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Deepbluediver
2012-08-04, 12:34 AM
I have been challenged!

...to create a large race based on the loxodons from MtG. The catch is that the LA cannot be more than +1.
Original thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13643139#post13643139), in case anyone wants to read our astounding debate about the size of an elephant. :smallamused:

For anyone who is unfamiliar with loxodons, they are a humanoid-elephant race, much in the same way a minotaur is a humanoid-bull or Jon Stewart is a humanoid-jellyfish.

I admit up front, however, that I am woefully inexperienced at calculating appropriate LA and associated racial modifiers, so I am posting my creation here, and I invite anyone who wants to provide feedback to do so.


Loxodons
Loxodons are between 8 and 10 ft. tall, and weigh approx. 800-1,200 pounds; their skin ranges in tone from dark grey to light brown. They have a long trunk, large ears, and tusks, much like their elephantine counterparts. Loxodons are omnivores, though they greatly prefer grains and vegetables to meat.

Charateristics
Type: Giant

+4 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
A loxodon's base land speed is 20 feet. However, loxodons can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Stability: A loxodon gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
Loxodons have a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Concentration checks, and a -2 racial penalty on all Dex-based skill checks.
Armor Proficiency: All loxodons are proficient with light armor.
+2 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: Gore (1d6).
Special Qualities: Claustrophobic, Scent, Trunk.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant.
Favored Class: Cleric.
Level adjustment: +1

Special Qualities
Claustrophobia: Although most Loxodons now live in cities or monasteries, when their race was young it roamed the open plains. This preference for wide open spaces is so strong that loxodons hate being underground, and do anything they can to avoid such areas. Any time a loxodon is underground they are shaken. A loxodon can make a will save (DC 15) to ignore this effect for one hour, at which point they must make another Will save.

Scent: As written here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent).

Trunk: A loxodon's trunk is prehensile, allowing him to make use of it almost as if it where an extra limb. The loxodon can make any skill check with his trunk that he could make with his arm; however, the maximum bonus a loxodon can recieve on these checks is one-half his normal bonus for that skill. A loxodon's trunk is not powerful or dextorous enough to hold a weapon or make attacks with.



And that's pretty much it; I'm also tweaking the previously homebrewed racial paragon class, I'll post that in a few minutes.
Edit: Any credit for good ideas in this thread should go to ShadowPsyker, as he is the originator of the idea and most of the statistics.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-04, 12:53 AM
Loxodon Paragon Class
Alignment: Any non-evil
Hit Dice: d12



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fortitude
Reflex
Will
Special
Spells Per Day


1st

+1
+2
+0
+0
Powerful Build



2nd

+2
+3
+0
+0
Natural Armor Increase, Improved Gore
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class


3rd

+3
+3
+1
+1
Ability Boost (Str +2), Stalwart Explorer
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

Class Skills
The Loxodon Paragon's class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis).
Skill point at each Level: 4+ Int modifier

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Loxodon Paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and with medium armor and shields (Except Tower Shields).
Powerful Build: As described here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Powerful_Build_(3.5e_Feat)), except the Loxdon does not need to meet the prerequisites for the feat.
Natural Armor increase (Ex): Loxodon Paragons gain an additional +1 to Natural Armor at second level.
Improved Gore: The loxodon grows 6 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier, improving his Gore attack to 2d4 damage.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level a Loxodon Paragons Str score increases by an additional +2.
Stalwart Explorer: The grows even larger, gaining another 6 inches in height and 100 pounds of weight, and is no longer Shaken when underground.

Just to Browse
2012-08-04, 03:26 AM
Level 1 reach, +4 Con, and +1 to casting stat... this is cleric central.

toapat
2012-08-04, 11:14 AM
claustrophobia doesnt make sense for the loxodon, they are a race on their native homeworlds that lives in monastaries or cities built by elves and humans.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-04, 11:55 AM
Level 1 reach, +4 Con, and +1 to casting stat... this is cleric central.

Yeah, it's better for some classes than others, sort of how like orcs come pre-optimized to be barbarians.

But is it worth LA +1? That's what I had originally intended; I have edited the list of statistics to include this now. (forgetting little things like that is why I normally try to avoid posting late at night)

I has also made a few other small changes, like changing their type to "Giant", and actually including a DC for the Will save. Again, that's the kind of thing that happens when I write new posts in the wee hours of the morning.


claustrophobia doesnt make sense for the loxodon, they are a race on their native homeworlds that lives in monastaries or cities built by elves and humans.

The phobia is intended as part of the flaws to balance out getting large size (and all it's benefits) at a very low level. A player would have to take 2-3 levels in the paragon class, or build specifically to negate it; either way they would need to expend resources that they could normally put toward anthing else they wanted for their class.

I have not read most of the MtG books, so I'm certain you will tell me if I make any agregious errors. I assume that the now-civilized race probably evolved on the open plains, rather than in the mountains or a dense forest, and I suspect that even if they live in human and elvish cities, they probably have buildings designed to accomadate the much-larger loxodons.
A normal (NPC) loxodon could probably live his whole life without having very many problems with buildings, but adventurers have a fondness for going into crumbling ruins and spooky caves, so any loxodon adventurer would need to find a way to deal with the residual fear. I will alter the fluff to reflect this; let me know if it satisfies you.

toapat
2012-08-04, 12:11 PM
The phobia is intended as part of the flaws to balance out getting large size (and all it's benefits) at a very low level. A player would have to take 2-3 levels in the paragon class, or build specifically to negate it; either way they would need to expend resources that they could normally put toward anthing else they wanted for their class.

I have not read most of the MtG books, so I'm certain you will tell me if I make any agregious errors. I assume that the now-civilized race probably evolved on the open plains, rather than in the mountains or a dense forest, and I suspect that even if they live in human and elvish cities, they probably have buildings designed to accomadate the much-larger loxodons.
A normal (NPC) loxodon could probably live his whole life without having very many problems with buildings, but adventurers have a fondness for going into crumbling ruins and spooky caves, so any loxodon adventurer would need to find a way to deal with the residual fear. I will alter the fluff to reflect this; let me know if it satisfies you.

as far as i can tell, Loxodons dont carry enough weight even in passing in Ravnica, The Planeswalker Chronicles, or Alara to show up as main characters. i think they show up in Mirrodin, but Mirrodin doesnt count because it doesnt have cities, being a plane with a population for only 30 years.

a more logical phobia of Loxodons would be that of Vermin, because IRL, Elephants are scared of mice, rats, and chipmunks

Eurus
2012-08-04, 12:45 PM
Honestly, I would dump the save-versus-fear and just hit them with Shaken while underground. The numerical penalties it gives are a fair trade, and the strong likelihood of the party elephant-man freaking out and making a run for it if he botches a save are really just kind of annoying for the rest of the party.

The way I see it, it's not cleric-central because no sane cleric is going to want to lose a level. Still, if he did decide to take the race it at least would give him some useful perks. Interestingly, a Con bonus is more useful at higher levels while size boosts (and +LA races in general) are more useful at lower levels due to the ease of getting them magically later. In fact, the Giant type means no Enlarge Person, so while it's certainly a nice perk I guess I don't really see it as super-significant.

Perhaps more significant than the Large size is the natural weapon. Natural weapons are a big deal at lower levels, since they can be tacked onto a full attack along with manufactured weapons. It might be viable to move the natural attack onto the Loxodon Paragon class, but remove the save-versus-fear?

Network
2012-08-04, 03:23 PM
Its too easy to become immune to fear. The race works best with the paladin, at 4th or 5th level.

Does it make sense to scrap the natural armor bonus and reduce the Con bonus to +2? My knowledge of the Loxodon is to say limited, so I'm not sure.

Just to Browse
2012-08-05, 05:55 AM
With LA +1, this is actually a fine race and doesn't need a weird fear effect to balance it. You've already scared away casters, the archers don't need these benefits, and melee brutes can weigh the +4 Con and large size against their numbers loss earlygame. Buyoff would make this ridiculously good, though.

But I must say that this really isn't a Loxodon. Loxodons are tough, do big damage and are mystical and ecclectic. The Loxodon paragon class is like a weird hybrid between lox (damage) and leonin (fear-resist)

Deepbluediver
2012-08-05, 08:43 AM
Thank you all for your suggestions; I'm going to address these a little bit out of order, so bear with me.



Its too easy to become immune to fear. The race works best with the paladin, at 4th or 5th level.

Does it make sense to scrap the natural armor bonus and reduce the Con bonus to +2? My knowledge of the Loxodon is to say limited, so I'm not sure.
How easy is it to become immune to fear at first or second level though? I'm honestly asking, because I'm not familiar with most anti-effect optimization. By level 4 or 5 the benefits are relatively less powerful, and I intended for them to be able to shrug off the effect at some point, just not right away.

Also, I included the natural armor bonus because it was in the original posters design. Ideally, since loxodon are big and slow, but have tough skin, I'd prefer to remove the natural armor and replace it with DR/magic. I think that would feel more like "able to be hit, tougher to actually be hurt".


a more logical phobia of Loxodons would be that of Vermin, because IRL, Elephants are scared of mice, rats, and chipmunks

While the Mythbusters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpTSA_25wGE) seem to support your statement (and who am I to disagree with them?) there is some debate (http://www.extremescience.com/elephants-afraid-of-mice.htm) about the varacity of their experiments.

My bigger concern, however, is how would I implement something like this in the game? It basically falls upon the DM to determine where creepy-crawlies show up, so it might feel too much like any time the DM actually uses this he's trying to intentionally screw the player.
If you have any suggestions for the mechanical interpretation of this effect, I'm open to suggestions.


Perhaps more significant than the Large size is the natural weapon. Natural weapons are a big deal at lower levels, since they can be tacked onto a full attack along with manufactured weapons. It might be viable to move the natural attack onto the Loxodon Paragon class, but remove the save-versus-fear?
Hmm, I like the idea of loxodons of any kind being able to gore people, and that potential extra damage does come with a -5 penalty on attack rolls; what if I reduced the damage on the regular version, and let the prestige class bump it up?

Edit: I have now done this.


With LA +1, this is actually a fine race and doesn't need a weird fear effect to balance it. You've already scared away casters, the archers don't need these benefits, and melee brutes can weigh the +4 Con and large size against their numbers loss earlygame. Buyoff would make this ridiculously good, though.

But I must say that this really isn't a Loxodon. Loxodons are tough, do big damage and are mystical and ecclectic. The Loxodon paragon class is like a weird hybrid between lox (damage) and leonin (fear-resist)
I was trying to make something balanced for D&D play; sticking exactly with the loxodons as presented in MtG was a secondary consideration. Some paragon classes give boosts to existing spellcasting, like prestige classes do, and while some of the published paragon classes are kinda lackluster, this one already feels like it offers a lot. If I did add a +1 level of existing divine spellcasting it would probably be at either 1 and 3, or at 2, but not a full progression.

I tried to err on the side of caution when originally designing this, because I'm aware of many published features which seem to be created completely without thought as to how they interact with other ideas, and them some optimizer comes along and combines 1 and 1 to equal godlike power. :smallwink:

I will cut out the Frightened part of the effect while underground, and remove the "enclosed spaces" part entirely. If you want, I can leave the Will save in place to temporarily ignore the shaken part of the effect; let me know what you think.


I don't like the official LA buyoff feature; if I had my way I would redesign many of the +LA races so that you started with only LA 0 worth of features, and in exchange for something like an exp penalty or the bloodline level replacement, you gained additional bonuses as you advanced. Sort of like starting as a baby minotaur and growing up. However, that is vastly more complicated than what I was attempting here.

toapat
2012-08-05, 12:29 PM
While the Mythbusters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpTSA_25wGE) seem to support your statement (and who am I to disagree with them?) there is some debate (http://www.extremescience.com/elephants-afraid-of-mice.htm) about the varacity of their experiments.

My bigger concern, however, is how would I implement something like this in the game? It basically falls upon the DM to determine where creepy-crawlies show up, so it might feel too much like any time the DM actually uses this he's trying to intentionally screw the player.
If you have any suggestions for the mechanical interpretation of this effect, I'm open to suggestions.

anti-favored enemy when facing anthing with the virmin type or of tiny or smaller

Deepbluediver
2012-08-10, 10:50 AM
anti-favored enemy when facing anthing with the virmin type or of tiny or smaller
Hmm...While I agree that might work, I'm gonna hold off an keep my current version for two reasons: first, it still feels like it's up to the DM to decide when and where the penalty comes into play, and I would rather avoid that. For being underground, the player can either suck it up, or try convince the group to go find a different dungeon.
Secondly, loxodons are supposed to be sort-of like elephants, not identical, so I admit there is a certain amount of "because I say so" going on here.

I will definitely keep this mechanic in mind for future races, though.

And also, because of this:
Loxodon: I see a swarm of dire rats ahead!
Druid: I cast Animal Growth.
Rogue: Wait, what? Why are you making them LARGER?!?
Druid: So our party tank/healer won't be afraid of them, obviously.



But I must say that this really isn't a Loxodon. Loxodons are tough, do big damage and are mystical and ecclectic. The Loxodon paragon class is like a weird hybrid between lox (damage) and leonin (fear-resist)
I've tweaked the abilities in the paragon class, and added partial caster progression for more of that mystic-spiritual feel. And there really isn't that much in the way of fear-resist; it's mostly to just negate the Loxodon's natural weakness.
Also, these are supposed to be LA +1 loxodons as viewed through D&D mechanics that are still interesting and fun to play. If I really was trying to stick as close as possible to most of the MtG source material, they'd probably need more Stat boosts or other perks, which would almost certainly push them up to LA +2.