Linear Warriors/Quadratic Wizards

[PlusSixPelican]

So, in the game, physical classes lose out to casters over time. Does anyone have suggestions to avert this without the warriors multiclassing? There's a TVTropes article about this, but I dun know how to put links in text. :c

[Snowbluff]

Tome of Battle is nice. It gives the warriors some more versatility and options. Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is free.

Also, having casters play their Tier 3/4 Alternatives (Bequiler, Dread Necro, Warmage) should help. That way you won't have any one of them with all the options in the world.

To link text on this forum, select the text, the click on the little blue palnet with the link on in the editor, then paste your URL in the box that pops up and hit enter.

[Urpriest]

To put a link in the text, when you're making a post, click the globe icon with the chain links in front of it.

You'll have to be more specific. Do you mean solutions to this problem in general, or specifically in D&D 3.5? This sort of thing gets discussed constantly in one way or another, what specific direction are you interested in?

[eggs]

Put noncasters onto the same scaling mechanics as wizards. This involves extensive system overhaul, but fortunately Tome of Battle already did the legwork. The system's not super deep, but there's a lot of homebrew to flesh it out.

Otherwise, you could go for parity - swap some magical or psionic abilities onto the mundanes at a Psychic Warrior-like rate. This might rub you the wrong way, but you could outsource the power - give the Fighter an "Ancestral Sword" or something at level 1 that turns into a magic item and that you can attribute the actual spellcasting to.

And beyond that, total system overhaul. 3e just doesn't lay much groundwork for this kind of mechanic other than ToB (the common kneejerk reaction of making mundanes' numbers bigger is more of a problem than a fix).

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, in the game, physical classes lose out to casters over time. Does anyone have suggestions to avert this without the warriors multiclassing? There's a TVTropes article about this, but I dun know how to put links in text. :c

My typical suggestion for this particular issue is a simple one. Play in a low-magic campaign.

My low-magic setup is like this.

Arcane spellcasting is available only through the mage-wright class in ECS.

Divine casting is only available through the adept class in the DMG.

Spell-casting prestige classes remain available as long as they don't grant seperate casting.

No artificer.

This impedes the use of magic greatly, without eliminating it altogether. It's also one of the heaviest swings of the ban-hammer I've ever seen suggested.

Bringing martial classes up to speed with casters is simply not possible in 3.5 D&D.


Edit: it occurs to me that low-magic isn't necessarily the right term for this. Perhaps, limited magic? or low-power magic? There's no reason the campaign can't still be flooded with magical paraphanelia and creatures.

[Zale]

Bringing martial classes up to speed with casters is simply not possible in 3.5 D&D.


ToB? e6? Sticking to Tier Three Casters?

[Menteith]

- Use classes and varients like the Dread Necromancer, Bard (but not Sublime Chord), Beguiler, Warmage, Adept, and Mystic Ranger in the place of Wizards, Sorcs, Druids, Clerics, Archivists, and so on. Porting the Pathfinder Alchemist, Magus, and Summoner is also a good idea, as the classes are reasonably powerful without being game shattering. Simply put, there's no way to balance something like the Wizard, as the only class that can compete with a optimized Wizard is something equally versatile and powerful (generally another Wizard); you can't bring up another class in power level to match what they're capable of.

- Strongly recommend that people check out the decent mundanes that exist, rather than using PHB classes. If someone's heart is dead set on a using a Fighter instead of a Warblade, allow a gestalt with another low power class, free LA races/templates, a higher point buy, or higher WBL in order to help them out. If you're looking for a system where you can run a mundane without multiclassing or dipping against casters, I would recommend Pathfinder over D&D3.5 - it gives class features to every base class, and tones down some (certainly not all) of the excesses that a full caster can bring, and plays almost exactly like 3.5. If that's something that interests you, check out this site (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home) here for more information.

[Kelb_Panthera]

ToB? e6? Sticking to Tier Three Casters?

Except for E6 those only narrow the gap, they don't close it.

E6 is almost a different game, and is by default a low-magic setup. I suggested low-magic as a means to balance things. I just suggested a version of low-magic that doesn't require you throw out most of the monsters and alot of the supplemental rules or bring the power-level of the whole game down.

Bottom line: E6 doesn't bring the martial types up to caster power, it brings the casters down to martial power.

[PlusSixPelican]

More like helping the warrior catch up. Like, granting some supernatural abilities to them @ certain levels or something.

[Randomguy]

You could try gestalting lower tier classes together.

Tier 3's are gestalted with a tier 5 and tier 4's are gestalted with another tier 4, or something like that.

[Urpriest]

More like helping the warrior catch up. Like, granting some supernatural abilities to them @ certain levels or something.

In a sense they already do though. Warblades, Swordsages etc. get a variety of supernatural abilities (heck, so do Monks, Paladins, Rangers, maybe some Rogues...just much less useful ones). It all depends on what your balancing point is.

[MukkTB]

The Tome of Battle raises the bar for fighters. They get something kind of like spell lists. This is a huge increase in versatility but not so much in raw power.

Restriction to tier 3 casters (Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Bard, ect) lowers the bar for casters. The guy who can turn into a dragon won't also be able to summon an army of skeletons and mindrape everyone into obedient slaves.

E6 stops progression before it gets out of hand. A lvl 6 fighter is a much greater threat to a lvl 6 wizard than a lvl 12 fighter is to a level 12 wizard.


3.5 doesn't really follow linear fighters quadratic wizards very closely. Yes the fighters are linear. Yes the wizards are quadratic. But some of the wizards start out very potent. The trope depends on the fighters line starting at a higher value than the wizards curve. In D&D its entirely possible for a wizard to start above the fighter and only increase in power disparity from there.

A druid with a pet at level 1 is going to be at least a match for a fighter. A wizard with abjurant jaunt is going to be at least as survivable as a fighter, and quite capable of bringing one down. This is a real warping of the spirit of the trope. If magic is supposed to be powerful but balanced by the difficulties of a low level spellcaster then 3.5 totally fails.

[Rubik]

You could try gestalting lower tier classes together.

Tier 3's are gestalted with a tier 5 and tier 4's are gestalted with another tier 4, or something like that.You could gestalt 20 levels of every tier 3 class and below and they wouldn't come close to the power and versatility of an optimized level 20 tier 1.

They're that insane.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You could gestalt 20 levels of every tier 3 class and below and they wouldn't come close to the power and versatility of an optimized level 20 tier 1.

They're that insane.

This is, unfortunately true, and it makes me a sad panda. :smallfrown:


A cookie for anyone that gets the reference.

[Azoth]

I unfortunately have to agree. ToB was a nice start to the balancing act of mele vs casters, but in d&d 3.5...they will never be equal. I and others have even tried to homebrew PRCs to be Mage Slayers, and unless we unhing the game...we can't do it.

Frankly, improving on the ToB mechanics with maybe a few move action/free action boosts or abilities may be a nice start, or maybe giving abilities that last more than one round (outside of stances) would help. I have noticed, at least in my play experience, the fact the boosts/counters are limited to swift/immediate actions can suck horribly. Choosing between killing a foe now, or being able to counter his buddy is diffictuly and annoying.

I don't feel that the addition of such things would be that horrid considering the caster's ability to Quicken, normal spell, celerity, standard action spell...and other annoying mage only action economy rapes.

[Reluctance]

Play 4e. Whether or not what's required to bring balance is worth the switch is the subject of countless threads. Luckily, the more recent ones can be something other than flamefests.

Have "mundanes" be either ToB classes, or refluffed psychic warriors. Meanwhile, limit magic types to the focused, fixed-list casters mentioned above. You should get something much closer to parity.

The key thing to remember is that it's not a question of raw power, it's one of options. Wizards and clerics get too many. (Look over the appropriate spell lists and realize that the classes can do any of those things.) Mundanes get too few. (Ask yourself what tricks a level 20 barbarian can pull that a level 1 barbarian can't. Not doing the same tricks only better, but wholly new tools in the box.) Changing that requires throwing out most of the iconic classes, and large chunks of core.

[Big Fau]

In a sense they already do though. Warblades, Swordsages etc. get a variety of supernatural abilities (heck, so do Monks, Paladins, Rangers, maybe some Rogues...just much less useful ones). It all depends on what your balancing point is.

Warblades receive a total of 0 SUAs by virtue of their class features or their natural maneuvers. Feats enable it, but those same feats give the Fighter SUAs.

[Randomguy]

You could gestalt 20 levels of every tier 3 class and below and they wouldn't come close to the power and versatility of an optimized level 20 tier 1.

They're that insane.

Very true. At low optimization levels (god wizard/utility wizard) then things get a lot closer.


This is, unfortunately true, and it makes me a sad panda. :smallfrown:


A cookie for anyone that gets the reference.

Is it sexual harassment panda from South Park?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Very true. At low optimization levels (god wizard/utility wizard) then things get a lot closer.



Is it sexual harassment panda from South Park?

A cookie for Randomguy!

I've used that to express disappointment ever since I first saw that episode.

[Urpriest]

Warblades receive a total of 0 SUAs by virtue of their class features or their natural maneuvers. Feats enable it, but those same feats give the Fighter SUAs.

I wasn't referring specifically to SUAs, but rather to the design space they occupy. Interesting Ex abilities fill the same proposed role.

[Gavinfoxx]

So a low powered game might have classes in it like Expert, Fighter, Healer, Knight, Paladin, Monk, Swashbuckler, Ninja, Soulknife or Magewright.

A mid-low power game might have Adept, Barbarian, Dragonfire Adept, Dragon Shaman, Fighter with a few useful alternate class features, Hexblade, marshal, Nightstalker, Ranger, Rogue, Scout, Totemist, or Warmage as possible class choices.

A mid power game might have Ardent, Bard, Beguiler, Crusader, Duskblade, Factotum, Psychic Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Ranger with useful alternate class features, Swordsage, and Warblade as allowed classes.

And a high power game might have classes like Favored Soul, Psion/Erudite/Erudite with useful ACF's, Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman, Archivist, Artificer, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard as allowed classes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't know that I wouldn't put the adept and mage-wright in the same category, but yes, that's the basic idea.

You can't eliminate imbalance, but doing things that way can at least minimize it.

Incidentally, that's almost a reprint of the tier list. It just doesn't say tier 1, tier 2, etc.

I do tend to see non-casters as more balanced with each other when spells and their equivalents aren't readily available too.

[Mithril Leaf]

You could gestalt 20 levels of every tier 3 class and below and they wouldn't come close to the power and versatility of an optimized level 20 tier 1.

They're that insane.

Technically the warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer, and wilder count as tier 3. I think that with such a large variety of spontaneous casting, you could approach the power and versatility of a tier 1. You'd be MAD as all hell, but you could do it.

[eggs]

Psychic Reformation + Advanced/Eclectic Learning is a pretty big deal.

[Marlowe]

Technically the warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer, and wilder count as tier 3. I think that with such a large variety of spontaneous casting, you could approach the power and versatility of a tier 1. You'd be MAD as all hell, but you could do it.

All of those bar the Beguiler are Charisma-based. So use Bard instead of Beguiler.

[Mithril Leaf]

All of those bar the Beguiler are Charisma-based. So use Bard instead of Beguiler.

Well, you keep Beguiler anyway if you're gestalting all of tier 3 together. Don't bother getting it above 14, but with that and an item, you can cast 9th level spells. You can dump all your physical stats anyway since we've got wildshape ranger. Actually, hang on. We're basically a druid with arcane casting and manifesting. Plus awesome buffs from Psychic warrior. And a bunch of feats. And tons of manuevers. All the tier 3 and lowers gestalted together is pretty badass thinking about it. We've got all skills, 8 points per level, no need for physical stats, feats out the wazoo, and several sets of level 9 spells.

[Randomguy]

Technically the warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer, and wilder count as tier 3. I think that with such a large variety of spontaneous casting, you could approach the power and versatility of a tier 1. You'd be MAD as all hell, but you could do it.

Note really. I mean, wizards get every (or almost every) utility spell that that particular combo gets, except for psion powers, but spells are generally a bit better than powers, (and Spell to Power Erudite is also a tier 1) and then quite a bit on top of that. Things like flight, true seeing, gaseous form, all sorts of divinations, teleportation, and summoning monsters with useful abilities.

And in terms of power, at very high optimization, using tippy's trick for every metamagic feat there is applied to every spell you cast without adjustment, plus the tainted scholar trick for NI spell slots, and you can do something like 80 000 untyped damage in a round by spamming a heavily metamagicked Maw of Chaos while in a time stop. And that's only in one round.

Also note that almost all of the damage records in the damage record thread have a tier 1 or tier 2 caster in them, except the hulking hurler one (and tier 1's have so many ways of stopping ranged attacks that it's not even funny).

And even without going to that extreme, wizard still gets stuff like shapechange and gate, and better blasting spells than the warmage, and a huge amount of "no" buttons that make it easy to become immune to most attacks.

Lastly tier 1's tend to get the best battlefield control. Even a beguiler/bard/warmage/dread Necromancer/Healer doesn't really come close to the battlefield control that a wizard can put down.

Also, I think wilders are normally put at tier 2.

[Mithril Leaf]

Note really. I mean, wizards get every (or almost every) utility spell that that particular combo gets, except for psion powers, but spells are generally a bit better than powers, (and Spell to Power Erudite is also a tier 1) and then quite a bit on top of that. Things like flight, true seeing, gaseous form, all sorts of divinations, teleportation, and summoning monsters with useful abilities.

And in terms of power, at very high optimization, using tippy's trick for every metamagic feat there is applied to every spell you cast without adjustment, plus the tainted scholar trick for NI spell slots, and you can do something like 80 000 untyped damage in a round by spamming a heavily metamagicked Maw of Chaos while in a time stop. And that's only in one round.

Also note that almost all of the damage records in the damage record thread have a tier 1 or tier 2 caster in them, except the hulking hurler one (and tier 1's have so many ways of stopping ranged attacks that it's not even funny).

And even without going to that extreme, wizard still gets stuff like shapechange and gate, and better blasting spells than the warmage, and a huge amount of "no" buttons that make it easy to become immune to most attacks.

Lastly tier 1's tend to get the best battlefield control. Even a beguiler/bard/warmage/dread Necromancer/Healer doesn't really come close to the battlefield control that a wizard can put down.

Also, I think wilders are normally put at tier 2.

I assumed we were arguing without prestige classes. What's good for the goose is good for the gander after all. Suddenly we've got Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, War-Weaver, Incantrix, and Dweomerkeeper. It's better for everyone if there's no prestige classes involved. A Druid is tier 1 as well, that's what I was aiming at. I think an arcane caster with a massive spontaneous list and wildshape and full BAB and all good saves is at least on par with a druid.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Play Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/). Subverting this trope was pretty much one of the main reasons it was created in the first place.

[Answerer]

Play Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/). Subverting this trope was pretty much one of the main reasons it was created in the first place.
I strongly support this.

[Mithril Leaf]

Play Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/). Subverting this trope was pretty much one of the main reasons it was created in the first place.

I gotta say, Monks are actually my favorite class in Legend. Once upon a time I started working on a flurrying monk with an absurdly high critical hit range and weapons that healed him on a crit. Quite a bit different from the world of D&D where such a thing would just be laughed at by a wizard.

[Answerer]

Worth noting on that: Discipline of the Serpent was totally revamped because it was pretty broken, and the Flurry combat maneuver is going likewise. Basically, Flurry was too good on its own, and Serpent was "Flurry, the Track," so Flurry is being replaced with some kind of precision attack maneuver, and Discipline of the Serpent has already been turned into a kind of combat maneuver master track. It's less over-the-top powerful, but it's really cool.


But it does say something that the Monk was the first class to need a nerf, and the spellcasting classes are the ones who most need a buff.

[Mithril Leaf]

Worth noting on that: Discipline of the Serpent was totally revamped because it was pretty broken, and the Flurry combat maneuver is going likewise. Basically, Flurry was too good on its own, and Serpent was "Flurry, the Track," so Flurry is being replaced with some kind of precision attack maneuver, and Discipline of the Serpent has already been turned into a kind of combat maneuver master track. It's less over-the-top powerful, but it's really cool.


But it does say something that the Monk was the first class to need a nerf, and the spellcasting classes are the ones who most need a buff.

Dare I say that I'm disappointed that monks aren't the wizards of Legend?

[Godskook]

You could gestalt 20 levels of every tier 3 class and below and they wouldn't come close to the power and versatility of an optimized level 20 tier 1.

They're that insane.

This is so far away from true that I'm kinda surprised it got said.

In the tier <=3 crowd, we have:

Totemist
Incarnate
Factotum
Crusader
Warblade
Swordsage
Warmage
Dread Necromancer
Beguiler
Wildshape Ranger
Warlock
Dragonfire Adept
Scout
Ninja
Rogue
Fighter
Monk

Also, we have upwards of 3d6/2 levels damage scaling on top of full BAB and free TWF if we want it. A flat-footed target(G. Invisibility!) would be taking more d6s of damage per swing than they typically have HD, and on top of that, we can easily get truckloads of attacks via Totemist and Ranger.

I mean, there's skill check prowess, there's AoE damage, there's combat damage, there's battlefield control, there's such insane buffing we shouldn't even talk about it, and probably quite a few things I'm missing.

[Eldest]

Note really. I mean, wizards get every (or almost every) utility spell that that particular combo gets, except for psion powers, but spells are generally a bit better than powers, (and Spell to Power Erudite is also a tier 1) and then quite a bit on top of that. Things like flight, true seeing, gaseous form, all sorts of divinations, teleportation, and summoning monsters with useful abilities.

Flight - Warlock.
True Seeing - Adept.
Divinations - Adept.
Teleportation - Not sure, but probably something.
Summoning - Dread Necromancer. You don't need to summon.

[Cor1]

In what tier would fall a PsyWar/Ardent combo? Aiming towards a King of Smack with a bit more utility. It would end with about 17 powers known and 400 power points including stat bonus, selected in severely limited lists (excluding shenanigans to get infinite power lists, like Soul Crystal and Psychic Chirurgery).

[eggs]

With optimization-minded decisions, Ardent's power selection isn't so limiting on its own. It can still tie the action economy in knots with Time mantle, and use that to facilitate game-enders like Metamorphosis, Astral Construct and various mind-control powers, and still drop some strong utility abilities like teleportation, time hop and minor creation. And it can do all of that in the same build. It plays like the 2s already. Adding Psychic Warrior is going to give it more brute force, but isn't going to give it Cleric/Wizard/Archivist-like utility.

[Godskook]

In what tier would fall a PsyWar/Ardent combo? Aiming towards a King of Smack with a bit more utility. It would end with about 17 powers known and 400 power points including stat bonus, selected in severely limited lists (excluding shenanigans to get infinite power lists, like Soul Crystal and Psychic Chirurgery).

Ardent is tier 2, Psychic Warrior is tier 3, a combo of them would fall between those two.

[Rubik]

Ardent is tier 2, Psychic Warrior is tier 3, a combo of them would fall between those two.If they're gestalt it goes right to tier 2. If it's multiclass, it depends entirely on what you do and how you do it. If you do it badly you might even end up in tier 4.

[Cor1]

I had the idea for multiclass. The King of Smack basic combo can be done in 20 levels of straight Psychic Warrior, or maybe even just Ardent 20 (but that one might need a feat battery trick to get the whole chains).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But it does say something that the Monk was the first class to need a nerf, and the spellcasting classes are the ones who most need a buff.

Yea, combine higher average saving throws with more options for boosting saving throws with a distinct lack of ability to DC stack and you end up with 'Save or Lose' is actually pretty dicy to use, because odds are they're gonna make their save.

Combo with Shaman Incantation track to replace save with an attack roll, only there is no such thing as 'touch AC', and while there *ARE* more methods of boosting your attack roll than boosting DC, it's still something you'll have to build for. Besides, it's basically single-target with Incantation, which has its own problems.

[Togo]

There are a number of ways of doing it. Despite the mechanical gap between the two, making them balanced or near balanced in a particular game is much more straightforward.

There are a number of ways of doing this. I'll cover them in three sections.

Section 1) changing the playstyle
Power very much depends on the context in which you are applying it. Primary spellcasters have more powerful options than warriors, but are supposed to suffer a number of penalties as a result. They are supposed to have limited usage of spells-per-day, their powers are highly specific and often situational, they need uninterrupted rest in order to recover, etc. If the style of game your group enjoys doesn't regularly involve your spellcasters running low on high level spells, gives broad and generous interpretations to spell effects and plays down the incidence of unexpected or unplanned encounters, then your style is giving them an advantage. Either change the style, or seek to limit them in some other way.

Other playstyle considerations include letting the party set the pace at which they resolve challanges, varying the style of the game so that spellcasters can't so easily optimise their powers to match it, the extent to which magical solutions can be applied to social situations, and so on...

Section 2) Play agreements
Sometimes refered to as play agreements, this is generally a list of things the participants in a game won't do.

Commonly, both players and DM acknowledge that they're not out to break the game. That means not putting the players under rediculous restrictions or railroading, and it means that the players should not be actively setting out to break the game world.

Such agreements are often most effective at making sure that every player can get their turn in the spotlight, and that the basic elements of the gameworld remain functional, which can get rid of many of the problems associated with imbalanced character design. They are also typically aimed at reducing optimisation amongst capable players.

Section 3) Rules changes and restrictions
You generally shouldn't be using rules from every sourcebook imaginable, if only to preserve some sense of theme. If you feel that one type of characters is more powerful than the others, it makes sense to restrict their choices more than others. Difficult warrior options are usually those that have no counter as written, and are usually poorly written, or those that give an advantage to the PC with a corresponding disadvantage given to the associates of that PC (cf frenzied beserker, restrictive codes of honour, etc. Difficult spellcaster options typically involve something that poses a problem to the setting or style of play. In particular you need to watch for options that reduce or remove penalties, so Divine metamagic, anything that claims to grant free money, magic item crafting using other people to fulfill requisites, incantrix, cheater of mystra, wildshape, and so on.

Of course a great many restrictions are already written into the rulebook, and applying them simply involves knowing the rules. Scrying can be noticed with a spot check. Ice assassin needs a body part and suffers a host of restrictions. and so on. If a spell has two possibly interpretations, and one of them leads to an imbalanced, broken game, choose the other one.

Helping warrior types with rules changes is harder, but the simplest rules chnage, although hard to enforce, is to give them more wealth by level, probably through some kind of privledged access to cheap weapons and armour, or feats that grant signature items. WBL is very powerful, at higher levels it ranks with class abilities, and it is quadratic, just like spells.

Most people I know use a mild combination of the above techniques, and end up with games where spellcasters do not, in practice dominate either the game or the gameworld. It's perfectly possible to do, although it is much harder for some styles than for others.

[Kelb_Panthera]

^ This. This. A thousand times this. I doubt this can be said more clearly or concisely.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There are a number of ways of doing it. Despite the mechanical gap between the two, making them balanced or near balanced in a particular game is much more straightforward.

There are a number of ways of doing this. I'll cover them in three sections.

Section 1) changing the playstyle
Power very much depends on the context in which you are applying it. Primary spellcasters have more powerful options than warriors, but are supposed to suffer a number of penalties as a result. They are supposed to have limited usage of spells-per-day, their powers are highly specific and often situational, they need uninterrupted rest in order to recover, etc. If the style of game your group enjoys doesn't regularly involve your spellcasters running low on high level spells, gives broad and generous interpretations to spell effects and plays down the incidence of unexpected or unplanned encounters, then your style is giving them an advantage. Either change the style, or seek to limit them in some other way.

Other playstyle considerations include letting the party set the pace at which they resolve challanges, varying the style of the game so that spellcasters can't so easily optimise their powers to match it, the extent to which magical solutions can be applied to social situations, and so on...Varying the style of the game only gives MORE power to the versatile Wizards, who can change their line-up of spells pretty much on a whim, and have FAR more out-of-combat utility than... well... every melee class combined. Scrolls give them the 'rarely used but when it is needed, it breaks the encounter' spells available at their fingertips without needing to waste a slot on it that day.


Section 2) Play agreements
Sometimes refered to as play agreements, this is generally a list of things the participants in a game won't do.

Commonly, both players and DM acknowledge that they're not out to break the game. That means not putting the players under rediculous restrictions or railroading, and it means that the players should not be actively setting out to break the game world.

Such agreements are often most effective at making sure that every player can get their turn in the spotlight, and that the basic elements of the gameworld remain functional, which can get rid of many of the problems associated with imbalanced character design. They are also typically aimed at reducing optimisation amongst capable players. This is generally how you go about doing it. "Okay guys, no infinite loops, no Known Cheese like Mailman, That Damned Gnome, or other Game Ender builds. Keep it clean, and come out RPing."


Section 3) Rules changes and restrictions
You generally shouldn't be using rules from every sourcebook imaginable, if only to preserve some sense of theme. If you feel that one type of characters is more powerful than the others, it makes sense to restrict their choices more than others. Difficult warrior options are usually those that have no counter as written, and are usually poorly written, or those that give an advantage to the PC with a corresponding disadvantage given to the associates of that PC (cf frenzied beserker, restrictive codes of honour, etc. Difficult spellcaster options typically involve something that poses a problem to the setting or style of play. In particular you need to watch for options that reduce or remove penalties, so Divine metamagic, anything that claims to grant free money, magic item crafting using other people to fulfill requisites, incantrix, cheater of mystra, wildshape, and so on.

Of course a great many restrictions are already written into the rulebook, and applying them simply involves knowing the rules. Scrying can be noticed with a spot check. Ice assassin needs a body part and suffers a host of restrictions. and so on. If a spell has two possibly interpretations, and one of them leads to an imbalanced, broken game, choose the other one.

Helping warrior types with rules changes is harder, but the simplest rules chnage, although hard to enforce, is to give them more wealth by level, probably through some kind of privledged access to cheap weapons and armour, or feats that grant signature items. WBL is very powerful, at higher levels it ranks with class abilities, and it is quadratic, just like spells. Sadly, this also tends to benefit Wizards more than Melee.

Core is probably where the most imbalance is, starting with Rope Trick and ending with Titan Gate Chains. Lesser Planar Binding is game-breaking. So is PAO.

Splatbooks are where melee find ANYTHING to do. Without them... they go from 'at least he can do damage' to 'not even being able to do that'.

Wizards don't need magic items to warp reality, but they can also do a LOT more with WBL than Fighters can do. Rings of Wizardry, Metamagic Rods... these counter many of what you perceive to be 'weaknesses' in a Wizard. With WBL sunk into scrolls and wands, they literally CAN pull any spell ever printed out of their... hats... at a moment's notice.


Most people I know use a mild combination of the above techniques, and end up with games where spellcasters do not, in practice dominate either the game or the gameworld. It's perfectly possible to do, although it is much harder for some styles than for others.
Generally, in games I play in, I build a character to the level of optimization that the rest of the party is at.

Say you've got a Warblade, a Rogue/Swordsage, a Beguiler, and a Healer... I'd probably play a Bard, and DFI. I'm not breaking the game by myself, but I'm giving the Warblade and the Rogue/Swordsage a hefty damage boost. With a Rogue/Swordsage and a Beguiler, they probably don't need much of a Party Face or Skillmonkey, but I can pull the 'I know what that is and what its weakness is' card fairly well by dumping most of my skills into Knowledge (All of them).

That's a Gentleman's Agreement, because I don't want to steal anyone's thunder when actually playing.

However, trying to restrict my sources won't really stop me from breaking a game, if I am of a mind to break it, as I have proven on several occasions. In fact, no less than four GM's have flat out dared me to 'try and break the game with these restrictions', and I have done it. Each. Time.

Work with the attitudes rather than the resources, and you'll get better results.

[Lans]

Flight - Warlock.
True Seeing - Adept.
Divinations - Adept.
Teleportation - Not sure, but probably something.
Summoning - Dread Necromancer. You don't need to summon.

Factotum gives spells of up to 7th level, 1 7th and 7 0-6th, so you're mainly competing with just 8th and 9th level spells.

Healers get gate
Truenamers also get gate
Divine mind and ardent, and lurk, psionic rogue and warrior get a bunch of things, like contigency, mindblank, dimension door, freedom of movement

Warmages get eclectic learning for another 7th level wizard spell

[Tvtyrant]

Shadowcaster gets 9th level mysteries, including a better version of time stop.

[Togo]

Varying the style of the game only gives MORE power to the versatile Wizards, who can change their line-up of spells pretty much on a whim,

No, they can't. See the bit about not softballing the restrictions on spellcasters. Note that anything that leans on the spells-per day restriction also leans on the verstality.

In practice, I've found this to be successful and workable in a wide range of games and playstyles. It may not suit every game.



Sadly, this also tends to benefit Wizards more than Melee.

Not if you do it right. You may thinking of setting the boundaries splatbook by splatbook, but that's explicitly not what I was doing.


Core is probably where the most imbalance is, starting with Rope Trick

I don't find rope trick to be a problem, any more than camoflaguing a tent is a problem. Either will be missed on a causal search and found with a determined one.

It's imbalanced if you softball spellcasting, and grant the spell more utility than it is written to have. As written, it works very much like a well hidden cave entrance high on a wall, which adventurers might well be able to find in any case.


Wizards don't need magic items to warp reality, but they can also do a LOT more with WBL than Fighters can do. Rings of Wizardry, Metamagic Rods... these counter many of what you perceive to be 'weaknesses' in a Wizard.

Just as getting items that allow flight, teleportation, etc. counter many of the weaknesses of a Warrior.

In practice, I've found WBL to be a great leveller, although the impact is of course much less at lower levels.



With WBL sunk into scrolls and wands, they literally CAN pull any spell ever printed out of their... hats... at a moment's notice..

Only if you've given them access to every spell ever printed, which is a remarkably generous concession to grant them. See the bit about playstyle.



Generally, in games I play in, I build a character to the level of optimization that the rest of the party is at.
<snip>
That's a Gentleman's Agreement, because I don't want to steal anyone's thunder when actually playing.
<snip>
Work with the attitudes rather than the resources, and you'll get better results.

Sounds like that's the technique that works best with your group and preferred style of play. I've had the same experience, in that I've encountered groups where this is the best approach.

I wouldn't want to discount the idea that other combinations would work better for other people or other groups though.

[Psyren]

I unfortunately have to agree. ToB was a nice start to the balancing act of mele vs casters, but in d&d 3.5...they will never be equal. I and others have even tried to homebrew PRCs to be Mage Slayers, and unless we unhing the game...we can't do it.

Do they have to be, though? Tiers represent potential; in practice, T3s and even some T4s have few problems contributing to the campaign table in their own ways. People successfully put Clerics and Rogues in the same party every day, and neither game has imploded yet.

So long as each class has something fun to do in most encounters (something I feel Pathfinder did a better job at), a little power disparity is acceptable. It can even be a good thing. (http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance) Many people decried PF bringing the fighter back without making them into Warblades, without really looking at the positives to that approach.

[Tytalus]

I just suggested a version of low-magic...

Bottom line: E6 doesn't bring the martial types up to caster power, it brings the casters down to martial power.

It seems you got that confused. Your low-magic suggestion brings the casters down to martial power. E6 simply confines the game to a level range where the power gap doesn't exist / isn't that pronounced.

---

I've had good experiences with E6 in that regard, and even better ones with Tier 3 spellcasters and ToB. Combined the two work very well together, too.

[Eloel]

People feeling the need to prove that T3 and less all gestalted can beat T1 (which imo is true) tells a funny story.

[eggs]

People feeling the need to prove that T3 and less all gestalted can beat T1 (which imo is true) tells a funny story.
That somebody made a silly claim to the contrary?

[dextercorvia]

E6 does not eliminate or even greatly reduce the power gap. What it does is give me the understanding that my DM doesn't want my 6th level guy to be able to take on a Balor, so I optimize accordingly. Again that is an attitude/agreement thing rather than a lack of ability within the system.

A T3 and below base class gestalt would be at least T2. It would have to work pretty hard to break the game in a different way every day, though, but optimized, it could compare with T1. Via Factotum alone you have access to Simulacrum and Planar Binding. Edit: No you can't. I forgot about the no XP cost thing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It seems you got that confused. Your low-magic suggestion brings the casters down to martial power. E6 simply confines the game to a level range where the power gap doesn't exist / isn't that pronounced.

---

I've had good experiences with E6 in that regard, and even better ones with Tier 3 spellcasters and ToB. Combined the two work very well together, too.

No confusion. My suggestion was exactly that. Bring the casters down to martial power. I just didn't say throw out 2/3 of the game in the process.

That's not a disparagement of E6 btw. I can see the appeal of an E6 setup for certain types of campaign, but there's no denying that a lot of the game has to be thrown out altogether if nobody's higher than 6th level.

[Godskook]

People feeling the need to prove that T3 and less all gestalted can beat T1 (which imo is true) tells a funny story.

Yeah, this one:

http://xkcd.com/386/

[Zale]

No confusion. My suggestion was exactly that. Bring the casters down to martial power. I just didn't say throw out 2/3 of the game in the process.

That's not a disparagement of E6 btw. I can see the appeal of an E6 setup for certain types of campaign, but there's no denying that a lot of the game has to be thrown out altogether if nobody's higher than 6th level.

What if you're playing with something like Gnorman's e6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250820)?

Something made to use e6?

[Kelb_Panthera]

What if you're playing with something like Gnorman's e6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250820)?

Something made to use e6?

With something like that, you're still throwing out a huge chunk of the existing system. You're just importing homebrew to try and fill in the gaps.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it's hardly the same thing as standard D&D 3.X.

[Zale]

With something like that, you're still throwing out a huge chunk of the existing system. You're just importing homebrew to try and fill in the gaps.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it's hardly the same thing as standard D&D 3.X.

I guess.

Though most of those classes have more features in six levels than most do in twenty.

And there's less variance in power level than in the normal game.

But, all that really matters is if everyone's having fun.

[jseah]

Can't we just give warrior abilities on par with spells? Other than nerfing wizards, warriors could get buffs. Alot of them.

They can start with disables (I break his arm!), melee/range conversions (bloodwind anyone?) and tactical mobility (teleport X ft and make attack). Moving up to information gathering, strategic mobility (dreamwalking? planeshift?) and schrodinger's bag of tricks (with massively powered up versions of alchemical devices)

Probably won't match the truly powerful spells, but will at least reach a competitive power level.

[Zale]

Can't we just give warrior abilities on par with spells? Other than nerfing wizards, warriors could get buffs. Alot of them.

They can start with disables (I break his arm!), melee/range conversions (bloodwind anyone?) and tactical mobility (teleport X ft and make attack). Moving up to information gathering, strategic mobility (dreamwalking? planeshift?) and schrodinger's bag of tricks (with massively powered up versions of alchemical devices)

Probably won't match the truly powerful spells, but will at least reach a competitive power level.

Some ToB Maneuvers do things like that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Can't we just give warrior abilities on par with spells? Other than nerfing wizards, warriors could get buffs. Alot of them.

They can start with disables (I break his arm!), melee/range conversions (bloodwind anyone?) and tactical mobility (teleport X ft and make attack). Moving up to information gathering, strategic mobility (dreamwalking? planeshift?) and schrodinger's bag of tricks (with massively powered up versions of alchemical devices)

Probably won't match the truly powerful spells, but will at least reach a competitive power level.

Yea, you just described ToB there.

It's not 'on par', but it's a LOT closer.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I guess.

Though most of those classes have more features in six levels than most do in twenty.

And there's less variance in power level than in the normal game.

But, all that really matters is if everyone's having fun.I agree, that is the most important thing.


Can't we just give warrior abilities on par with spells? Other than nerfing wizards, warriors could get buffs. Alot of them.

They can start with disables (I break his arm!), melee/range conversions (bloodwind anyone?) and tactical mobility (teleport X ft and make attack). Moving up to information gathering, strategic mobility (dreamwalking? planeshift?) and schrodinger's bag of tricks (with massively powered up versions of alchemical devices)

Probably won't match the truly powerful spells, but will at least reach a competitive power level.

I agree with the others. That which you have described is pretty much what tomb of battle does. The common complaints about the book are that it's too "anime" or too "wuxia" or that it's just magic by another name. The problem with these arguments is that european legend is rife with warriors who could perform amazing martial feats and that most of the maneuvers aren't magical in nature at all. As I and the others said, it does narrow the gap between casters and non-casters, but it doesn't close it. All-in-all a good book to have IMHO.

[jseah]

While ToB has elements of this, what I wanted was for warriors to do more than hitting things with a stick. ToB still has far too much of it.

Also, ToB's stuff is all local and often very short ranged. There are no strategic abilities on par with teleport and the like. Terrain modification (wall smashing abilities? large alchemical fog cloud?) is basically non-existent.


To be sure, my vision of a high level warrior is inherently magical, so perhaps that doesn't count. Casters warp reality around themselves, is a common thing. I was thinking of changing it to "all high level characters warp reality", because against the reality warpers, badass normals just will not cut it.
Solution: there are no badass normals, everyone turns into a reality warper.

[Tyndmyr]

So, in the game, physical classes lose out to casters over time. Does anyone have suggestions to avert this without the warriors multiclassing? There's a TVTropes article about this, but I dun know how to put links in text. :c

Meh. This all depends on the game. Is it level two? The melee classes mostly crush the casters. Even the fighter. However, a crusader at low levels is hilariously powerful.

Level 15? Entirely the other way around.

Epic levels? Well, those who went melee first are better off. Fighter 20/Wizard 20 is directly superior to Wizard 20/Fighter 20. In addition, enemies start picking up wide ranges of immunities, greatly limiting caster contributions. Most, however, are still vulnerable to large amounts of damage in the face, DR not being a major obstacle to an epic charger.

Obviously, they're not balanced at most given points in time. But it's nothing at all like a linear warrior/quadratic wizard.


Also, ToB's stuff is all local and often very short ranged. There are no strategic abilities on par with teleport and the like. Terrain modification (wall smashing abilities? large alchemical fog cloud?) is basically non-existent.

ToB wall-smashing strikes appear at level 1. +damage and ignoring hardness = wall smashing.

Also, Iron Heart Surge.

[Eldan]

Meh. This all depends on the game. Is it level two? The melee classes mostly crush the casters. Even the fighter. However, a crusader at low levels is hilariously powerful.


There's still a few things a wizard can do at the very lowest levels, though. A wizard with Grease, one save-or-suck spell, Abjurant Jaunt and a crossbow or some alchemist's fire doesn't look that bad against the fighter, mainly because hit points are still low enough that three hits get dangerous even for the fighter.

[willpell]

The reason casters are quadratic is simple enough: every level, they get +1 caster level to all their spells, and they get at least one additional spell per day, and every two levels they get access to more powerful spells. That's actually not quadratic, it's cubic, or at least ^2.5ic (no idea what the proper term is there, if there even is one), but two of those advantages probably add up to equal the third in overall importance, so "quadratic" is close enough. But since the fighter doesn't get +1 damage at every level AND one extra attack every two levels AND a wider variety of special maneuvers he can use each day, he just can't compete.

If you want to make casters more like fighters, one option is to take their existing number of spells per day, multiply each number by its corresponding level (not sure what to do about cantrips, probably treat them as 1/2 or perhaps just 1), add all those numbers, and make that your daily "caster levels" limit. You then spend those caster levels when you want a spell, so being a Wizard 10 instead of a Wizard 5 doesn't automatically make your Fireball do 10d6 instead of 5, you have to actually spend more caster levels out of your daily allotment, which has increased since level 5 but not so dramatically as with the written system. This is a quick and dirty translation, far from perfect I'm sure, but it makes wizards more linear.

If you want to make fighters more like casters, it'll probably take a bit more work to get the numbers right, but I'd say treat fighter bonus feats and certain qualities like Sneak Attack, Rage, or Flurry of Blows as "maneuvers", and give the fighter a certain number of manuevers usable a certain number of times per day. (This probably bears a distinct resemblance to both TOB and 4E, but once again, this is all quick-and-dirty, for the GM who wants to buy no new books and learn no new rules other than the ones s/he made up.) Thusly, instead of having only 1 new feat at 1st level and another at 2nd level, perhaps the fighter gets 3 at first level and 2 more at 2nd, but they're each usable only twice per day. Again, just wildly guessing on the numbers, but this at least begins to make fighters more quadratic, by giving them more feats and more uses of the same feats with every level they gain.

[Lord_Gareth]

There's still a few things a wizard can do at the very lowest levels, though. A wizard with Grease, one save-or-suck spell, Abjurant Jaunt and a crossbow or some alchemist's fire doesn't look that bad against the fighter, mainly because hit points are still low enough that three hits get dangerous even for the fighter.

Plus you can always use Sleep and Color Spray against humanoid/monstrous humanoid opponents. Even at low levels, wizards can end entire encounters with single spells.

[Answerer]

Quadratic is scaling proportional to x2. (the progression, from 0, goes 02=0, 12=1, 22=4, 32=9, 42=16, 52=25, etc.)

Spells don't do that. Consider exponential growth, base 2 – dramatically faster than quadratic once you get past 4 – that's 2x. That means every spell level is twice as good as the one before it. (the progression, from 0, goes 20=1, 21=2, 22=4, 23=8, 24=16, 25=32, etc.)

Except, most spell levels are generally regarded as more than twice as good as the spell level before it. Versatile Spellcaster is not a very popular feat, after all. In fact, the factor itself also increases as the spell level does. That becomes a more complicated formula, and I'm not going to guess what it would be called, but we're talking about growth that is faster than exponential – which is insane.

[Roguenewb]

The math being thrown around hits the nail on the head. I've always tried to bring up the fact that wizards are scaling on three axes (spells per day, caster level, and highest spell level), where fighters are scaling *at best* on two (Base attack bonus, and feat advantage). This doesn't count the axes that both classes share.

All in all, I think what kills the fighter is the fifteen minute workday. The limits to spellcasting are hilariously useless when the wizard decides the day ends, instead of the other way around.

[Answerer]

All in all, I think what kills the fighter is the fifteen minute workday. The limits to spellcasting are hilariously useless when the wizard decides the day ends, instead of the other way around.
Nope, not really. At least not at mid-to-high levels.

High-level Wizards don't typically need to use a lot or their most powerful spells for an average encounter. And they have a lot of spells. A Wizard who knows he's going to have to get a lot done today has a lot of options to be economical with them.

The Fighter doesn't really have the same options. He has to wade into melee, and he has to risk his HPs. Sure, out of combat healing is commonplace, but it's draining resources. Plus, lots of magical items have pretty severe daily use limits. His class features may not require rest, but his gear – from the Anklets of Translocation to the Blurring shield to whatever else, plus whatever he's using to heal himself – those certainly do.

It's very much possible – even probable – that a high-level Wizard would have greater staying power than does a high-level Fighter.

[dextercorvia]

Except, most spell levels are generally regarded as more than twice as good as the spell level before it. Versatile Spellcaster is not a very popular feat, after all.

I'm not following your argument. You claim that most spell levels are more than twice as powerful as the level below -- wouldn't that mean that Versatile Spellcaster was a great choice, and therefore should be popular?

[Togo]

Nope, not really. At least not at mid-to-high levels.

High-level Wizards don't typically need to use a lot or their most powerful spells for an average encounter. And they have a lot of spells. A Wizard who knows he's going to have to get a lot done today has a lot of options to be economical with them.

Well yes and no.

Wizards get a lot of low level spells as they go up in level. High level spells stay constant or go down (because they're harder to find, and because stats increase less than linerarly with level.) A wizard has about 6-9 spells of his highest three levels per day, whether that is at 5th level or 15th level.

If your wizard is regularly winning fights with spells below that, so a 12th level wizard winning fights with 3rd level spells, it may be that there are balance problems in what you're throwing at him. I'm not sure what you consider an average encounter, but it doesn't sound like much of a challenge for anyone.


The Fighter doesn't really have the same options. He has to wade into melee, and he has to risk his HPs. Sure, out of combat healing is commonplace, but it's draining resources. Plus, lots of magical items have pretty severe daily use limits. His class features may not require rest, but his gear – from the Anklets of Translocation to the Blurring shield to whatever else, plus whatever he's using to heal himself – those certainly do.

Hardly. First off, the figher doesn't have to wade into melee any more than the wizard does. He's expected to by the rest of the party, because he's better at resisting attack, but he doesn't need to.

The fighter's item-based solutions to problems run out more slowly than the wizards spells solutions for the same problem. A fighter can use anklets of translocation twice in a day. How many wizards fill more than two slots with diminsion door? If you do memorise multiple spells for each contingency, how are you simultaneously claiming to be flexibile and have lots of spells to cast in combat? Meanwhile a fighter can own multiple items. Anklets cost 1.4k for goodness sake. Buy more than one pair.


It's very much possible – even probable – that a high-level Wizard would have greater staying power than does a high-level Fighter.

I really don't see how? What's the fighter going to run out of while the wizard is running out of spells? Hp? They both lose those. The only reason why a fighter might lose them faster is if he is drawing attacks away from the wizard. Out of combat healing is cheap and plentiful in any case. Meanwhile, even casting a third of the wizard's spells makes him noticeably less flexible than he was at the start of the day.

You can build wizards that rely on long duration buffs to mimic warriror capabilties, and you can build stealth archers who avoid combat altogether, but these are atypical cases. The basic design of the class is that wizard's abilities are limited per day, while warriors aren't.

[jseah]

ToB wall-smashing strikes appear at level 1. +damage and ignoring hardness = wall smashing.

Also, Iron Heart Surge.
IHS is a defense, also personal range. You can't IHS an ally's condition.

Wall smashing is only one example of terrain modification. (and I forgot that adamantine weapons exist) Casters have more than one battlefield control effect, and of that class of spells, only a (large) subset modify the terrain.


My point is that what a character can do is divided into a number of areas:
1. Personal defenses/buffs; hp; stats
2. Attack rolls; debuffs; healing/recovering allies
3. Tactical mobility and hindrances
4. Strategic mobility and hindrances
5. Information gathering and secrecy
6. World-shaping (from craft X to stone shape)
7. Global effects & reality altering

Apart from 7, each class and most builds should have a variety of effective choices in every single area.
Unless a player takes care to avoid a category, any high level character should be able to contribute their own abilities in any specific challenge of a particular area.

EDIT:
add,
8. Social abilties

[Boci]

The fighter's item-based solutions to problems run out more slowly than the wizards spells solutions for the same problem. A fighter can use anklets of translocation twice in a day. How many wizards fill more than two slots with diminsion door? If you do memorise multiple spells for each contingency, how are you simultaneously claiming to be flexibile and have lots of spells to cast in combat? Meanwhile a fighter can own multiple items. Anklets cost 1.4k for goodness sake. Buy more than one pair.

And a wizard cannot possess such an item because...?


I really don't see how? What's the fighter going to run out of while the wizard is running out of spells? Hp? They both lose those.

Fighters do not have defensive buffs like displacement and mirror image. Which at higher levels is much less than a third of their spells. Plus a wizard can have immunities to certain state damages and fatiguing effects. Plus a fighter cannot summon a wall of flesh to hide behind if things are going badly. Plus a fighter is more vulnerable to battlefield control, which in turn makes them more vulnerable to taking damage.

[Togo]

I'm not following your argument. You claim that most spell levels are more than twice as powerful as the level below -- wouldn't that mean that Versatile Spellcaster was a great choice, and therefore should be popular?

I've found versatile spellcaster to be a very popular feat. Most Gish builds are based on it. Compare that to something like... magic of the land. :smallconfused:
----
EDIT - Doh! Sorry! Confused versatile spellcaster with practiced spellcaster. Objection withdrawn! :smallredface:

[Kelb_Panthera]

While ToB has elements of this, what I wanted was for warriors to do more than hitting things with a stick. ToB still has far too much of it.

Also, ToB's stuff is all local and often very short ranged. There are no strategic abilities on par with teleport and the like. Terrain modification (wall smashing abilities? large alchemical fog cloud?) is basically non-existent.


To be sure, my vision of a high level warrior is inherently magical, so perhaps that doesn't count. Casters warp reality around themselves, is a common thing. I was thinking of changing it to "all high level characters warp reality", because against the reality warpers, badass normals just will not cut it.
Solution: there are no badass normals, everyone turns into a reality warper.

You're half right in that ToB's additions are mostly new and exciting ways to "kill it with a pointy," but there are elements of those other things you mention.

Teleportation is handled by three shadow hand maneuvers: shadow jaunt, shadow stride, and shadow blink; one for each type of action.

BFC is included in the desert wind school: salamander charge charge, as well as some of the PrC class features.

Wall smashing and object breaking in general is covered by the mountain hammer line of stone dragon strikes, no adamantine required.

There are further examples of broader tactical choice in the PrC's, but you're right in that there's really nothing like a fog-cloud or stone shape. There isn't supposed to be.

The whole point of playing a warrior, for many people, is that you don't want to be a guy that warps reality with the power of his mind. If you do want to play the magical warrior, you can gish with a ToB class. Jade phoenix mage and ruby knight vindicator, two PrC's from ToB, are designed specifically for blending maneuvers with arcane and divine magic, respectively. There are even some feat options for blending psionics into the mix, though a PrC would've been nice.

I like ToB, but I'm hardly a fan-boy. I, personally, don't believe that the initiator classes invalidate the classes they're touted as replacing, but neither do I think they bring martial types up to "reality bender" levels of power or versatility. That's my 2cp, at least.

[Tyndmyr]

There's still a few things a wizard can do at the very lowest levels, though. A wizard with Grease, one save-or-suck spell, Abjurant Jaunt and a crossbow or some alchemist's fire doesn't look that bad against the fighter, mainly because hit points are still low enough that three hits get dangerous even for the fighter.

That's a fairly optimized wizard, is pretty niche, and even so, conjuration doesn't have another save or suck at first level.

Note additionally that grease does not immobilize you, and doesn't stop the fighter from popping out a javelin or something. So, in a straight duel, a wizard has...a chance.

However, comparing them side by side in party, the bog standard fighter is still better at level two. Having only a couple of spells is a big downside.


Plus you can always use Sleep and Color Spray against humanoid/monstrous humanoid opponents. Even at low levels, wizards can end entire encounters with single spells.

Both have notable downsides. Firstly, sleep is a full round spell. This makes it basically useless if they know you're there. Color spray, on the other hand, has a range of spitting distance. Both are useless on things like undead.



Except, most spell levels are generally regarded as more than twice as good as the spell level before it. Versatile Spellcaster is not a very popular feat, after all. In fact, the factor itself also increases as the spell level does. That becomes a more complicated formula, and I'm not going to guess what it would be called, but we're talking about growth that is faster than exponential – which is insane.

You are correct in that Versatile Spellcaster is not a very popular feat. However, all your conclusions stemming from that are exactly wrong. See, versatile spellcaster allows you to swap two spells of a level for a spell of +1 level. So, if a spell of x+1 level WAS considered more valuable than two spells of x level....it would be popular.

It's not, so they aren't. Versatile Spellcaster sees very little use outside of obscure TO builds.

Spell slots ARE of increasing value, but not more than doubling value.


IHS is a defense, also personal range. You can't IHS an ally's condition.

It is still an amazingly all-purpose defense. In the scope of D&D, it's fantastic. The ability to ignore the wizard's modification of reality is a kind of equality.


My point is that what a character can do is divided into a number of areas:
1. Personal defenses/buffs; hp; stats

ToB maneuvers and stances affect literally all of these.


2. Attack rolls; debuffs; healing/recovering allies

Ditto.


3. Tactical mobility and hindrances

You can use maneuvers, or hell, even feats. Stand Still is one of my favorites, for instance.


4. Strategic mobility and hindrances

I can get this without spellcasting or magic items, so meh. Hindrances are somewhat harder, but that's remarkably specific.


5. Information gathering and secrecy

Divination spells are not what they are cracked up to be. Most are very specific, and are situational. Not a cure-all. You can frankly mostly replicate this with a skill check.


6. World-shaping (from craft X to stone shape)

From the standpoint of tossing up a barrier or making a hole in one? melee can do this in spades.


7. Global effects & reality altering

Look, almost all spells and a shizton of abilities alter reality by any sane definition.

Global effects, though? Go on. Give me an example of a spell with global effects.


I've found versatile spellcaster to be a very popular feat. Most Gish builds are based on it. Compare that to something like... magic of the land. :smallconfused:

I have never seen it used outside of TO. Artificer gish build doesn't care about it. I've never seen it in a abjurant champion build. I've never seen a duskblade with it. Sorcadin doesn't rely on it.

What "most gish builds" are these mysterious popular things that have hidden themselves from the world?

[Menteith]

I have never seen it used outside of TO. Artificer gish build doesn't care about it. I've never seen it in a abjurant champion build. I've never seen a duskblade with it. Sorcadin doesn't rely on it.

What "most gish builds" are these mysterious popular things that have hidden themselves from the world?

Duskblade 3, Factotum 2, Trapsmith 1, Swiftblade X can use it to power Trapsmith slots (turning level 0 Duskblade slots into Haste is decent). It's a pretty niche use, though.

[Boci]

Divination spells are not what they are cracked up to be. Most are very specific, and are situational. Not a cure-all. You can frankly mostly replicate this with a skill check.

Yeah, but skill checks have two notable drawbacks: 1. time taken. 2. Skill checks generally involves, at the end of things, some else telling you the answer. Meaning you risk giving away the fact that you are investigating the matter.


From the standpoint of tossing up a barrier or making a hole in one? melee can do this in spades.

True, but not mid combat. Not even prior to combat, unless they have at least an hour to prepare. Barring magical items I guess.

[Zale]

Anklets cost 1.4k for goodness sake. Buy more than one pair.

Yes, but you would have to pay more than that to make them slotless.

Otherwise you get to dig through your bag to find it and put it on. Which will probably be lethal.

[Togo]

And a wizard cannot possess such an item because...?

He can. I don't understand what you're getting at.


Fighters do not have defensive buffs like displacement and mirror image. Which at higher levels is much less than a third of their spells. Plus a wizard can have immunities to certain state damages and fatiguing effects. Plus a fighter cannot summon a wall of flesh to hide behind if things are going badly. Plus a fighter is more vulnerable to battlefield control, which in turn makes them more vulnerable to taking damage.

Warriors can get defensive buffs. They cost more but last longer. The spells you describe are minutes or rounds per level, so if you want them up, reliably, for even a majority of fights, then you either need to pump up the level or get them multiple times. Immunities to states are common abilities for spellcasters and non-spellcasters. A mount, animal companion, Tower Shield or similar is a wall to hide behind. Warriors, and non-spellcasters generally, aren't any more vulnerable to battlefield control than anyone else.

None of which really addresses the original claim, that fighters would reliably run out of hp before wizards runs out of spells, despite out of combat healing being cheap and plentiful.

[Tyndmyr]

Duskblade 3, Factotum 2, Trapsmith 1, Swiftblade X can use it to power Trapsmith slots (turning level 0 Duskblade slots into Haste is decent). It's a pretty niche use, though.

That's...remarkably niche, yeah. In addition, I would find the idea that you can gleefully move across spell lists to be suspect. Sacrificing slots from one casting class to gain slots in an entirely different casting class is not explicitly granted, nor used in the example, and it's contrary to how most things interact with casting.


Yeah, but skill checks have two notable drawbacks: 1. time taken. 2. Skill checks generally involves, at the end of things, some else telling you the answer. Meaning you risk giving away the fact that you are investigating the matter.

Most divination spells come down to asking someone else for the answer. Commune, contact other plane are the usual go-to spells for this. The fact that they're gods only ensures that they're people well placed to do something about it if they care. It's no different than asking people, really.

And divination spells are traditionally pretty slow. COP and Commune take ten minutes, for instance. Augury is much faster, but very limited, and with a pretty notable failure rate until fairly high level.


True, but not mid combat. Not even prior to combat, unless they have at least an hour to prepare. Barring magical items I guess.

What, you mean like creating barriers and wrecking barriers, with your hands slowly? Like a peasant? Oh, my, no.

Nah, you just smash through them in a single strike.

And hell, if you're a crusader, and you haven't made yourself into a mobile obstacle, you're doing something terribly wrong.

[Togo]

Yeah, but skill checks have two notable drawbacks: 1. time taken. 2. Skill checks generally involves, at the end of things, some else telling you the answer. Meaning you risk giving away the fact that you are investigating the matter.

You have a point, but skill checks are still both quicker and much less obvious than scrying on someone.

[Menteith]

That's...remarkably niche, yeah. In addition, I would find the idea that you can gleefully move across spell lists to be suspect. Sacrificing slots from one casting class to gain slots in an entirely different casting class is not explicitly granted, nor used in the example, and it's contrary to how most things interact with casting.

/shrug

"For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."

It not unreasonable to disallow it for going against intent, but it's a legal use of the feat. I've also seen it used on Duskblade/Suel Arcanamachs. I could see it being used with a Nar Demonbinder for the same reason. I've seen it in some gestalt builds (using spells off one list to power a different list). I'll stop being OT now :smallsmile:, just wanted to point out that it does see a little play.

[Tyndmyr]

/shrug

"For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."

It not unreasonable to disallow it for going against intent, but it's a legal use of the feat. I've also seen it used on Duskblade/Suel Arcanamachs. It also can come up in some gestalt builds (using spells off one list to power a different list).

I won't say it's outright illegal...but it's a dodgy interpretation at best. The example is a single classed sorcerer, and thus, it really doesn't cover the case of a caster with multiple casting classes.

After all, all the spells he knows are sorc spells. Of course HE can cast any of them. That doesn't mean the mystic theurge can.

[Menteith]

I won't say it's outright illegal...but it's a dodgy interpretation at best. The example is a single classed sorcerer, and thus, it really doesn't cover the case of a caster with multiple casting classes.

After all, all the spells he knows are sorc spells. Of course HE can cast any of them. That doesn't mean the mystic theurge can.

This is a pretty harmless, RAW legal use that lets an otherwise dead feat see play. Again, I can definitely see why one would ban it (because the interpretation does make assumptions), but I don't think it's a problem. And for the record, I don't approve of the super sketchy TO interpretation use of Versatile Spellcaster (using it to cast spells you normally couldn't; clerics "know" every spell on their list, even spells they can't currently cast, technically).

[Tyndmyr]

This is a pretty harmless, RAW legal use that lets an otherwise dead feat see play. Again, I can definitely see why one would ban it (because the interpretation does make assumptions), but I don't think it's a problem. And for the record, I don't approve of the super sketchy TO interpretation use of Versatile Spellcaster (using it to cast spells you normally couldn't; clerics "know" every spell on their list, even spells they can't currently cast, technically).

I don't think it's terribly broken, no...and it does give a niche use to an otherwise ignored feat, sure.

But yeah, I dislike where it's going with that. The implications of that particular reading open up some wild territory, and taken to an extreme, would invalidate other feats like Alternate Source Spell, and I think we can safely say that was not the intention of the feat.

Now, to get back to the topic of the value of a spell slot...I'd be perfectly ok assigning them a numeric value equivalent to the level. A second level spell is worth about two first level spells, but a third level spell is only worth about three first level spells, and so on. This, incidentally, meshes pretty well with spells like Mnemonic Enhancer.

[Rubik]

IHS is a defense, also personal range. You can't IHS an ally's condition. "Your lycanthropy makes me sad. IRON HEART SURGE!"

Yatta.

[jseah]

ToB maneuvers and stances affect literally all of these.
Yes, all of that is true. However, ToB is still lower power than a T1 caster simply due to spells addressing all of those areas, effectively and with a variety of options of each specific situation. ToB doesn't warp reality the way a T1 caster does.

Wall smashing is like warriors having something a bit like disintegrate. (they are functionally the same thing when applied to walls) But disintegrate to manipulate the battlefield is not the only way BC works. ToB presents *some* options, but at lower flexibility (and power).

So the solution is easy. Take what ToB did, expand the number of options and ways of doing things (and types of effects, basically everything) by about 3 to 4 fold and then warriors can be T1 too! And they should well be.


The whole point of playing a warrior, for many people, is that you don't want to be a guy that warps reality with the power of his mind.
So you warp reality with your awesomeness. Or Rule of Cool. Whatever. I don't really understand how those things work anyway.
*shrug*

I don't see why it needs justification. High level characters are at demigod power levels. If you don't warp reality, you aren't in the same league, you are not a high level character.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You missed my point. When I said, "people often play martial types because they don't want to bend reality with their minds," I meant, they don't want to warp reality at all. A straight warblade; or fighter or barbarian or knight; doesn't have a single class feature that is magical in nature, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Will they be able to go toe-to-toe one-on-one with a caster that's being used to his fullest potential? Probably not. Will he still be able to be competetive with most of the monsters in the MM? Unless the DM's been stingy with treasure, yes. Will he still be able to compete with other non-casters at his level? Definitely, yes.

Just because the imbalance is there, doesn't mean it has to come into play. Just because magic is there, doesn't mean it has to be used at every opportunity.

For people that want to play a non-magical character, or a character for whom magic is secondary to non-magical bad-assery, ToB gives a fair selection of options to make that choice more exciting, without having to dumpster dive through half a dozen books.

I can make a straight fighter that has just as many combat options as a swordsage by wracking up a mess of tactical feats, but if I want to keep things simple, or if my friend doesn't own anything beyond the PHB, we can both get a character that's mechanically interesting by referencing ToB, I by simply grabbing it off the shelf and he by borrowing my copy. There's nothing wrong, and more than a little right, about that.

[Rubik]

You missed my point. When I said, "people often play martial types because they don't want to bend reality with their minds," I meant, they don't want to warp reality at all. A straight warblade; or fighter or barbarian or knight; doesn't have a single class feature that is magical in nature, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Then they'll have to stick with low levels, because anything above about level 6 will be superhero-range. By level 20 you want Superman in your party, not Aquaman-in-the-desert (which most mundanes are; they're good when it rains, but not really that great otherwise).

If it's an seafaring campaign, however...

Though Spider-Man will do in a pinch, which is basically ToB.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Maybe I'm not saying this right. How's this: you don't have to be a spell-caster to be a badass.

You do have to get magical equipment if you want to play in mid-high level, but that's not bending reality. That just being better equiped. A straight Fighter or Barbarian with the appropriate equipment will be just as functional an level 16 as he was at level 6. Will there be some challenges beyond him? Yes. Will he compete with casters for power or versatility? Almost certainly not. Will he be boring to play? That depends on the player, not the class.

NPC's with class levels don't have to make up the majority of encounters. They don't have to be casters, and they don't have to be highly optimized.

The game is perfectly viable at high levels if you follow the guidelines layed out in the core rulebooks, and don't get too nuts with making builds that are optimized to do whatever it is they do better than the designers ever anticipated.

Even in a high-op environment, the badass normals can do just fine if the DM doesn't use Batman to crush them before they even realize they're in danger. This is especially true if the badass normals have a god wizard on their side. Most PC's don't travel alone, last I heard.

Ultimately, if the party is optimized to similar levels and the DM is doing his job of putting together challenges suitable to the party's abilities, any class is perfectly viable.

Optimization is not the entirety of gameplay. It's only one aspect. It is, perhaps unfortunately, the most concrete aspect of the game, and consequently gets the most discussion over the internet. :smalltongue:

I think that might make what I'm saying clearer?

[Answerer]

I'm not following your argument. You claim that most spell levels are more than twice as powerful as the level below -- wouldn't that mean that Versatile Spellcaster was a great choice, and therefore should be popular?
Derp, I had the feat's name wrong. I meant the one that allows you to split higher-level spell slots into lower-level spells. But it turns out that it only gives you spells whose level adds up to the slot in question, rather than two of the level below it.

Anyway, yeah, my mathematical analysis fails if adding lower-level slots into higher-level slots isn't viewed as a good idea. Though, I would... suggest that it is possible that people would consider doing so more often if it did not come at the cost of a (rather precious) feat?

[dextercorvia]

That's a fairly optimized wizard, is pretty niche, and even so, conjuration doesn't have another save or suck at first level.

Note additionally that grease does not immobilize you, and doesn't stop the fighter from popping out a javelin or something. So, in a straight duel, a wizard has...a chance.

Sticky Floor (RotD) Save or Immobilized, pass your save and you are still Entangled. The spell lasts for hours per level, too, so doesn't suffer from Grease's level 1 quandary. It is Conjuration, answering your first point about the school not having a second Save or suck.


Derp, I had the feat's name wrong. I meant the one that allows you to split higher-level spell slots into lower-level spells. But it turns out that it only gives you spells whose level adds up to the slot in question, rather than two of the level below it.

Anyway, yeah, my mathematical analysis fails if adding lower-level slots into higher-level slots isn't viewed as a good idea. Though, I would... suggest that it is possible that people would consider doing so more often if it did not come at the cost of a (rather precious) feat?

I think Tyndmyr's right that you don't have more than a doubling (most of the time anyway) from one level to the next. I actually like the feat, myself, and not just for TO shenanigans.

[jseah]

Maybe I'm not saying this right. How's this: you don't have to be a spell-caster to be a badass.
It's more like what styles the game supports and what mechanics it uses to do that. For "realistic" fantasy, low level is best. T1s transition into heroes and then superheroes around mid-level and world-shaping demigod at high levels.

You can make all classes follow this or you can nerf the T1s by rescaling them. If you nerf, you lose the world-shaping demigod part of the curve, but if you're not going to deal with that, then it is not a problem.

But if you DO want to keep it, then clearly you need to make the other classes follow that curve.
Otherwise you end up with Linear Fighters/Quadratic Wizards. You end up with fighters twiddling their thumbs or fighting mooks while the wizard in his tower battles for the life of the realm against an unknown foe on the other side of the continent. Even if the wizard teleports a fully buffed and blinged-out fighter to kick everyone's ass on the enemy side, does not change who actually makes the important decisions. (btw, those are really scary; you haven't seen anything like fully buffed until your player hands you a buff procedure about 2 pages long)

So clearly a campaign with a defined scope (eg. save a city from the orc horde) should pick a range of levels to stay within that scope. Or if you go the whole level range, then be prepared to have an undefined scope.
Players going from L1 to L20 will change from ratcatchers to heros of the land to god-like entities; and the scope of their troubles should scale likewise. If you've played Age of Wonders (or the more recent re-imagining, Warlock: Master of the Arcane), this is the difference between the Great Mages and their spellcasting heroes.

And for goodness sake, do not falsely advertise the scope of the campaign.


Also, I forgot to answer one of Tyndmyr's qns:
An example of a global or reality warping level effect is something like Genesis and Permanent Teleportation Circles (or Gates or whatever similar thing). These things impact directly on the setting and can significantly change the level of problems the players are dealing with.
Often these "abilities" are not going to be singular spells/class abilities, high level combinations can result in setting-breaking effects.

[ThiagoMartell]

You could gestalt 20 levels of every tier 3 class and below and they wouldn't come close to the power and versatility of an optimized level 20 tier 1.

They're that insane.

Are you sure? That's all the tricks from Beguiler, Factotum, Dread Necromancer and initiators.
You're a melee beast, with all maneuvers, three recovery mechanics and Arcane Channeling (further boosted thanks to the Dread Necro list).
You have access to the wizard/sorcerer spell list through Factotum.
You have the best chassis ever, with all good saves, 8 skill points per level, all skills as class skills and d12 HD. You have a lot of Int synergy, adding it to basically everything.
Between Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, you get many of the broken tricks the tier 1s get. In fact, I'd say a Beguiler//Dread Necro itself functions at t1.

[Psyren]

Beguiler's right on the edge of T2 though (if not already there), so it may not count.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I never said anything about high level martial types being realistic.

If you want realism D&D is probably the wrong game. What I was saying, and I had hoped that last post would've made it clearer, is that high level martial types are still a viable option in many, if not most, campaigns.

Unless one of the players is playing a primary caster, the T1's never have to be part of the equation. Just because they're there doesn't mean that anyone has to use them.

The balance of the game is only relevant if you use every part of the game. Unlike with a video game, you don't have to use any part of PnP game you don't want to.

You can save the world from an impeding abyssal invasion without ever casting a single spell, unless the GM makes a particular spell necessary. Even then magic can be bought in item form. Bring on the mcguffin!

My point is this:

The "linear warrior, quadratic mage" phenomenon is only a problem if you let it be a problem.

Neither I nor anyone else that looks at the 3.5 system with cold, detached logic can deny that the imbalance exists. I emphatically -do- deny that it's an automatic problem simply because it exists.

Hopefully I got my point accross this time. :smallsigh:

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, in the game, physical classes lose out to casters over time. Does anyone have suggestions to avert this without the warriors multiclassing? There's a TVTropes article about this, but I dun know how to put links in text. :c

This is the op.

Here is the answer: The only way to prevent this phenomenon without homebrew or switching to a different system, is to nerf casters.

There are various in-game ways to do this, and several at-the-table ways to accomplish it as well.

At-the-table:

1) Ban some or all casters. This is the most direct, but most restrictive solution available.

2) Ban problems spells, and known rules exploits. If you want a comprehensive list of known exploits, just ask. The Playground will be happy to help.

3) Ask players that are familiar with the system not to push their caster characters too far beyond what the warriors can do. I highly recomend this as the easiest and most applicable solution.

In-game

1) Limit the availability of new spells to casters. The rules state that most prep'ed arcane casters have to find and copy new spells into their book. Don't make them easy to find. The DMG suggests making training necessary before a character can actually add the abilities gained at level up. Selectively apply this to spontaneous casters spells known list, such that he has to learn new spells from someone else.

2) Most divine casters serve a god. When they prep spells, tell them that their god refused to grant the problem spell at this time. This allows the spell to stay in play, but also makes the divine caster need to justify preparing it. Use this option very sparingly if at all.

3) No-magic marts. If the players have only the magic items from treasure drops available, the martial types can be favored. This allows them to keep up with casters better than they could if everyone gets exactly what they want. Be aware that this fact should be declared at the very beginning of play, and should not be used to favor the non-casters exclusively.

3b) As an at-the-table addendum to point 3, ban crafting feats. This further limits what items are available, though it does raise the question of where items come from.

These are the only things I can think of ATM. I'll add more to these lists if I come up with any others.

[ThiagoMartell]

I never said anything about high level martial types being realistic.

If you want realism D&D is probably the wrong game. What I was saying, and I had hoped that last post would've made it clearer, is that high level martial types are still a viable option in many, if not most, campaigns.

Unless one of the players is playing a primary caster, the T1's never have to be part of the equation. Just because they're there doesn't mean that anyone has to use them.

The balance of the game is only relevant if you use every part of the game. Unlike with a video game, you don't have to use any part of PnP game you don't want to.

You can save the world from an impeding abyssal invasion without ever casting a single spell, unless the GM makes a particular spell necessary. Even then magic can be bought in item form. Bring on the mcguffin!

My point is this:

The "linear warrior, quadratic mage" phenomenon is only a problem if you let it be a problem.

Neither I nor anyone else that looks at the 3.5 system with cold, detached logic can deny that the imbalance exists. I emphatically -do- deny that it's an automatic problem simply because it exists.

Hopefully I got my point accross this time. :smallsigh:
That was probably the best post I've ever read in these forums. You're the best, man.

[jseah]

The "linear warrior, quadratic mage" phenomenon is only a problem if you let it be a problem.

Neither I nor anyone else that looks at the 3.5 system with cold, detached logic can deny that the imbalance exists. I emphatically -do- deny that it's an automatic problem simply because it exists.
Oh, of course it is not a problem if you have agreements with players and/or restrictions in place. In essence, you are restricting those abilities that fall outside the scope of the campaign.
This is one way of counteracting the natural tendency to end up with "LW, QM" (what? I'm lazy =P); I called this the 'nerf' solution because it removes the ability of players to play at the strategic level.

My suggestion was to do the reverse. Make all characters able to play at any power level. They are both solutions, no?
Just that I almost never see this one. And it lets you run games you cannot run otherwise, see below.


You can save the world from an impeding abyssal invasion without ever casting a single spell, unless the GM makes a particular spell necessary. Even then magic can be bought in item form. Bring on the mcguffin!
And yes, by the power of plot that extends your abilities to allow you to solve the problem. Which means that the game is not about the abyssal invasion at all, since that problem cannot be solved with the players' abilities.

However, you CAN make a campaign around stopping a demon invasion without a macguffin to do it for you. eg.
Demon sightings have been on the rise for some time and the more inquisitive good guys have come up with a startling finding.
Some point in the past, some (un)lucky idiot summoned a demon caster which escaped. It is now summoning other demons. Of some demons that get summoned, some are casters or can summon other demons. Thus the invasion is being supported by Planar Binding cast without a circle.
The players have to hunt down the demon casters, who will be well protected by the other types.

Now the balance of power between the Outer Planes is being disturbed and the good-aligned gods are looking to correct this. They are unwilling to send angel armies as they fear the conflict will destroy the Prime Material (or at least most people in it), and so limit themselves to providing intelligence and support. Devils have also been sighted, and though they have a vested interest in stopping the invasion, they are likely to seize the opportunity to corrupt more souls with the excuse of stopping the demons.

Analysis:
It is harder than it looks at first glance. Demons can do it nearly anywhere, and while Planar Binding is highly limited by spells per day so the army grows slowly and every loss is painful to the demons, they can set up shop basically everywhere. Also, many of the bigger demons can teleport at will and caster demons are likely to have teleport on their list.

Luckily, demons are not known for their organization or long range plans; and the number of actual casters with enough levels to cast planar binding is very limited (demons don't cast innately).
A bidding war for every single scroll of planar binding will occur between the demons and non-demons, probably through proxies since neither side wants to be traced... etc. etc.

Local governments and theo/magocracies as well as every influential person will pick up some side effect of this 'war' and likely investigate. Rumours will get out, and eventually everyone will know leading to mass panic / taking sides. If the situation gets polarized enough, the cities and people who side with the demons and those who oppose them will escalate the war to engulf the entire known world (at which point the good-aligned gods will have no more excuse to hold back). On the bright side, the demons still don't have enough strength and are actually trying to avoid this result; which doesn't help you find them but at least they won't make you lose instantly.
This presents a strategic countdown to failure, which the players can see in-game and also affect (via misinformation or diplomacy or ...), but will obviously distract them from the main task of demon hunting.

Players have to be able to find the demon summoners, kill them past very good protection and chase down any who escape. Teleport will be more or less mandatory.
Interplanar diplomacy will likely factor in a great deal, as will any high level good-aligned NPCs. Recruiting other adventuring groups is likely to be useful. etc. etc.

Now is the critical time where the fate of the entire world hangs in balance. And no convienient solution exists.

Point being, this is the kind of scope a T1 caster might be dealing with at level 10-15. Nerf them, and this sort of campaign becomes impossible to win and thus cannot be run.

Obviously, there will be a number of holes in that since I conjured it up from thin air in about 15 mins. But I hope it makes the point that such a campaign *requires* that the players be able to do what a T1 caster can do at mid-high levels.

[ThiagoMartell]

And yes, by the power of plot that extends your abilities to allow you to solve the problem. Which means that the game is not about the abyssal invasion at all, since that problem cannot be solved with the players' abilities.


What...? Can't they find NPCs and convince them to help? Can't part of the campaign being about finding a high level wizard willing to play?
You don't have to be a fullcaster to be a D&D character and no party needs to have a t1 caster as a member. You can play D&D just fine this way. You need some of the magical items that were created exactly for situations like this to fight specific opponents. So what? Everyone needs magical items or the fragile 'balance' of 3.5 breaks down anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh, of course it is not a problem if you have agreements with players and/or restrictions in place. In essence, you are restricting those abilities that fall outside the scope of the campaign.
This is one way of counteracting the natural tendency to end up with "LW, QM" (what? I'm lazy =P); I called this the 'nerf' solution because it removes the ability of players to play at the strategic level.

My suggestion was to do the reverse. Make all characters able to play at any power level. They are both solutions, no?
Just that I almost never see this one. And it lets you run games you cannot run otherwise, see below.


And yes, by the power of plot that extends your abilities to allow you to solve the problem. Which means that the game is not about the abyssal invasion at all, since that problem cannot be solved with the players' abilities.

However, you CAN make a campaign around stopping a demon invasion without a macguffin to do it for you. eg.
Demon sightings have been on the rise for some time and the more inquisitive good guys have come up with a startling finding.
Some point in the past, some (un)lucky idiot summoned a demon caster which escaped. It is now summoning other demons. Of some demons that get summoned, some are casters or can summon other demons. Thus the invasion is being supported by Planar Binding cast without a circle.
The players have to hunt down the demon casters, who will be well protected by the other types.

Now the balance of power between the Outer Planes is being disturbed and the good-aligned gods are looking to correct this. They are unwilling to send angel armies as they fear the conflict will destroy the Prime Material (or at least most people in it), and so limit themselves to providing intelligence and support. Devils have also been sighted, and though they have a vested interest in stopping the invasion, they are likely to seize the opportunity to corrupt more souls with the excuse of stopping the demons.

Analysis:
It is harder than it looks at first glance. Demons can do it nearly anywhere, and while Planar Binding is highly limited by spells per day so the army grows slowly and every loss is painful to the demons, they can set up shop basically everywhere. Also, many of the bigger demons can teleport at will and caster demons are likely to have teleport on their list.

Luckily, demons are not known for their organization or long range plans; and the number of actual casters with enough levels to cast planar binding is very limited (demons don't cast innately).
A bidding war for every single scroll of planar binding will occur between the demons and non-demons, probably through proxies since neither side wants to be traced... etc. etc.

Local governments and theo/magocracies as well as every influential person will pick up some side effect of this 'war' and likely investigate. Rumours will get out, and eventually everyone will know leading to mass panic / taking sides. If the situation gets polarized enough, the cities and people who side with the demons and those who oppose them will escalate the war to engulf the entire known world (at which point the good-aligned gods will have no more excuse to hold back). On the bright side, the demons still don't have enough strength and are actually trying to avoid this result; which doesn't help you find them but at least they won't make you lose instantly.
This presents a strategic countdown to failure, which the players can see in-game and also affect (via misinformation or diplomacy or ...), but will obviously distract them from the main task of demon hunting.

Players have to be able to find the demon summoners, kill them past very good protection and chase down any who escape. Teleport will be more or less mandatory.
Interplanar diplomacy will likely factor in a great deal, as will any high level good-aligned NPCs. Recruiting other adventuring groups is likely to be useful. etc. etc.

Now is the critical time where the fate of the entire world hangs in balance. And no convienient solution exists.

Point being, this is the kind of scope a T1 caster might be dealing with at level 10-15. Nerf them, and this sort of campaign becomes impossible to win and thus cannot be run.

Obviously, there will be a number of holes in that since I conjured it up from thin air in about 15 mins. But I hope it makes the point that such a campaign *requires* that the players be able to do what a T1 caster can do at mid-high levels.

Yes, I suppose that in this very specific example, a caster could be necessary. At the same time, the DM made it necessary by giving a sub-set of demons caster levels.

By your own admission the demons planning the invasion want to keep a low-profile, but demons aren't exactly known for that. It could well develop into a war campaign if the problem isn't caught early enough. What's wrong with that?

Bottom line: you're arguing that casters are necessary in a game where casters are the enemy. To a certain extent that can be true, but a good DM won't optimize those enemy casters to the point that the all-martial party can't defeat them. If he pits the party against ubeatable foes and TPK's them, that's not good DM'ing. It's the fancy version of "rocks fall."

If you want to, you can introduce hombrew to try and raise the level of martial powers to caster level or simply multiclass into a casting class. That's a perfectly valid option, but if you don't want to do either of those things, then the DM should respect that choice, and make sure there are enemies there that you can meaningfully affect.

If one of the other players is playing a high-op T1 in a mid-op game with a party of martial types and trivializing encounters, he's the one that's doing something wrong, by invalidating his friends choices in playstyle. At this point it's an out of game issue and should be handled as such.

D&D is a social game. If you're not willing to compromise what you want so that everyone can have a good time, you're going to have one hell of a time not being asked to leave the game.

Edit: how does not playing a caster limit strategic options, beyond not having spells available? :smallconfused:

Edit 2: Isn't the whole game, "by the power of plot?" If there's no plot, why do these characters exist at all? Even in a sand-box game there has to be some reason for the party to remain in each-others' company, some driving force behind their actions. If there's not, what exactly is the point? I suppose you -could- play D&D as nothing more than a tactical combat simulation, but if you're doing litterally nothing but combat why not play an MMORPG?

[Boci]

Yes, I suppose that in this very specific example, a caster could be necessary. At the same time, the DM made it necessary by giving a sub-set of demons caster levels.

They could alternatively be using scrolls. Also explains why the demons cannot be low profile: they need to steal the scrolls, or kidnap an artificer/scroll scriber (if they exist).
Could also lead to a nasty surprise when the PCs find out that, shock-and-horror, succubi are actually buying scrolls in disguise, without blood shed or breaking and entering.

[Kelb_Panthera]

They could alternatively be using scrolls. Also explains why the demons cannot be low profile: they need to steal the scrolls, or kidnap an artificer/scroll scriber (if they exist).

That thought is a big part of why I said, "... a spellcaster could be necessary."

Once the party has discovered that there's a high percentage of teleporting enemies, why wouldn't they look into ways of preventing teleportation?

Crawling tattoos of psionic dimensional anchor aren't that expensive, and at high level even cross-class ranks in umd should get the modifier high enough for wands and low-mid level scrolls.

Also, when I said "stop an abyssal invasion," what I meant was "prevent an abyssal invasion." Linguistic fail on my part. :smalltongue:

[ThiagoMartell]

That thought is a big part of why I said, "... a spellcaster could be necessary."

Once the party has discovered that there's a high percentage of teleporting enemies, why wouldn't they look into ways of preventing teleportation?

Crawling tattoos of psionic dimensional anchor aren't that expensive, and at high level even cross-class ranks in umd should get the modifier high enough for wands and low-mid level scrolls.

Also, when I said "stop an abyssal invasion," what I meant was "prevent an abyssal invasion." Linguistic fail on my part. :smalltongue:

Also, I'm pretty sure there are martial prcs that grant dimension anchor and similar abilities

[jseah]

Yes, I suppose that in this very specific example, a caster could be necessary. At the same time, the DM made it necessary by giving a sub-set of demons caster levels.
<...>
Edit: how does not playing a caster limit strategic options, beyond not having spells available? :smallconfused:
It is a specific example meant to indicate that such campaigns exist. The fact that I wrote that summary up in ~15 mins should indicate that making such a campaign is not difficult. In fact, I find drawing this sort of plot up far easier than writing a macguffin type plot. (since macguffin tend to need alot of planning to get right)

Also, the demons need not be casters. They could run off scrolls. Hell, it's not the "caster" part that is the problem. All they need casting for in the scenario is to do Planar Binding, any alternate method of getting that also works.

The problem is the demons.

Not playing a caster means you have recruit a caster NPC, and then it will turn into a "fight X demons; repeat Y times". After all, NPC actions to get the group to the next demon summoner isn't going to be a PC action by definition.
Pray tell, as a non-T1/specialized T2 caster, how are you going to find a demon who has a spell-like ability: teleport (half of the higher CR ones have that), and kill it before it summons more? It could be anywhere on the continent.

Remember that you are trying to stop an invasion here. If it takes you three days to find and kill a demon, during which time it summons more than 2, the number of demons keeps growing anyway. And goodness help you if there are more than one demon (which it clearly started out with...)

That whole idea came out of your "demon army" scenario and me trying to think about how demons could logically stage an invasion of the Prime Material.
Then you add in how the rest of the world/planes relate to that and the scenario more or less writes itself.



The reason why I prefer to run such campaigns is that the mechanism of that invasion is firmly within the players' ability to affect. The players can plan, can react; there are relevant situations to respond to with relevant tools and decisions to make.
In other words, they are playing the invasion; not "find a macguffin" with a background scene.
Brian Sanderson's First Law of Magic and all that.


If you want to, you can introduce hombrew to try and raise the level of martial powers to caster level or simply multiclass into a casting class. That's a perfectly valid option, but if you don't want to do either of those things, then the DM should respect that choice, and make sure there are enemies there that you can meaningfully affect.
You answer it yourself:

If one of the other players is playing a high-op T1 in a mid-op game with a party of martial types and trivializing encounters, he's the one that's doing something wrong, by invalidating his friends choices in playstyle. At this point it's an out of game issue and should be handled as such.
To turn it around,
Let's say we have a DM who is running a game like the demon invasion example. Asking to play a mundane warrior means you accept that you are going to be mostly useless until the wizard gets you in front of a demon to smash.
If you're fine with that, then you can live with the problem of LW, QM... what's the matter again? =D

Like you say, the DM has no obligation to make you useful if you refuse the proposed homebrew (which makes your warrior distinctly non-mundane) that gives you options.
Because in such a game, mundane will not cut it. And there is no way to make mundanes contribute significantly without neutering the challenge. So pick up the darn powers and get cracking stopping those demons.

EDIT:

Once the party has discovered that there's a high percentage of teleporting enemies, why wouldn't they look into ways of preventing teleportation?
Actually, I am assuming those are in play. The demons are downright impossible to catch without them since they will just teleport right out of a battle.

The problem is finding demons in the random countryside/wilderness, and if they realize you are coming, they're very suddenly not there anymore.

[ThiagoMartell]

Because in such a game, mundane will not cut it. And there is no way to make mundanes contribute significantly without neutering the challenge. So pick up the darn powers and get cracking stopping those demons.

I think you're completely missing the point of Kelb's argument.
He is not saying there are no balance problems in 3.5, he is not saying mundane characters are on par with characters. He is saying you can still play the game without tha being an issue. You providing examples where it is an issue does not hurt his point in the slightest.

[jseah]

I think you're completely missing the point of Kelb's argument.
He is not saying there are no balance problems in 3.5, he is not saying mundane characters are on par with characters. He is saying you can still play the game without tha being an issue. You providing examples where it is an issue does not hurt his point in the slightest.
Ah. I was getting Off Topic here. Happens you know. XD

My point was that by buffing warriors to be similar in power scaling to quadratic mages allows the game to support new styles (without making warriors irrelevant) while not invalidating the old ones.
After all, low level mages fit in just fine, they don't play a completely different game. All of the old warrior-style campaigns at level 15 could happen at level 5 instead. (or you could have more levels, 60 instead of 20) *shrug* Just a matter of numbers.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It is a specific example meant to indicate that such campaigns exist. The fact that I wrote that summary up in ~15 mins should indicate that making such a campaign is not difficult. In fact, I find drawing this sort of plot up far easier than writing a macguffin type plot. (since macguffin tend to need alot of planning to get right)

Also, the demons need not be casters. They could run off scrolls. Hell, it's not the "caster" part that is the problem. All they need casting for in the scenario is to do Planar Binding, any alternate method of getting that also works.

The problem is the demons.

Not playing a caster means you have recruit a caster NPC, and then it will turn into a "fight X demons; repeat Y times". After all, NPC actions to get the group to the next demon summoner isn't going to be a PC action by definition.
Pray tell, as a non-T1/specialized T2 caster, how are you going to find a demon who has a spell-like ability: teleport (half of the higher CR ones have that), and kill it before it summons more? It could be anywhere on the continent.

Remember that you are trying to stop an invasion here. If it takes you three days to find and kill a demon, during which time it summons more than 2, the number of demons keeps growing anyway. And goodness help you if there are more than one demon (which it clearly started out with...)

That whole idea came out of your "demon army" scenario and me trying to think about how demons could logically stage an invasion of the Prime Material.
Then you add in how the rest of the world/planes relate to that and the scenario more or less writes itself.



The reason why I prefer to run such campaigns is that the mechanism of that invasion is firmly within the players' ability to affect. The players can plan, can react; there are relevant situations to respond to with relevant tools and decisions to make.
In other words, they are playing the invasion; not "find a macguffin" with a background scene.
Brian Sanderson's First Law of Magic and all that.


You answer it yourself:

To turn it around,
Let's say we have a DM who is running a game like the demon invasion example. Asking to play a mundane warrior means you accept that you are going to be mostly useless until the wizard gets you in front of a demon to smash.
If you're fine with that, then you can live with the problem of LW, QM... what's the matter again? =D

Like you say, the DM has no obligation to make you useful if you refuse the proposed homebrew (which makes your warrior distinctly non-mundane) that gives you options.
Because in such a game, mundane will not cut it. And there is no way to make mundanes contribute significantly without neutering the challenge. So pick up the darn powers and get cracking stopping those demons.

EDIT:

Actually, I am assuming those are in play. The demons are downright impossible to catch without them since they will just teleport right out of a battle.

The problem is finding demons in the random countryside/wilderness, and if they realize you are coming, they're very suddenly not there anymore.

You're extending the meaning of mcguffin here a bit, or I may be misusing the term.

In this case an item that's simply a normal magic item that would otherwise be prohibitively expensive and is set at the end of a plot-arc or is just dropped in the party's lap, is more than sufficient. Finding the demons and preventing their escape is something for the players to figure out.

They could buy items, hire npc's, stumble around in the woods hoping dumb luck gets them where they need to go, or any of a number of other things.

My job as a DM is to put a challenge they can reasonably overcome in front of the party, and then let them overcome it.

If you're asking how I would handle it as a player, assuming I'd found out through gather info or some divination or other about the demons buying up scrolls, I'd try to set a trap. After deducing, or better yet arranging, where the next shop likely to sell a scroll of planar binding to the demons is, I make sure the scroll is traceable. A simple locate object, from an item, will allow me to trace that specific scroll of planar binding, (which I will have had sabotaged or falsified if I thought I could get away with it) once I'm in the right general area, which I could have learned through simple gather info checks. Sneaking in is what stealth skills and rings of invisibility are for, and I keep him from getting away with the wand of dimensional anchor that the party chipped in on.

It'd be nearly impossible to find and stop these fiendish bastards without magic, but you don't need a spell-caster for magic, just cash. Before you bring it up, if the DM isn't making these items available, or isn't dropping enough money for us to aquire them, that goes back to the DM being unsporting again.

Don't give me the win, that's no fun, but don't make winning impossible either, that's almost worse.

To be frank though, I think your demons are a bit more organized than they should be. I would imagine that demons, being creatures of pure chaos and evil, would be much, much more likely to be stealling the scrolls they need. I also think they'd be so prone to in-fighting that keeping up with them shouldn't be too hard.

We all know that if a DM puts a challenge in front of a party that they can only solve one way, that they'll fail if they don't have access to that one thing. If that one thing is spells cast directly by a caster, when the party doesn't have any, I think the DM isn't being creative enough.

[ThiagoMartell]

Ah. I was getting Off Topic here. Happens you know. XD

My point was that by buffing warriors to be similar in power scaling to quadratic mages allows the game to support new styles (without making warriors irrelevant) while not invalidating the old ones.
After all, low level mages fit in just fine, they don't play a completely different game. All of the old warrior-style campaigns at level 15 could happen at level 5 instead. (or you could have more levels, 60 instead of 20) *shrug* Just a matter of numbers.

Yeah, I guess you could do that, but I don't think it's relevant to the topic at hand.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think you're completely missing the point of Kelb's argument.
He is not saying there are no balance problems in 3.5, he is not saying mundane characters are on par with characters. He is saying you can still play the game without tha being an issue. You providing examples where it is an issue does not hurt his point in the slightest.

This is very much the truth. I would still, however, appreciate a response to my plan for dealing with your example as a non-caster, from my previous post.

[jseah]

To be frank though, I think your demons are a bit more organized than they should be. I would imagine that demons, being creatures of pure chaos and evil, would be much, much more likely to be stealling the scrolls they need. I also think they'd be so prone to in-fighting that keeping up with them shouldn't be too hard.
Yeah, demons'll steal scrolls. Their allies, if any, will be a bit more subtle; although the existence of demon supporters is iffy.
And magic items are about as abundant as you'd expect them without going all magic mart on 9th level spell scrolls. (aka, NPC casters exist of a certain level, mostly lower than the PCs; scrolls they could reasonably craft would exist at the rarity proportional to the number of NPC casters)

Setting traps and baits works if the scale is kept local. In a small country, there isn't likely to be more than a few scrolls of greater planar binding (which would make a very tempting bait), you could pull it off and trap a significant number of the demons in the area.

You won't get all of them simply because some will be too busy, got blocked by competition in the rush for another scroll, or too random to care...
And the plan doesn't scale well. If you're dealing with a multi-country problem (and with demons having teleport SLAs, it very quickly becomes a problem continent-wide; all it takes is one of them to steal a scry scroll), it quickly becomes infeasible.

The demon problem, by nature of big demons being able to teleport for free, is a problem for the entire setting. You need a plan that can deal with something on that scale.
You can set up other adventuring groups with needed demon-hunting supplies (dim. lock tattoos were mentioned, not everyone has them),
you can meddle in the politics of multiple countries to stave off the total war failure ending,
you can make sure the right people know the threat and the wrong people do not,
you need to worry about the demons deciding to off you or targeting your allies,
you need to talk to the Outer Planes to get what help they can give (occasional angel support, useful magic items, overall intelligence - "my priest in country XYZ told me that peasants are starting to demon hunt!")
and also convince them you have it under control to prevent an angel army from waging open war with the demons.

And you need to do that under IC time pressure, against active enemies and a backdrop of people doing their own thing.

The demons don't have to be very smart or organized to make it nearly impossible without T1 casters and their high level spells.
All they need to do is, "yay, I am in juicy human land! Uhoh, cannot eat their souls... too many paladins. I have plan! Get friends to make army -> eat souls!"

Obviously, lower rank demons will chafe under the control of their higher ups and they will frequently be disorganized and infighting will occur. How do you think the good guys even managed to find out this was happening?
An organized invasion along the same lines by devils instead is basically impossible to trace without COP cheesing. The countryside is... pretty damn big. You could lose a small sea in the wilderness at the usual levels of D&D population.


It'd be nearly impossible to find and stop these fiendish bastards without magic, but you don't need a spell-caster for magic, just cash. Before you bring it up, if the DM isn't making these items available, or isn't dropping enough money for us to aquire them, that goes back to the DM being unsporting again.
More like, no magic = lose. This is impossible without frequent access to teleport at the least.

And yes, you can use items. I would argue that the situation demands too much flexibility which items and scrolls cannot give.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A couple other issues came to mind while I was awaiting your response. Where are the abyssal lords in all this? If demons that are this organized are unnafiliated my suspension of disbelief is approaching the breaking point. And where the crap did you find demons with friends? Last I heard the abyss was pretty dog-eat-dog. Everything I've ever read has demons trying to keep all the good stuff to themselves, including material plane access.

If they belong to one abyssal lord, why aren't agents of one of the others trying to stop this? Where are the Baatezu?

On-point: why is this an instantly global problem? It can get to that point sure, but why are we starting at that point when you already believe that the party doesn't have the resources to meaningfully affect it, since they don't have a caster? What do we need beyond the wand of dimension lock to keep these boogers from spreading?

Edit: Boots of teleportation. If teleportation is strictly necessary, the party can buy them or the DM can drop a couple pairs.

Some divination can be handled by an NPC that doesn't even have to leave her home. Gather info and the track feat should be able to allow us to find a local infestation.

If the problem is bigger than just this locale, we've already failed to thwart the invasion and we're trying to stop it from getting worse, now. That's not the goal I posited when I suggested this scenario.

If we've already reached the point where the party can't reverse the situation alone, is there any reason that this can't turn into a war-campaign? Yes, the material plane will be irrevocably changed by a war of outsiders, but that sounds pretty exciting to me, especially since I'm playing a warrior. My character is, naturally, horrified by these events.

Even in the scenario you've put forth, I really don't see why an in-party caster is a strict necessity. The all martial party has failed to stop the invasion from commencing, apparently before they even knew it was happening, and now the campaign needs to continue in its course. That sounds more like game-on than game-over.

[Eldest]

Dang. Now I kinda want to play a campaign based around this.

[jseah]

A couple other issues came to mind while I was awaiting your response.
Firstly, demons have a power structure. The first demon to get in will have his superiors knocking on him to summon them in and his subordinates trying to make themselves useful.
This is of course assuming they want to come to the Prime Material at all. (which is an assumption that the entire campaign idea rests on, so we can take that as a given)

The first demon entered the Prime in some fashion; in the scenario I wrote, that was escaping a Planar binding. I am sure they are smart enough to (try to) replicate the same methods.

Obviously, most demons summoned to the Prime won't have the ability to summon more and can't get access. This one was lucky.


On-point: why is this an instantly global problem?
It starts as a global problem because one escaped demon won't make the same kind of waves that an infestation would. Some lonely mage in a cave somewhere cast a binding spell that went wrong and got eaten, or something to that effect. A demon escaping in a city will likely teleport out basically instantly.

As the demon summons more demons, they're still out in the middle of nowhere, probably preying on an occasional caravan or raiding a village and eating the occasional unwary adventurer.
Demons can teleport. Without some way of tracking them, and tracking just a few demons is very very hard, they are impossible to find and stay found.
Even one group of demons is likely to have breakaways that start their own groups. Each of those groups probably don't like each other (being demons and all), and since they can teleport, they'll scatter. It *very quickly* becomes a setting-wide problem.

It's only after you have a significant number of demons (100? 200?) that there exist enough dots to connect for anyone to realize something is going on. (without COP cheesing)
Even if demons are chaotic, they are not suicidal and won't attack major population centers. They want to, but have to gather an army of demons to do that.


Eldest:
Feel free to steal this.


What do we need beyond the wand of dimension lock to keep these boogers from spreading?
Dim. Lock wands don't help. It's teleport being used strategically by the demons that you need to match.
I am already assuming that if you manage to face them in combat, you have ways of shutting down their teleportation in combat.

EDIT:

If the problem is bigger than just this locale, we've already failed to thwart the invasion and we're trying to stop it from getting worse, now. That's not the goal I posited when I suggested this scenario.
But that is the goal *I* posited. The invasion hasn't actually begun proper, but man, it is getting crowded with demons in here.

The point was to demonstrate a campaign idea that would require characters that had global reach and ability to play at the level involving an entire campaign setting. You can scale it down to one demon but that changes the scope of the campaign; my point earlier, non-T1 types cannot contribute in a setting-wide problem. (without macguffins)

My feeling was that such a campaign scope would require a T1 character to handle, and hence why we should give martial types T1 abilities if such a campaign is desired.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bah, I hate when I do that. That was supposed to be a wand of dimensional anchor. Dimension lock isn't even a spell that can be put in wand form.

And you didn't address the teleport boots I edited in.

With few exceptions, demons are not subtle. I find it difficult to believe that a demon could remain in any locale for more than a day or two without being detected, barring succubi or the like. If the demons are aquiring the scrolls for themselves....... why the hell didn't I think of the fact that demons have no way to activate scrolls.

Scrolls require a caster level, a minimum score in an ability, and the spell to be on your class spell list. Umd isn't a skill most demons have unless I'm mistaken. This scenario isn't even possible without some sort of caster or UMD trained npc.

I feel stupid for taking almost a day and several irrelevant points before realizing this. :smallredface:

[Togo]

I'm not sure I really see the problem. what exactly is it that Tier 1 casters can do that Tier 3 can't achieve some other way?

They get earlier access to teleport effects, true. They get more divination effects, also true. You've carefully chosen a scenario that showcases these abilities. But why can't the other tiers contribute at all? Mobalising the world, chasing up clues as to the power base of the demons, working out the power structure and how to disable it. None of these require specific class abilities, and the Tier 1 caster isn't providing anything that the party couldn't get some other way.

I'm also struggling to imagine the scenario here. Demons are gathering at such a rate that the ability to teleport, say twice a day (more than most wizards memorise each day) is somehow crucial? Planar binding scrolls are cheap as chips and easily available, but teleport scrolls, which are lower level, aren't?

I'm playing in a 'demon invasion' game right now, one the epic level gestalt games that these boards seem to specialise in, and I'm not feeling any disadvantage in strategic reach. That's because my character has the ability to travel between planes, teleportation, invisibility, a huge network of spies and informants, important and influential contacts, and his own private fortress. Of course most of these aren't class abilities. The highest level spells he can cast is Ranger 1. But since when are high level characters limited to their character sheets?

Is the difference the idea that you want to save the world based on your class abilities, rather than your ability to manipulate the plot and the game enviroment? If that's the case I can certainly see your point, but it's an extremely specific requirement. You're talking about comparing character sheets, while Kelb is talking about comparing characters and roles within the game.

[Boci]

Scrolls require a caster level, a minimum score in an ability, and the spell to be on your class spell list. Umd isn't a skill most demons have unless I'm mistaken. This scenario isn't even possible without some sort of caster or UMD trained npc.

I feel stupid for taking almost a day and several irrelevant points before realizing this. :smallredface:

Balor (CR 20, HD 20), Marilith (Cr 17, 16 HD), Nalfeshnee (CR 14, 14 HD), Lilith (CR 12, 14 HD and no need for a UMD check), Molydeus (CR 19, 19 HD), Mature Nabassu have it (CR 15, 15 HD, but could lower, since they mature from a CR 5 juvenile version, at some point gaining the skill. Would be a houserule though), Sibriex (CR 15, 15 HD, not a demon but a creature type that predates them) and finally Yochlol (CR 8, HD 10, no ranks, but bard is their favoured class).

That is core + Fiendish Codex I. I might later go other other books for demons.

Edit: Added hitdie

[jseah]

Let's clarify the scenario a bit more:

The players are at 12th level, having just finished some save-the-city-from-evil-necromancer quest. They are getting to be famous and the area they adventured in to get to 12th level are already familiar with them and a number of other adventuring parties, political NPCs, lay people, etc. owe them favours, some of them owe the party big time.
The players already have some form of backing by low level NPCs and are definitely the premier heroes of the kingdom.
They have a few contacts outside the local area, but now that they are done with that necro, the players are about to go play with the Big Boys and change the world and all that...

The next hook takes the form of the players stumbling upon a demon cult and wiping the floor with them. Then the players hear of another adventuring group (who the players helped in the past) also boasting about busting another demon cult. And the city clerics have indicated that their god has been rather unwilling to talk about local affairs as of late (instead of asking for the latest romantic drama between Tom and Mary).

As additional demon sightings start to build over the course of about half a month, it becomes clear that there is a major demon problem in the area and then their contacts abroad tell of similar things.
Angels have been sighted fighting demons (and saving orphanages and that sort of thing), usually with rather unhealthy consequences for people nearby.

Right now, the demons are just rumours but if the trend of increasing demonic and angelic activity continues... well, let's just have the clerics foresee some "interesting times".


And you didn't address the teleport boots I edited in.

With few exceptions, demons are not subtle. I find it difficult to believe that a demon could remain in any locale for more than a day or two without being detected, barring succubi or the like. If the demons are aquiring the scrolls for themselves....... why the hell didn't I think of the fact that demons have no way to activate scrolls.
They could force some spellcaster to activate it for them, some of them have UMD. There are ways. Those questions are just a matter of implementation.

Why do you think demons can't be subtle? I don't actually recall anything about that, just that they are chaotic evil and have problems coordinating with each other and anyone else.

Teleport boots gives you a method of teleportation, fine. Scrying balls give you divination. There's probably a way to planeshift if you need it. It will be harder than having the variety of spells, but possible.
You can probably rely on UMD and a ton of items to play a pseudo-caster to win. I have no doubts CharOp can easily demolish this scenario.

At that point, your items have been chosen directly to fit the challenge and so it is obvious that you have a shot at completing it. If you have to acquire roughly a 20th level WBL at level 12 to even have a shot, trying to do that in-game will likely have you lose (remember that you don't start with perfect knowledge of the scenario, and so can't know what exact items to start with)

Why not just buff the warrior to T1 so he can do all that? Since you have to give it to him anyway.


I'm not sure I really see the problem. what exactly is it that Tier 1 casters can do that Tier 3 can't achieve some other way?
<...>
Is the difference the idea that you want to save the world based on your class abilities, rather than your ability to manipulate the plot and the game enviroment?
Or you could use your class abilities to manipulate the plot and game environment. And yes, a warrior backed by a network of NPCs providing access to strategic abilities is thus more than just a warrior.

I'm addressing the point that warriors being completely mundane restricts their abilities compared with a T1 caster; who can do all the networking things a warrior can do, +spells, and can use his spells to manage the network far more easily than a warrior can.
Also networks are inherently more vulnerable than a single high level character but that's not really important.

This scenario wasn't specifically chosen to showcase teleportation and divination abilities. Most setting-level challenges that engage player abilities will have these two play a part since they are the primary examples of strategic abilities.

[Togo]

Teleport boots gives you a method of teleportation, fine. Scrying balls give you divination. There's probably a way to planeshift if you need it. It will be harder than having the variety of spells, but possible.
You can probably rely on UMD and a ton of items to play a pseudo-caster to win. I have no doubts CharOp can easily demolish this scenario.

Why couldn't a low-op party of tier 3 characters or less demolish this scenario? I mean, either they have access to transportation, or they don't. If they do, they're in.

I'm looking for evidence that a lack of Tier 1 casters changes the nature of the challenge here, since that was the point you were making? That there are some scenarios you simply can't run without Tier 1 casters?


At that point, your items have been chosen directly to fit the challenge and so it is obvious that you have a shot at completing it. If you have to acquire roughly a 20th level WBL at level 12 to even have a shot, trying to do that in-game will likely have you lose (remember that you don't start with perfect knowledge of the scenario, and so can't know what exact items to start with)

It's teleportation. It's a fairly basic thing that someone in the party is likely to get. Just like flying. Where are you pulling this 20th WBL and perfect knowledge of the scenario from?


Or you could use your class abilities to manipulate the plot and game environment. And yes, a warrior backed by a network of NPCs providing access to strategic abilities is thus more than just a warrior.

Only in the sense that every character is more than just a <insert class here>. Insisting on using class abilities is a bit like casting open/close rather than trying the handle. You can do it that way, but why would you?


I'm addressing the point that warriors being completely mundane restricts their abilities compared with a T1 caster;

But warriors are not, and never have been, completely mundane. They don't have magical class abilities. That's the only restriction.


who can do all the networking things a warrior can do, +spells, and can use his spells to manage the network far more easily than a warrior can.

I really don't see how. The expensive bit is spending time with the individuals involved, and a great many Tier 3 and below characters are better than a wizard at that. Sure the wizard might have the skills to do the same, but I don't see that he has any advantage, and he might well be at a disadvantage compared to a rogue, simply because of the kinds of people he'd be dealing with.

[ThiagoMartell]

I thought jseah meant fullcasters, at which points we need gear to counter his points.
If he means t1 characters, well... then he is just flat wrong.
Between Binder, Duskblade, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Factotum, Warlock, Healer, Ardent, Psychic Warrior and Psychic Rogue we have all the abilities we need.
All you need is teleport? Multiclass into Jaunter. If you dip Fighter, you can get teleportation before a Wizard does.

[jseah]

Why couldn't a low-op party of tier 3 characters or less demolish this scenario? I mean, either they have access to transportation, or they don't. If they do, they're in.
Tell me then, given the starting scenario in my previous post, which is all that the players will find out IC without effort, how a party of T3s with gear appropriate to 9th level PCs fighting a necromancer + undeads and the rest of their WBL in cash or favours would take on the challenge? (aka, PCs with a background and a previous scenario)
How will you even know what is happening? Talking to the clerics and peasants gives you some fragments, but can you imagine trying to piece the summary I gave together from fragmentary reports?
The scenario does not feed you information. It does not aid you in any way other than hindering the demons in the exact same way.

Say: Warblade, Beguiler, Factotum, *some divine caster*

The demons are scattered over a continent maybe the size of Europe, across two major landmasses. If they feel threatened by you, those that can teleport go poof unless prevented somehow (and this can happen even outside combat if they think they can't win against you and that you are coming for them)
Note that the demons aren't going to sit around passively until you find and kill them.
You have maybe one month before the setting turns into outright planar warfare if you don't control the information somehow. Note that you do not even start with knowledge of this "lose" condition, and have no innate way to track its progress beyond talking to people. (and obviously who you talk to matters)

You can assume NPCs under 8th level are common, 9th to 12th rare and 13+ requiring a substantial quest to gain the aid of. Magic item availability goes likewise, low level is available on the local magic mart, just under the player's levels commissionable at the appropriate organizations, above requiring a miniquest (but you keep loots) and appropriate gold to get.
You have favours and services you can call in, but they are not unlimited and NPCs can and do refuse service if they feel they are threatened.


EDIT:
Actually, my original point was that you should give warriors the range of abilities required to play at a strategic level, in the same way that T1s have by default.
The point of this scenario is to show that such abilities are required in some scenarios. And conversely, these scenarios require that characters have these strategic abilities.
If you are going to give your warriors items/NPCs and other advantages that nullify their lack of them, then it only demonstrates the point.

[Togo]

hmm..

The solutions starts when the party realise there is a problem to investigate. Start getting together as many reports as possible, by asking eyewitnesses travellers etc. Contact other cities by whatever means they usually use, be it magic, boats, pigeons etc. Contact individuals who may know people. Make sure that you're hearing about all the reports, and that those others are on the lookout for similar problems in their own areas. You aren't the only heroes on the continent, so get those others on the lookout in their own area. (offer them 100gp plus they can keep all the loot they find). See if you can find out what they're up to.

On the religious side, see what you can scare up from the local temples. Divnitations, prophecies, anything you can find. A demonic invasion of earth should register something on the divine care-o-meter, so that approach should bear some fruit in terms of information, even if it isn't obvious to the PCs when they start investigating.

Then it's a question of getting a lead fresh enough to follow up. You need a sighting of demons or signs of demonic activity near enough that you can plausibly get to them before they move on. Then you go, and this is the tricky bit, capture a demon. You want to kill the demons you see, but if you can arrange it, make sure one of them takes enough subdual early on in the fight to not die when you suddenly up the ante halfway through. The trick is to make sure you look like you're losing, and then suddenly do a lot of damage in one round. The warblade should be a good one there. Then you throw a magic circle to hedge it in, and let the beguiler do his thing on the interrogation front, and get the full story.

As an alternative, your inquiries bear fruit as to the sudden rush on planar binding scrolls, and you work what's going on there without having to capture a demon first. That would take more time. Then it's a question of hunting down and killing as many demons as possible, setting ambushes in various targets of opportunity. Meanwhile, after the first 'all the demons teleport away' encounter, they may write off hunting down every single last demon as a bad job unless you can reliably find them, and focus on shutting down their access to their supply of planar binding scrolls.

That's one way that I could expect to run it, as a DM. You've got a mix of combat, interrogation, high skills use and divinations, which showcases the abilities of the characters nicely, and it makes for a good story. How would you approach this?

Say: Cleric of Pelor, Sorceror, Spirit Shaman, and *some kind of front-line melee*

-------
Actually, my original point was that you should give warriors the range of abilities required to play at a strategic level, in the same way that T1s have by default.
The point of this scenario is to show that such abilities are required in some scenarios. And conversely, these scenarios require that characters have these strategic abilities.
If you are going to give your warriors items/NPCs and other advantages that nullify their lack of them, then it only demonstrates the point.

But this is seriously weird - you seem to think that T1 casters get teleport 'by default', while other characters only get it if the DM 'give' them the abilities. What happens if your T1 caster doesn't have teleport? Why is a character getting strategic abilities a 'default' option on the one hand, but DM intervention on the other? Again, you seem determined to give class abilities special status over items or plot and background related abilities, and you've given no justification for this distinction.

[jseah]

Firstly, out of those 4 you mentioned, only the cleric is T1. A more typical T1 team would be Cleric, Wizard, Druid, ... (what is a T1 skill monkey? Artificer?)

In any case, the team plugs their contacts for more details, seeing as demon activity appears to be on the rise. This part happens much like yours.

Once the problem situation (much more demons than normal) is established, the cleric communes and COPs (non cheesy way) to confirm their finding, as well as to ask about angelic activity ("uhoh, planar war is not good!").
Locate some demons and do essentially the same as you, except I would Nova out of the gate, throwing a dim. anchor to keep one demon around. Hear their side of the story, mind-read them if necessary. Note that they require planar binding to get more demons.
Your church, being clerics, should have lesser planar binding scrolls for sale (being a lesser magic item) and as a cleric, you'd be rather inattentive if you didn't notice the price was going up...

At that point the party gets to do a few things.
They can engage in planar diplomacy to stall the angelic incursion (convince your god and his allies that you have it under control), delaying the timer countdown to "interesting times". See if you can't talk to some angels, if you can convince them to limit their actions to uninhabited areas, all the better. Share information, cooperate on attacks and baits.

They can then visit all major sources of planar binding scrolls and attempt to stop anyone making them by recruiting those people or simply paying them not to craft. Recruit and supply adventuring teams in those areas with dimensional anchors to trap demons; you don't have to buy everything for them, see who can make needed stuff, hook them up with the adventuring teams who need it. Across the world if need be.
Pay them with the promise of information (aka. where demons are to get loot) and support, etc. It is quite similar to running a forum for an online game actually.

(wrt: angels and adventuring groups) Expect to need lots and lots of communication spells and teleports. Sending, scrying, whatever you can get your hands on. If you can supply them with it, all the better; work with them to establish chains of communications to conserve limited spells, every person you give a crystal ball/wand of scrying to can run his own network, reporting to you and each other as necessary. (schedule times to scry on each other and just leave a report on the table to read)

If you can't supply them, then you need to make your spells count. The ability to cut communication times across the continent from days to minutes is crucial to the entire thing so work out what needs sending and a priority queue.

Suddenly the demons' opposition is coordinated across the entire continent. They teleport out of one battle and within a few hours to half a day (time for the group to report to the information broker and for that to report to others), other groups are on the watch for a new demon group appearing.

You should also invest in spending some detection spells (magic circle against evil and Zone of Truth is wonderful) to check your network isn't compromised. Names and identities should travel upwards, not down. Frontline demon-hunters should try to avoid knowing too much in case they get captured.

You are the crack level 12 team, better than nearly everyone. Don't waste your time hunting minor groups, especially if they do not have ability to summon more and definitely not if they cannot teleport. You have teleport, not many other adventuring teams do. Use your network to identify the hardest targets and kill those. Come to the aid of those you can save but don't take too many risks.

I would say that you shouldn't use too many items beyond the minimum for you to operate. Every bit of cash or items you can spare can be traded to buy promises or oil the network with more spells or used to aid the weakest groups who need it most (but don't give them permanent expensive stuff in case they die and "give" it to the demons); but of course, you should reserve some for yourself to stay on top of the demons, it would not do to have your group lose a battle.

Baiting demons with a stash of planar binding scrolls (scribe them yourself if you need to), and then attempting to trace who wants to buy or steal them. COP (how many, who, where), Find the Path and other divination spells become incredibly useful as you can use them together to narrow down the search without even going anywhere. You put the scrolls on sale, advertise that you have a number of them, wait a bit and start tracing.
Mark up the price and security with your spells and wards so that you filter out the lower rank demons and attract only the highest ranking demons to yourself, the ones the other adventurers can't deal with.

--- This isn't likely to work, but could be worth a shot if you have a day or two worth of spells free. If you can get the name, you can summon that demon into your circle and kill it.

You also seed misinformation in the governments. Tell them that you are recruiting adventurers to improve coordination... whatever it takes to get them on your side and not worrying about demons. If you can make the demons believe it, all the better.
Make sure the adventurers' story matches yours. You have to be on the ball with this one, be sure to make full use of your multiple teleport trips across the continent each day to talk to representatives. Avoiding panic in the general population gives you more time on the countdown to "interesting times".

Since you are a cleric, try to convince your church to take the demon-loot from local adventurers and repurpose them. Destroy them if it is obviously demonic; if you have an artificer, you can buy it off the church -> absorb -> craft -> pay the church back.

With luck, perseverance and a heck of alot of work, you'll eventually be able to tell the governments just what the hell was going on and that it is over, no need to panic.
-------------------------------------

In any case, I can see your plan working for a small country. So ok, you win. =D
Although I note that the scale of the problem yours deals with is smaller than the T1 version. Pigeons are kinda slow when you are chasing demons around a continent and you are on a countdown clock measured in weeks.

Would be one hell of a scenario to play. But I'm more likely to be GM for that kind of thing. T_T

EDIT: I just realized...
You know how every time when you are low to mid level adventurers, you have a tendency to attract shady guys sitting the corner of your favourite tavern, and they come with promises of loot and adventure for your party?
Well, in this scenario, *you* get to be the shady guy in the corner! =)

-------------------------------------

You more or less do get teleport by default if you have a wizard or arcane caster with it on his list. I don't know when I've last seen an arcane character reaching that level and *not* getting teleport, it's like THE default option for 5th level spells. Unless you banned conjuration, but you have to be crazy to ban it.
(unless its your only spell of the level or your ally has it. Being 12th level, even sorcs can afford to get teleport. )
Scrolling down the sorc/wiz 5th level list, COP is the next choice depending on how your DM treats it, but information is worth less unless your DM really likes mysteries. Strategic mobility ranks so far above everything else its not funny.

Also, you can give warriors a boots of teleport, a few crystal balls, a pile of scrolls to UMD, and they'll be able to execute my plan; the difference is that the DM is essentially dumping the solution on the players instead of the players having to apply their abilites and resources to the problem.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Firstly, out of those 4 you mentioned, only the cleric is T1. A more typical T1 team would be Cleric, Wizard, Druid, ... (what is a T1 skill monkey? Artificer?)

In any case, the team plugs their contacts for more details, seeing as demon activity appears to be on the rise. This part happens much like yours.

Once the problem situation (much more demons than normal) is established, the cleric communes and COPs (non cheesy way) to confirm their finding, as well as to ask about angelic activity ("uhoh, planar war is not good!").
Locate some demons and do essentially the same as you, except I would Nova out of the gate, throwing a dim. anchor to keep one demon around. Hear their side of the story, mind-read them if necessary. Note that they require planar binding to get more demons.
Your church, being clerics, should have lesser planar binding scrolls for sale (being a lesser magic item) and as a cleric, you'd be rather inattentive if you didn't notice the price was going up...

At that point the party gets to do a few things.
They can engage in planar diplomacy to stall the angelic incursion (convince your god and his allies that you have it under control), delaying the timer countdown to "interesting times". See if you can't talk to some angels, if you can convince them to limit their actions to uninhabited areas, all the better. Share information, cooperate on attacks and baits.

They can then visit all major sources of planar binding scrolls and attempt to stop anyone making them by recruiting those people or simply paying them not to craft. Recruit and supply adventuring teams in those areas with dimensional anchors to trap demons; you don't have to buy everything for them, see who can make needed stuff, hook them up with the adventuring teams who need it. Across the world if need be.
Pay them with the promise of information (aka. where demons are to get loot) and support, etc. It is quite similar to running a forum for an online game actually.

(wrt: angels and adventuring groups) Expect to need lots and lots of communication spells and teleports. Sending, scrying, whatever you can get your hands on. If you can supply them with it, all the better; work with them to establish chains of communications to conserve limited spells, every person you give a crystal ball/wand of scrying to can run his own network, reporting to you and each other as necessary. (schedule times to scry on each other and just leave a report on the table to read)

If you can't supply them, then you need to make your spells count. The ability to cut communication times across the continent from days to minutes is crucial to the entire thing so work out what needs sending and a priority queue.

Suddenly the demons' opposition is coordinated across the entire continent. They teleport out of one battle and within a few hours to half a day (time for the group to report to the information broker and for that to report to others), other groups are on the watch for a new demon group appearing.

You should also invest in spending some detection spells (magic circle against evil and Zone of Truth is wonderful) to check your network isn't compromised. Names and identities should travel upwards, not down. Frontline demon-hunters should try to avoid knowing too much in case they get captured.

You are the crack level 12 team, better than nearly everyone. Don't waste your time hunting minor groups, especially if they do not have ability to summon more and definitely not if they cannot teleport. You have teleport, not many other adventuring teams do. Use your network to identify the hardest targets and kill those. Come to the aid of those you can save but don't take too many risks.

I would say that you shouldn't use too many items beyond the minimum for you to operate. Every bit of cash or items you can spare can be traded to buy promises or oil the network with more spells or used to aid the weakest groups who need it most (but don't give them permanent expensive stuff in case they die and "give" it to the demons); but of course, you should reserve some for yourself to stay on top of the demons, it would not do to have your group lose a battle.

Baiting demons with a stash of planar binding scrolls (scribe them yourself if you need to), and then attempting to trace who wants to buy or steal them. COP (how many, who, where), Find the Path and other divination spells become incredibly useful as you can use them together to narrow down the search without even going anywhere. You put the scrolls on sale, advertise that you have a number of them, wait a bit and start tracing.
Mark up the price and security with your spells and wards so that you filter out the lower rank demons and attract only the highest ranking demons to yourself, the ones the other adventurers can't deal with.

--- This isn't likely to work, but could be worth a shot if you have a day or two worth of spells free. If you can get the name, you can summon that demon into your circle and kill it.

You also seed misinformation in the governments. Tell them that you are recruiting adventurers to improve coordination... whatever it takes to get them on your side and not worrying about demons. If you can make the demons believe it, all the better.
Make sure the adventurers' story matches yours. You have to be on the ball with this one, be sure to make full use of your multiple teleport trips across the continent each day to talk to representatives. Avoiding panic in the general population gives you more time on the countdown to "interesting times".

Since you are a cleric, try to convince your church to take the demon-loot from local adventurers and repurpose them. Destroy them if it is obviously demonic; if you have an artificer, you can buy it off the church -> absorb -> craft -> pay the church back.

With luck, perseverance and a heck of alot of work, you'll eventually be able to tell the governments just what the hell was going on and that it is over, no need to panic.
-------------------------------------

In any case, I can see your plan working for a small country. So ok, you win. =D
Although I note that the scale of the problem yours deals with is smaller than the T1 version. Pigeons are kinda slow when you are chasing demons around a continent and you are on a countdown clock measured in weeks.

Would be one hell of a scenario to play. But I'm more likely to be GM for that kind of thing. T_T

EDIT: I just realized...
You know how every time when you are low to mid level adventurers, you have a tendency to attract shady guys sitting the corner of your favourite tavern, and they come with promises of loot and adventure for your party?
Well, in this scenario, *you* get to be the shady guy in the corner! =)

-------------------------------------

You more or less do get teleport by default if you have a wizard or arcane caster with it on his list. I don't know when I've last seen an arcane character reaching that level and *not* getting teleport, it's like THE default option for 5th level spells. Unless you banned conjuration, but you have to be crazy to ban it.
(unless its your only spell of the level or your ally has it. Being 12th level, even sorcs can afford to get teleport. )
Scrolling down the sorc/wiz 5th level list, COP is the next choice depending on how your DM treats it, but information is worth less unless your DM really likes mysteries. Strategic mobility ranks so far above everything else its not funny.

Also, you can give warriors a boots of teleport, a few crystal balls, a pile of scrolls to UMD, and they'll be able to execute my plan; the difference is that the DM is essentially dumping the solution on the players instead of the players having to apply their abilites and resources to the problem.

At this point we've both agreed that the party of non-casters can indeed deal with this scenario.

That was my entire point.

You don't have to be a caster to be able to enjoy high-level play.

Certain scenarios will require that you get more than a few expendable magic items, but they're still viable, none the less.

In your example scenario, a T1 or even a T3 caster could make things easier, but they're not strictly required. That's all I was trying to prove.

[jseah]

Certain scenarios will require that you get more than a few expendable magic items, but they're still viable, none the less.

In your example scenario, a T1 or even a T3 caster could make things easier, but they're not strictly required. That's all I was trying to prove.
I did mention that the scale was smaller. If the T3 party tried to handle the continent-wide version I treated with the T1 party (aka. hard mode), it would be more difficult. At least without the GM giving you copious amounts of teleport and other support magic.
Non-casters would need even *more* support.

They might be viable with "more than a few" magic items, but at a certain difficulty level, one might be tempted to describe it as "technically possible". =P

[Togo]

I did mention that the scale was smaller. If the T3 party tried to handle the continent-wide version I treated with the T1 party (aka. hard mode), it would be more difficult. At least without the GM giving you copious amounts of teleport and other support magic.
Non-casters would need even *more* support.

They might be viable with "more than a few" magic items, but at a certain difficulty level, one might be tempted to describe it as "technically possible". =P

Still, the campaign idea is valid either way. There is no division between a group that can handle strategic play, and one that can't, which was the point I was arguing.

I'd take issue with the precise differences you describe. You're crafting far too many items for the timescales you describe, you're assuming not just that you can cast sending and scrying but that other people are doing the same to you, which means all the Tier 3 group need is the same background world and a wand for sale, and they can do exactly the same thing. But the details were never the issue.

And it does sound like an interesting set up for a campaign. Of course, one has to wonder what kind of society openly sells items for summoning and making pacts with outsiders. I'd be tempted to flesh out a church that regularly performs rituals to contact the higher planes, and then have the demons corrupt the scrolls used for the rituals to summon demons instead.

[sonofzeal]

Still, the campaign idea is valid either way. There is no division between a group that can handle strategic play, and one that can't, which was the point I was arguing.
Well, from a certain perspective that's definitely true. After all, there's pretty literally nothing a T1 party could do that a T4 party couldn't, as long as they had someone with UMD and sufficient fungible resources.

But that's the problem with comparisons like this. A party with access to powerful divinations is in a whole new realm of information-gathering abilities; you can assume that the T4s can have access, but that manifestly won't always be the case, whereas any cleric ever can cast divinations with a 24 hour notice or less, for free or at least for a mere fraction of the price.

T4 can usually replicate anything T1 can accomplish, just for significantly higher costs in both time and money.

And really, that's the big difference: price and time. Your own example bears that out. How much is the T4 party laying out to accomplish their ends, and how much time does it take them, compared to the T1 party dealing with an identical scenario? At what point does the T4 party simply not work fast enough, or run out of the money? That's the cutoff between the two. Both can work strategically, but on vastly different scales.

[ThiagoMartell]

And really, that's the big difference: price and time. Your own example bears that out. How much is the T4 party laying out to accomplish their ends, and how much time does it take them, compared to the T1 party dealing with an identical scenario? At what point does the T4 party simply not work fast enough, or run out of the money? That's the cutoff between the two. Both can work strategically, but on vastly different scales.

I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To clarify, a party of non-casters can work at the same strategic scale of power as the casters, but at they'll do so on a larger scale of time.

Conversely, they can work in the same scale of time, but in doing so will be constrained to a lower scale of strategic power.

In the above example, if the time-scale is too small, then the non-caster party will find it difficult or impossible to prevent an all-out inter-planar war. This doesn't necessarily mean the campaign ends with a big GAME OVER screen. It just changes the nature of what's to be done. It turns into a war campaign, which, for a group of players that all chose martial types, may be more fun anyway.

If the time-scale is larger, however, there's no reason that the non-caster party can't successfully stop the demonic invasion from becoming an all-out war.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. In-party casters aren't a strict necessity to have an entertaining campaign.

[Togo]

And really, that's the big difference: price and time. Your own example bears that out. How much is the T4 party laying out to accomplish their ends, and how much time does it take them, compared to the T1 party dealing with an identical scenario?

In the example given, the T3 party is cheaper and quicker. The T1 party eventually achieves faster communications over a larger area, but takes more money and time to do so. The TI party supplies crystal balls and wands of sending to an entire continent, in order to secure faster communications. That's actually substantially more time spent crafting than was allowed for the scenario, and more money that was stated as available.

If you bring the T1 party within the limits given, then the extra area they can influence is an extra city or two, maybe three. It's a small margin.

If you bring the T3 party up to the money spent by the T1s, then you have to assume NPCs are doing most of the legwork, and the difference in range from class abilities gets smaller and smaller as the scale increases.

I'm not disputing that you can jiggle the parameters until the T1's have an advantage. All you need to do is specify a scenario in which access to a wide variety of utility spells gives you an advantage. Similarly, it's not hard to specify a scenario in which T1 casters are systemically disadvantaged - you just make sure there's a time limit and a fast pace, so they don't have the chance to refresh spells or change spells as the plot unfolds.

But I really don't see any useful difference in terms of the kinds of games you can run.

[jseah]

You mean cheaper and slower. A pigeon network is going to be slower than even the T1 cleric using his daily allotment of scrying/sending. Ships take days just to get next door and a significant chunk of total scenario time to get to the next country.

Also, emergency contacts can be done by supplying scrolls (which are 1 day craft time regardless of price). Wands and crystal balls are only if you can spare the time and/or money (and if the T1 party has an artificer, this becomes a whole lot more feasible, but artificers aren't guaranteed); trustworthy contacts to be information brokers aren't going to common but even one vastly expands your reach so take it if it happens. I don't actually envision more than a handful of them. Certainly not one in every city. Maybe not even one per country. (1 - 3 over the course of the whole scenario is rather more like it)

The extensive use of divination spells would let the T1 cleric alone do rather more than the T3 party. Teleport from the arcane caster brings it up a whole lot, I would argue a few countries more, rather than one or two cities.
Like your T3 party does, the T1 party does not need to babysit local adventurers; actual visits are only required to establish and maintain the network (and other stuff like politics), certainly not every day. Keeping a teleport in reserve for rescues might be prudent but there are probably better purposes for another teleport.

Also, the T1 cleric can directly engage the angels to slow down the timer, in fact you can do regular visits (a pair of planeshifts every other day from the cleric?) to the god(s) in question to keep your network in sync with theirs. While the exact amount of direct help you can get is very iffy, the advantages of having more time and sharing information cannot be discounted.


Additionally, at 12th level, a T1 party is less constrained by time limits than you'd think. Many conventional obstacles can be simply bypassed (or made very expensive in terms of bypass counters) and safely ignored, while a less flexible party has to face more problems. Unless facing another T1/T2, there are usually ways to 'cheat'.
A mid-high T1 party acts more like a scalpel than a bludgeon. A shapeshifting scalpel that adapts to whatever is under the knife.

[jseah]

If the time-scale is larger, however, there's no reason that the non-caster party can't successfully stop the demonic invasion from becoming an all-out war.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. In-party casters aren't a strict necessity to have an entertaining campaign.
I wasn't quite saying that you need T1 type abilities to have an entertaining campaign. I was saying that some styles of campaign are better supported by having those abilities.
- Even if a warrior party could take on the demon scenario, it would be rather more limited if the players are to stand a chance at all. Which may not actually make too much sense; the demons have absolutely no reason to not run every which way and positing that a certain level of magic items for gold is available to the players indicates that LPB scrolls are at least semi-common, which puts a lower bound on the believable rate of demon expansion.

I could always up the challenge level. At level 17-20, T1s are waging inter-planar warfare and plotting the downfall of minor gods (with the blessing of the bigger ones of course). Maybe even affect the devils vs demons war.
Let's see you match that one now. =D

Or the demon scenario could be a 12th level T1 caster (plainly they do exist since someone makes magic items) or some reason why support networks don't work or are heavily countered. (inter-House warfare in an extensive empire? Low level and non-magic supported networks get compromised or removed pretty quickly)

Even at the level 12 demon-incursion scenario, why should we not buff warriors to be on par with mages? It allows the DM to throw more kinks into the scenario or up the epicness. Hard mode like the one I assumed in my plan; or Impossible mode with a BBEG coordinating demons (if the BBEG is a T1 caster, I am not certain whether even the T1 party can win)

Or to put it another way, we give mages nice toys. So we should give warriors nice toys too.
More and better toys let us play bigger games.

[ThiagoMartell]

Or to put it another way, we give mages nice toys. So we should give warriors nice toys too.
More and better toys let us play bigger games.

Why? Some people don't even like playing bigger games. We have years of D&D history of not making warriors the same as mages, but with swords. They tried doing that with 4e (though it was mostly bringing the wizards down to normal (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BroughtDownToNormal)) and it didn't exactly work.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I never said you couldn't grant the warrior types more abilities to bring them up to a higher level of ability, I said that getting them up to T1 level requires houserules and homebrew. I personally like to keep both to an absolute minimum in my own games, but YMMV.

The scroll thing makes the above scenario require npc's on the enemy's side that are capable of activating them. That means it's not the demons themselves that are the problem, it's the organization that's calling them that has to be stopped.

Mopping up the demons that're already here will take a good long time for the reasons you've presented, but there're already outsiders roaming all over the material anyway. Completely elliminating them is an even grander scope than you've already posited and even T1's would have a tough time with it, no matter how well they're played.

As for warriors having an effect in the blood-war, that's what HoB was written for, war campaigns.

Properly constructed there's no reason that a party without a single caster can't have a dramatic affect on the outcome of a blood-war military campaign. Taking out generals and disrupting supply lines isn't exactly something that only a wizard can do.

I honestly don't believe that deicide is feasable at non-epic play.

[ThiagoMartell]

Play Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/). Subverting this trope was pretty much one of the main reasons it was created in the first place.

Or any of the dozen other games where this does not happen.

[Togo]

You mean cheaper and slower. A pigeon network is going to be slower than even the T1 cleric using his daily allotment of scrying/sending.

No, I stand by my original comment. You learn about the threat on day one. You send a pigeon. On day two the cleric has changed his spells to get sending and scrying, and cast them, and the pigeon arrives the same day. The time is taken in shaking people from their daily routine and in establishing the network. Your Tier1 only abilities would make little practical difference to that.

Now if you're trying to talk to people 1000s of miles away that's a different matter, which is why people were conceeding that Tier 1s could build a larger network.



Also, emergency contacts can be done by supplying scrolls (which are 1 day craft time regardless of price).

Only on a small scale. You need to give each contact at least two or three scrolls if they're going to be able to feed you information in a timely fashion. A continent has maybe 50 cities on it? So no, still too big, still not enough time. What you're relying on in the continent set up is that scry and read notes link, which is why Tier 1s can keep a bigger network going, but you still have to make contact initially, which is why it's slower to set up than the smaller and more flexible Tier3 approach.

Obviously you could just use the Tier 3 approach, and then chip in with spells where necessary. But ultimately a plan that relies on a limited number of spells per day is less useful than a massively parallel approach.



Teleport from the arcane caster brings it up a whole lot,

No, because as we've already discussed rather extensively, Tier 3 parties can teleport too.



Also, the T1 cleric can directly engage the angels to slow down the timer, in fact you can do regular visits (a pair of planeshifts every other day from the cleric?) to the god(s) in question to keep your network in sync with theirs. While the exact amount of direct help you can get is very iffy, the advantages of having more time and sharing information cannot be discounted.

Except that turning up and demanding a personal interview with a deity, and expecting some kind of benefit for doing so, is vastly campaign world dependent. Not to mention that plane shift leaves you 5d100 miles from your planned location, which is likely protected against planar travellers just dropping in, for reasons I hope would be obvious.

No, if the angels are likely to intervene directly in a demonic invasion, then they'll intervene. You don't need more than prayer or commune to get divine blessing on a project, and if you did need more, the angels are better placed to visit you at planned intervals than you are to visit them. The fact that the cleric can plane shift brings no advantage, and his fluff is no more advantageous than that of a Paladin or Templar.



Additionally, at 12th level, a T1 party is less constrained by time limits than you'd think. Many conventional obstacles can be simply bypassed (or made very expensive in terms of bypass counters) and safely ignored, while a less flexible party has to face more problems. Unless facing another T1/T2, there are usually ways to 'cheat'.
A mid-high T1 party acts more like a scalpel than a bludgeon. A shapeshifting scalpel that adapts to whatever is under the knife.

You're arguing from your conclusion here.

I think that the most impotant tools to solving problems are immersion in the gameworld and inventiveness of the players. Class abilities are a distant third, and while they can make a difference in strategic considerations, the difference in practice is pretty minor.


I could always up the challenge level. At level 17-20, T1s are waging inter-planar warfare and plotting the downfall of minor gods (with the blessing of the bigger ones of course). Maybe even affect the devils vs demons war.
Let's see you match that one now. =D

Why not? I'm playing in a game right now about stopping a demonic invasion, we're playing epic level, and we seem to be doing just fine.

Or you could just play GDQ Queen of the Demonweb Pits, one of the more famous classic adventures about waging inter-planar warfare and plotting the downfall of a minor god. Works perfectly well with any mix of characters.

[jseah]

No, because as we've already discussed rather extensively, Tier 3 parties can teleport too.
Certainly not as many times a day as a party with a wizard. They can buy whatever teleport item exists too (which are likely expensive and very limited per day or finite use).


Except that turning up and demanding a personal interview with a deity, and expecting some kind of benefit for doing so, is vastly campaign world dependent. Not to mention that plane shift leaves you 5d100 miles from your planned location, which is likely protected against planar travellers just dropping in, for reasons I hope would be obvious.

No, if the angels are likely to intervene directly in a demonic invasion, then they'll intervene. You don't need more than prayer or commune to get divine blessing on a project, and if you did need more, the angels are better placed to visit you at planned intervals than you are to visit them. The fact that the cleric can plane shift brings no advantage, and his fluff is no more advantageous than that of a Paladin or Templar.
The proposed scenario has the angels intervening be a *failure condition*. You are going there to plead your case that it doesn't require overt intervention. You don't have to talk to the god him/her/itself, a representative with the power to make decisions is good enough.

As established in the scenario, the angels do want the Prime Material to keep existing and not turn into angels vs demons Blood War II. If you can make your case that you have a chance of stopping it, it makes no sense for them not to listen.


I think that the most impotant tools to solving problems are immersion in the gameworld and inventiveness of the players. Class abilities are a distant third, and while they can make a difference in strategic considerations, the difference in practice is pretty minor.

Why not? I'm playing in a game right now about stopping a demonic invasion, we're playing epic level, and we seem to be doing just fine.

Or you could just play GDQ Queen of the Demonweb Pits, one of the more famous classic adventures about waging inter-planar warfare and plotting the downfall of a minor god. Works perfectly well with any mix of characters.
Perhaps our experiences are different. My friends (who are the usual players) do tend to make incredibly long range plans, often hinging on access to copious amounts of spells, because doing it the normal way would take too long, require NPC help (when they want to keep secrets) or just be plain impossible. As a DM, I don't generally even ask what they are doing; would prefer to remain objective.
We also love unintended solutions and taking shortcuts (even if we have to make the shortcut ourselves); trying to write a story on what we do is like trying to herd cats.
They do engage the gameworld and I can safely say they would not be able to do what they normally do without T1 spellcasting. At least at mid-levels and up.

FYI, StP Erudite with a non-combat focus is a pretty standard character; we also tend not to play clearcut good-side characters and characters will often run their own goals alongside the scenario.

I would not run something like this demon incursion with that group. Will probably end up with the whole lot of demons enslaved in various cities. Maybe angels as well. >.>


I never said you couldn't grant the warrior types more abilities to bring them up to a higher level of ability, I said that getting them up to T1 level requires houserules and homebrew. I personally like to keep both to an absolute minimum in my own games, but YMMV.

The scroll thing makes the above scenario require npc's on the enemy's side that are capable of activating them. That means it's not the demons themselves that are the problem, it's the organization that's calling them that has to be stopped.
Demons have UMD, with pretty high checks too. Someone already made that case.

I, too, like to have low amounts of homebrew. But if I can write a whole bunch of maneuvers which make initiators T1, which will be done before the game starts, then it is a bit like writing a mini-sourcebook.

[Tyndmyr]

Sticky Floor (RotD) Save or Immobilized, pass your save and you are still Entangled. The spell lasts for hours per level, too, so doesn't suffer from Grease's level 1 quandary. It is Conjuration, answering your first point about the school not having a second Save or suck.

*makes a mental note* Was not familiar with that spell...sounds like a good option, I'll grant.


I think Tyndmyr's right that you don't have more than a doubling (most of the time anyway) from one level to the next. I actually like the feat, myself, and not just for TO shenanigans.

So, a wizard going from level one to level two(ignoring bonus spells for the moment) goes from 1 1st level spell and 3 cantrips(approx power 2.5) to 2 1st level spells and 4 cantrips(approx power 4). Jumping to third would give you approximately power 6(where power = total level of spells).

This will be somewhat better with bonus spells, but all in all...it's only mildly greater than linear.

Now, let's look at bab...also pretty linear, save that you also give extra attacks. Additional attacks pretty obviously give you a greater than linear curve that looks very, very much like the wizard's curve.

So, what's the problem? How do we reconcile this with the wizard being better at higher levels? Well simply put, both curves being fairly similar doesn't mean identical...and it doesn't mean identical starting points. A spell is just better than an attack because it can be an attack...or it could be something else. Therefore, despite not being dramatically different, a simple change can eventually have pretty major outcomes.

TLDR: Wizards are, of course, better than fighters at high levels. But not for anything to do with linear/quadratic. It's the spells.

[dextercorvia]

I meant from one spell level to the next. That was the context of the discussion.

Within the PHB, Glitterdust is about twice as good as Color Spray (by 3rd level anyway). It isn't the case that you can find something more than twice as good at every level jump, though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Boci listed these demons.

Balor (CR 20, HD 20) can't be called with anything less than gate.

Marilith (Cr 17, 16 HD) Requires GPB, this is an 8th level spell and costs 3k per scroll, and is a relatively rare major magic item crafted by a 15 level caster.

Nalfeshnee (CR 14, 14 HD) GPB

Lilitu (CR 12, 14 HD and no need for a UMD check) GPB to summon but can use LPB as a spell from cleric casting. Is however a caster, which supports my point.

Molydeus (CR 19, 19 HD) Gate

Mature Nabassu have it (CR 15, 15 HD) GPB

Sibriex (CR 15, 15 HD) GPB

Yochlol (CR 8, HD 10) PB can't activate scrolls without being re-tooled.

Not one that can be called without a major magic item or caster levels.

The logistics of your scenario are much more difficult than you first thought.

Is it not possible that this would slow the bad guys down enough for a non-caster party to be able to keep up?

[Togo]

Certainly not as many times a day as a party with a wizard. They can buy whatever teleport item exists too (which are likely expensive and very limited per day or finite use).

They could, but I'm assuming that the Tier3s started with one already. You made a big song and dance about how any Tier1 caster would have learned teleport as one of his few 5th level spells, so we can extrapolate that teleport is imporant, and the Tier3 party would have at least one item before this scenario began, just as the Tier1 party would have taken the trouble to acquire the spell.

And no, they don't have to be expensive. A Belt of Wide earth (MiC) is 8000gp, and can be used by a beguiler or other T3 caster with little difficulty to provide 2 teleports a day. (add the rest of the set to get commune on top). Compare that to the crystal ball(s) you were planning to distribute around the contient, which cost 42,000. I think the cost is more than reasonable.


The proposed scenario has the angels intervening be a *failure condition*. You are going there to plead your case that it doesn't require overt intervention. You don't have to talk to the god him/her/itself, a representative with the power to make decisions is good enough.

Or you could just pray, the established method of talking to godsand their representatives laid down by the deities themselves. Plane shift still doesn't get you to the right place, and there's still no reason to suspect that showing up in person uninvited will be any more useful than going through channels



Perhaps our experiences are different. My friends (who are the usual players) do tend to make incredibly long range plans, often hinging on access to copious amounts of spells, because doing it the normal way would take too long, require NPC help (when they want to keep secrets) or just be plain impossible. As a DM, I don't generally even ask what they are doing; would prefer to remain objective.
We also love unintended solutions and taking shortcuts (even if we have to make the shortcut ourselves); trying to write a story on what we do is like trying to herd cats.
They do engage the gameworld and I can safely say they would not be able to do what they normally do without T1 spellcasting. At least at mid-levels and up.

Yes it does sound like our experiences are very different. My players also make incredibly long range plans, often well outside the planned scope of the campaign. They also make very detailed plans. As a DM I rule that anything that hasn't been told to me doesn't happen. They have to tell me what theyre doing, and then I rule on the outcome. This may be the outcome they planned, or it may not be. This means that they need to make tight plans that have contingencies, and make provision for difficulty or even failure.

Spellcasting is a bit of a two-edged sword in this respect. On the one hand spells are powerful, but on the other they tend to be highly specific, and short duration. Anything that works based on spellcasting is often something you have to keep on doing. So your network, based on your teleports scrying commune and so on, will largely fall apart as soon as the PCs involved start doing something else instead. A network based on background actions and interaction, such as I described, will mostly likely carry on long after the threat it was designed to deal with had been resolved, provided the PCs stay interested in maintaining it, and can think of a way of holding it together that makes sense for the NPCs involved.

So yes, I can see why the styles are different. You have very powerful characters who largely being left to decide on the outcomes of their own actions without intervention from the DM. I can see that leading to a very sandboxy style of play, where apart from the odd threat or mystery set out there to be resolved, players are largely coordinating their own actions and drving the game forward themselves with their own actions.

Being a Tier1 character would be a triple asset. You're playing a high power campaign, so Tier 1s aren't limited like they might expect to be in some games. You're adjudicating your own actions, so spells don't suffer the weaknesses of being so specific - they do exactly what you'd envision them doing, with no risk of unexpected outcomes. And finally, because you're describing your own plans, spells can only be an asset, because they increase the set of actions you can plausibly describe yourself as doing, which is the only real limit on what you can achieve.

I can imagine that being a fun, fluid, and highly creative and imaginative game.

I'm playing what sounds to be a game in a broadly similar style on these boards at the moment. In the first 200 posts my character set up his business manufacturing warships, got invovled in polticing with the newly installed king whom he'd been covertly supporting against a more powerful rival, put a cohort in charge of his network of spies and informants, dispatched one of his ships on a trade mission to the far north, started a trade delegation with a newly founded religious settlement on the border and lobbied to get them access to the metal-trading markets further south so that they wouldn't have to rely on trade with their neighbours whom he doesn't favour, is trying to get influence with a primative clan of evil dwarves that happen to share a border with someone who in turn borders an enemy country, for later use, starting trading adamantium to a PC who wanted to build a maze-fortress, built a giant greek-fire launcher, is experimenting with flying ships (it's not going well), started a demon-hunting training program under an experienced ally of his who is a professional revolutionary, made an annoymous present of half a ton of cold iron to a cleric PCs stronghold so they could start making some weapons that would actually do some good when the demons invaded, gained a personal audiance with Pelor to help understand the problem and opened up a trade route with the elemental plane of water.

I can see why people like this style of game, because it's fun and you get to use your imagination. I think, however, I'd have felt more of a sense of accomplishment if there had been any risk whatsoever of any of that not actually working out the way I wanted to.

Note this was all done with an epic level ranger/rogue. He can barely cast 1st level ranger spells, but he's managing just fine in creating long-term plans to defeat them demons. (and in the latest post I think we're pretty much there, at least in terms of shutting down the gateway network that was being built.) I really can't see how having Tier1 spellcasting would help. We have a cleric/psion in the party, and she's no more effective than my own character.

In the campaigns I run, plans are a risk. You commit to a particular course of action and only then find out whether your plan works, doesn't work, or even makes things worse. Unexpected consequences are the norm, and even a good plan might leave you in an unexpected situation.

In such an enviroment, there are lots of things players can do that don't involve character sheet abilities at all. Spells add a few more options, but it really makes very little difference on the strategic planning side.

Once you get down to tactics and individual action, then Tier1 casters become a lot more effective, but on the strategic side, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your Tier 1 characters are more effective than your Tier 3 characters because you reckon Tier 1 characters are more effective than Tier 3. In my games, everyone is about equally effective, because I believe that all characters can be equally effective. What else would it be based on?


I, too, like to have low amounts of homebrew. But if I can write a whole bunch of maneuvers which make initiators T1, which will be done before the game starts, then it is a bit like writing a mini-sourcebook.

Sure, I understand where you're coming from. Your Tier 1 characters have a list of useful features that allow them to describe different actions. You want everyone to have broadly equivalent buttons. The details don't matter, its' the range of allowed ideas that's important.

In my games, everyone can do a great deal, and the buttons are often sub-optimal choices, so people care less that some characters have more of them than others.

[jseah]

Kelb_Panthera:
Demons not having UMD... ok fine, pick any outsider group that does with low enough HD. Or they could threaten/bride/convert NPC casters. >.>

What do you mean by "Is however a caster, which supports my point"?
If you're saying that the DM shouldn't put casters as enemies... I don't think you understand how these kinds of scenarios are made.

You take a world, your campaign setting, figure out what is the "normal" situation. Then you do something to it, in this case "Escaped Demon", and what you think happens from there.
And it just plays out in your plans until it starts to affect the players and that is where the campaign starts.

The whole process is meant to generate a plausible bunch of background information for the players to find. If the enemy runs into casters, then players will face casters.
It's pretty player-blind, apart from the choice of initial condition. I suppose you could choose demons in this case since I'll grant that they'll have problems summoning more demons who can summon (although the easier LPB and PB will generate lots of mooks).
Although each such UMD-capable demon would cause problems for yet another city.


In such an enviroment, there are lots of things players can do that don't involve character sheet abilities at all. Spells add a few more options, but it really makes very little difference on the strategic planning side.
Obviously I would disagree. =D

I don't actually leave things to run in the background the way you describe. The player does not present his plans to me and says "I will do XYZ, does it work?" unless he's leaving it to the NPCs to do it for him.
Generally, anything that players do, I play out post by post. Travelling to nearby city via teleport? Have a "Cast Teleport to XYZ" formal action and do the actual talking there. Players have to anticipate what they will need, obtain information and log it all on their own.

It does take time (one particular day in one game took roughly three weeks OOC when said character was juggling two combats, an extended siege of a city and a bunch of talky stuff in the span of a single IC day) but I find that going into the details is where all the difference is made.
The demon scenario, I estimate to be roughly a year at 3-10 posts per day. Yes, that does mean roughly 3 and a half thousand posts per character, covering a period of about 1 to 2 months IC. Although I tend to run more sandboxy like you said.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not saying that casters shouldn't be on team bad guy, just that the example scenario doesn't work without them, and that only one of the demons that boci highlighted as being able to use scrolls was actually one that could be called with lesser planar binding and that it was the only one on his list that had to be re-tooled to actually use them.

The lillitu being a caster supports my point that casters are necessary to the scenario, but not strictly necessary to the party. Even they can't be called by lesser planar binding, at that.

It's either a logistical nightmare because of the costs involved in that many scrolls of GPB, or all of the demons called are much weaker and unable to call more themselves. A cabal of either mortal casters or lillitu is necessary for that scenario to work, and that makes them the key to stopping the invasion, not wiping out every demon summoned. The same would apply to virtually any type of outsider.

[jseah]

A cabal of either mortal casters or lillitu is necessary for that scenario to work, and that makes them the key to stopping the invasion, not wiping out every demon summoned. The same would apply to virtually any type of outsider.
Ah, I get what you're saying now.

Yes, you will not need to catch every single demon, only those that are capable of summoning. For sure, there will be a lot more demons who cannot summon. Additionally, mortal casters need not be leaders, they could be slaves, but it still makes them priority targets.

Yes, the scenario involves tracking down and eliminating a small set of summon-capable demons. Well, small compared to the number of non-summon-capable ones, there'll still be rather alot of them before the players even get wind of demon infestation.