Pathfinder: Rogue with natural weapons

[Xanman]

So I was toying with a build in my head and wanted to get some feedback from people if this works at all. I am not so interested in the total to hit and damage I end up, just if its possible by the rules. For this example I will use the Tengus with the Claw Attack Alt racial trait.

So the race ends up with 3 natural attacks. Pretty good for a lvl 1 rogue. Now, if you use a weapon a weapon, all natural attacks end up being secondary attacks. So lets get the Imp. Unarmed Strike feat and use an unarmed attack as our main. Lets say a kick for arguments sake. Add on Multiattack feat and those 3 natural attacks occur at a -2 now instead of a -5.

This next part is based off of 3.5 FAQ and I am not positive it applied to PF. You could TWF with unarmed attacks. You take all the normal penalties and require the feats but it still works. So you could make a TWF rogue build with the two extra feats built in (Imp Unarmed and Multiattack). Now you end up with 3 main attacks, 3 off hand attacks, and 3 natural attacks. All of which use your body so you can never get disarmed, all of which can make use of sneak attack.

Is there anything here that breaks the rules? If so, please inform me. I am rather curious.

[Andvare]

So I was toying with a build in my head and wanted to get some feedback from people if this works at all. I am not so interested in the total to hit and damage I end up, just if its possible by the rules. For this example I will use the Tengus with the Claw Attack Alt racial trait.

So the race ends up with 3 natural attacks. Pretty good for a lvl 1 rogue. Now, if you use a weapon a weapon, all natural attacks end up being secondary attacks. So lets get the Imp. Unarmed Strike feat and use an unarmed attack as our main. Lets say a kick for arguments sake. Add on Multiattack feat and those 3 natural attacks occur at a -2 now instead of a -5.

This next part is based off of 3.5 FAQ and I am not positive it applied to PF. You could TWF with unarmed attacks. You take all the normal penalties and require the feats but it still works. So you could make a TWF rogue build with the two extra feats built in (Imp Unarmed and Multiattack). Now you end up with 3 main attacks, 3 off hand attacks, and 3 natural attacks. All of which use your body so you can never get disarmed, all of which can make use of sneak attack.

Is there anything here that breaks the rules? If so, please inform me. I am rather curious.

Yes, that is not how TWF works.
Natural weapon != unarmed attack
And in Pathfinder, you cannot use TWF with anything but weapons.

However, by RAW, there is no reason I can see that you cannot claim that the claws are on your feet (see the Summoner's Eidolon for more on this), and as such doesn't hamper your weapon fighting. This would depend on your DM's leniency though.
This could give you two weapon attack, one main hand, one off-hand, and three natural weapon (secondary) attacks. All at -2 to hit with TWF +light weapon and multi-attack.
The natural weapon attacks are mighty weak though, at 1d3+½str.

But if you really want to cheese this out, just go with a dip in Summoner/Synthesist, and let that handle your need for more attacks and better physical stats.

Edit: Some confusion here, I didn't mean a short dib in Synthesist, because that doesn't work. A Rogue/Synthesist can work wonders. You won't get all that high a Sneak attack, but since you can skimp on most attributes, you can easily afford a high int, and be a skill-monkey-fighter.

[The Gilded Duke]

I think you could actually make it work with two handless weapons. You could set your Tengu up with his two claws, a dwarven helmet from the advance race guide, and armor spikes or gauntlets. Then TWF the helmet and the spikes with the claws as secondary natural attacks. If you somehow had a third hand, maybe with a Vivisectionist Alchemist build, then you would qualify for Multi-weapon fighting as well. Pick up Unarmed Strike eventually, and then do:

Primary: Unarmed Strike
Offhand: Dwarven Helmet, Armor Spikes, Gauntlets
Secondary Natural: Claw, Claw, Bite

With then additional vivisectionist discoveries stuff to pick up more natural weapons.

Maybe something like this:
Alchemist Vivisectionist
1. Feat- Multi-Attack
2. Discovery- Vestigial Arm
3. Feat - Multi-Weapon Fighting
4. Discovery - Vestigial Arm x2
5. Feat - EWP Thorn Bracer
6. Discovery - Preserve Organs
7. Feat -EWP Dwarven Boulder Helmet
8. Discovery -Alchemical Simulacrum
9. Feat - MWP - Armor Spikes
10. Discovery - Mummification
11. Improved Unarmed Strike

And 5d6 Sneak Attack

Gives a good idea of what is possible with a Tengu Vivisectionist Alchemist.
You get:
Two Unarmed Strikes
Offhand Thorn Bracer, Thorn Bracer, Offhand Armor Spikes, Offhand Dwarven Boulder Helmet.
Secondary Bite, Secondary Claw, Secondary Claw

And you have both of your vestigial hands free to hold a shield or drink potions. You can also make copies of yourself, and are immune to nonlethal damage, cold damage, paralysis, and sleep. The vestigial arms don't actually give you extra attacks, but they do let you meet the 3 or more arm requirement of Multiweapon Fighting. Thorn Bracers specifically only take one hand to use, and that hand can hold other items. Armor Spikes and the Helmet take no hands at all.

Sadly there isn't more alchemist stuff to get you more natural attacks then you already have, but mutagens will help with your stats.

[Larpus]

The Vestigial Arm can actually work to free the natural weapons.

It's poorly worded so any DM might rule one way or the other, but in the text it says that it doesn't give you extra attacks/actions.

From the way it's worded, I read as "no extra weapon attacks without penalty" and that's most probably what they were trying to prevent (especially once you consider that Bombs count as weapons).

However, if you hold (and attack) using your vestigial arm, freeing your claws, you're not having "extra attacks/actions", as you're entitled to do as many natural attacks as you have as long as that particular limb hasn't attacked yet nor is otherwise busy (which is why you can make a claw attack even when using a two hand weapon).

EDIT: Plus, there is absolutely no clause in the Vestigial Arms (or Tentacle, for that matter) that says you can't use them to attack and do the YMCA with your actual arms, in fact, both say you can use them as well as your normal arms.

But I can see some DMs having problem with that interpretation, especially if the rest of the group is not quite as optimal.

Either way, even without weapon attacks, natural weapons galore on a Rogue/Vivisectionist is a beast, especially if you have decent-high Str or Agi + Agile enchantment.

Oh yeah, and dip Witch 1 and grab the Prehensile Hair hex for an extra natural attack.

[Andvare]

Or you could take a 1-dip into Summoner (and one feat), to get four or six (depending on the reading of the Synthesist rules) extra arms. Which would get you six or eight weapon attacks plus two natural attacks, independent of your race.

[Vanvidum]

In a RL pathfinder campaign I'm in, we've got a rogue that's a coyote-like race, and he has a bite attack.

His player used it in the first encounter we had, biting an owlbear... in the butt. Only did 1 damage, but it was hilarious, and now we know what owlbears taste like in the setting. Apparently they have an unpleasantly 'hollow' flavor.

Regardless of the number of natural weapon attacks, are there existing rules that govern natural weapon enhancements or damage type changes to overcome DR? I don't think you can apply craft rules to natural weapons, but some spells like Bless Weapon and such would apply, don't they?

[grarrrg]

Or you could take a 1-dip into Summoner (and one feat), to get four or six (depending on the reading of the Synthesist rules) extra arms. Which would get you six or eight weapon attacks plus two natural attacks, independent of your race.

First rule of Synthesist club: You do not dip Synthesist.
Second rule of Synthesist club: You do NOT dip Synthesist.

Yes, by taking 1 level of Synthesist, plus the Extra Evolution Feat, and going Biped base you can have 6 arms, two of which come with Claw attacks.
BUT you ruin your physical stats in the process, as you are now stuck with 16 Str and 12 Dex.
Or if you went Quad base for the Pounce, you now have _two_ arms (Pounce costs 1, and you lost the Biped's pair) and 14 Str/14 Dex.


Synthesist is NOT a good choice for a dip.

[Baroncognito]

There's a catfolk item: Claw Blades. They fit over a Catfolk's natural claws, and change and change them from natural attacks to light slashing weapons (it also allows you to enchant your claws and allow them to count as adamantine, cold iron, or silver by using different materials to make the claw blades).

However, just the face that they change your claw attacks from natural attacks to light slashing weapons means you can then use two weapon fighting with them, and you also get iterative attacks.

They are catfolk only, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to get DM permission to have a blacksmith make a set or two for your Tengu.

[Andvare]

First rule of Synthesist club: You do not dip Synthesist.
Second rule of Synthesist club: You do NOT dip Synthesist.

Yes, by taking 1 level of Synthesist, plus the Extra Evolution Feat, and going Biped base you can have 6 arms, two of which come with Claw attacks.
BUT you ruin your physical stats in the process, as you are now stuck with 16 Str and 12 Dex.
Or if you went Quad base for the Pounce, you now have _two_ arms (Pounce costs 1, and you lost the Biped's pair) and 14 Str/14 Dex.


Synthesist is NOT a good choice for a dip.

Well, 16 str on a rogue is still decent IMHO, and there are several ways of getting more.
The AC will hurt though. No armour (except mage armour) + near to no dex is bad. That can be fixed with magic as well

No, the real problem, and why it is rarely a good idea to dip into Synthesist, is the BAB:


The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus

That is a dead stop for pretty much any combat build.

[grarrrg]

Well, 16 str on a rogue is still decent IMHO, and there are several ways of getting more.
The AC will hurt though. No armour (except mage armour) + near to no dex is bad. That can be fixed with magic as well

Still a bad idea.
Yes, there are ways to make up for your problems, but you're overlooking the fact that you are gaining MORE problems than you are bonuses.
You MUCH better off finding a different way to, for example, gain Pounce (or a Pounce-like) than a couple levels of Synthesist/Quadruped.



No, the real problem, and why it is rarely a good idea to dip into Synthesist, is the BAB:
That is a dead stop for pretty much any combat build.

:smallsigh:
There have been various Forum replies/FAQ's/etc... that state the Eidolon Bab only replaces the Bab from Summoner levels.
So a Synthesist 4/Fighter 16 would have 19 Bab either way.
Pretty much how a Monk's Flurry's Bab works.


Why Dipping Synthesist doesn't work:
Melee focused builds lose their Physical stats.
Caster builds have low Physical stats, but don't like the lost casting.
Skill Monkey builds are the only ones that can really make use of a Dip by taking the Skilled Evolution 2 or 3 times, and only wearing their Eidolon-Suit when that Skill needs to be used.