Monk/Paladin? Really?

[Piggy Knowles]

Inspired by this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251273), I wanted to put together a build that uses the Ascetic feats to make make a high-BAB unarmed fighter, without going the usual Tashalatora, barbarian or unarmed swordsage route.

My original thought was to make a Monk 2/Ranger 18 with the Shooting Star sub levels, Sword of the Arcane Order, and a whole host of ranger ACFs. It worked, sort of, but it ended up being even more MAD than the monk and still was way less interesting than a Monk/PsyWar or Monk/Ardent with Tash. Then I started messing around with Ascetic Knight, and came up with this:

Mestre Pastinha, Holy Master of Capoeira

Silverbrow Human, Monk 2/Paladin 18

ACFs:
Harmonious Knight substitution levels (Champions of Valor)
Divine Spirit (Dungeonscape)
Skilled City Dweller (Cityscape, trade Ride for Tumble)
Dragonscale Husk (Dragon Magic - I actually don't have the book in front of me and can't recall if it stacks with the monk's AC bonus... if not, I'd dump it.)

1. Paladin 1 (Harmonious Knight sub level)- From Smite to Song, Dragonfire Inspiration
2. Monk 1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
3. Monk 2- Combat Reflexes, Ascetic Knight
4. Paladin 2-
5. Paladin 3-
6. Paladin 4- Serenity
7. Paladin 5-
8. Paladin 6 (Harmonious Knight sub level)-
9. Paladin 7- Song of the Heart
10. Paladin 8-
11. Paladin 9 (Harmonious Knight sub level)-
12. Paladin 10- Travel Devotion
13. Paladin 11-
14. Paladin 12-
15. Paladin 13- Battle Blessing
16. Paladin 14-
17. Paladin 15-
18. Paladin 16- Snap Kick
19. Paladin 17-
20. Paladin 18-

Max out Tumble and Perform (Capoeira).

The net result is...


+19 BAB.
Unarmed strike of a level 20 monk.
Excellent HD (d10s for 18/20 levels).
Wisdom synergy - it powers AC, divine grace, turn attempts, lay on hands, spells and stunning fist. Charisma becomes a dump stat.
Inspire Courage, Competence and Greatness, along with Dragonfire Inspiration. Can trade smite attempts for a maxed out Inspire Courage.
Lots of uses for swift actions, thanks to Travel Devotion and Battle Blessing.
Decent melee combatant, and also excellent party support thanks to Divine Spirit, Lay on Hands, and of course the tweaked out Inspire Courage/DFI.


I'd like to find a way to fit in Words of Creation (my usual qualm with it, namely the [Exalted] tag, doesn't matter so much for a Paladin), but the Int/Cha requirement is pretty tough. (As it is, I'd probably go with something along the lines of 16/12/14/10/16/8 for stats on a 32-point buy.)

Just kind of spitballing here, but thus far it seems pretty fun, especially considering that it's a Monk/Paladin. Any thoughts on how to make it even better?

[Gotterdammerung]

seems fine.

A bardblade seems like more fun

1bard+ the rest warblade + song of the white raven feat from Tome of Battle book of nine swords.

But for a pld mnk this looks good enuf.


Might check out some dragonfire inspiration guides for tips on magic items to buy to raise your inspire courage bonus for extra d6's

[eggs]

Looks good. My one hesitation is that with this many resources tied up in IC, Smite's daily uses might be a bit of a problem.

An alternate of this that was bouncing around for a while used an Ex-Bard dip at level 1 to get Devoted Performer and Initiate of Milil going. If you feel good about the number of uses/day that might not be necessary, but it could be worth considering.

[Feralventas]

It seems pretty solid, though the recommendation I'd set is to switch Monk for Battle Dancer from Dragon Magazine Compendium; it's nothing I have against monks, but Paladin's main reason for boosting Wisdom is for a spell list that doesn't do much with DC's, while Charisma holds power over their Saves (Divine Grace) and Lay on Hands mechanic, so BD gives you Charisma to AC and sets you to one stat for your saves and AC as well as doing great for diplomancy.

Doing so means you don't need to take Serenity (though I'll admit it does weaken your spells a little since they'll still be Wisdom based unless your DM approves a fix to Charisma instead) meaning you'd have a feat-slot to grab Words of Creation if you want.

And it's pretty insignificant, but BD is full BAB, so +1 more at the end of the road.

[Psyren]

Have you seen the Argent Fist from Faiths of Eberron? You can get your AC through the roof with that class (they get the Monk's Wis to AC even in full plate.) They also get some neat abilities such as fists that count as silver and cold iron. Finally, it gives you Ascetic Knight for free (or lets you swap it out for another feat if you already took it.)

The one downside is that it doesn't progress your paladin casting, but that would be pretty weak in a monk multiclass anyway.

[Telonius]

So many Paladin levels...

Is it possible for you to swap out one of your feats for Combat Casting? If so, you qualify for Sacred Fist, a full-BAB, 8/10 casting Prestige Class from Complete Divine. (It's 10/10 if you let text trump table, but I've known DMs who assume that was an oversight in the text rather than in the table). Levels stack with Monk for unarmed strike, so you'll still have full unarmed progression up to level 20.

You'll end up with slightly lower HP (and possibly a less powerful mount, depending on how many levels you take); but more skill points, better AC, better Reflex save, better Fast Movement, and (again, depending on how many levels you take) Sacred Flames and Blindsense. On the downside, you can't use a weapon other than Unarmed Strike.

It's much less powerful than the usual Cleric/Monk entry to class, since the spell list is a lot more limited. But if you want a (specifically) Paladin-based unarmed character, it could work.

[eggs]

Wouldn't that gut the already limited Bardic Music abilities, eat feats and stunt casting even further, just for a handful of skill points and very small numeric bonuses?

[Answerer]

It seems pretty solid, though the recommendation I'd set is to switch Monk for Battle Dancer from Dragon Magazine Compendium; it's nothing I have against monks, but Paladin's main reason for boosting Wisdom is for a spell list that doesn't do much with DC's, while Charisma holds power over their Saves (Divine Grace) and Lay on Hands mechanic, so BD gives you Charisma to AC and sets you to one stat for your saves and AC as well as doing great for diplomancy.

Doing so means you don't need to take Serenity (though I'll admit it does weaken your spells a little since they'll still be Wisdom based unless your DM approves a fix to Charisma instead) meaning you'd have a feat-slot to grab Words of Creation if you want.

And it's pretty insignificant, but BD is full BAB, so +1 more at the end of the road.
Battle Dancer also lacks the bonus feats that make Monk 2 actually appealing. Overall, it's a terrible class, substantially worse even than the Monk. The Dance of Death's Embrace is insulting it's so bad (full-round action to get +2d6 damage and auto-crit-confirm against a single opponent from then on), for a capstone that has such a cool name.

[Menteith]

- Lion Tribe Warrior (Shining South p20) gives you Pounce with light weapons (which your unarmed strikes are), which is probably better than Travel Devotion.

- I'd get Underdark Knight (Complete Champion p49) instead of Divine Spirit. You gain a handful of benefits whenever you're underground (including a movement speed boost), can use Spike Stones 1/day (CL=Paladin Level), gain a Dimension Door use for every 5 Paladin levels (CL=Paladin Level), and gain the (Ex) ability Earth Glide, which lets you move through the ground as if it was water. You need a minimum of 7 Paladin Levels to pick up Earth Glide (which is really what you want from the ACF).

- I'd trade Evasion (from the Monk) for the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil p21). "As an immediate action, you can become invisible for 1 round. You must wait 3 rounds before you can use this ability again." It screws up targeting, lets you flat foot enemies (since attacking doesn't break the invisibility), and gives you something to do with your Swift Actions beyond casting.

- If you can get it, take the Serenity Feat from Dragon Magazine #306. It keys Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Turn Undead, and Smite Evil off Wisdom instead of Charisma for Paladins; while it's from Dragon Mags, it's well balanced, and would help you reduce your MAD significantly.
Reading is hard!

- Dragonscale Husk is nonfunctional. As written, it both counts as Medium Armor and does not stack with any other bonus to AC (I feel like they should have put said "armor bonus" rather than "bonus", but by RAW, it stacks with nothing).

[Prime32]

As an alternative to Harmonious Knight take a look at Devoted PerformerCAdv (bard/paladin levels stack for bardic music uses) and Initiate of MililCoV (bard/cleric/paladin levels stack for bardic music types, add a few spells to your paladin list).

[Answerer]

- Lion Tribe Warrior (Shining South p20) gives you Pounce with light weapons (which your unarmed strikes are), which is probably better than Travel Devotion.
Ehhh... considering how much use the character has for Swift actions, you may be right, but generally speaking, Travel Devotion's movement is far more flexible.


- If you can get it, take the Serenity Feat from Dragon Magazine #306. It keys Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Turn Undead, and Smite Evil off Wisdom instead of Charisma for Paladins; while it's from Dragon Mags, it's well balanced, and would help you reduce your MAD significantly.
The OP mentioned that.


- Dragonscale Husk is nonfunctional. As written, it both counts as Medium Armor and does not stack with any other bonus to AC (I feel like they should have put said "armor bonus" rather than "bonus", but by RAW, it stacks with nothing).
As an unnamed bonus, shouldn't it stack with everything?

...or do you mean they explicitly state that it doesn't stack with any AC bonus? That... oh god, those terrible people.

[Menteith]

As an unnamed bonus, shouldn't it stack with everything?

...or do you mean they explicitly state that it doesn't stack with any AC bonus? That... oh god, those terrible people.

"Your dragonscale husk is treated as medium armor for the purpose of determining your speed and whether you can use class features or other special abilities",

"Your scaled hide grants you a bonus to your Armor Class" (never specifies the type of bonus either),

"This bonus doesn't stack with any feat, racial trait, or other special ability that would grant you a bonus to Armor Class",

"You cannot wear any other armor while your husk is present",

"Your husk isn't treated as armor for the purpose of being affected by spells or other abilities. You can't grant it an enhancement bonus with magic vestment, nor can you imbue it with special properties, as you could a normal suit of armor".

Yeah, I got nothing. If houseruled a bit, it's a neat ACF with 0% arcane spell failure, which is cool for Gish, but it's just awful RAW. As for the Travel Devotion vs Lion Tribe Warrior, it's generally way easier to boost damage off Charges than it is to boost full attack damage, and with Battle Blessing (and potentially Invisible Fist) eating the Swift Actions, there might be better uses for those Turn Undead uses.

[Telonius]

Wouldn't that gut the already limited Bardic Music abilities, eat feats and stunt casting even further, just for a handful of skill points and very small numeric bonuses?

Kinda/not really. As long as he reaches Paladin9, extra Paladin levels aren't giving him much that he doesn't already have. (Music doesn't progress beyond that). So with Monk2/Pal9, he has 9 levels to play around with. Even if the DM lets table trump text, it's a loss of 1 level 1 spell and 1 level 3 spell per day. No loss of 2nd- or 4th-level spells.

I'm taking a good hard look at the Snap Kick feat in the original build. This particular guy only has two levels of Monk, so if he flurries, it's going to be at -2. So say he's built as is, and wants to attack somebody. He can do a regular attack. Or, he can flurry, getting one extra attack that deals (unarmed damage) + strength if it hits, and take -2 to everything. Or, he can use Snap Kick, getting one extra attack that deals (unarmed damage) + half strength if it hits, and take -2 to everything. Or, he can use both, getting two extra attacks, one dealing (unarmed) + str and one dealing (unarmed) + half str, and take -4 to everything.

You're never going to use Snap Kick instead of Flurrying; it hits for less damage, if it hits. And it's going to be really, really rare that you use both at the same time. The enemy would have to have a pretty low AC for that to make sense. I'd switch the feat out for something else.

[Answerer]

Snap Kick isn't limited to a full attack. You can make an extra attack any time you would be entitled to attack. It's one extra attack on a full attack, true, but it's also one extra attack on an attack of opportunity, or an extra attack on a martial strike, or... etc.

[eggs]

I just rechecked Harmonious Knight, and I'd completely forgotten how many daily uses it got. I'm going to take back pretty much everything I've said in this thread. :smallredface:

[Snowbluff]

Battle Dancer also lacks the bonus feats that make Monk 2 actually appealing. Overall, it's a terrible class, substantially worse even than the Monk. The Dance of Death's Embrace is insulting it's so bad (full-round action to get +2d6 damage and auto-crit-confirm against a single opponent from then on), for a capstone that has such a cool name.

If you are going for a Cha character and you need a BaB, it's an excellent choice for a dip. A Sorc Gish with Mage armor and Cha to Hit/Damage can be pretty SAD really easily if you know what you are doing.

[Maquise]

I would like to point out that, if this is 3.5, paladins have a multiclass restriction keeping them from taking more levels after they take a level in another class. It's a stupid rule, and one I doubt many people use in game, but its RAW nonetheless.

Just saying.

[Aethir]

I would like to point out that, if this is 3.5, paladins have a multiclass restriction keeping them from taking more levels after they take a level in another class. It's a stupid rule, and one I doubt many people use in game, but its RAW nonetheless.

Just saying.

Ascetic Knight lets you multiclass freely between Monk and Paladin

[Piggy Knowles]

Kinda/not really. As long as he reaches Paladin9, extra Paladin levels aren't giving him much that he doesn't already have. (Music doesn't progress beyond that). So with Monk2/Pal9, he has 9 levels to play around with. Even if the DM lets table trump text, it's a loss of 1 level 1 spell and 1 level 3 spell per day. No loss of 2nd- or 4th-level spells.

Sort of - I stop learning new songs from Harmonious Knight at level 9, but my paladin levels still determine the strength of my Inspire Courage effect from the From Smite to Song feat, which is actually a more powerful damage engine for the character.

Of course, I could drop up to four levels of paladin and still keep my Inspire Courage at the same level, although it would also cost me a smite attempt.

Hmm... if I traded out Travel Devotion for Law Devotion and went Monk 2/Paladin 15/Shadowstriker 3, I'd drop my monk damage and casting a little bit but end up with one extra smite attempt, plus some minor nice abilities from Shadowstriker. The class has a strong Pelor/Heironeous flavor, but it doesn't actually require you to worship either of them to take it, so it could potentially work.


I'm taking a good hard look at the Snap Kick feat in the original build... I'd switch the feat out for something else.

Fair enough. Extra Smiting might be nice... two more "bardic music" uses a day.


Have you seen the Argent Fist from Faiths of Eberron? You can get your AC through the roof with that class (they get the Monk's Wis to AC even in full plate.) They also get some neat abilities such as fists that count as silver and cold iron. Finally, it gives you Ascetic Knight for free (or lets you swap it out for another feat if you already took it.)

Looks neat, although it requires me to be a member of the Silver Flame, and I'm already a worshiper of Melil and a member of the Harmonious Order. If it didn't have those pre-reqs, taking three or four levels in it might not be a bad idea to finish out the build...

[Answerer]

Bard levels, or effective Bard levels in this case, are a very inefficient way of pumping Inspire Courage damage. I wouldn't spend levels for just that.