An unoptomization problem

[Saposhiente]

Okay. If you're triple-gestalting, what is the *worst* possible build you can use, with no more than 6 classes in total?

[jaybird]

Commoner//Monk//Paladin?

[The Redwolf]

Commoner/Aristocrat/Truenamer gets my vote.

[Zaq]

Are PrCs allowed? Because you can really shoot yourself in the foot with some PrCs. Blighter 1 will let you waste 20 levels of Druid, for instance.

[Menteith]

Commoner//Monk//Paladin?

Nah, that still picks up full BAB, all good saves, and d10 Hit Die, and has some functional abilities. We can do worse than this! :smallsmile:

If NPC classes are in the mix, then something like Commoner 20//Aristocrat 20//Warrior 20 is going to be pretty awful; d8 Hit Die, full BAB, 4 skills/level and good Will/Fort are literally the only things it has. It's a chassis with no other abilities on it.

[gorfnab]

Truenamer // CW Samurai // Monk :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Truenamer // CW Samurai // Monk :smallbiggrin:

Great lockdown build, full BAB, all three good saves, and a couple of tricks you can pull. Not too shabby, actually.

Can we include suggestions like "Take Sorcerer, then have a Charisma of 9"? Because a Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin with a Charisma of 9 would be rather... suboptimal. At least if you avoid DFI stuff.

[Snowbluff]

Psion/Wizard/Sorc.

The catch?

You traded out the familiar class features and have sub-10 mental stats.

[Flickerdart]

Make sure to add 17 levels of PrCs (using 3-level PrCs like Stoneblessed, entered at level 3) and then lose all prerequisites for them. Completely nullifies one side.

[eggs]

Class: Wizard//Wu Jen//Sorcerer
Race: Karsite
:smalltongue:

EDIT:
Forgot the familiar and the terrors it instills. So let's throw on the Eidetic spellcaster and metamagic specialist ACFs.

[Masaioh]

Orc Wizard/Sorcerer/Commoner with all mental stats at 6.

[Namfuak]

Wu Jen (taboo: can't wear armor)//Monk//Commoner, wearing Full-Plate.

[erikun]

Monk // Commoner // Aristocrat would likely be pretty bad, although Monk // Commoner // Truenamer with Vow of Poverty would probably be worse.

A Warforged with Adamantine Body gets the full spell failure chance, correct? If so, then you could pretty easily put together a nearly worthless spellcaster.

[Kelb_Panthera]

i'm going to try and do this without resorting to using ex-class work-arounds and lower than 10(mental stat) spell casters.

Commoner/stoneblessed/mountain rage barbarian/warhulk//Monk/Survivor//Ninja/XXXXX


If I can just find another PrC that doesn't advance BAB for the xxxxx this guy will have poorer than poor base attack, and will only be useful during his 1 rage for the day.

[TypoNinja]

How about, the least powerful option that isn't a blatant attempt at it?

What's the least powerful option here that still looks like a competent attempt at a character?

Cause otherwise shenanigans like spell casting classes with crap mental scores win easily. Or I don't know, an awakened oak tree with no spellcasting ability so you are stuck rooted in place. Force the party to cart you around (literally, a cart full of dirt you are planted in.) and too large to get inside most places easily.

[jaybird]

What's the least powerful option here that still looks like a competent attempt at a character?

Samurai//Fighter//Paladin. See, he's an honourable warrior who fights for justice :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

How about, the least powerful option that isn't a blatant attempt at it?

What's the least powerful option here that still looks like a competent attempt at a character?

Cause otherwise shenanigans like spell casting classes with crap mental scores win easily. Or I don't know, an awakened oak tree with no spellcasting ability so you are stuck rooted in place. Force the party to cart you around (literally, a cart full of dirt you are planted in.) and too large to get inside most places easily.

Oh, you wanted serious-ish build advice. Why didn't you say so?

Monk//Truenamer//Ninja

There's a bit of overlap between monk and ninja, but they compliment each other nicely and truenamer buffs aimed at yourself bump it up a small notch. It's inherently pretty weak-sauce, but could still be competetive in a very-low-op game. Sprinkle liberally with flavorful but low-end PrC's for fun and ......... profit?

Btw, an awakened tree gets a land-speed, so no cart necessary.

[eggs]

I'm having some issues with the fluff, but how about:

Hellbred Montebank 20//Dark LA/Wizard 9/Eidoloncer 10//Factotum 10/Risen Martyr 10

A decent build for a character that dies at level 10, probably mostly competent for the majority of its career.

Then at level 20, it simultaneously turns into an NPC, dies and disintegrates as a ghost.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm having some issues with the fluff, but how about:

Hellbred Montebank 20//Dark LA/Wizard 9/Eidoloncer 10//Factotum 10/Risen Martyr 10

A decent build for a character that dies at level 10, probably mostly competent for the majority of its career.

Then at level 20, it simultaneously turns into an NPC, dies and disintegrates as a ghost.

I love the fact that being dead is almost no impediment at all with this sort of setup.

[Mithril Leaf]

Soulknife/Swashbuckler/Monk. Actually, might not be all bad if your knives counts as monk weapons. You'll still be absurdly MAD, but might be a low tier 4.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Soulknife/Swashbuckler/Monk. Actually, might not be all bad if your knives counts as monk weapons. You'll still be absurdly MAD, but might be a low tier 4.

oooo.... I forgot soulknife. Change mine to monk//soulknife//truenamer. That should yield interesting results.

[Mithril Leaf]

oooo.... I forgot soulknife. Change mine to monk//soulknife//truenamer. That should yield interesting results.

I like the way you think. I'd personally trade monk out, it's giving too much with it's all good saves. I think Ninja might be a better choice.

[Feralventas]

Shadowcaster//Savant//Mohrg.

Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic. Gets no bonus spells from high ability scores, though some of them are okay-ish. Stealthy aspects and you won't ever need to eat, sleep, or breath.

Savant from Dragon Magazine Compendium. Gets arcane and divine 'casting, but only up to 4th level spells; arcane at Paladin Progression and Divine from 1st to 4th over the last 10 levels. Also gets some knowledge/lore abilities and a flimsy 3d6 sneak attack over 20 levels.

Mohrg from Libris Mortis. It reduces your HD down to 14d12s despite being at 20th level, and grants you some natural attacks, armor, undead traits, and ability score boosts.

So, you have no real solid synergy except for both Shadowcaster and Mohrg being stealthy enough to get +3d6 sneak attack, you get high level spells, but not enough to be really potent. You get some low-level arcane and divine spells so that you can do light buffing and a lot of menial low-level 'casting.

You do get the ability to let allies (up to a limit of your Int Mod) to use your ranks in a single selected skill (up to 5 skills over 20 levels) as long as they're within 30ft.

But you've got Arcane 'casting based on Int, Divne on Wisdom, and Shadowcasting is Int for using them and Cha for DC's. MAD 'erywhere.

Good thing you'll have great physical stats for your Mohg levels.

[Hecuba]

Soulknife/Ilumine Soul//CW Non-Spellcasting Ranger/Shadowsmith//Monk

Might be close to useful if you are regularly deprived of all gear.
__________________________________________________ _________
edit: Should totally toss in Pyrokeniticist too. Let's make it:

Soulknife/Ilumine Soul||CW Non-Spellcasting Ranger/Shadowsmith||Monk/Pyrokeniticist

You can't do much, but you can sure as heck do it without gear. Or try to, anyways.

[jaybird]

I'd personally trade monk out, it's giving too much with it's all good saves.

This is a sentence I never expected I'd read on the Playground.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Pre OP clarification: Shugenga 20//Adept 20//Commoner 19/Ur-Priest 1

d6 HD
4 skill points per level
0 class abilities
No armor proficiency
Simple weapon pfoficiency+wakisashi
able to cast first level spells from the cleric list

Post Clarification: Probably three classes that do almost the exact same thing. It will sound cool but almost nothing will be added to the best class.

Like Rogue//Spellthief//Rokugan Ninja

essentially a Full BAB spellthief with 8+int skills
a significant power gain but still T4


Shadowcaster//Savant//Mohrg.

Mohrg from Libris Mortis. It reduces your HD down to 14d12s despite being at 20th level, and grants you some natural attacks, armor, undead traits, and ability score boosts.

Good thing you'll have great physical stats for your Mohrg levels.

Oh Mohrg, you're giving me flashbacks to arguing with our local monster character lover when he was considering taking it. After about two minutes I degenerated to just repeatedly yelling "It's a TRAP!"

But wouldn't it actually be ok in Gestalt? I'm pretty sure you would look at HD and no HD and see HD as the better option so you'd either have 14d12's and 6d6's or 20d12 because undead turns all your HD into d12's and the same principal would apply to skills you could take 4+int on the levels that Mohrg gives skills and 2+int mod on the levels where it doesn't under a more liberal reading of the rules or 20 levels of 2+int under a more conservative ruling.

[PlusSixPelican]

Barbarian/Paladin/Wizard.

You're an alignment contradiction and a wizard who can't read their spells. :3

[Tesla_pasta]

Barbarian/Paladin/Wizard.

You're an alignment contradiction and a wizard who can't read their spells. :3

Too bad barbarians gain the ability to read if they take another class.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I like the way you think. I'd personally trade monk out, it's giving too much with it's all good saves. I think Ninja might be a better choice.

But ninja plays into the soulknife's ambush fighter archetype. I think the passive goodness of monk will be okay. I got the impression that the OP was looking for something that's still playable.

[only1doug]

I like the way you think. I'd personally trade monk out, it's giving too much with it's all good saves. I think Ninja might be a better choice.


This is a sentence I never expected I'd read on the Playground.
The monk, a class so awful that its not even good at being bad.

[Snowbluff]

The monk, a class so awful that its not even good at being bad.

Hehehe. I have to say this line of responses has had me giggling the whole time.

And to those suggesting anything with more than 1/2 BaB, shame on you! :smalltongue:

EDIT: My build. Sorc/Wizard/Commoner. Take Vow of Poverty so you have no items to work with, dumb Cha, Int, Con. Trade out familiars. Pump up Wis, Will will be your only saving grace. Pun intended.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The OP reposted saying they wanted things that look like someone tried to make functional characters, so obviously shooting yourself in the foot is out. Full BAB is perfectly fine for such an exercise, it looks good on paper and it's pretty useless without a damage source.

[Snowbluff]

The OP reposted saying they wanted things that look like someone tried to make functional characters, so obviously shooting yourself in the foot is out. Full BAB is perfectly fine for such an exercise, it looks good on paper and it's pretty useless without a damage source.

Hmm... perhaps we should take all of the vows?

[animewatcha]

Monk20//Battledancer20//LAs+Templates?

[Mithril Leaf]

Hmm... perhaps we should take all of the vows?

Monk 20//Soulknife 20//Adept 10/ Apostle of Peace is the best I could come up with to take all the vows. Terrible, but strangely not that terrible.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

How about Barbarian//Warmage10/RageMage10//???

Lot's of damage potential and nothing else, all ruined by Vow of Peace. He can't even fly in order to grapple stuff. RageMage appears to have synergy by allowing him to cast in rage (but his spells useless) and it costs him 9's meaning Prismatic Sphere which his most useful defensive spell. He will destroy undead real good though.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

worst possible character that looks like a serious attempt?

I'd go with

ninja/battledancer/soulknife
he is a very agile assassin specialized in the use of mind blade

or

samurai/hexblade/swashbuckler
he is an honorable mage slayer with a taste for acrobatics

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Monk/Soulknife/Warlock

I AM ZERATUL! Only... not so much.

[TheGeckoKing]

Bakemono (OA) Commoner 1/Truenamer 19//Artificer 20//Psion 20 with Vow of Poverty, and 3 Int.

A -8 Int racial penalty never sounded so good. Good race for a big dumb fighter, mind. We must eliminate this. :smallamused:

[hierophant]

How about Samurai//Swashbuckler//Fighter?
One good save.
Low skills (okay, this could be worse. Be sure to dump Int! Also, be a Half-Orc :smalleek:).
HD and BAB redundancy.
No bonus damage.
Focus on Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack et al. Or Toughness. Use all your feats for Toughness.
Use the poor-man's TWF from Samurai.
Over-specialisation for the lose!

[TypoNinja]

The OP reposted saying they wanted things that look like someone tried to make functional characters, so obviously shooting yourself in the foot is out. Full BAB is perfectly fine for such an exercise, it looks good on paper and it's pretty useless without a damage source.

I'm not actually the OP. I just suggested trying to make the least effective possible build without deliberately shooting the foot off since I thought the outcome would be more interesting. Otherwise you just pile contradictory powers like dwarven defender and skirmish, or go caster classes and dump mental stats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not actually the OP. I just suggested trying to make the least effective possible build without deliberately shooting the foot off since I thought the outcome would be more interesting. Otherwise you just pile contradictory powers like dwarven defender and skirmish, or go caster classes and dump mental stats.

Woops.... teach me to read a little closer, eh? :smallredface:

On topic: Can anyone think of something other than war hulk or survivor that doesn't advance BAB? I wanna try and finish my first suggestion.

[eggs]

Savage progressions/Monster classes?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Stay with me now.

Racial hd and level adjustment=savage
We take an avariel elf, make her a natural were-baboon, were-badger, were-wolf; and apply the chameleonic and telthor templates. That's 4 RHD and a +16 LA by RAW

Savage//Mage-wright 2/Stoneblessed 3/Barb 1/Warhulk 10/aristocrat 4//Commoner 15/survivor 5

Telthor makes the big str that's available to this character utterly worthless, and he can't go more than a mile from his bonded location. While he has decent hp and can protect them reasonably well thanks to survivor, that doesn't really mean a whole lot. He even has to deal with ASF. Final BAB is +7. This guy couldn't get a whole lot more worthless. Fortunately he'll die in short order after you leave the town you picked him up in. :smallbiggrin: