saves and get Wis to AC and such, and then later realized that I wasn't have nearly as much fun as I would be if I had gone Warlock and was buzzing around with Fell Flight.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ultimate Monk? No. Avoid the dandwiki at all costs, and the other two wikis as well. Ultimate Monk uses homebrew, or at least houserules, and relies on it.

Example from the OA version.

WARNING: This progression is not viable due to issues in base attack bonus. 3 levels of monk does not qualify you for Psionic Fist.

Factotum.

Psion.

Warblade.

[ima donkey]

Wizard/monk gestalt is pretty good, the no armor synergy is nice and you get bonus AC from monk and evasion and all that stuff, top it off with mage armor and you will be in the high 20s.

[Menteith]

Factotum's going to be the most powerful option that I can think of. I'd tentatively recommend trying to get the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)in there for a near passive 50% miss chance on all attacks, 50% miss chance on all spells, a passive (Ex) freedom of movement, and an additional standard action each round, but with only 10 levels to play around with, you'd have to lose a caster level in order to reach the best stuff (which probably isn't worth it).

[Serania]

Well, noone says I can't take an eleventh level of my secondary class once I hit 22 in my Primary, yeah? :smallamused:

Honestly, I'm wondering if maybe I couldn't get away with taking the first couple levels of SEVERAL classes. Dragonfire Adept for Draconic Knowledge, Monk 2 for Wis to AC, +3 to all saves, maybe a +1 LA acquired template that fits the character thematically, and then a handful of levels of Factotum, followed by as much Swiftblade as I can cram in.

Cuz' yeah... Swiftblade is pretty awesome.

I think I'll ask the DM if I have to be strictly limited to one class. An awful lot of my preliminary research for all this was based on a vague comment which asked what I would take if I couldn't take a second level of wizard without taking something else first. Like if I had to multiclass for at least one level.

So I did a lot of research into frontloaded classes that make good dips and synergize well with my build.

[Randomguy]

Duskblade and Warblade will both boost your BAB and your fortitude save, which factotum won't do.

[eggs]

+Int to Fort saves is a pretty considerable boost...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that Factotum to its 8th level will be among your strongest choices, especially if you spend those extra feats on Font of Inspiration. That will take you to 16th level, since you need to have twice as many levels on your primary class/side to gain another gestalt level.

Beguiler could be extremely useful, especially if you take Ultimate Magus and use those gestalt levels to keep full Wizard casting. In this case be sure to dip Spellthief to get Master Spellthief for caster level stacking shenanigans. Also get Versatile Spellcaster for spontaneous access to your Wizard spells known via Beguiler spell slots.

If the game move slowly (being a PbP) and you want something that will give an immediate benefit, consider some dips. Cloistered Cleric 1 for Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and the Inquisition domain, plus the ability to use wands of Cleric spells and a Strand of Prayer Beads, is extremely useful. Monk 1 with Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk to get your Int bonus to AC and one of several bonus feats via UA Monk styles can be useful. A Binder dip is extremely nice. Any of the Tome of Battle classes can give you some extra options, such as Iron Heart Surge, Shadow Trickster, and even using White Raven Tactics on yourself every turn, and they're especially good if you count half of your current Wizard side toward your initiator level.

[Serania]

Wow! Some fabulous advice. Thanks for your thoughts everyone. Still waiting to hear back on if I have to take one thing straight through or if I can go with a bunch of dips, but either way I'm pretty much set. There's a lot of cool material here I can use either way.

If I do go single class straight through, I'll probably go Factotum 8 as a few people have suggested. Skills are a big deal in the game so far, and would be very useful. The Int Synergy would be just fabulous too.

[Rubik]

Wizard/monk gestalt is pretty good, the no armor synergy is nice and you get bonus AC from monk and evasion and all that stuff, top it off with mage armor and you will be in the high 20s.All you need is a single level. You'd be better off taking two in unarmed swordsage, as usual.

[edit] Also, take factotum to 11. Ignore SR for your spells.

[Serania]

All you need is a single level. You'd be better off taking two in unarmed swordsage, as usual.

[edit] Also, take factotum to 11. Ignore SR for your spells.

Workable, but I wouldn't be able to get it until I was level 22.

[Amidus Drexel]

Psion has some pretty nice stuff. If you do that, be a telepath and take it for all of your secondary levels. Int synergy, and you can probably use the wording of practiced manifester in your favor.

[killianh]

really depends on the kind of build you ultimately want. If you want more rounded utility the factotum without a doubt. If you want more of a gish thing going on warblade all the way. if you want pure casting power I would suggest either a StP erudite or archivist. Archivist\wizards are nice because the both use int, spell books, can potentially learn every spell, but one is arcane the other divine. StP erudite would give you psionics as well as let you burn psionic points to cast more high level wizard spells.

[eggs]

Mindchemist Alchemist wouldn't be a bad call. Especially if you're considering DFA just for Draconic Knowledge.

EDIT: Because of the intelligence bonus at the cost of a dump stat, complementary saves and +Int to Knowledge (again).

[Wise Green Bean]

The Carmendine monk feat is nice if you go that way. INT to AC and other goodies. Swashbuckler is kind of a fun route too, after 3 levels you weapon finesse, but with INT. And d10 HD is too nice for a wizard.

[avr]

Magus (Kensai, probably) should combine nicely with wizard to slightly decrease squishiness and add a little more utility magic.

[Fable Wright]

Psion has some pretty nice stuff. If you do that, be a telepath and take it for all of your secondary levels. Int synergy, and you can probably use the wording of practiced manifester in your favor.

If you want Practiced Manifester abuse, use Ardent. Something like buying into 1st level gestalting Factotum (Because Int to Attack, Damage (potentially on stat damage, as well), and saves is just too good), Ardent the second time you get a level, and then the third buyin at level 6 gives you Practiced Manifester (which you get before you level up in Ardent), and then you can learn level 3 powers with your second Ardent level. Or just keep going Factotum instead for some SLAs, more Int to everything, and working towards extra standard actions.

[Amidus Drexel]

If you want Practiced Manifester abuse, use Ardent. Something like buying into 1st level gestalting Factotum (Because Int to Attack, Damage (potentially on stat damage, as well), and saves is just too good), Ardent the second time you get a level, and then the third buyin at level 6 gives you Practiced Manifester (which you get before you level up in Ardent), and then you can learn level 3 powers with your second Ardent level. Or just keep going Factotum instead for some SLAs, more Int to everything, and working towards extra standard actions.

True, hadn't thought of that.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Fighter. There is, IIRC, a Fighter ACF that lets you ignore ASF when wearing any sort of armour. You can only ignore ASF from spells who's level is equal to or less than your fighter level. So, with 3 levels of fighter, you can ignore ASF with spells up to level 3. Likewise, with 9 fighter levels, you can toss off wish while wearing full plate.

[Slipperychicken]

Fighter. There is, IIRC, a Fighter ACF that lets you ignore ASF when wearing any sort of armour. You can only ignore ASF from spells who's level is equal to or less than your fighter level. So, with 3 levels of fighter, you can ignore ASF with spells up to level 3. Likewise, with 9 fighter levels, you can toss off wish while wearing full plate.

Or you can be Good and cast Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) for +8 Armor to AC, and no real drawbacks other than needing 1-2 points of Str damage healed, which you sleep off 1 of with 8 hours naturally. If you roll 2 str damage, get someone to make a DC15 Heal check (Take 10) so you heal both in the same night.

Or if you have no friends capable of a DC15 Heal check, are not Good, and can live with 2 fewer points of AC, just cast Greater Mage Armor (sorc/wiz 3, as Mage Armor, only +6 AC).

Or you can spend a bunch of money to make your Full Plate ACF 0%. Way too much cash IMO, but a lot more reasonable than 9 levels.


Don't waste 9 levels on Fighter. Go with Factotum instead, to 8 (Cunning Surge), and possibly 11 (SR-penetration is sexy as hell). If you go Factotum, take Font of Inspiration a few times.

[Socratov]

Or, youncould go artificer and start crafting... a lot...

[Serania]

Or you can be Good and cast Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) for +8 Armor to AC, and no real drawbacks other than needing 1-2 points of Str damage healed, which you sleep off 1 of with 8 hours naturally. If you roll 2 str damage, get someone to make a DC15 Heal check (Take 10) so you heal both in the same night.

Now I feel like I regret a choice I made a while ago... the Luminous Armor spells are extremely cool looking, but Abjuration is one of my opposed schools. I'd have to use two spell slots to cast them.

And yeah, I almost certainly won't be going with nine levels of fighter. Fighter 1 or 2 compliments a lot of builds very nicely, but I don't even have 10 strength to throw around. Given the way the campaign is set up too, it'd probably actually be easier to acquire the Twilight Feycraft Weightless Mithril Fullplate. I'm not the slightest bit starved for feats either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Now I feel like I regret a choice I made a while ago... the Luminous Armor spells are extremely cool looking, but Abjuration is one of my opposed schools. I'd have to use two spell slots to cast them.

And yeah, I almost certainly won't be going with nine levels of fighter. Fighter 1 or 2 compliments a lot of builds very nicely, but I don't even have 10 strength to throw around. Given the way the campaign is set up too, it'd probably actually be easier to acquire the Twilight Feycraft Weightless Mithril Fullplate. I'm not the slightest bit starved for feats either.

Having Abjuration as a prohibited school cuts off your access to that school of the Wizard spell list with regards to your Wizard spellcasting ability. A prohibited school does not apply to any spellcasting from other classes, nor does it apply to spells you cast via Wizard that you did not gain access to via the Wizard spell list. For example, you could still take the feat Arcane Disciple for something like the Protection domain and learn and cast all of those abjuration spells unhindered. If you can cast Sanctified spells, it's by virtue of your alignment and ability to prepare and cast spells, which means your prohibited schools have nothing to do with which of those spells you get access to. A Wizards with Abjuration as a prohibited school can still cast (Greater) Luminous Armor.

[Hylas]

I always thought that using gestalt to make only one aspect of your character better rather than giving yourself more options was boring. So I'll suggest something other than factotum or psion.

Rogue! Rogue gives you sneak attack, good reflex saves, evasion, a little bit more HP, and more skill points than you can shake a stick at. Buff up your stealth check and use rays to sneak attack unwary peasants for entertainment! Why waste spells on invisibility and teleport when you can stealth and escape artist?

Monk! Specifically Master of Many Forms. Monk gives you evasion, excellent saves across the board, more skill points, and unarmored AC which you can augment with mage armor. Pick up crane style at level 1 and 2 of monk along with some deflect arrows and ignore everyone's foolish attempts to even try to attack the wizard. Monk can also give a much needed boost to your CMD. Don't forget the fun fun fun land speed increases which you can stack with expeditious retreat. Remember, you don't need to outrun the wolves, you just need to outrun your friends.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some meta-information...

Gestalting can be a lot of fun. But there's one static you can't alter... your action economy. A Wizard is a very action-centric build, it eats up a lot of actions to cast the spells that make reality sit down and shut up.

Also, a Wizard has a d4 HD and a 1/2 BAB. When gestalting, if you really want to get the most out of your build, you'll want something to offset this... as high a HD as possible with as high a BAB as possible.

One option with Wizard is to give him options to expand his action economy. This, plus the enormous Int synergy, is why a *LOT* of people point to Factotum. The level 8 ability from this class is stupidly powerful when paired with Wizard.

Another option is to pick a class with a lot of 'passive' abilities. Monk, for example, gets some immunities, boosts your saves, and gives you some movement increases. However, it's only a 3/4 BAB class, and really you're only picking it up for some passive boosts. If you do, see if you can get Kung Fu Genius to fly with your GM so your casting stat goes to your AC

Swordsage is another option along the lines of Monk, but better designed. Ask your GM if Kung Fu Genius works with Swordsage, since it says it's Wis-To-AC is the same as Monk's. Here's the fun part, though: Counters and Stances. Passive abilities that actually rock. Setting Sun, in particular, is infamous for this. Pick up Shifting Defense along with Baffling Defense, and you're pretty much immune to physical attack. You can also get, eventually, things like swift-action teleport. I don't think I need to tell you how awesome that is. Problem is that it is still a 3/4 BAB class. Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt is your go-to choice for 0 ASF light armor.

Another option would be Warblade. It has Int synergy, full BAB, d12 HD, and plenty of combat options. However, the problem is that Warblade is yet another class with a lot of active abilities. Every round you use a maneuver in is a round you don't cast a spell in. It doesn't really have a lot of Counter or Boost maneuvers either, go to Swordsage for that.

Finally, there's Druid. Sure, it's only 3/4 BAB, and sure, it's another spellcasting class, but hey... yanno what? You're a bear. That can rip people's faces off. And cast spells. Natural Spell doesn't specify Druid spells, so you can cast all your Wizard spells. As a bear. Ripping someone's face off. Plus there are some nice Druid spells. Give you some healing, some utility... not too shabby, actually.

[Serania]

SNIP

Whoooaaa....

That's a really well thought out argument about action economy. And I recently witnessed a fairly brutal demonstration of how awesome the various Tome of Battle classes can be when set up properly. I've seen counters and stances kicking ass, and suddenly I can't help but think "That's what I want to do."

The GM was just complaining the other day that we're not terribly survivable, even taking our low level into account.

[candycorn]

On the subject of action economy:

There are only three classes I really consider for gestalting with wizard.

1) Warblade. -The actions from this often compete with the actions you'd use to cast spells. However, if you focus on counters and such, or you devote your casting to pre-battle buffing and such, it can be viable. The upswing here is a high HD (d12) and full BAB.

2) Factotum. -This uses your primary stat wonderfully, and most of what a factotum does uses free actions. It's a great class to augment, and will somewhat increase your HP. Things to note here are: Every skill is a class skill, and good buff to your skill points.

3) Psion. -At first glance, this seems terrible. No increase to HP, saves, or skills... Powers often compete with spells for actions... But there are spells and powers to use to mitigate this. Schism, Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike all let you work action economy pretty strongly. Vigor increases your endurance when you need it, especially when you share it with a psicrystal, then use share pain with the crystal. Things to note here are: Psion powers can be used either for action economy or for the brute force, allowing wizard spells to be used to complement them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

On the subject of action economy:

There are only three classes I really consider for gestalting with wizard.

1) Warblade. -The actions from this often compete with the actions you'd use to cast spells. However, if you focus on counters and such, or you devote your casting to pre-battle buffing and such, it can be viable. The upswing here is a high HD (d12) and full BAB.Many of your good counters are things like Setting Sun's Baffling Defense, which the Warblade doesn't have access to. Granted, they get some, but not a whole lot.


2) Factotum. -This uses your primary stat wonderfully, and most of what a factotum does uses free actions. It's a great class to augment, and will somewhat increase your HP. Things to note here are: Every skill is a class skill, and good buff to your skill points.Agreed, but it's the 'blow inspiration for extra actions' at 8th level that really synergies amazingly well.


3) Psion. -At first glance, this seems terrible. No increase to HP, saves, or skills... Powers often compete with spells for actions... But there are spells and powers to use to mitigate this. Schism, Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike all let you work action economy pretty strongly. Vigor increases your endurance when you need it, especially when you share it with a psicrystal, then use share pain with the crystal. Things to note here are: Psion powers can be used either for action economy or for the brute force, allowing wizard spells to be used to complement them.

You can get action economy boosting with Factotum. Psion is powerful, no doubt, but it really offers quite little to a wizard who can already tell reality to sit down and shut up.

[Man on Fire]

Ultimate Monk? No. Avoid the dandwiki at all costs, and the other two wikis as well. Ultimate Monk uses homebrew, or at least houserules, and relies on it.

Example from the OA version.


You mean additional build, not the main one? Not to mention that one build made enteirly from SRD.