Defending against scorching ray

[AxeD]

One of my players is an 11th level sorcerer and is fairly un-optimised. Unfortunately I made the mistake of telling him about empowered scorching rays and he is imbalancing my campaign by effectively one-shotting most mid level npcs. The main problem is that he can cast it half a dozen times a day.

I'm fairly stuck on how to correct this. I can't give every npc boss a minor ring of fire resistance or he'll (rightly) call foul play. If I raise the CR of the bosses, the other npcs will become fairly useless if he isn't there. Apart from raising their touch ac, or using concealment, I can't think how I can stop him from wrecking my campaign.

Any recommendations from the playground?

[Kazyan]

Spell resistance.

[jaybird]

Mirror Image.

[jguy]

Temp HP on the really squishy guys like False Life spell or Heart of Earth. Deflection bonuses go to touch AC, combine that with a good dex can make a guy harder to hit. When they face villains, make sure that there are a lot of disposable mooks in between to grant a +4 cover bonus to ac against touch attacks.

You can make a guy hold an action to dive for cover or fall prone to give more AC vs touch attacks.

If you have a NPC who is meant to be a bodyguard, take the feats Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian from the Drow of the Underdark book. This give the other npc a bonus to AC and can immediately switch spots with them. Combine this with Tower Shields using Full Cover and the spell fizzles.

Abrupt Jaunt for wizards is an immediate action 10ft teleport 3+int times a day, allowing them to duck out of way.

Remember that using metamagic on a spontanous caster is a Full Round Action, so make your guys move around more to break line of sight or make a ray difficult.

For melee guys, Tome of Battle is your friend with Wall of Blades maneuver. Makes your guys' touch AC what you roll on attack. Literally batting away a ray.

Force the sorcerer into melee with mooks or disposable summons to hamper casting. A large monster using a spiked chain gives 20 foot reach so that could help.

Hope this helps.

[Gamer Girl]

Well, at 10th + level of play...it's really not so shocking that most bosses would have a ring of fire resistance or other fire protection magic. Fire attack spells are common, after all. So why would Dr. Evil not go buy a fire protection item?

And six times a day is not a lot, unless your only having like three fights a day. Try to have 10-15 fights a day, and watch him run out of spells.

Plus you can always use the 'trick'. It's easy enough Dr. Evil takes Egor and puts him in the evil cloak and hat, then the character wastes a scorching ray killing poor 1/2 CR Egor. You can also use illusions too.

Have more then one boss. For example, have Boss Hog, plus he has two guardsmen/assassins...so in short three 'boss' types.

And don't have all your foes be 'normal humans'. At even 10 cr, you can use demons, rakshasa, salamanders, slaads and such.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't forget lesser globe of invulnerability. Scorching ray is only a first level spell, and thus useless against anyone so protected.

The trick is to let him use it sometimes, but make it useless other times. All of the above is great advice btw.

[Agincourt]

Vary things up a bit. By level 11, even un-optimized groups can handle many situations.
1) Put those mid level NPCs in a large group so it isn't obvious who the leader is. An empowered Scorching Ray is overkill for most mooks.
2) Look for monsters with fire immunity already so you don't have to worry about about thousands of magical rings in your campaign.
3) Ray Deflection from the Spell Compendium will make someone impervious to rays.
4) Displacement
5) Grappling monks will keep him from casting.

[jguy]

Resist Energy and Protection from Energy spells. Perfectly legitimate spells for a caster to prepare that your player can't call foul on for casting. Potions or scrolls of those work too for mooks or fighters.

[erikun]

Most spellcasters are (understandably) going to have most of the AC in deflection bonuses, which apply to touch AC. 30 AC may not sound like much to a fighter at that level, but good luck hitting that with a +5 BAB sorcerer.

Include more than just a single boss. Larger groups are great for mitigating the damage or imbalance a spellcaster can do.

Sorcerer metamagic is a full round action. Just get a few archers to ready an action to shoot the first spell they see the party casting each round. We can be talking only CR 1 mooks, but their arrows still force a concentration check each time they hit.

[AxeD]

Thanks playground! So many awesome suggestions! I'm definitely going to use mirror image in the next adventure and I'll see about using some fire resistant monster in future adventures.

[lsfreak]

Just don't go overboard with it. You don't want to give him free reign, but you don't want to punish him either.

I'd also suggest adding non-combat or non-direct encounters. An ambush from the trees where he only sees one or two guy at a time, and thus only takes out one mook at a time. Multistage traps (not lame crossbows, but more like RPG-type puzzles). Get the MacGuffin when there's effectively infinite mooks. Talk someone out of a ritual circle. None of these will be solved by one-shotting with scorching ray, but they don't just say "lawl nope immune" either.

[Xiander]

Counterspelling is also a valid approach.

Also effects that make it hard to consentrate. I think there are som spells who produce those.

[Killer Angel]

Don't forget lesser globe of invulnerability. Scorching ray is only a first level spell, and thus useless against anyone so protected.


Well, it's not a first level spell, but your point stands.
Also: contingency, spell immunity (supported by a previous scry) and so on.


Most spellcasters are (understandably) going to have most of the AC in deflection bonuses, which apply to touch AC. 30 AC may not sound like much to a fighter at that level, but good luck hitting that with a +5 BAB sorcerer.

And later, say hello to some dragon with scintillating scales...


Just don't go overboard with it. You don't want to give him free reign, but you don't want to punish him either.

Indeed. There are various way to avoid scorching ray, 'til the point that you can use one different each time and still leaving the player with some mini-boss not protected.

[only1doug]

Ray deflection: L4 spell from spell compendium, all rays automatically miss.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Scorching ray isn't first level? :smallconfused:

*looks it up*

So it isn't. It's a second level. :smallredface: oops. my bad.

[Ranting Fool]

Ray deflection: L4 spell from spell compendium, all rays automatically miss.

+1. If the NPC is high enough to have this it's a very very nice spell as a lot of attacks are Rays (Warlocks) and arn't beholders only ray attacks+mind control?

A bit of Fire resistence is always nice. Then hopefully your player will get the feat enegy Sub (Ray of Frost/Acid) :smallbiggrin:

[Knaight]

And six times a day is not a lot, unless your only having like three fights a day. Try to have 10-15 fights a day, and watch him run out of spells.


10-15 fights a day is completely ridiculous. Even the default 4 fights per day is completely out of whack with anything D&D claims to simulate, but 10-15 is deep within video game exclusive territory.

[Kavurcen]

You could even annoy and slow him down a bit by dunking everything he fights in water.

[only1doug]

1 encounter might be the elite bodyguards, a group of 6-10 enemies of identical stats, he can kill as many as he wants, 1 at a time, using up his daily allotment of L2 spells.

[hymer]

Plenty of good suggestions (and I'm glad you're aware that you shouldn't just arbitrarily make enemies resistant/immune to fire). I'll add some:
Don't forget to apply -4 penalty to-hit if the target is in melee, and any cover bonuses.
Energy Resistance can come in potions, shaving 10-30 points off of the damage. If the enemies know they're going up against the renowned fire sorcerer, they'll be trying to get their hands on some of them.

[GenghisDon]

10-30 points PER RAY. Lowly ER:fire reduces it to an also ran. fire resistance is (or was) the most common resistance in the game BTW.

Anyway, some fire resistance is the easiest & most effective way to nerf the spell, without nerfing ALL spells the character could employ.

I'm kinda surprised the character hasn't run into fiends & fiendish critters by L11. The tend to make the sorcerer cry for their mama. SR, fire resist (or immune), ect.

[Runestar]

At lv11, he gets 3x4d6, or 12d6 fire damage (or 18d6 when empowered, for an average of 63 fire damage when empowered. How is this game-breaking again? :smallconfused:

[GenghisDon]

It's impressive in the low op game. HP typically ranges from 50-94 pre magic/buffs. 63 is a big chunk or all of that.

[Canarr]

If the opponents your PCs fight are connected somehow - say, minions of the same BigBad - then having them use intel of other encounters their comrades had with the PCs is perfectly legitimate.

The GM in one campaign I played in did that, years ago. We were fighting our way through occupied territory, battling the Evil Army(TM) as often as we could. Since we basically used the same tactics in every encounter, and never bothered to hunt down and kill every low-level soldier who ran from the fight, after some time the enemy command had collected enough information on our party composition and favored tactics that they could set up a trap that countered our favorite tricks. That shook us out of our complacency, and got us to switch tactics regularly.

[Person_Man]

Complete Mage has an alternate class feature that lets you trade away Evasion for Spell Reflection. If an enemy misses with a spell or spell-like ability aimed at you, you can use an immediate action to redirect the effect back at its originator. The spell or ability attacks the original caster (who makes a new attack roll using the same modifier as the original attack). If it hits, the caster is subject to the normal effect of the spell or ability.

As long as you're not un-naturally inflating your enemies' Touch AC too much, it should discourage him from spamming the same spell over and over again without taking away from it's potency.

Also, you can explain why your enemies do the things they do via natural selection. If players go around slaying enemies all the time, then the only enemies which survive are those with same defenses against the PCs, and those who have heard of them will seek out ways to defeat them.

[Otodetu]

At lv11, he gets 3x4d6, or 12d6 fire damage (or 18d6 when empowered, for an average of 63 fire damage when empowered. How is this game-breaking again? :smallconfused:

I have to agree, at level 11 a rather large fail chance strike that deals 63 fire damage is rather expected, this is in no way unbalanced.

[Sudain]

You also note that it's a close range spell. Just abuse range a little.

Melf Acid arrow is great for countering scorching ray really.

A) Range
B) DoT - so it'll force concentration checks
C) Land 2-3 of these on him and he'll have to worry about his HP instead of blasting. Scales with CL. :)

[Curmudgeon]

Scorching Ray requires a successful attack roll. Enemies who can't be seen can't be targeted. Use of mundane Hide, environmental concealment from darkness or fog, and spells like Greater Invisibility will all make Scorching Ray a poor combat choice.

[Spuddles]

I have to agree, at level 11 a rather large fail chance strike that deals 63 fire damage is rather expected, this is in no way unbalanced.

63HP is a huge chunk of an NPC's health if you're using elite array and NPC WBL without consumable optimization. A d8 HD and 14 con gets you around 90 HP at level 13.

[Runestar]

63HP is a huge chunk of an NPC's health if you're using elite array and NPC WBL without consumable optimization. A d8 HD and 14 con gets you around 90 HP at level 13.

Well, then maybe start using more stock mm creatures as your base npcs? They tend to be more durable, having more hd and a higher con Classed npcs tend be much weaker than their cr suggests, as you have no doubt realised.

[Ernir]

Just use opponents with more HP. :smallconfused:

Or that is, use enemies with decent HP. Check out some of the CR 11 monsters from the first monster manual. Some have the HP to tank it, some are flat-out immune, and some have special defenses.


63HP is a huge chunk of an NPC's health if you're using elite array and NPC WBL without consumable optimization. A d8 HD and 14 con gets you around 90 HP at level 13.
Most NPCs don't live up to their CR. A d8 HD, 14 Con, and NPC WBL gets you little but being dead if you try to tank, unless you're something like a Cleric buffed to the heavens when the battle begins.

[Alejandro]

The best suggestion above is the suggestion of enemies learning his tactics. If all he does is scorching ray, if there is any ongoing opposition to the group, they will soon learn that, and exploit it. Or at least, I would.

One of my Saga players is a Jedi that is pretty good with the lightsaber. Well, once enemies know to expect that, they're not going to stay close to him if they can help it. Jet packs, sniper rifles, and the like. Not all the time, mind you; just when it's important.

[Venger]

10-15 fights a day is completely ridiculous. Even the default 4 fights per day is completely out of whack with anything D&D claims to simulate, but 10-15 is deep within video game exclusive territory.

this is absolutely true. I had 9 in one in-game day once, and it was horrible, don't do it to your players, it will not be very much fun for a pure caster like a sorcerer who can't really save spells.

[Snowbluff]

Mirror Image.

Bad idea. Scorching Ray can potentially take out an image/4 CL, and it punishes the other players. I second Spell Resist.

[Ghost49X]

One of my players is an 11th level sorcerer and is fairly un-optimised. Unfortunately I made the mistake of telling him about empowered scorching rays and he is imbalancing my campaign by effectively one-shotting most mid level npcs. The main problem is that he can cast it half a dozen times a day.

I'm fairly stuck on how to correct this. I can't give every npc boss a minor ring of fire resistance or he'll (rightly) call foul play. If I raise the CR of the bosses, the other npcs will become fairly useless if he isn't there. Apart from raising their touch ac, or using concealment, I can't think how I can stop him from wrecking my campaign.

Any recommendations from the playground?

Well it obviously doesn't make sense for everyone in your world to have rings of fire resist, but eventually word will get out about this "powerful" fire sorcerer and then it makes perfectly sense for the BBEG to order mass rings of fire resist for his men or find some other way of dealing with the sorcerer (like magic resist or seducing him away before the fight) because he knows his people will have to fight them eventually. Even if the players are really careful with making sure no-one escapes that could talk there is always scrying (all BBEGs worth his salt will collect intelligence on his adversaries) or forensics style information gathering (spells like speak with dead, or spells that let you see the past, or a good old fashion search/perception check)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well it obviously doesn't make sense for everyone in your world to have rings of fire resist, but eventually word will get out about this "powerful" fire sorcerer and then it makes perfectly sense for the BBEG to order mass rings of fire resist for his men or find some other way of dealing with the sorcerer (like magic resist or seducing him away before the fight) because he knows his people will have to fight them eventually. Even if the players are really careful with making sure no-one escapes that could talk there is always scrying (all BBEGs worth his salt will collect intelligence on his adversaries) or forensics style information gathering (spells like speak with dead, or spells that let you see the past, or a good old fashion search/perception check)

Actually, a simple heal check can tell you what killed someone. The expanded use of the skill is in, I think it was, one of the completes. Maybe adventurer?

In anycase, it's child's play to learn how an enemy is killing your minions, and any BBEG that didn't look into this information deserves what he gets.

[The Frank One]

Contingent Energy Resistance is a pretty useful spell, so is spell resistance.

Spell compendium p52, 1hr/lvl and druid/cleric/wiz/sorc 5.

[GenghisDon]

this is absolutely true. I had 9 in one in-game day once, and it was horrible, don't do it to your players, it will not be very much fun for a pure caster like a sorcerer who can't really save spells.

Actually, ****ting on casters SHOULD be done on occassion. It's not even all that hard for casters to have some "endurance" in d20 anyway, with scrolls, wands & staves (usually) easily acquired.

This is actually a major problem for "old school" players & DM's. Many HATE d20 simply for this reason, as they often EXPECT to handle 9-12 combats per session on AVERAGE. d20 often seems plodding to them. The video game comparison is amusing, many of them would be outraged by such a claim, but it's somewhat true IMHO.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be rolling dice to see if NPC's could figure out their minions were BURNED TO DEATH. It's extremely distinctive. Heal check DC 1 or 2, perhaps?

[ericgrau]

Expensive rings of fire resistance would be a good reason to call foul. Casting resist fire / protection from fire or potions of resist fire OTOH are fair game if the enemy knows the sorcerer is coming. Or really if they expect to be fighting a caster ahead of time fire is the main thing to protect against. But not casting it round 1 upon seeing the PC but without earlier foreknowledge; preparing resist energy at all is fishy in that situation and stinks of DM fiat. Not that a few foes won't have it by luck.

Cover and melee also play a big role on spells. With a +7 to hit AC 12 may be easy, but AC 16 not so much. I assume he got precise shot, otherwise hitting AC 16 or 20 to foes in melee could be a problem. At this level +1 rings of protection should be commonplace among NPCs too yeah, and high dex classes would be even harder to hit. Sneaky back-line ambushing rogues are especially bothersome to squishy casters, though others can be sneaky too.

Large numbers of foes also make single target spells less effective, though fireballs become more effective. So what if he smokes one when there are 8 more?

A tactic against spellcasting in general would be for ranged foes to ready actions to disrupt spellcasting. At high levels especially this should be standard tactics for intelligent foes who see a clothy. Enemy clerics who frequently fight humanoid foes would likewise prepare and cast silence targetting a nearby object or ally (so no save). Etc.

Since he's low optimization I wouldn't bust out high optimization solutions. Seems unfair and domineering. Similar power level tactics are also more fun since they invite counter-tactics rather than just accepting what is effectively a nerf.

[GenghisDon]

mass energy resistance is a favourite spell of mine, both as player or as DM. Yeah, it's probably too good, but DAMN is it useful.

[hoverfrog]

I've scanned the other responses but there's nothing wrong with having the enemy keep a couple of spell casters handy with scorching ray to counterspell. If the caster has a reputation for blasting enemies with scorching ray then enemy spellcasters (or their lords) might well keep a few around specifically to counter it.

[hoverfrog]

Also a ring of counter spells, potions of fire resistance, etc are also useful.

[Deophaun]

Ah, the wonders of the D&D Arms Race. If you like a low-op game, I suggest you be very sparing in using nullifying tactics to deal with your ray-happy sorcerer, lest you prompt him to go digging through splat books to counter you.

Yes, a BBEG that's been dealing with the party for some time will take precautions against fire. However, a BBEG is not going to rush out to equip his army with scorching-ray defeating equipment just because there are reports of some random magic-wielding pyromaniac in the area.

[Kuma Kode]

All the suggestions give are good, so I'm going to go in a different way. You could, occasionally work with him on it. Include an enemy that is so horrifying, or in such a tactically superior situation, or otherwise an enemy that must be killed right now this round before he pressed the button that ruins the party's entire plan, that the player's only choice is to blast him with everything he has. That way, the sorcerer finds his spell powerful and useful, while at the same time not actually unbalancing anything because you specifically placed that enemy there to absorb a few rays.

It could very well be some kind of pet ogre or something so the actual creature isn't a plot-important NPC, but it is nevertheless a high priority target. Attacking the enemy commander isn't going to make the pet or mechanical device instantly stop what it's doing.

[Mari01]

All the suggestions give are good, so I'm going to go in a different way. You could, occasionally work with him on it. Include an enemy that is so horrifying, or in such a tactically superior situation, or otherwise an enemy that must be killed right now this round before he pressed the button that ruins the party's entire plan, that the player's only choice is to blast him with everything he has. That way, the sorcerer finds his spell powerful and useful, while at the same time not actually unbalancing anything because you specifically placed that enemy there to absorb a few rays.

It could very well be some kind of pet ogre or something so the actual creature isn't a plot-important NPC, but it is nevertheless a high priority target. Attacking the enemy commander isn't going to make the pet or mechanical device instantly stop what it's doing.

I like this. So what if the enemy commander is getting away?There's SMASH KILL McBREAKTHINGS in your face, and he has a thorn in his foot.

[Spuddles]

Well, then maybe start using more stock mm creatures as your base npcs? They tend to be more durable, having more hd and a higher con Classed npcs tend be much weaker than their cr suggests, as you have no doubt realised.


Just use opponents with more HP. :smallconfused:

Or that is, use enemies with decent HP. Check out some of the CR 11 monsters from the first monster manual. Some have the HP to tank it, some are flat-out immune, and some have special defenses.


Most NPCs don't live up to their CR. A d8 HD, 14 Con, and NPC WBL gets you little but being dead if you try to tank, unless you're something like a Cleric buffed to the heavens when the battle begins.

My point was, if you're playing a low op, mostly RAW game, using classed humanoids as opponents and bosses, then an average of 63 damage at level 11 IS a problem.

I typically ad hoc enemy HP when I DM, as the DPS of a group tends to vary widely, and existing mechanics that increase HP come with too much baggage.

[Ghost49X]

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be rolling dice to see if NPC's could figure out their minions were BURNED TO DEATH. It's extremely distinctive. Heal check DC 1 or 2, perhaps?

It's pretty obvious cause of death was fire but the exact spell used and who used it are other questions that need answering. Unless you want you want your minions to quaff a fire resist potion every time they see an adventurer, doing that would get expensive quickly and even then it would mostly be wasted


Ah, the wonders of the D&D Arms Race. If you like a low-op game, I suggest you be very sparing in using nullifying tactics to deal with your ray-happy sorcerer, lest you prompt him to go digging through splat books to counter you.

Yes, a BBEG that's been dealing with the party for some time will take precautions against fire. However, a BBEG is not going to rush out to equip his army with scorching-ray defeating equipment just because there are reports of some random magic-wielding pyromaniac in the area.

The point of this is to get the sorceror to use some of his other spells rather than just using scorching ray and scorching ray with meta magic, it's not a hard nerf unless you make it so he can NEVER use his scorching ray.

A BBEG will take precautions depending on how much he perceives that character to be a threat and how much resources he has available to that end. I agree that he won't go all out if there are just rumors but if his troops are constantly facing defeat due to pyromancy or even if sorcerer's offensive power is the only thing that allows the players a chance to victory and the BBEG wants to deal a decisive blow he might consider paying the gold.


I've scanned the other responses but there's nothing wrong with having the enemy keep a couple of spell casters handy with scorching ray to counterspell. If the caster has a reputation for blasting enemies with scorching ray then enemy spellcasters (or their lords) might well keep a few around specifically to counter it.

Having a couple counter spell specialists dedicated to shielding his men is also a great tactic, this way he's not screwed when he casts a lightning or cold spell.

Also with fire resist keep in mind that if mook #1 has 10 fire resist, and Pyro casts a lvl 11 scorching ray which in fact gives him 3 rays, thats -10 damage to each ray; so if he rolled 20dmg, 25dmg and 15dmg (total 60dmg) with the resist fire it's only 10dmg, 15dmg and 5dmg (total 30dmg) that's 50% less damage overall. Yes the more "burst" damage you do the less elemental resistance is effective.

[Runestar]

My point was, if you're playing a low op, mostly RAW game, using classed humanoids as opponents and bosses, then an average of 63 damage at level 11 IS a problem.

I typically ad hoc enemy HP when I DM, as the DPS of a group tends to vary widely, and existing mechanics that increase HP come with too much baggage.

And therein lies the problem. Why must you use only classed humanoids? And last time I checked, using material from the MM, without modification, should count as RAW. :smalltongue:

That said, then perhaps the other alternative is to optimise your npcs more.

To summarise,
1) Improve touch AC
2) Increase resistances. You don't even have to specifically target fire. For instance, the dragonhusk ACF (Dragon Magic) grants resistance to all elements. So a 10th lv fighter with said feature would have resist10.
3) Spells like spell resistance and spell immunity.

what did I miss?

[GenghisDon]

It's pretty obvious cause of death was fire but the exact spell used and who used it are other questions that need answering. Unless you want you want your minions to quaff a fire resist potion every time they see an adventurer, doing that would get expensive quickly and even then it would mostly be wasted


Aha, well, figuring the exact spell/effect out actually ought be VERY difficult, although a generic "heat ray" or "fiery bolt" determination is less so. How DO you handle that? a combined Heal & Spellcraft roll (roll d20, add heal & spellcraft mods vs a high DC)?

[Togo]

There's a lot of cheap items in the Magic Item compendium that give temporary hp. And some that heal and a swift action. Use the WBL for NPCs to increase their hp so the scorching ray doesn' take them down quite so quickly.

What it sounds like is happening is that you're putting in encounters that are one NPC who is a level or two above the party, and of course he's getting fried. This is about the lowest hp Big Boss encounter you can make. Try adding some minions, making it less clear who is in charge when the party burst in, or simply give the NPC a huge pet and have the NPC themselves hide, thus saving at least the first round, as the PCs target the obvious treat.

Wiz/sorc spells are supposed to be powerful combat choices, because they're a limited resource that runs out, and may not be appropriate to the encounter. If you're trying to make sure the spellcaster always has a powerful option available, either by avoiding situations that would negate his favourite choices, or by making sure the PCs can rest whenever they choose, then the pure casters will dominate the game more than they otherwise would do. You've got good instincts in not just giving everyone rings of fire resistance, but something like a cloak of energy resistance (1000gp Minature's handbook) should turn up every so often. Energy spells aren't rare, they're more powerful than non-energy spells because they are more often countered. It sounds like you're being mean to your NPCs (no temporary hp and con boosts) and generous to your players.

The other alternative is just to make the other characters more powerful and then increase the CR of all encounters. That can easily get out of hand though, and arms races ultimately lead to less peril and more death for PCs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Aha, well, figuring the exact spell/effect out actually ought be VERY difficult, although a generic "heat ray" or "fiery bolt" determination is less so. How DO you handle that? a combined Heal & Spellcraft roll (roll d20, add heal & spellcraft mods vs a high DC)?

CAd has determining cause of death, under the expanded use of heal. DC 10 for determining that the cause of death was a spell with a visible effect. Since the wording is vague, I suppose a DM might call for a spellcraft check to determine the exact spell, that'd be a dc 20+ spell level to determine the effect of a spell already in place, as per PHB and the SRD. In this case, DC 22.

[Knaight]

This is actually a major problem for "old school" players & DM's. Many HATE d20 simply for this reason, as they often EXPECT to handle 9-12 combats per session on AVERAGE. d20 often seems plodding to them. The video game comparison is amusing, many of them would be outraged by such a claim, but it's somewhat true IMHO.

I think the main issue is one of setting plausibility. Lets take a look at what 9 fights might actually constitute, even given extremely generous assumptions:

Player characters attack enemy, they feign retreat.
Said feign retreat turns into a seperate ambush.
Characters are chased away into another ambush point.
Characters get into a defensive position, then counter attack with reinforcements.
Enemies break and run, only to be pinned against some terrain feature or other and forced to fight again.
It turns out that something was living in said terrain feature, and they don't appreciate intruders coming in and turning the place into a blood bath. Commence violence.
Following that fight, the characters run away, only to find that the prior ambush troops have regrouped against them for yet another ambush.
Somehow, the characters win, and take the opportunity to assault whoever sent the ambush troops after them.
As they return to their home city at night, they just happen to get assaulted by muggers.

I can see this over the course of a month, or maybe a week. It seems somewhat implausible for a day. Take out the various ambushes (which tend to crank up the number of encounters) and it gets even less plausible. Added to that, I don't think I've ever seen it in any media other than video games (though I do remember a nested ambush in Romance of the Three Kingdoms that came to four battles in one day, which is almost half way there in a book), which is why it seems as video game like as it does.

[roguemetal]

Why are people throwing around the idea of "combats" per session? 3.5 was built on the idea of "encounters" for a reason. 5 encounters in a two hour period is about appropriate. 5 combats in a two hour period is impossible, or otherwise very trivial.

Want to know what hampers sorcerers? Forcing them to use their spells for things that ARE NOT combat. Likewise encounters that are also not combat oriented are much more difficult. A CR1 enemy surrounded by CR3 traps and environmental modifiers is much more potent than a single high-CR creature.

[Hecuba]

I think the main issue is one of setting plausibility. Lets take a look at what 9 fights might actually constitute, even given extremely generous assumptions:

Player characters attack enemy, they feign retreat.
Said feign retreat turns into a seperate ambush.
Characters are chased away into another ambush point.
Characters get into a defensive position, then counter attack with reinforcements.
Enemies break and run, only to be pinned against some terrain feature or other and forced to fight again.
It turns out that something was living in said terrain feature, and they don't appreciate intruders coming in and turning the place into a blood bath. Commence violence.
Following that fight, the characters run away, only to find that the prior ambush troops have regrouped against them for yet another ambush.
Somehow, the characters win, and take the opportunity to assault whoever sent the ambush troops after them.
As they return to their home city at night, they just happen to get assaulted by muggers.

I can see this over the course of a month, or maybe a week. It seems somewhat implausible for a day. Take out the various ambushes (which tend to crank up the number of encounters) and it gets even less plausible. Added to that, I don't think I've ever seen it in any media other than video games (though I do remember a nested ambush in Romance of the Three Kingdoms that came to four battles in one day, which is almost half way there in a book), which is why it seems as video game like as it does.

That depends on what constitutes a "battle." Consider, for example, a jail break: I would consider that one "battle" but expect multiple encounters. A patrol or two on the way in, the guards at the cells themselves, maybe another patrol. Then, presuming you're discovered, however many encounters you need to fight out. All in one "battle."

[Serafina]

Potions, scrolls and wands.

If you need to buff your minions, use expendable items. That way your minions have the same incentive as players to know when combat will occur (they can pre-buff themselves) - and players have all the reason to avoid having their presence know, which adds another tactical element.

If your players manage to get a drop on the minions, they will find some potions and maybe scrolls of low value to them. That way you don't have to give them expensive rings or anything. If they don't manage to surprise the minions, they fight slightly stronger minions.

If you want it extra-cheap, use low-charge wands. Taht may not be a venue you want to open if your players are crafters (RAW a wand is always created with full charges), but its the cheapest method.

A potion of Resist Energy can be used by every minion, costs 300 GP and reduces the damage of every ray by 10 (average goes from 14 to 4, maximum from 24 to 14). If it is created by a Ranger it only costs 50 GP (!). That's low enough to be mass-produced with ease (one potion every 2 hours for 25 GP by any 6th-level or higher Ranger with Brew Potion).
A Scroll of the same spell costs only 150 GP, but needs a spellcaster or UMD-user to activate.
A wand with 5 and the same spell costs 450 GP, also needs a spellcaster or UMD-user to activate (albeit with a low DC) AND can protect a whole group of minions.
A communal/mass version of the spell costs 375 for a scroll or 1125 for a wand, and can protect a whole group.
Compare that to the 12000 GP cost of a Ring of Minor Energy resistance, which provides the same benefits.

You can do similar effects for other buffs - look at what your players are using, and equip some of your minions with the same effects. Everything of 3rd-level or lower and that has a duration of minutes/level or higher can be reasonably used as a potion or wand.

In-universe, it's also much more reasonable to equip your expendable minions with expendable items, and while potions are notoriously unattractive to PCs, they obviously exist in the game world, so you may as well use them. Throw in an alchemists laboratory that the players can stumble upon somewhere and the use of potions becomes very natural.

[Togo]

I think the main issue is one of setting plausibility. Lets take a look at what 9 fights might actually constitute, even given extremely generous assumptions:

Meh, if you're breaking into a stronghold, or protectiong a merchant caravan heading through dangerous territory, or tracking kidnappers who have local allies into dangerous territory, you can run into as many hostile encounters as the DM feels is appropriate.

I've played plenty of games where 5 or 6 encounters a day is unremarkable, and on the tournament circuit I regularly saw 8 or more in a single day. One classic set up is the dungeon raid - a dungeon with 16 or so encounters, and you get to keep all the treasure and xp you can get in a single day. It's not intended that you manage them all, but you get rewards proportional to how well you manage your resources and synergise as a team, how well you choose your priorities in the dungeon, and if you're at a convention, how quickly you play.

Of course pure casters run out of spells in a set up like this. They're supposed to run out spells every so often, or else why limit spell per day at all? But then pure melee specialists suffer in a one-fight-per-day set up, and pure rogues are less effective on the open battlefield and so on. Vary the challenges to make sure everyone has a good time. Pace, day length, and preparation time are all part of those challenges. If you're letting people count on only a certain number of encounters per day, or certain types of challenge, you're giving them a huge advantage.

[GenghisDon]

CAd has determining cause of death, under the expanded use of heal. DC 10 for determining that the cause of death was a spell with a visible effect. Since the wording is vague, I suppose a DM might call for a spellcraft check to determine the exact spell, that'd be a dc 20+ spell level to determine the effect of a spell already in place, as per PHB and the SRD. In this case, DC 22.

I'm not doubting your mastery of RAW, but RAW doesn't work for me with those numbers. DC 5 (maybe) & 24-27 sound better to me. To be honest, no rolling & just knowing there is fire involved is all I'd care about for NPC's; the checks are more for PC's solving crimes, ect.


I think the main issue is one of setting plausibility. Lets take a look at what 9 fights might actually constitute, even given extremely generous assumptions:

Player characters attack enemy, they feign retreat.
Said feign retreat turns into a seperate ambush.
Characters are chased away into another ambush point.
Characters get into a defensive position, then counter attack with reinforcements.
Enemies break and run, only to be pinned against some terrain feature or other and forced to fight again.
It turns out that something was living in said terrain feature, and they don't appreciate intruders coming in and turning the place into a blood bath. Commence violence.
Following that fight, the characters run away, only to find that the prior ambush troops have regrouped against them for yet another ambush.
Somehow, the characters win, and take the opportunity to assault whoever sent the ambush troops after them.
As they return to their home city at night, they just happen to get assaulted by muggers.

I can see this over the course of a month, or maybe a week. It seems somewhat implausible for a day. Take out the various ambushes (which tend to crank up the number of encounters) and it gets even less plausible. Added to that, I don't think I've ever seen it in any media other than video games (though I do remember a nested ambush in Romance of the Three Kingdoms that came to four battles in one day, which is almost half way there in a book), which is why it seems as video game like as it does.

The reason I mentioned this is that it is, in fact, often, implausable indeed. Something most "old school" types will never admit & certainly won't like their playstyle shares with video games.

Seeing as I'm one of those old school types myself, I say it in the interest of fairness. I'm never going to lay off munchkins, or rather "optimisers", but a flaw is a flaw, even if I suffer from it a bit.

[candycorn]

Things that weaken/mitigate Scorching Ray:

Concealment (including fog and night)

Water (swimming monsters get improved cover, the surface of the water blocks LOS for fire spells, and concentration checks must be made to cast fire spells underwater.

Enemies with reach and ready actions.

Large numbers of enemies.

Fire resistance/immunity.

Spell Resistance.

Good touch AC.

Grappling.

Status effects/debuffs (stun, nausea, fear, dazed, confused, feebleminded, blinded, deafened.

Silence.

the Ray Deflection Spell.

Temporary HP, such as from Vigor.

For example, a level 13 psion with a psicrystal, a fully augmented vigor shared with it, and the share pain power, targeting the psicrystal? Both the psion and his psicrystal have 65 temporary HP, and all damage to the psion is halved, with the other half going to the psicrystal. After 2 castings of scorching ray, when the temp HP are depleted, manifest shared vigor again, and you're good to go. Such a character could absorb a lot of punishment before going down.

[GenghisDon]

Meh, if you're breaking into a stronghold, or protectiong a merchant caravan heading through dangerous territory, or tracking kidnappers who have local allies into dangerous territory, you can run into as many hostile encounters as the DM feels is appropriate.

I've played plenty of games where 5 or 6 encounters a day is unremarkable, and on the tournament circuit I regularly saw 8 or more in a single day. One classic set up is the dungeon raid - a dungeon with 16 or so encounters, and you get to keep all the treasure and xp you can get in a single day. It's not intended that you manage them all, but you get rewards proportional to how well you manage your resources and synergise as a team, how well you choose your priorities in the dungeon, and if you're at a convention, how quickly you play.

Of course pure casters run out of spells in a set up like this. They're supposed to run out spells every so often, or else why limit spell per day at all? But then pure melee specialists suffer in a one-fight-per-day set up, and pure rogues are less effective on the open battlefield and so on. Vary the challenges to make sure everyone has a good time. Pace, day length, and preparation time are all part of those challenges. If you're letting people count on only a certain number of encounters per day, or certain types of challenge, you're giving them a huge advantage.

My lack of multi-quote fu skills continues to anoy...

This is the essence of the problem. The PC's generally CANNOT complete a smallish dungeon of 12-24 rooms (half empty) in a sesssion (or 2)...the kick in the door, dungeon crasher style is mired in mollasses.

Much as the tourney dungeon raid you describe, but with a "win" encounter/loot room in there. It's the most basic of all RPG scenarios, and it doesn't run well in d20. That bothers some (old) people.

Avoiding combat was often the best way to go BITD also, but d20 characters would have to avoid pretty much all combat, not because it would be too challenging, but because it takes too much time in real life.

It's a fine line to "walk", game design-wise.

And yes, those gawds-awefully powerful spell chuckers everyone in d20 complains are so much better than mundanes, they ALL get brought back to earth right fast, while "mundanes" keep them alive/pick up their slack in turn (balance, who'd have guess it possible?).

[Agincourt]

Enemies with reach and ready actions.

I agree with most of your list, but don't understand this one. Why would a spellcaster use a spell with close range 10 feet away from anyone? A sorcerer metamagicking a spell still gets a 5' step.

[Kelb_Panthera]

@GhengisDon: If you want to ignore RAW that's your prerogative. Just hope that your DM agrees, or if you are the DM that your players don't get into a snit over it.

Multiquoting is accomplished by clicking those little quote marks at the bottom-right corner of a post, which should turn them from brown to green, followed by clicking the post reply button at the bottom of the thread.

[darni]

Something you might want to do to force him to use other tactics sometimes, without given anti-scorching-ray specific advantages to opponents, is use the scenario.

He has to do an attack roll to fire an scorching rays and he's probably some change to miss. You can make the penalties for missing heavy enaough to make him think twice if he wants to take the risk. Some examples off the top of my head:


Hostages tied behind the opponents. A miss has a chance to burn them
An encounter in a castle made of paper (unpractical, but may be cool fantasy)
More realistic than above, a room full of hanging silk drapes, that probably turn into a large fire in the whole room if hit by accident
An oil depot. Hit some vats/tanks and burning oils to the knees fills the scenario.
A fight while their ship is being boarded, and there are a lot of masts/ropes/sails that could leave the ship heavily damage and/or on fire if hit.


I'm sure you can extend the idea to something fitting your campaign. And if he messes up a bit once (using scorching ray and setting on fire something thet he shouldn't), it might make it a memorable encounter :smallwink:

[GenghisDon]

@GhengisDon: If you want to ignore RAW that's your prerogative.

I know. I do. I highly recomend it in many areas. Where was I advocating that in this topic BTW?


Just hope that your DM agrees, or if you are the DM that your players don't get into a snit over it.

I DM. Sometimes player(s) get into snits over all manner of things (what exactly were you thinking of?). When I play I try not to do so myself.


Multiquoting is accomplished by clicking those little quote marks at the bottom-right corner of a post, which should turn them from brown to green, followed by clicking the post reply button at the bottom of the thread.

Thanks, Ill try to remember that.

[only1doug]

Things that weaken/mitigate Scorching Ray:

Concealment (including fog and night)

Water (swimming monsters get improved cover, the surface of the water blocks LOS for fire spells, and concentration checks must be made to cast fire spells underwater.

Enemies with reach and ready actions.

Large numbers of enemies.

Fire resistance/immunity.

Spell Resistance.

Good touch AC.

Grappling.

Status effects/debuffs (stun, nausea, fear, dazed, confused, feebleminded, blinded, deafened.

Silence.

the Ray Deflection Spell.

Temporary HP, such as from Vigor.

For example, a level 13 psion with a psicrystal, a fully augmented vigor shared with it, and the share pain power, targeting the psicrystal? Both the psion and his psicrystal have 65 temporary HP, and all damage to the psion is halved, with the other half going to the psicrystal. After 2 castings of scorching ray, when the temp HP are depleted, manifest shared vigor again, and you're good to go. Such a character could absorb a lot of punishment before going down.

Spells that grant miss chance,
Other effects giving miss chance.


I'd consider an elemental linked adventure, go retrieve the mcguffin from each of the 5 elementally linked zones. In each zone spells of that element are easier to cast (1 free level of metamagic or cast as one level lower) but the opposing element is harder to use (as if there is already 1 level of metamagic applied). (The free metamagic doesn't help the party much though as most of the creatures in the zone are immune to that element). So both fire and ice zones would mess with the scorching ray.
Given sufficient warning (maybe run the sonic, acid and lightning zones first) the player should anticipate the issue and be ready to use different spells for the fire and ice zones.
Each zone could also have an ongoing damage effect of its elemental type (making resist energy nearly essential).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know. I do. I highly recomend it in many areas. Where was I advocating that in this topic BTW?



I DM. Sometimes player(s) get into snits over all manner of things (what exactly were you thinking of?). When I play I try not to do so myself.



Thanks, Ill try to remember that.

I was referring to your disagreement with the dc's to determine that the exact cause of creature's death was a scorching ray, specifically Heal DC10, and Spellcraft DC22. You apparently thought that the heal was too high, and the spellcraft too low, but those are the RAW numbers.

[Serafina]

Or just give some minions potions that protect against fire.
(or any of the other methods described in my last post)
It's not like Fire is a rare element where you have to justify enemies having such a precaution. Heck, place a few fire-traps in the area and it becomes perfectly sensible.

That destroys that one specific tactic - Scorching Ray. Because it deals more damage by achieving more hits is much more affected than, say, a Fireball. All the other spells are also unaffected, and more importantly no one else in the group is hampered by it.
You can even adjust it as you like - only certain minions carry the potions, so the player can still use his tactic, just not all the time.

Yes, it can also be done my massively altering the campaign, or hand out buffs that work less well (a 20% miss chance is a 20% reduction, 10 fire resistiance are about 60&) and affect other people (20% miss chance affects melee or ranged more than spellcasters, and hurts precision damage users such as rogues even more.)

But if you want to specifically weaken Scorching Ray, then fire resistaince beats it all.


Naturally that works for bosses (any kind of enemy really) as well.

[Togo]

I was referring to your disagreement with the dc's to determine that the exact cause of creature's death was a scorching ray, specifically Heal DC10, and Spellcraft DC22. You apparently thought that the heal was too high, and the spellcraft too low, but those are the RAW numbers.

hmm... The spellcraft check you quote is for a spell that is in place. A bolt of fire that killed Bob 5 hours ago isn't a spell in place. I'm not sure I'd allow a spellcraft roll to determine exact spell at all. You know he died from fire applied to the check, and a superior knowledge of spell mechanics isn't going to help get any more information from the burn marks than that. A better heal roll might, but it's still one of those situations that relies on the DM being reasonable about what the player characters could find out.


My lack of multi-quote fu skills continues to anoy...

This is the essence of the problem. The PC's generally CANNOT complete a smallish dungeon of 12-24 rooms (half empty) in a sesssion (or 2)...the kick in the door, dungeon crasher style is mired in mollasses.

If you have a table of experienced players who work well together, have their tactics worked out ahead of time, and adapt their playstyle to fit the game their running, it can work reasonably well.

It's not easy, but we got through, what, 12 encounters in 3 hours and 45 mins? It's just a very different style of play. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, but it was an interesting experience


It's a fine line to "walk", game design-wise.

Sure, although it's as much a playstyle thing as a game design thing. Like speed chess. The core rules arn't much different, but the approach is.


And yes, those gawds-awefully powerful spell chuckers everyone in d20 complains are so much better than mundanes, they ALL get brought back to earth right fast, while "mundanes" keep them alive/pick up their slack in turn (balance, who'd have guess it possible?).

Well, spellcasters are supposed to have weaknesses to balance their strengths, such as abilities with very specific effects, limited powers per day, and a vulnerability to antimagic/dispel/etc. If you softball the weaknesses, they'll be more powerful than they would be otherwise.

And that's the point. Power depends very much on what kind of game you're playing. The OP regards scorching ray as overpowered, not because of obscure rules balance issue, but because of the effect it is having on his table with his game, his players, and their playstyle. He's been quite upfront about having some ideas that would work which he doesn't want to use because they conflict with the existing style of the game. We've showered him with potential mitigants, so let's hope one of them works for him.