Ways to kill someone with no trace

[Morithias]

I've been reading through the BOEF (yeah, yeah, shut up), and it inspired me to come up with a "Black Widow" character. A female assassin who seduces and marries nobles and then proceeds to off them to claim the throne or fortune.

A changling unseelie fey spark is my main concept so far, obviously we need lots of ranks in bluff and perform (sex) or some skill like that to do our seducing, so i'm thinking changling rogue then go into a prestige class (disciple of Mammon maybe?)

Any ideas on how to actually do the murder? I mean I could just disguise myself as someone else and off them with a knife, but that just seems too easy to detect and foil. I need a way that's almost impossible to trace. Something you would need to use mid to high level magic to foil.

Any ideas on how this greedy manipulative psycho can off her husbands/wives (changling and all)? She's going to be evil so all suggestions are open so long as you don't break forum rules.

[Quietus]

Well, the classic would be any of the methods involving Flesh to Stone, and then the dispersal of the resulting statue. Disintegrate would also be effective; there'd be no body remaining, just a small pile of ash. One Prestidigitation later, and even the ash is gone.

[jaybird]

Define "no trace" - do you mean with no apparent cause of death, or do you mean without leaving a body? One possible route is Fell Drain Sonic Snap - no save negative level. Enervate also works well, especially combined with metamgic reducers. Leaving Necromancy, try some Will or Fort save-or-lose. Dominate Person and Baleful Polymorph come to mind - who's going to think about a squirrel killed by a pet hound?

[Morithias]

Define "no trace" - do you mean with no apparent cause of death, or do you mean without leaving a body? One possible route is Fell Drain Sonic Snap - no save negative level. Enervate also works well, especially combined with metamgic reducers. Leaving Necromancy, try some Will or Fort save-or-lose. Dominate Person and Baleful Polymorph come to mind - who's going to think about a squirrel killed by a pet hound?

"No trace" = No way to prove she did it. You can leave a body, you can have a cause of death. In fact having both of those is good, as it removes any doubt that the spouse is dead (and therefore the courts can't argue "he's just hiding").

But it also needs to be repeatable...something that doesn't make people think "You know that woman's husbands seem to die quite often..." something they'll just write off as weird, or a freak accident.

[Techwarrior]

Polymorph Any Object. They are now a pebble. Throw that pebble out the window, walk away smiling. No save, just pebble.

Disintigrate would do it as well.

Something with no save would be best though. We do need to know what you mean by 'undetectable' though.

[jaybird]

"No trace" = No way to prove she did it. You can leave a body, you can have a cause of death. In fact having both of those is good, as it removes any doubt that the spouse is dead (and therefore the courts can't argue "he's just hiding").

But it also needs to be repeatable...something that doesn't make people think "You know that woman's husbands seem to die quite often..." something they'll just write off as weird, or a freak accident.

Varied SOL spells will do it. Make sure she isn't seen using anything but the most basic magic though, and Bluff to act like she has a hint of sorcerer blood but never got much further then cantrips.

Alternatively, go Borgia and start pulling various poison tricks with Sleight of Hand.

EDIT: Or pump Diplo/Bluff and convince jealous would-be suiters to assassinate her current husband, and "arrange" for one to die in the fight and one to die of his wounds immediately after.

[The Rabbler]

My favorite method of killing people without anyone noticing is to slip Aboleth Mucus into something they eat. One bite and suddenly they aren't able to breathe air anymore.

[Azoth]

One spell to foil all plots...commune with dead or speak with dead...whatever the name of that level cleric spell is.

It let's you direct dial someone in the after life and play 20 questions with them. Screws over any murder plots.

[VGLordR2]

Trap the Soul (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Trap_the_Soul) could have interesting applications. The target won't be dead, but you won't have to worry about True Resurrection/Speak With Dead ruining your plans. Also, it could be pretty flavorful to have a necklace with the gemstones of your previous victims.

[Morithias]

One spell to foil all plots...commune with dead or speak with dead...whatever the name of that level cleric spell is.

It let's you direct dial someone in the after life and play 20 questions with them. Screws over any murder plots.

"The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive"

Thus if the spouse doesn't know it was us....

I'm also thinking maybe some kind of psionic telepath, it's looking good. Mind control someone and have them kill the spouse "in a fit of jealously" if I'm lucky I might get his stuff too.

What do you guys think of that?



Trap the Soul (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Trap_the_Soul) could have interesting applications. The target won't be dead, but you won't have to worry about True Resurrection/Speak With Dead ruining your plans. Also, it could be pretty flavorful to have a necklace with the gemstones of your previous victims.

Now that is just VILE. I like it!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm gonna throw in another vote, of get someone else to do it. Mind control or simply duping chumps into doing the dirty work, will be imeasureably safer, since as a changling, you can appear to each of them as someone else entirely. This also brings up a nice plot hook: the local assassins' guild gets irate about someone operating on their turf.

[CTrees]

I love the necklace of trapped souls. Heck, I might steal that idea for an NPC at some point!

Mind control is a great option. Seduce your way into some other man loving you, then Suggestion to convince him to duel your current spouse... actually a bard could be great for this, taking a performance other than singing, and using Glibness, distraction abilities, etc. to aid the whole enterprise...

Alternatively, go all the way and make a Thrallherd, swapping your minions as needed.

[Psyren]

If you go by RAW there is absolutely no way of hiding everything. The cosmos records everything you do (especially when famous or influential people are involved, which it sounds like your targets will be) and the right divinations will allow your deeds to come to light no matter how carefully you hide them.

So part of this depends on how magic is used in your setting and how admissible divination-based evidence is in court.

[CTrees]

If you go by RAW there is absolutely no way of hiding everything. The cosmos records everything you do (especially when famous or influential people are involved, which it sounds like your targets will be) and the right divinations will allow your deeds to come to light no matter how carefully you hide them.

So part of this depends on how magic is used in your setting and how admissible divination-based evidence is in court.

"Is that so? Well, let's use a quick Contact Other Plane and see what the gods have to say about that, shall we?"

[Venger]

while disciple of mammon is fun, thrall of grazzt works perfectly with the kind of character you're using (betrayer with a sexual element)

advice here is all really good, and I like the soul necklace thing too, it's very flavorful.

My favorite method of dispatch is something I call the Underground Railroad. I've been playing in my campaign for 3 years and have done this no less than 3 times with plans to keep it up. I'm not a changeling per se, but I am a chameleon, so disguise/shapeshifting is a part of my concept too, so this strategy might be fun and/or useful for your character also.

Step 1: Construct a new identity that your mark will trust. If it is someone they already know, that's fine. If not, learn as much as you can about them to see what sort of person they would trust (cleric of their favorite church, member of their dragonmarked house, etc.)

Step 2: Approach them in a crowded public place with your disguise on (ubiquitous tavern is fine) and have a nice chat. This provides a chance for others to see your mark acting as though s/he is in relative safety before the deed is done.

Step 3: In whatever manner seems most appropriate, tell them that they are being sought out for assassination by whatever enemies you feel are appropriate (religious institute, rival nobles, rival adventurers, assassin's guild, etc) It helps if the target does have someone on his back for some reason or the other, who even if they are not actively trying to kill him/her, would benefit from his/her death.

Step 4: You must do your best to convince them that the resources this particular enemy has for surveillance are vast. It usually helps to gesture around the meeting place that you have chosen (either vaguely or pointing out specific individuals that you wish to lay blame or suspicion from the mark on, rightly or wrongly) and that you are being watched right now, in fact, so your mark must play it cool.

Step 5: Convince them that one way or another, in a short period of time, agents of the chosen enemy organization will make their move on your mark, so time is of the essence. Tell them that you have been able to secure a double agent within the enemy network and give them detailed and believably convoluted directions for making contact with this individual, so your mark believes s/he is embroiled in some heavy spy stuff.

(ex: "My contact is the captain of a ship called "The Laughing Lady" Go to the docks wearing a red necktie and approach a beggar who will be waiting there wearing an eyepatch on his left eye. He will ask you if you can spare any copper. You will tell him "All I have is electrum." Pay attention, that's very important. He'll shake his head and tell you that's a shame and that you'll have to go into the ship to make change. He will wave you in and you will be able to see the captain.")

Step 6: This is the hard part. Tell your mark that since the enemy has eyes everywhere, this is the only way to save their life. Your agent is the one "blind spot" in the organization. While your mark may be under constant surveillance, this one contact is the person you (and your agents, if you want to make your target feel secure) know is on your mark's side (feel free to invoke the mark's favored political party, church, dragonmarked house, noble family, etc here) so they are the ones that must carry out the deed.

Step 7: Your mark will likely be surprised that you and your agents plan to kill them. This is the part where you discreetly reveal a scroll of Reincarnate (1700gp and worth every penny) to them under the table. Despite the temptation you no doubt have as an adventurer to save money, spring for a real one (or make one yourself if you have the capability) in case your mark has ranks in spellcraft (offer them the chance to look it over to ensure it is legitimate. after all, you have nothing to hide)

step 8: Tell them that after your double agent kills them, you will wait an appropriate amount of time for the heat to die down (reincarnate can be cast up to a week after death) so that the mark's enemies can see that s/he is in fact dead, and then have your double agent (or someone else, if you choose) reincarnate your target.

Step 9: this is where your news-delivering identity exits the scene. send your mark on your way and tell him to be careful and not to tell anyone about this scheme since he doesn't know who is working for the enemy (since, as you remember, s/he is convinced there are spies everywhere)

step 10: get to wherever the mark is supposed to meet the contact when the time comes. the contact, of course, is also you in disguise as another identity. play as dumb or as smart as you want about what your handler knows, depending on how impressed you want your mark to be about the organization's capability to pass information along across the network. insist on whatever passwords/secret handshakes/etc you told the mark about earlier.

step 11: it's time to do the deed. depending on circumstances, you may offer your mark the chance to do it painlessly (spend a couple of coins on a few bottles of good wine or spirits so they don't feel anything. put some poison in the spirits if you wish for your mark to be discovered poisoned) If you are trying to frame a particular organization or person known for a specific method of kill, then you can tell your mark it must be done that way.(ex: in order to frame the acolytes of the devourer for the murder, you must drown your mark) Depending on how you play your character, or if your mark is someone you particularly dislike, you can insist on having to "make it look real" and killing them in a more conventional way.

step 12: the kill is done and your target is dead, without ever putting up a fight. Here is where the choice comes in. in my experience, this is where I wait a few days and reincarnate them as something else. they get a new body (and if they were old, a new lease on life) and a new identity and are free to reinvent themselves and do whatever they like. they will likely owe you a great debt of gratitude for the rest of their new lives, and will understand the importance of never using their old name or going back to their old life since their enemies would surely renew their hunt. as is, the enemy has seen the mark's body dead and buried, and the mark's real allies (not you) cannot communicate with his/her soul via speak with dead since it's not in the afterlife. they will likely assume that the assassin stole or destroyed it somehow.

however, since you seem to want a black widow type character, you could simply...

lie!

do all this, kill them, and simply don't reincarnate them! this also means you can use the same scroll of reincarnate for every single mark. like the necklace of soul gems, it's a little indulgence for your character, a big middle finger to al the spouses that have come before and a symbol of contempt and memory to the ones that'll come after.

Personally, I do suggest that you actually go through with it and reincarnate them (use UMD or something, you appear to be a rogue). If you do this enough, you will have a real spy network and can use earlier marks to convince your current one if they are suspicious that what you are saying is true. (ex: oh yes, this is perfectly legit. I used to be an elf and the devourer's agents were trying to kill me, but the captain of the laughing lady helped me dodge them and now I'm much happier as a pixie with no one trying to kill me)

plus it offers really great RP fodder for your dm to have all these spouses in the dark and thinking they are part of a spy ring that doesn't actually exist. one of them might even try to prove that they are the real king of whatever (I'm just a halfling who got reincarnated, you must believe me!) but if you did the earlier steps right, this shouldn't happen.

let me know how this fits your plans. I've had a lot of fun with it over the years.

[Uhtred]

Phantasmal Killer will scare them to death, and all they will remember (if you use Greater Invisibility or otherwise hide yourself while you cast it) is seeing the thing that scares them most.

[SowZ]

Polymorph Any Object. They are now a pebble. Throw that pebble out the window, walk away smiling. No save, just pebble.

Disintigrate would do it as well.

Something with no save would be best though. We do need to know what you mean by 'undetectable' though.

Of course, you need to do the polymorph in lots of steps to permanently turn someone into an inanimate object. If you do polymorph them, though, I'd do something for flavor where you keep them all around somehow. Like they are each a different button on your blouse or a different playing card in a deck or something.

[Clovis]

If you're high enough level you might consider 'Memento mori' -spell. You kill someone with but a thought => undetectable. The only problem is that its and epic spell... And by epic levels you should be able to pull this off with other shenanigans, like the ones proposed above.

[chainer1216]

the psionic power death urge?

save or they kill themselves, if done right i can see people not really thinking it was weird, and therefor asking questions you dont want asked.

[ericgrau]

One spell to foil all plots...commune with dead or speak with dead...whatever the name of that level cleric spell is.

It let's you direct dial someone in the after life and play 20 questions with them. Screws over any murder plots.

Besides relying on the victim's knowledge it also requires an intact body.

You'd probably want to change identities every time you switch spouses. That combined with the traveling adventurer's life could lead people to think "Oh, they both just left somewhere or died to monsters <shrug>". "That couple must have left the party and the other two joined. Ya adventuring life isn't cut out for couples, at some point you have to settle down." Or when visiting a new town you assume a new identity, pick someone up, kill that person, cover it up, and leave town under your old identity. It could be the standard thing to do while other party members are upgrading their magic gear, restocking supplies and so on.

[Zale]

If you go by RAW there is absolutely no way of hiding everything. The cosmos records everything you do (especially when famous or influential people are involved, which it sounds like your targets will be) and the right divinations will allow your deeds to come to light no matter how carefully you hide them.

So part of this depends on how magic is used in your setting and how admissible divination-based evidence is in court.

The Spymaster Prestige Class does make you immune to Divination, I think.

Which would make you hell to find with magic.

Probably won't save you from things like Contact Other Planes, but what will?

[Kelb_Panthera]

A point about speak with dead: The spell says nothing at all about the deceased character's soul needing to be available. In fact, it says specifically that its magic calls on the psychic remnants left in the body. The soul isn't involved in any way, and trapping it won't foil this particular spell.

However, if the guy didn't know who the person killing him was, his corpse doesn't either.

[Blind Orc]

A point about speak with dead: The spell says nothing at all about the deceased character's soul needing to be available. In fact, it says specifically that its magic calls on the psychic remnants left in the body. The soul isn't involved in any way, and trapping it won't foil this particular spell.

However, if the guy didn't know who the person killing him was, his corpse doesn't either.

Just vandalize the corpse then.

[Slipperychicken]

But it also needs to be repeatable...something that doesn't make people think "You know that woman's husbands seem to die quite often..." something they'll just write off as weird, or a freak accident.

If this woman's husbands keep disappearing, of course they're going to think it has to do with her (especially in a world filled with magic and similar curses). Also, it will quickly become very difficult for her to find a husband.


There's really no way to stop people from making that connection. Even without evidence, after she goes through a few husbands, it's going to be clear that marrying her is a death sentence. People might think she's cursed, or that she has a powerful magician-stalker, or that she's some kind of malevolent spellcaster.

[The Random NPC]

If this woman's husbands keep disappearing, of course they're going to think it has to do with her (especially in a world filled with magic and similar curses). Also, it will quickly become very difficult for her to find a husband.

Hence, Changling. Thus, no connection to previous husbands/wives.

[Slipperychicken]

Hence, Changling. Thus, no connection to previous husbands/wives.

She will have to win every Spot vs. Disguise check thrown at her, even before True Seeing or similar magic, for (at the very least) months at a time, plus countless Bluff rolls at all hours of day and night. And unless she kills other women and takes their shapes, it will be hard getting a rich husband as a nobody.

And people know about Changelings, so prospective husbands (and their servants, and private investigators) will do background checks to confirm her identity. Other Changelings have certainly done this before, so a quick once-over with True Seeing may have become custom, especially in a time when marriage is more of a business transaction than anything else.

[The Random NPC]

She will have to win every Spot vs. Disguise check thrown at her, even before True Seeing or similar magic, for (at the very least) months at a time, plus countless Bluff rolls at all hours of day and night. And unless she kills other women and takes their shapes, it will be hard getting a rich husband as a nobody.

And people know about Changelings, so prospective husbands (and their servants, and private investigators) will do background checks to confirm her identity. Other Changelings have certainly done this before, so a quick once-over with True Seeing may have become custom, especially in a time when marriage is more of a business transaction than anything else.

You raise many good points. Changelings are revealed under True Seeing, and thus not the optimal race for this venture. I just assumed that part of creating a false identity would be making sure it would hold up to scrutiny, and thus the background checks are dealt with. A mundane disguise isn't foiled by True Seeing and the like, and as long as she stays away from the topics concerning previous marriages (just say the topic of death upsets you), no bluff would be needed. The best way would be for all the previous husbands to have deaths declared accidents, and thus avoid having every new wife being accused of being a black widow.
To enumerate the points needed to successfully be a black widow:
1: Some way of attracting husbands that doesn't reveal your nature (a rich woman that suddenly appears will raise questions.)
2: Kill husbands without the deaths being declared murder (man marries a stranger and dies mysteriously? Multiple times? Black widow is around.)
3: Some way of avoiding connections between you and previous husbands (The same woman's husbands die in unfortunate accidents? She is obviously cursed.)
Those three are the only points I can think of, and I can't think of any solutions to number 1. Can anyone else see anything I missed?

[Chromascope3D]

When in doubt...



...Orb of Destruction.

[Morithias]

What if we made her Vecna Blooded and therefore immune to divination? She would have to be an arcane caster, which would go good with the enchantress idea, but it would negate a lot of that annoying magic.

[Swiftest]

I've only skimmed this thread so forgive me if I give a duplicate answer, but why not use dominate person or another mind control spell? Then have the person challenge a red dragon to a duel or some such. He could write a bunch of crazy dragon-hating poetry beforehand and donate a bunch of torture equipment to the local orphanage or something, just so people are suitably convinced of his insanity. Sure he'd probably get another will save when fighting the dragon, but you should be able to find ways to make sure he fails that one too =).

Pro tip: Get rid of the magic aura on him. Find a way to make it so that he never even knew he was ensorcelled so that even a speak with dead won't reveal much.

Pro pro tip: Don't even use magic at all. Take a trip abroad. Find a suitably dangerous cave. Use a combination of diplomacy and bluff to get him to believe that you left your favorite piece of jewelry in this perfectly normal and safe cave while on a nature walk. Lead him to said giant spider infested cave and let nature do its work. Set it up so that no one knows why he was going there. Arrange to be frantic looking for him for several days, organize search teams, etc. Then find him and be oh so sad. So sad.

[Slipperychicken]

Don't even use magic at all. Take a trip abroad. Find a suitably dangerous cave. Use a combination of diplomacy and bluff to get him to believe that you left your favorite piece of jewelry in this perfectly normal and safe cave while on a nature walk. Lead him to said giant spider infested cave and let nature do its work. Set it up so that no one knows why he was going there. Arrange to be frantic looking for him for several days, organize search teams, etc. Then find him and be oh so sad. So sad.

But you forget the setting! The husband would, as custom dictates, instead go to the local tavern and recruit a crack team of Fighter, Cleric, Mage, and Thief to locate the item in his stead.

If they don't come back, send in more teams until one returns with the jewelry. :smallbiggrin:

[Voidling]

But you forget the setting! The husband would, as custom dictates, instead go to the local tavern and recruit a crack team of Fighter, Cleric, Mage, and Thief to locate the item in his stead.

If they don't come back, send in more teams until one returns with the jewelry. :smallbiggrin:


Haha so true :smallbiggrin:

[molten_dragon]

Here's my idea. It would work best if the guys she was marrying were older.

If she's supposed to be a seductive assassin type, have her kill them during sex. Pick up the conceal spellcasting skill trick, and then just cast something like slay living or trap the soul, or any of the other large variety of save or die spells that kill without leaving a mark on the body. It may take a few tries, but eventually he'll fail the save, and it'll just look like the old guy's heart gave out.

[Sidmen]

Wow, why is everyone skipping over the obvious mundane options?

Drop a rock from a balcony onto the guy's head (unless he is an adventurer this has a very good chance of killing him) while he's leaving. If you must use magic, then a glove of mage hand from across the room.

Find a deadly local critter and slip it into the guy's bathtub, bedroom, or suit of armor. Use some mundane skills to train it to attack your husband.

Invite him out to a night on the town, then have some thugs knife him outside the playhouse.

You know, all the ways that people did and continue to act as black widows.

[The Random NPC]

Wow, why is everyone skipping over the obvious mundane options?

Drop a rock from a balcony onto the guy's head (unless he is an adventurer this has a very good chance of killing him) while he's leaving. If you must use magic, then a glove of mage hand from across the room.

Find a deadly local critter and slip it into the guy's bathtub, bedroom, or suit of armor. Use some mundane skills to train it to attack your husband.

Invite him out to a night on the town, then have some thugs knife him outside the playhouse.

You know, all the ways that people did and continue to act as black widows.

Because many of these are easily traceable.

[Hecuba]

The Spymaster Prestige Class does make you immune to Divination, I think.

Which would make you hell to find with magic.

Probably won't save you from things like Contact Other Planes, but what will?

Actually, it's one of the few things that has a good arugment for beating CoP. Deep Cover isn't a blanket immunity, it's controlled misinformation. They get correct answers about your fictional cover identity.

On that note, I think there's a Faerun specific PRC that gets the same ability in a couple less levels.

[daemonaetea]

Just a quick suggestion keyed off somebody elses. They said to Polymorph Any Object him into a rock, and toss it into the ocean. That's a good first step. The second step would be to then Polymorph Any Object a random rock into a dead body that looks like him. Thus you have a body to show, and trying to speak to dead with it would do nothing, as it's not really his body! Also, a Raise Dead performed on that body would probably fail, as there's no soul to return to it.

[That_guy_there]

Since you're going to be a changling, you go in a disguise (anything other than your "wife form") and hire a handfull of weak assassins to kill your husband. Then set up a situation where they gain access to your bedroom late at night. (Before they show however take a coup de grace on him (being a rogue/assassin helps) while he's asleep.) Once they enter scream blody hell and hold them off as your husband's keep's guards come to rescue you.

[SowZ]

Since you're going to be a changling, you go in a disguise (anything other than your "wife form") and hire a handfull of weak assassins to kill your husband. Then set up a situation where they gain access to your bedroom late at night. (Before they show however take a coup de grace on him (being a rogue/assassin helps) while he's asleep.) Once they enter scream blody hell and hold them off as your husband's keep's guards come to rescue you.

If you kill one or two, put a sword in your loves ones hands and hide your weapon when the guards come in. It is more plausible that your husband defended you to most guards I should think.

the real problem with this plan is that 'levels' are not real within the D&D world, they are a representation of something characters don't actually know about. You can't go to a tavern and hire a level one to three mercenary just as your only indication of weak assassin is their reputation.

[Drogorn]

Play an Elan.
Marry old rich man.
Wait for him to die of old age.
Inherit his money.
Repeat.

Now, this probably isn't viable for an actual campaign, but it'd be an entertaining NPC.

[Chromascope3D]

Oh, with no trace of the murderer... I thought you were asking how to murder with no trace of the body remaining... :P

Still, Orb of Destruction is mighty nice... ;D

[That_guy_there]

If you kill one or two, put a sword in your loves ones hands and hide your weapon when the guards come in. It is more plausible that your husband defended you to most guards I should think.

the real problem with this plan is that 'levels' are not real within the D&D world, they are a representation of something characters don't actually know about. You can't go to a tavern and hire a level one to three mercenary just as your only indication of weak assassin is their reputation.

True. the first half is more plausible.

Yeah, a little too metagamey for some. But in a lot of games I've played, higher/ better mercenaries cost more. Usually price reflects ability... so... its a decent yardstick.

[Rubik]

Of course, you need to do the polymorph in lots of steps to permanently turn someone into an inanimate object. If you do polymorph them, though, I'd do something for flavor where you keep them all around somehow. Like they are each a different button on your blouse or a different playing card in a deck or something.If you really want to be evil, turn them into a wedding band to give to your future spouses.

Or even worse, a marital toy. >.>

[JeminiZero]

In a thread on killing without a trace, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Love's Pain yet.

My 2 cp:
1) Use Clone to create a soulless body that looks just like the target. Unlike using PaO to create a corpse from a rock, this is instantaneous true flesh, and is not subject to dispel or true seeing.
2) Eliminate the target without killing him. There are various ways of doing this, but my personal favorite is: Flesh to Stone, Rock to Mud, Purify Water, Drink Water, Pee into the ocean.
3) Arrange for the fake corpse to be found (maybe in some random alley with a knife in its chest).
4) Bluff (as per usual)
5) Speak with dead will fail, as the "corpse" was never alive and will have no memories.
6) Divinations to find the murderer will fail, because the target is not actually dead yet. So will any form of raise dead/resurrection, since the soul is locked away within the ocean.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In a thread on killing without a trace, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Love's Pain yet.

My 2 cp:
1) Use Clone to create a soulless body that looks just like the target. Unlike using PaO to create a corpse from a rock, this is instantaneous true flesh, and is not subject to dispel or true seeing.
2) Eliminate the target without killing him. There are various ways of doing this, but my personal favorite is: Flesh to Stone, Rock to Mud, Purify Water, Drink Water, Pee into the ocean.
3) Arrange for the fake corpse to be found (maybe in some random alley with a knife in its chest).
4) Bluff (as per usual)
5) Speak with dead will fail, as the "corpse" was never alive and will have no memories.
6) Divinations to find the murderer will fail, because the target is not actually dead yet. So will any form of raise dead/resurrection, since the soul is locked away within the ocean.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a winner.

The only thing I can see wrong with this one is that clone is an 8th level necromancy spell. This requires either 15 levels in a class with clone on the list, or a partner that could betray you. The latter does make for a nice plot-hook though.

[Psyren]

My 2 cp:
1) Use Clone to create a soulless body that looks just like the target. Unlike using PaO to create a corpse from a rock, this is instantaneous true flesh, and is not subject to dispel or true seeing.
2) Eliminate the target without killing him. There are various ways of doing this, but my personal favorite is: Flesh to Stone, Rock to Mud, Purify Water, Drink Water, Pee into the ocean.
3) Arrange for the fake corpse to be found (maybe in some random alley with a knife in its chest).
4) Bluff (as per usual)
5) Speak with dead will fail, as the "corpse" was never alive and will have no memories.
6) Divinations to find the murderer will fail, because the target is not actually dead yet. So will any form of raise dead/resurrection, since the soul is locked away within the ocean.

Clever, but there are multiple ways around this.

1) If drinking someone doesn't count as killing them, by that logic eating them shouldn't either. In both cases they're passing through your digestive tract. And eating someone doesn't trap their soul in your body either, or cause it to be trapped in your urine/feces.

2) Even if you rule that this doesn't kill them, Commune (to a good deity) will still uncover your ruse. A good deity would not want a not-assassin running around disposing of people any more than they would an actual assassin. They would thus answer with the short phrase option ("There is no murder," "The body is fake," etc) any of which will put the authorities on the alert to your trickery, though they may need additional investigation or divinations to get to the bottom of things. The main trick though is that once they are alerted to the fact that your "victim" isn't actually dead, they'll adjust their divinations to search for him instead, which will point them to the ocean. It shouldn't take too long from that point to deduce what happened.

Things get much worse for you if psionics are involved. Whether seducing and drinking someone counts as murder or not, it certainly counts as betrayal, which even a low-level seer can pick up. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sensitivitytoPsychicImpressions.htm) This would be used either in the noble's bedroom, or even the spot where you peed into the ocean, providing a nice, incriminating visual of you. Or they might scan the clone you left behind, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/objectReading.htm) learning in mere minutes that you were its creator. And a high-level seer would just plain figure out it was you, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) Sherlock Holmes/Jeff Goldblum style.

[JeminiZero]

The only thing I can see wrong with this one is that clone is an 8th level necromancy spell.

Yes, but so is Polymorph Any Object that other people recommend. :smallbiggrin:


1) If drinking someone doesn't count as killing them, by that logic eating them shouldn't either. In both cases they're passing through your digestive tract. And eating someone doesn't trap their soul in your body either, or cause it to be trapped in your urine/feces.


Oddly enough eating something doesn't *automatically* kill it, provided they can survive your digestive tract. Its just that most living things usually have to be dead before they allow themselves to be eaten, and many things that were not dead prior to being eaten, usually die in the digestive tract.

But there are exceptions. Where do you think gut bacteria and intestinal worms come from? :smalltongue:


2) Even if you rule that this doesn't kill them, Commune (to a good deity) will still uncover your ruse. A good deity would not want a not-assassin running around disposing of people any more than they would an actual assassin. They would thus answer with the short phrase option ("There is no murder," "The body is fake," etc) any of which will put the authorities on the alert to your trickery, though they may need additional investigation or divinations to get to the bottom of things. The main trick though is that once they are alerted to the fact that your "victim" isn't actually dead, they'll adjust their divinations to search for him instead, which will point them to the ocean. It shouldn't take too long from that point to deduce what happened.

Good point. You could make it look like a suicide or accidental death, rather than murder (significantly easier with an inert corpse that was never alive to start with). Heck, you could cast animate object on it, so you would have a fake corpse that could move around by its own power. And then have him publically jump off the roof of the nearest high building. Or have him step in front of a fast moving carriage at the wrong time. That makes it less likely Commune would be used to start with.

I also rather doubt that authorities, knowing that the target is alive but in the ocean, would automatically deduce that he was the subject of a series of spells that turned him into water. :smalltongue: They are more likely to organize a series of fruitless diving expeditions. Nonetheless, as additional precaution, you can instead choose to hide him away in a place that is human habitable, but difficult to search, just so the authorities will fruitlessly muck about there tryin to find him. Say, you could freeze the water into ice, turn it into ice shavings (indistinguishable from snow), and then spray the shavings all over some permafrost with dense coniferous jungles.


Things get much worse for you if psionics are involved. Whether seducing and drinking someone counts as murder or not, it certainly counts as betrayal, which even a low-level seer can pick up. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sensitivitytoPsychicImpressions.htm) This would be used either in the noble's bedroom, or even the spot where you peed into the ocean, providing a nice, incriminating visual of you.

For everything else... well, it seems that immunity to divinations is a virtual necessity for any sort of secret (not-)murderer.

[morkendi]

Old combo. Flesh to stone, rock to mud, mud to dust, gust of wind. Thing is i don't see mud to dust any more, but i know there has to be something with that effect . Polymorph could work as mud and dust are same element. You could flesh to stone, polymorph to s diamond and have a little keepsake. Collect the gems of all past ones.

[Kansaschaser]

Kill him in any manner you want, but you need to make sure you prevent his body and soul from being interrogated though spells. You also need to make sure you can easily prevent mind reading and zones of truth.

Speaking with the dead solution:

Make sure the vocal chords and/or tongue is removed in the "accident". Then the body would only be able to shake it's head yes and no instead of giving several word answers.

Contact other plane solution:

Since some spellcaster can actually speak with the departed soul, you need to make sure it's unavailable. The weapon used to kill your husband should be something that absorbs the soul (I think the material is called Thinaum from the Complete Warrior.). Then you would need to stash the weapon in an extra-dimensional space so it cannot be located.

Reading Thoughts and Zones of Truth solution:

You need to have your memory modified so you don't know what happened. The best way to do this is to have a Monkey familiar cast it from a scroll using your ranks in Use Magic Device. Each casting of Modify Memory will change up to 15 minutes of memory permanently, so depending on how long you took to plan the murder and kill him, you may need several castings. Once modified, all your thoughts and spoken words would be thruthful to the best of your knowledge. With Modify memory, you could even pin the murder on someone else is used right.

[BRC]

The best way to avoid Speak with Dead/Contacting the spirit of the victim is to make sure the victim dies with no idea who killed them. This can be accomplished easily enough: Strike from the shadows and wear a mask. Or use an indirect method of murder, like poison, to kill them in their sleep.

Hrmm, that could be an interesting character concept. The perfect assassin: you hire them, but as part of the deal they reprogram your mind so you have no memory of being the one who ordered the hit. You still benefit from the death, but you don't feel the guilt and have nothing to hide.
Sadly, your house is burgled and some valuables are taken, but that's a minor issue compared to the shocking death that has just rocked the community.

[Sheogoroth]

Changeling Druid/Master of Many Forms.
You can also go Shifter from Masters of the Wild, which is my personal favorite.
If your DM will let you do it, you can get in early with Godling and Divine Lineage, making the argument that Shifters don't get spell progression anyway.

Max disguise out, turn into the person you intend to kill, walk into their bedroom in the middle of the night, turn into something with Swallow Whole. Some Dinosaurs have it.
Omnom, and have a nice sleep.

Next morning, in the guise of your meal, throw yourself off of a cliff and turn into a fish.

They have no idea who killed them, their body can't be located with any kind of divination, and they can't be raised... because they were eaten.

[Psyren]

@ JZ:


Oddly enough eating something doesn't *automatically* kill it, provided they can survive your digestive tract. Its just that most living things usually have to be dead before they allow themselves to be eaten, and many things that were not dead prior to being eaten, usually die in the digestive tract.

But there are exceptions. Where do you think gut bacteria and intestinal worms come from? :smalltongue:
[/quote]

But at what point does that death occur? When the creature is absorbed into the lining of the stomach? When it reaches the bloodstream? Both things would happen to a "living water" creature. Why does one "live" while the other die?

RE: parasites, those things specifically avoid the digestive process though. The worms for instance find ways to avoid being submerged in your hydrochloric acid. Water wouldn't really have a choice in the matter. (Hell, I would argue that the "purify" itself would be the point that they die, but that's just me - after all, to function, Purify Food + Drink must itself kill the bacteria or any other such microorganisms. At some point you have to choose between RAW and science - you can't have both.)



Good point. You could make it look like a suicide or accidental death, rather than murder (significantly easier with an inert corpse that was never alive to start with). Heck, you could cast animate object on it, so you would have a fake corpse that could move around by its own power. And then have him publically jump off the roof of the nearest high building. Or have him step in front of a fast moving carriage at the wrong time. That makes it less likely Commune would be used to start with.

I'd argue that would make it MORE likely, as a Speak With Dead on your puppet to find out why the ordinarily cheerful Lord Summerwine suddenly developed suicidal tendencies would be oddly silent. More importantly, it wouldn't know anything that he knew in life, throwing suspicion on the authenticity of your facsimile. And the moment they suspect it's not really his body lying there, the whole web begins to unravel.

Death Note should illustrate that serial murders, no matter how coincidental or divine the deaths are made to appear, will appear suspicious to a sufficiently paranoid/detective mind.



I also rather doubt that authorities, knowing that the target is alive but in the ocean, would automatically deduce that he was the subject of a series of spells that turned him into water. :smalltongue: They are more likely to organize a series of fruitless diving expeditions.

That would be the case if the body stayed intact. But turning it into water can result in the "body" being spread across the length and breadth of the Atlantic. Deducing that the body was turned into water - or at least dissolved in it - would be a very easy leap to make.



Nonetheless, as additional precaution, you can instead choose to hide him away in a place that is human habitable, but difficult to search, just so the authorities will fruitlessly muck about there tryin to find him. Say, you could freeze the water into ice, turn it into ice shavings (indistinguishable from snow), and then spray the shavings all over some permafrost with dense coniferous jungles.

Anywhere land-based is far more troublesome for you, since a StPI manifestation, Legend Lore or Vision spell (nobles are "important people" by definition) cast in that location will show you suspiciously spraying "snow" everywhere, even cast years later.



For everything else... well, it seems that immunity to divinations is a virtual necessity for any sort of secret (not-)murderer.

The one trick that might work here is Vecna-Blooded. But Vecna gets the last laugh yet again, since his template is impossible to obtain by RAW.



Speaking with the dead solution:

Make sure the vocal chords and/or tongue is removed in the "accident". Then the body would only be able to shake it's head yes and no instead of giving several word answers.

This is a stopgap - restoring the corpse (at least its mouth) would restore its ability to speak. In fact, you could arguably sew another head on there and still get the info out.



Contact other plane solution:

Since some spellcaster can actually speak with the departed soul, you need to make sure it's unavailable. The weapon used to kill your husband should be something that absorbs the soul (I think the material is called Thinaum from the Complete Warrior.). Then you would need to stash the weapon in an extra-dimensional space so it cannot be located.

That would keep the soul from being interrogated directly, but CoP could still reveal important information. You have a better shot here than with Commune though, since CoP respondents "resent" the contact.



Reading Thoughts and Zones of Truth solution:

You need to have your memory modified so you don't know what happened. The best way to do this is to have a Monkey familiar cast it from a scroll using your ranks in Use Magic Device. Each casting of Modify Memory will change up to 15 minutes of memory permanently, so depending on how long you took to plan the murder and kill him, you may need several castings. Once modified, all your thoughts and spoken words would be thruthful to the best of your knowledge. With Modify memory, you could even pin the murder on someone else is used right.

This one flat out doesn't work. The duration of Modify Memory is permanent, not instantaneous - this makes it subject to the stacking rules, because the original casting is still in effect. Effects from the same source do not stack unless specifically noted otherwise, ergo you can never get more than 5 minutes of modification out of it. Worse still, any apprentice or hedge mage with detect magic will be able to tell you're walking around with a mind-affecting compulsion on, which will raise plenty of red flags itself (though they may think you a potential victim at first rather than the culprit.) And you are one dispel/AMF away from regaining your memory.

[Slipperychicken]

Whatever you do, make sure you don't piss anyone off enough to cast Hindsight (complete adventurer, Sorc/Wiz 9, Bard 6, 1000gp material component) on the crimescene. It lets you look into the past, with remarkable accuracy for the past few days, and they might be able to get an ID for weeks or maybe months.