Hidecarved Dragon Thought Experiment

[Randomguy]

Most of the draconic PrC's in draconomicon need you to be a true dragon, or a very powerful dragon. But I noticed that the Hivecarved Dragon has only the following prerequisites:
Race: Any dragon.
Alignment: Any lawful.
Natural Armor Bonus: +20.
Base Save Bonus: Will +12.
Feat: Iron Will.

Note how it doesn't specify true dragons.
Dragonwrought kobolds are of the Dragon type, so they qualify, and getting +12 will is just a matter of taking 1 level in 6 different classes that give you a good Will save. That just leaves the more difficult requirement, +20 natural armour bonus.

So, What's the lowest level you can get into the hidecarved dragon prestige class?

Preferably completing the entire class pre-epic.

This is what I have so far, aiming to get in by level 8: Mineral Warrior Dragonwrought DragonBorn Desert Kobold with 3 levels of binder and 5 miscelaneous levels of different classes with good Will Save.

Mineral Warrior + Kobold give me +4 natural armour.
I get 5 feats (2 from flaws), I need 1 for DragonWrought, I can get Iron Will from Otyugh Hole (but I've always found that a bit cheesy, If I can afford to spend one of my actual feats on this then I will) so I can spend 4 feats on Improved Natural Armour, which gives another +4 to natural armour.

3 levels of binder give me access to Dahlver-Nar, which adds 1/2 my con mod to my natural armour.
So with 18 con (desert kobold has no Con penalty) + 2 from dragonborn + 2 from levels + 4 from mineral warrior gives 26 con, which is +8 to con, which is another +4 to natural armour.

So that's +12 natural armour. Does anyone have any ideas for anything that can further boost con or Natural Armour? Remember: I can't use Half Minotaur, since that template can't be applied to dragon type, or Lolth Touched, since that changes my alignment to CE and I need to be Lawful for the PrC.

In the X stat Y bonus thread it mentions the Forsaker PrC, which I've never heard of before, that adds Con to Natural armour (which would get up to me the required +20). I just looked it up, and I wouldn't be able to make the required base Will Save if I went into the class (it also has feat prereqs, so I'd have less feats to spend on Improved Natural Armour). Is there any way to fix this?

And lastly: Would this by any good at all? I know that it couldn't possibly stack up to any sort of full caster, but would it even be useful compared to, say, a fighter? And what classes are good for the 5 undetermined levels that boost will save?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since we're cheesing out here anyway. A single level in cancer mage followed by contracting vile rigidity. Your nat armor will hit 20 in a few days.

[Draken]

There are many ways to get the natural armor, but the only way to get the will save is by multiclassing into good will classes, this sets the minimum level needed at 6.

[dantiesilva]

Bear warrior, Primeval. Most nature based classes let you gain the bonuses from the creature thus increasing your stats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're looking to take Hidecarved Dragon after only eight class levels, then don't forget about that +12 base Will save. That means six one-level dips in good will classes, or four one-level dips and two two-level dips.



An Amulet of Natural Armor, DMG, +5 Enhancement bonus. Permanent items can contribute to meeting prerequisites.

Dragonfire Adept 2 gives +2 natural armor and a good Will save.

Assuming you're buying off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that +1 LA for Mineral Warrior, you can actually have several more +1 LA templates and have them all bought off quite easily. You must gain three times your current level adjustment in class levels to buy it off, so start with an inherited +1 LA (Feral), buy it off at your 3rd character level, gain an acquired +1 LA template (Mineral Warrior), buy it off at your 6th character level, etc.

Depending on your DM, you could probably obtain an Inherent bonus to natural armor via Wish/Miracle.

[Randomguy]

If you're looking to take Hidecarved Dragon after only eight class levels, then don't forget about that +12 base Will save. That means six one-level dips in good will classes, or four one-level dips and two two-level dips.



An Amulet of Natural Armor, DMG, +5 Enhancement bonus. Permanent items can contribute to meeting prerequisites.

Dragonfire Adept 2 gives +2 natural armor and a good Will save.

Assuming you're buying off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that +1 LA for Mineral Warrior, you can actually have several more +1 LA templates and have them all bought off quite easily. You must gain three times your current level adjustment in class levels to buy it off, so start with an inherited +1 LA (Feral), buy it off at your 3rd character level, gain an acquired +1 LA template (Mineral Warrior), buy it off at your 6th character level, etc.

Depending on your DM, you could probably obtain an Inherent bonus to natural armor via Wish/Miracle.

6 NA from Feral Template + 2 NA from DFA on top of everything else should do the trick. Thanks!

So far that's Dragonfire Adept 2/Binder 3/XX 1/ZZ 1/HideCarved Dragon 12.
Binder is for Dahlver-Nar, DFA gets +2 NA, a breath weapon and an Invocation.

What should I pick for the other 2 classes? I was first thinking of Cleric (with magic domain) for wand use and Law Devotion and Druid with the Swift Hunter Druid ACF, for more wand use, Wis to AC when unarmoured and a favoured enemy, but then I realized that with Desert Kobold and Mineral Warrior I've got -4 to wisdom, so that's probably not the best idea.

Any suggestions?

Oh, and If Fractional Saves are used, that puts the minimum entry level down to 5, not 6.

[Mithril Leaf]

If we're being slightly cheesy, only 2 days of vile rigidity will get you a +2 without any penalty if you cure it then. Nothing is said about losing the bonus after curing the disease so it's reasonable to assume that you don't lose it after losing the disease, akin to ability damage.

[Kelb_Panthera]

6 NA from Feral Template + 2 NA from DFA on top of everything else should do the trick. Thanks!

So far that's Dragonfire Adept 2/Binder 3/XX 1/ZZ 1/HideCarved Dragon 12.
Binder is for Dahlver-Nar, DFA gets +2 NA, a breath weapon and an Invocation.

What should I pick for the other 2 classes? I was first thinking of Cleric (with magic domain) for wand use and Law Devotion and Druid with the Swift Hunter Druid ACF, for more wand use, Wis to AC when unarmoured and a favoured enemy, but then I realized that with Desert Kobold and Mineral Warrior I've got -4 to wisdom, so that's probably not the best idea.

Any suggestions?

Oh, and If Fractional Saves are used, that puts the minimum entry level down to 5, not 6.

I'm pretty sure that fractional saves push this back to epic only. Since if I recall correctly, you don't get the extra +2 for multiclassing into another good X save class.

[Eldan]

Urpriest, maybe, since you need Iron Will anyway?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

6 NA from Feral Template + 2 NA from DFA on top of everything else should do the trick. Thanks!

Oh, and If Fractional Saves are used, that puts the minimum entry level down to 5, not 6.

Feral's natural armor replaces what the base creature had, it's not added to it. You can get either the +6 for Feral or the +1 for Kobold, not both.

Fractional base saves only give you the +2 bonus the first time you gain a level with a good save. Multiclassing dips don't give you a +2 per 1st level of a class with fractional. The minimum level to get a +12 base save with fractional base saves is 20th (1/2 your total levels with that as a good save, + 1/3 your total levels with that as a poor save, +2 for the first time that was a good save).

[Waddacku]

Actually, the fractional base saves system from UA still gives you the +2 for every class you take with a good save.

[Randomguy]

Feral's natural armor replaces what the base creature had, it's not added to it. You can get either the +6 for Feral or the +1 for Kobold, not both.


I could add on an amulet of Natural Armour +1, then.

[Rhatahema]

Been a long time since I made the attempt, and I used flaws and Dragon Magazine. There might be some errors in this, but...

Lawful Neutral White Dragonspawn [Dragonlance] Mineral Warrior [Underdark] Earth Kobold (+2 LA total)
Lion Samurai1 [OA] / Druid (Shapeshift Varient) 1/ Duskblade 1/ Hexblade1/ Illuminated Monk1[dr340]/Marshal1/ Hidecarved Dragon12
Dragonwrought [lv1] Iron Will [LS1] INA [flaw 1, flaw2, lv3, lv6] Skill Focus (diplomacy) [monk1] INA [Marshal1] Awaken Spell Resistance [lv9]
+7NA [White Dragon Spawn]
+3NA [Mineral Warrior]
+5NA [improved natural armor: flaw 1, flaw2, lv3, lv6, marshal1]
+4NA [Shapeshift: Predator Form]
+1NA [Necklace of Natural Armor]
=+20NA

Eventually the NA boosts from Hidecarved would qualify you without any items or shapechanging. Also, Voidmind offers +1NA more than Stoney, except...You'd have to be a Voidmind creature.

[Ganorenas]

Do not forget about grafts, specifically the Beholder plate graft from Fiend folio. For an investment of gold (and the hatred of all beholders) you gain +4 natural armor.
(I am afb, but I think it is for 36,000gp)

Because you can use the amulet based on the flavor text, you can just use a +5 amulet to improve upon the above build, free up those 4 feats. The +6 from hide carved will make it so you can sustain the class incase you are hit with a disjunction or dispel magic, or send your amulet to the cleaners...

One of my players have recently brought this up for my current campaign, we plan on going epic so he went a different route and doesn't mind finishing the prestige at level 28 (he is using the half dragon template with LA buy off)

Grafts make everything better =P

Edit:
Do not forget to earn some spell resistance and DR so that you get everything out of the class, make the most of your levels! (with those 4 freed feats maybe...)
There is also an older thread about this somewhere

[Cieyrin]

Fractional base saves only give you the +2 bonus the first time you gain a level with a good save. Multiclassing dips don't give you a +2 per 1st level of a class with fractional. The minimum level to get a +12 base save with fractional base saves is 20th (1/2 your total levels with that as a good save, + 1/3 your total levels with that as a poor save, +2 for the first time that was a good save).

That's a different spin on Fractional than I've ever seen. Looking at Fractional in UA, the example of the Fighter 2/Cleric 5 has a Fort of +7.5, not the +5.5 you're suggesting it is.


There is also an older thread about this somewhere

This isn't the first time and this won't be the last that someone looks at the Hidecarved Dragon and wonder how to get in pre-epic. I know I've made a thread a long while ago and there were such threads here, on WotC, Brilliant Gameologists (now MinMaxBoards) and I'm sure in many other places. Google and be enlightened.

[The Random NPC]

That's a different spin on Fractional than I've ever seen. Looking at Fractional in UA, the example of the Fighter 2/Cleric 5 has a Fort of +7.5, not the +5.5 you're suggesting it is.

It's a reasonable mistake to make, I made the same one until I was corrected by this thread.

[Darrin]

There have been a couple previous attempts to do this: Person_Man's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101742) and Cieyrin's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127727).