Crusader Help

[Mari01]

Hello everyone. Recently I petitioned the board for an all TOB game. To my surprise it actually got quite a few responses and now there's a DM and everything. Here's my problem: My IRL group HATES TOB. They gave every excuse in the book from "it just doesn't fit" to "I dont like it", so I've never gotten the chance to actually play much. Given that the entire group in this game will be melee/ranged, I thought a Crusader focusing on Devoted Spirit/White Raven would be perfect. Any tips on this?

TL;DR Devoted Spirit/White Raven Crusader in all TOB party. 32 PB.

[heronbpv]

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Try the lockdown build, I believe there's one posted on the Crusader Handbook.

[Eldariel]

Are you locked to only ToB classes? 'cause a perfect "Marshal"-type character would use Song of the White Raven and few levels of Bard (or Paladin with "Harmonious Knight" Substitution Levels from Champions of Valor Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a); doesn't work by strict RAW since it's not called Bardic Music but it's not much of a stretch either).

Either way, 3-4 levels in the Inspire Courage class followed by straight Crusader works really well. Paladin/Crusader in particular is a natural combination and you get Turn Undead for Divine Might too if you feel so inclined (lets you key your Cha more into everything).


Oh, and pick up White Raven Tactics. Also, some of the movement maneuvers, Martial Spirit and anything that lets your allies do stuff. Leading the Charge is a must-have stance. Tripping is also a decent idea if nobody else is doing it; prone opponents are hugely vulnerable to Power Attack melee. Goes well with Thicket of Blades and reach weapon, too; you have Devoted Spirit so it's fairly painless to get.

[Mari01]

Are you locked to only ToB classes? 'cause a perfect "Marshal"-type character would use Song of the White Raven and few levels of Bard (or Paladin with "Harmonious Knight" Substitution Levels from Champions of Valor Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a); doesn't work by strict RAW since it's not called Bardic Music but it's not much of a stretch either).

Either way, 3-4 levels in the Inspire Courage class followed by straight Crusader works really well. Paladin/Crusader in particular is a natural combination and you get Turn Undead for Divine Might too if you feel so inclined (lets you key your Cha more into everything).


Oh, and pick up White Raven Tactics. Also, some of the movement maneuvers, Martial Spirit and anything that lets your allies do stuff. Leading the Charge is a must-have stance. Tripping is also a decent idea if nobody else is doing it; prone opponents are hugely vulnerable to Power Attack melee. Goes well with Thicket of Blades and reach weapon, too; you have Devoted Spirit so it's fairly painless to get.

This game is all tome of battle, outside of a few homebrewed classes allowed in after DM discretion.

[Krazzman]

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Try the lockdown build, I believe there's one posted on the Crusader Handbook.

Yeah, would say the same. Lockdown is pretty much Melee's form of winning.

Crusader or Warblade are good for this (see my recently revived thread).

Anyway... why do they don't want to implement it? If they say something like "I don't like it" response with "And? I don't like how they made the Wizard, so should I vote against Wizards when we play?"

Have them see reason. I didn't get it done in my Old group although one of them saw reason... but I don't have contact to them anymore so I could care less. Maybe some weeks in they get it that it's just Wizards try to fix it.

[Eldariel]

This game is all tome of battle, outside of a few homebrewed classes allowed in after DM discretion.

Hm, straight Crusader, pick up all the teamwork stances and such from White Raven and enjoy, then :smallcool: There's not much to say; you can't really screw it up. Lockdown is probably a good option but not the only way to go, to be sure.

[Mari01]

Yeah, would say the same. Lockdown is pretty much Melee's form of winning.

Crusader or Warblade are good for this (see my recently revived thread).

Anyway... why do they don't want to implement it? If they say something like "I don't like it" response with "And? I don't like how they made the Wizard, so should I vote against Wizards when we play?"

Have them see reason. I didn't get it done in my Old group although one of them saw reason... but I don't have contact to them anymore so I could care less. Maybe some weeks in they get it that it's just Wizards try to fix it.

I've tried this. Recently we made the switch to Pathfinder. Suddenly the Paladin is brokentier op and clerics are useless healbots. And it's not even that they (most of them) don't optimize their characters. For example, the current DM thinks pathfinder paladins are broken, but acknowledges that spell casters are too powerful and melee could use nice things.

[navar100]

The stance progression of the Crusader is out of whack, meaning you don't get a new stance when stances are available. By the book, you only have two 1st level stances for your first 7 levels, at level 8 you get a third level stance, at level 14 you get a 5th or 6th level stance, and you do not get an 8th level stance at all.

Since this is the first time using TOB, it might be difficult to ask for a house rule to allow exchanging a stance as you could a maneuver at 5th level and every 5 levels there after. Therefore, if you really want those stances as early as possible, you'll have to spend feats on Martial Stance to get them. Another option is to multiclass two levels before you reach level 8 in Crusader (Warblade or Swordsage for more maneuvers, Fighter for feats). That allows you to get a 5th level stance and 8th level stance without having to take Martial Stance. You'd still need to spend the feat for a 3rd level stance and a 6th level stance if you really want it.

As a first time TOB I advise against a prestige class. Know how the base classes and the maneuver system work first. However, Eternal Blade, Master of Nine (need to multiclass two levels with swordsage or warblade), and Ruby Knight Vindicator complement the Crusader well. Master of Nine is hardest because of the feat requirements but well worth it when increasing Crusader progression. I know from experience it is awesome!

For feats, Extra Granted Maneuver helps a lot. You refresh every three levels instead of four, which makes a huge difference. I'm partial to Vital Recovery. It's like a free potion of Cure Light Wounds once per combat, Cure Moderate Wounds starting at 10th level or so. For a Crusader who likes to get hit a lot because of Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike, it is a big deal and helpful when you'd really rather do a strike other than a healing one for a turn.

For stances: Iron Guard's Glare is a huge buff others to protect them at low level and still useful at mid-levels and beyond. Thicket Of Blades is a popular one for those who like area control and capitalize on attacks of opportunity, also known as Lockdown builds. My favorite is Aura of Perfect Order. That auto-11 roll is a major boon for when you want to guarantee making that important saving throw or you must, must, absolutely need to hit your opponent with a strike. Immortal Fortitude is considered the epitome of Crusader stances. Strength of Stone is also nice but you might have fortification armor by then.

For maneuvers: Take the healing strikes. It's what Crusaders do, and they work. Also, no matter what you do in any way for anything, the one maneuver you should get always and forever have it readied is White Raven Tactics. Just do. Don't question. Don't ponder. Just do. At higher levels, nearly equalling White Raven Tactics in importance are Order Forged From Chaos and White Raven Hammer. The party will absolutely love you for White Raven Tactics and Order Forged From Chaos, and you will love yourself for White Raven Hammer.

[Mari01]

The stance progression of the Crusader is out of whack, meaning you don't get a new stance when stances are available. By the book, you only have two 1st level stances for your first 7 levels, at level 8 you get a third level stance, at level 14 you get a 5th or 6th level stance, and you do not get an 8th level stance at all.

Since this is the first time using TOB, it might be difficult to ask for a house rule to allow exchanging a stance as you could a maneuver at 5th level and every 5 levels there after. Therefore, if you really want those stances as early as possible, you'll have to spend feats on Martial Stance to get them. Another option is to multiclass two levels before you reach level 8 in Crusader (Warblade or Swordsage for more maneuvers, Fighter for feats). That allows you to get a 5th level stance and 8th level stance without having to take Martial Stance. You'd still need to spend the feat for a 3rd level stance and a 6th level stance if you really want it.

As a first time TOB I advise against a prestige class. Know how the base classes and the maneuver system work first. However, Eternal Blade, Master of Nine (need to multiclass two levels with swordsage or warblade), and Ruby Knight Vindicator complement the Crusader well. Master of Nine is hardest because of the feat requirements but well worth it when increasing Crusader progression. I know from experience it is awesome!

For feats, Extra Granted Maneuver helps a lot. You refresh every three levels instead of four, which makes a huge difference. I'm partial to Vital Recovery. It's like a free potion of Cure Light Wounds once per combat, Cure Moderate Wounds starting at 10th level or so. For a Crusader who likes to get hit a lot because of Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike, it is a big deal and helpful when you'd really rather do a strike other than a healing one for a turn.

For stances: Iron Guard's Glare is a huge buff others to protect them at low level and still useful at mid-levels and beyond. Thicket Of Blades is a popular one for those who like area control and capitalize on attacks of opportunity, also known as Lockdown builds. My favorite is Aura of Perfect Order. That auto-11 roll is a major boon for when you want to guarantee making that important saving throw or you must, must, absolutely need to hit your opponent with a strike. Immortal Fortitude is considered the epitome of Crusader stances. Strength of Stone is also nice but you might have fortification armor by then.

For maneuvers: Take the healing strikes. It's what Crusaders do, and they work. Also, no matter what you do in any way for anything, the one maneuver you should get always and forever have it readied is White Raven Tactics. Just do. Don't question. Don't ponder. Just do. At higher levels, nearly equalling White Raven Tactics in importance are Order Forged From Chaos and White Raven Hammer. The party will absolutely love you for White Raven Tactics and Order Forged From Chaos, and you will love yourself for White Raven Hammer.

I've already received permission to use houseruled eratta that fixes their wonky stance progression (same with warblades). It can be viewed here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0

Thanks for all your input!