Why learn another language?

[Kaeso]

Hello everybody! Since there's not really a section I can put this in, I assume this is the place where I should post it. If I'm mistaken, I hope a mod will be friendly enough to point this out. While this subject may, debatable, have some political sides to it, I believe that it's a-political enough to not be considered a political subject as a whole.

Anyway, let's start at the beginning. I've been studying the French language for nearly two years now and I'm making quite some progress. The reason that I picked this language is because I believed it to be a useful and widely spoken language, on top of the fact that French is my mothers first language (so, to a certain extent, it was the most logical choice). However, recently I've started to doubt the usefulness of non-English languages.

It may not sound very cultured, but it's painfully true that pretty much everybody speaks English nowadays, due to America's massive influence in the world (especially the media), unmatched by any other political entity in world history, and globalisation. For example, when you're using the English language you can easily get by in countries as diverse as Brazil, France, Germany, Australia...pretty much every country. If a Dane, Japanese and Russian are in the same room, there's a 99.9% chance that they're conversing in the English language. Some French African countries may be exceptions but let's be honest: these countries aren't exactly tourist attractions and people aren't exactly lining up to trade with those countries, and even if it were the case the local elite most likely speaks English anyway.

So, to make a long story short (too late!), is there any real use in learning another language besides English, the unofficial global language?

[snoopy13a]

If you want to work in a service profession in another country. For example, if you wanted to work in France, you'd probably need to speak French to communicate with clients (who might not speak English).

The second reason I can think of is to get a job teaching that language.

[Yora]

French is useful when you go to places where everyone speaks French all the time. Or any other language or any other place.
And you need it when you expect that you will have to speak it with locals who don't know English well.

It's also quite useful if you want to read texts in the original language and not in a translation, because very often translations are not really good and have lots of errors and use wordings that create the wrong expressions.

But in either case, learning another language only makes sense when you can be reasonably sure that you will be needing this one language specifically.
For "might come handy someday", you really just need English. Everything else is for specific applications.

[Xondoure]

Well learning a new language is an excellent mental exercise. And it can expose you to new ideas, media, and people you otherwise would not have been able to grasp, view, or meet.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'm going to give a different answer.

The more languages you speak, and I mean TRULY speak, in that you can THINK in that language, the more WAYS you can think. You'll see different things if you think of it in one language than if you think of it in another.

For example, get a Spaniard and a German to describe a picture of a bridge. It's the same picture. The Spaniard tends to describe it with traditionally masculine terms: strength, sturdiness, etc. The German tends to describe it in traditionally feminine terms: beauty, elegance, etc. Why? Because German and Spanish are gendered language, and the word for "bridge" is masculine in Spanish and feminine in German.

Now, imagine you speak both Spanish AND German, well enough to be able to think in terms of both of those languages. Don't you now have a fuller understanding of that bridge?

Other than that, there's the cultural aspect. My favourite poem is in French. If I didn't speak French, I would NEVER have understood that poem. I'm not very good at French anymore, but I can read it well enough to be able to get through, slowly, any given novel. Yes, you can read a translation, but isn't it better to be able to consume culture in the language that the piece was meant to be consumed in?

Other than that, you might just think that a language is really pretty, or sounds really cool. The reason I'm learning Arabic is simply because I love written Arabic.

But the only real reason, if you're in an english-speaking country without any significant minority languages in it, is the first reason I gave, is that it opens the mind to different ways of thinking about the world.

[Grinner]

If you're looking to do business in another country, English seems to be the de facto trade language.

However, knowledge of the English language and a phrase guide can only get you so far. It's rare that two words of separate languages ever carry the exact same meaning. Since learning about the culture of any given country requires you to actually converse with the locals, a solid knowledge of their language will go far should you ever visit.

And like Yora said, translations can be spotty and fail to capture the more idiomatic aspects of the text. It behooves any good historian to familiarize himself with a couple of languages, at least.

Ultimately, the utility of learning a second language depends on what you want to do.

[JaaSwb]

To add to 'when you go to places where everyone speaks French all the time': people tend to really appreciate it if you make an effort to use their language. In quite a few places it's expected of anyone who stays there for a longer period or wants to do business there that they learn and use the local language.

[Mordokai]

There was a joke I hear and it went a little like this.

The wolf was lying by the road when he saw the fox coming down the road. She hasn't spotted him yet. He got an idea and hid himself in the bushes. When the fox came close enough, the wolf started mimicking the sound of the chicken. The fox figured there's a chicken in the bush and jumped in it to eat it. But there was only wolf there, who got what he wanted. Namely, the fox.

The moral of the story? The more languages you know, the more of them you can ****.

Lets not read too much into subtext of this joke, because I honestly think it was not supposed to sound anything more as a joke. I am well aware there is more than one way to interpret it and at least one of them is pretty creepy. I choose not to use that interpretation and you would do well not to as well.

[Destro_Yersul]

I, myself, really badly wish I knew Mandarin and Cantonese. I work in an area with a large Chinese population, and it would be really useful to be able to communicate effectively. Some of them don't speak English at all, and some of them have a poor grasp of the language.

[Katana_Geldar]

Learning another language leads to a better understanding of your own. Particularly English, as it's been fed from many different languages (and continues to do so).

A basic understanding of Latin is good if you are doing medicine.

[Razanir]

My first language is English; then I also speak some German and Chinese. I can even think in German. It's also cool because I've read Brothers Grimm stories in the original German.

我本来说的语言是英文。我说一点儿中文和德文。我还有看德文文书。

Meine erste Sprache ist Englisch. Ich spreche auch Deutsch und Chinesisch. Sogar kann ich auf Deutsch denken. Es ist auch interessant, denn ich Geschichten der Brüder Grimm auf Deutsch gelesen habe.

(Chinese edited because I don't know all the words) :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, it is really cool. I've never been out of the country, and even then I can think of a few cases where it's proved useful. And it really does affect your thought patterns. One REALLY useful thing is learning to use a smaller vocabulary. When you're trying to get a point across while still learning a language, it really helps you think about what you want to say.

[Crow]

I've been slogging through Icelandic off and on for about two years now. Talk about a useless language to know here in the States... I've been taking more vacations in Iceland just to have an opportunity to put it to use (quite horribly, I might add!). The people there always seem to be extremely surprised and pleased that I try, though.

Still glad I chose it. I don't think there is a sexier language to hear a woman speak than Icelandic. I find myself thinking in it occasionally, or replacing and with og. Biggest pain is getting on a computer at work that I haven't set up the icelandic keyboard layout on. It messes me all up.

[pffh]

Well everyone in Iceland learns Danish because the buggers ruled us for a few hundred years and it's really handy to know it since if we decide to study in Denmark we are treated as Danish citizens.

Other then that I know English because as you said it's the lingua franca of the western world and German since if you are traveling around Europe you can probably get by on those two languages.


Still glad I chose it. I don't think there is a sexier language to hear a woman speak than Icelandic.

Lies and libel! :smalltongue: Icelandic is sexy no matter which gender is speaking. :smallbiggrin:

Also there is no better language for poetry and for sounding manly.

[ForzaFiori]

Contrary to popular belief, only about 1/3 of the world can speak some form of English - and keep in mind, that sometimes even if you both speak English you can't understand each other, so speaking it as a second languages doesn't either (Think how difficult it would be for say, a South Carolinian to speak to a Cockney. Our slang is so different it's almost as hard to understand as Icelandic would be. now imagine the guy from SC talking to a Russian who learned it as a second (or third/fourth/fifth) language. Even harder.). With the exception of countries that English is an official language of, these people are spread throughout the world, meaning that in EVERY country you go to that doesn't natively speak English, there will be people you can't talk to. Some of them own stores, restaurants, or work in service industries. The amount of English speakers will drop if you leave any of the main tourist hubs (and trust me, you should. Think of your countries main "tourist areas" and how much you like them. The rest of the worlds are just as overpriced, overcrowded, and full annoying hawkers).

As an example: I was in Italy last summer. I even had a year of college Italian under my belt. I couldn't even communicate with every cashier I encountered, let alone all of the people who talked to me at some point. If I had spoken Italian fluently, My time there would have been even more amazing. In some cities, like Venice and Florence, there wasn't many problems. In Cinque Terre and at Lake Como, however, it was difficult to even order meals at times, let alone find out anything about my surroundings.


You also can't talk to all the awesome people who don't have great English skills. I have a friend from Italy who is about as good at English as I am at Italian, so we get together and talk in both, so if I don't remember how to say something in Italian (or her in English) we can use the other. People who don't know the language tend to have a harder time talking to you.

Personally, I wish I could learn more languages - German, Russian, Icelandic, Arabic, and Mandarin are at the top of my list (no particular order), and if I ever managed to learn those, then I'm sure I'd find more to want to learn.

[Amiria]

Meine erste Sprache ist Englisch. Ich spreche auch Deutsch und Chinesisch. Sogar kann ich auf Deutsch denken. Es ist auch interessant, denn ich Geschichten der Brüder Grimm auf Deutsch gelesen habe.

Not to be cruel, just brutally honest as is the German way :smalltongue:, there are still some errors in that, mainly syntax (word order).

What Yora said about reading texts in the original language is very true. English is the only language besides my mother tongue that I have mastered on a native speaker level (at least 'officially', it really doesn't flow as well as it should when it comes to speaking ... not enough practice). But reading and listening (e.g. movies) and comprehending media in its original language is always preferable. Too many nuances and peculiarities of language are lost in translation.

I also have a bilingual copy (french / german) copy of Charles Baudelaire's 'Les Fleurs du mal' even though I don't know French. But just seeing the French text (with its rhymes, unlike the good but just prosaic German translation) makes me appreciate the work a lot more.

[Mauve Shirt]

Must remember, "denn" doesn't move the verb around. I make that mistake ALL THE TIME. :smallbiggrin:

Learning other languages is fun. You can use it as a secret code with others who speak it. You can appreciate the little details of grammar and word order and gain the ability fit sentences together like a puzzle, which you don't do when you learn your first language of course. It's challenging and it's really rather cool.
And you can, like, speak it when you're in that country, and stuff. :smalltongue:

[shawnhcorey]

I, myself, really badly wish I knew Mandarin and Cantonese. I work in an area with a large Chinese population, and it would be really useful to be able to communicate effectively. Some of them don't speak English at all, and some of them have a poor grasp of the language.

Sounds like you're in the perfect position to learn Chinese. Just ask them for some help. The best way to learn a language is to use it. Learning it in a classroom only gives you the rudiments; to be able to think in it, you have to immerse yourself in the culture.

[Eldariel]

I'm going to give a different answer.

The more languages you speak, and I mean TRULY speak, in that you can THINK in that language, the more WAYS you can think. You'll see different things if you think of it in one language than if you think of it in another.

For example, get a Spaniard and a German to describe a picture of a bridge. It's the same picture. The Spaniard tends to describe it with traditionally masculine terms: strength, sturdiness, etc. The German tends to describe it in traditionally feminine terms: beauty, elegance, etc. Why? Because German and Spanish are gendered language, and the word for "bridge" is masculine in Spanish and feminine in German.

Now, imagine you speak both Spanish AND German, well enough to be able to think in terms of both of those languages. Don't you now have a fuller understanding of that bridge?

Other than that, there's the cultural aspect. My favourite poem is in French. If I didn't speak French, I would NEVER have understood that poem. I'm not very good at French anymore, but I can read it well enough to be able to get through, slowly, any given novel. Yes, you can read a translation, but isn't it better to be able to consume culture in the language that the piece was meant to be consumed in?

Other than that, you might just think that a language is really pretty, or sounds really cool. The reason I'm learning Arabic is simply because I love written Arabic.

But the only real reason, if you're in an english-speaking country without any significant minority languages in it, is the first reason I gave, is that it opens the mind to different ways of thinking about the world.

This is quite true; a language is more than just a means of communication. It's a big part of our thinking and world view; as such, learning different languages gives you a wider understanding and a more varied view of...well, everything. Simply, it enriches your mind.

Also, learning languages allows understanding the nature of human language in general better, which is obviously useful for those who actually study linguistics (such as yours truly), and for learning more foreign languages. After about 10 foreign languages, it's almost trivial to learn basically any new language since you have the methodology down (and there aren't all that many different types of grammar systems around the world in the end).


And of course, if you ever actually travel the world...well, most people working with tourists in big cities speak one of the big European languages (English, Spanish or Portuguese generally) but many of the locals don't, and go out of the big cities and the number of people fluent in foreign languages drops dramatically. I've gotten to use my German, French, Spanish & even Japanese in a chance encounter while traveling around Europe.

I've also been in a situation where knowing Italian & Dutch would've been extremely useful for me though generally I find you can make do with signs should worst come to worst (tho of course, this is only in Europe; signs are a part of language and mean different things around the world so had I been outside Europe I would've been wary).

For things like international trade and diplomacy, languages are of course incomparably valuable. People will simply treat you much more favorably should you speak their language. Oh, and if you ever want to get a French person to speak English, there's no more sure-fire way than speaking poor French first. Try to talk English straight and they'll pretend they don't understand you but if you speak poor French they'll switch to English immediately.

Also, just about all works, be they movies, literature or any such, are superior in their language of origin. As such, I'd love to learn Polish to properly read the Witcher-books for instance and I'm learning Japanese, Korean and Chinese for certain works. It's just a completely different experience reading Lord of the Rings in English rather than in Finnish too (and on the contrary, reading e.g. Kalevala or Sinuhe Egyptian in Finnish); there are things that simply can't be translated (and I speak as a semi-professional translator here); proverbs, metaphors, puns, politeness levels, ideas that only make sense in their language of origin.


So...yeah, if you ever get the chance to learn a new language, I suggest you take it. Just enriching your thinking and giving you new perspectives should be worth it alone. Then, if there's any chance any manner of an international career might interest you, languages are of course absolutely necessary to open those doors.

[pffh]

Also, just about all works, be they movies, literature or any such, are superior in their language of origin.

Not to mention the fact that great many works aren't translated into English.

[a_humble_lich]

Contrary to popular belief, only about 1/3 of the world can speak some form of English ...

Just to add to that. In some parts of the world most people can speak English, but there are large parts of the world where English knowledge is not common at all. I lived in West Africa for to years, and while I was in an Anglo-phone country, in the neighboring franco-phone countries English knowledge was nearly non-existent. Similarly in large parts of Latin America.

[Winter_Wolf]

You learn other languages because it's FUN. Well I learn other languages because its FUN. Other people have their reasons, I'm sure. Currently I speak English (mother tongue), Japanese, and Mandarin. I have a vague understanding of Shanghai Chinese, once upon a time I studied German and forgot most of it, and very briefly studied Spanish (but honestly that was just to look good on the university application and I dropped it the second I got my acceptance letter).

I am trying to learn Russian and Norwegian, because I have ancestors/relatives from Russia and Norway, and also because I happen to think that they're beautiful sounding languages. I've often thought, that by comparison with so many other languages, English is rather ugly sounding. It is however extremely practical and really really good for business and legal matters.

Also, you never know when it will come in handy. Even Yupik* can come in handy, when you'd least expect it. Given my plans for the future, it would be beneficial for me to know Yupik, though honestly I'm not sure my throat can handle speaking it. Loads of glottal stops and gutteral sounds. Loads of 'em.

*Yupik being in this case an Eskimo/Native Alaskan language spoken mainly in Southwest (Alaska, that is). There's also Siberian Yupik, but I gather it's different enough that it may as well be considered a different language.

[Razanir]

Must remember, "denn" doesn't move the verb around. I make that mistake ALL THE TIME. :smallbiggrin: *snip* And you can, like, speak it when you're in that country, and stuff. :smalltongue:

Thanks! I'm actually only teaching myself, so I'm not at all surprised that I made a few mistakes. And "in that country" includes at Epcot. True story:
*grabs keychain at Epcot with my name in Chinese*
Hmm... I recognize those two characters, but not the other one. I'll go ask
(To a worker) 请问，我怎么音发这字？(Incorrectly saying "How do I pronounce this?")
Worker: *thinks a bit* Ma
Me: 谢谢！(Thank you!)

Embarrassing for multiple reasons, but still a pretty darn funny story

[Dark Elf Bard]

A really good language to learn?


Javascript.




What?

[Xuc Xac]

Already mentioned, but I'll repeat for emphasis:

It gives you a new, deeper perspective on the world. Asking "Why learn another language?" is like "Why use HDTV when you can already see pictures on a black and white CRT?"

It gives you more ways to think, more ways to approach a problem or idea, more mental tools.

Things are lost in translation. Would you rather read Shakespeare as "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!" or "My friends, attack the opening again!"?

[Winter_Wolf]

Things are lost in translation. Would you rather read Shakespeare as "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!" or "My friends, attack the opening again!"?

Honestly if they'd have had the "plain modern English" translation of Shakespeare's works when I was in high school, I'd have been all over that. Along with literally every other student in the school.

But agreement on things lost in translation. One of the big reasons I refuse to watch dubbed anything if I can understand the original language.

[Eldan]

I can give you the following story a friend told me. He's a canadian exchange student here in Switzerland.

People will talk English to you while you work. And they will be very polite. You will have few problems. However, as soon as a social situation comes up? They will talk English whenever they talk to you, still, but at a party, etc. anything not directly directed at you will be in another language. You will be left out of half the social stuff, unless you interrupt and ask them to talk English. It's apparently not a pleasant experience, if you constantly have to ask "could you translate that joke into English for me?"

[Yora]

The more languages you speak, and I mean TRULY speak, in that you can THINK in that language, the more WAYS you can think. You'll see different things if you think of it in one language than if you think of it in another.
My believe is that our brains actually store memories in "language format" and not in "video format". Over time things fade from your mind and when you recall a memory those holes are filled in with new images created from the language based memory. In your mind, you know exactly what you saw, but actually your brain creates a new image that fits the narrative memory you have stored.

And this also happens in real time as you experience your environment. The brain is immediately throwing away 99% of all "incomming data" from the sensory nerves and only provides to your consciousness what is important to make descisions. The automatic filter that descides what might be important and what is not is also language based. With other languages, you have new concepts, and with more concepts in your brain, you can actually see more things. Your sensory nerves will react as they always did, but your brain points out more things to your consciousness that might be important for a descision.

It's like figuring out the dimensions of a circle without the concept of Pi. It's incredibly confusing and there seems to be no easy way to calculate them. Add the concept of Pi and it's actually not very difficult.

As an illustration, I saw this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b71rT9fU-I) some weeks ago.
These people can see a tiny difference in shades of green, but they can't see a sky-blue sqare in a group of grass green squares.

[Castaras]

Learning new languages helps your brain. Learning to speak two or more languages is tough. It teaches you new skills and helps you to understand new cultures. Different languages have their own local expressions (The first thought I have is that in English we'd say "Passed Out", and in France I believe they say "Falling into the Apples". Don't quote me on that though.), which add more colour to the world and more interesting things to find out.

It's also useful to look at languages and how they evolve - it teaches you a lot about different societies and how they're advancing. Again, the french every day person will sometimes use smatterings of english terms for things, whereas the french language people try and make french words to keep their language "pure". Which is very amusing to those of us who speak English, which beats up other languages and robs them of their words.

[Razanir]

Honestly if they'd have had the "plain modern English" translation of Shakespeare's works when I was in high school, I'd have been all over that. Along with literally every other student in the school.

But agreement on things lost in translation. One of the big reasons I refuse to watch dubbed anything if I can understand the original language.

I might be wrong, because I've never read a foreign copy of Lord of the Rings, but any good translator should not use formal pronouns when the hobbits are talking. It's interesting when you read the appendices, because you learn an interesting intricacy of hobbit-language. In Westron (LotR Common), they have both formal and informal pronouns. However, whereas English did away with informal pronouns in the past 3-400 years, the hobbits did away with formal pronouns. Ever wonder why everyone in Minas Tirith assumed Pippin was royalty? Because he talked down to everyone. And please, if someone has a foreign language version, let me know if my assumption about the translations is correct.

[Eldariel]

I might be wrong, because I've never read a foreign copy of Lord of the Rings, but any good translator should not use formal pronouns when the hobbits are talking. It's interesting when you read the appendices, because you learn an interesting intricacy of hobbit-language. In Westron (LotR Common), they have both formal and informal pronouns. However, whereas English did away with informal pronouns in the past 3-400 years, the hobbits did away with formal pronouns. Ever wonder why everyone in Minas Tirith assumed Pippin was royalty? Because he talked down to everyone. And please, if someone has a foreign language version, let me know if my assumption about the translations is correct.

It's actually not changed, at least in the Finnish version. The translator noted that while Finnish has the formal pronouns available, since the original book lacked them he feels he's not qualified to decide for Tolkien where they are or are not used and as such used the less formal pronouns everywhere.

The translation itself is amazingly done tho; even various phrases are translated far as the language lets him. I don't have the book at hands so I can't give you actual examples (been a long while since I read it in Finnish; it was before I was fluent in English really) but I remember marveling at how well it was done after having read it in English for the first time.

[Prime32]

I've heard of some works with conlangs where the translators created a new conlang so it would feel the same to the target audience as to the original one.

Only thing I can remember re: LotR was that there were apparently flame wars in Japan over whether Strider should be "Sutoraidaa" or "Haseo". "Haseo" sounds mundane, which is how Strider was supposed to sound in English, but it also seems odd for a quasi-European guy to have a Japanese name.

[Xondoure]

I've heard of some works with conlangs where the translators created a new conlang so it would feel the same to the target audience as to the original one.

Only thing I can remember re: LotR was that there were apparently flame wars in Japan over whether Strider should be "Sutoraidaa" or "Haseo". "Haseo" sounds mundane, which is how Strider was supposed to sound in English, but it also seems odd for a quasi-European guy to have a Japanese name.

Well it's a little odd for a quasi european guy to be speaking in japanese now isn't it? :smalltongue:

[dps]

A couple of points (pretty much already noted by others, but what the heck):

In countries where English isn't the primary language, yes, you can find enough local people who speak English that you can get by--as long as you stick to the touristy areas and businesses involved in foreign trade. Once you get beyond that, though, you may have problems. And sometimes it may be to your benefit to get beyond those places. For example, my brother was stationed in Italy for several years while he was in the service, and he made a point to learn some Italian because the restaurants that didn't primarily cater to tourists and American servicement (and therefore were considerably less likely to have any English speaking person on staff) generally had better food. Or say you have to rent a car--you can find someone who speaks English at the rental place, almost certainly, but what if you have an accident or breakdown?

Even if the US, sometimes it's helpful to know a bit of a foreign language. The are where we lived until this spring had so many Hispanics that my wife found it useful to learn some Spanish just to be able to take orders at Burger King. (Keep in mind that this was in a fairly rural area of North Carolina.)

[ForzaFiori]

Even if the US, sometimes it's helpful to know a bit of a foreign language. The are where we lived until this spring had so many Hispanics that my wife found it useful to learn some Spanish just to be able to take orders at Burger King. (Keep in mind that this was in a fairly rural area of North Carolina.)

That's becoming alot more common in SC too. The little bit of Spanish I still know comes in really handy at my job, because alot of the Hispanic immigrants work construction, and they have varying english skills. My roommate (who knows alot more spanish then me) regularly uses his as well, both in his current job at a gas station, and when he worked in retail. Even managed to talk to a Brazilian, even though he was technically speaking Portuguese.

[snoopy13a]

Even if the US, sometimes it's helpful to know a bit of a foreign language. The are where we lived until this spring had so many Hispanics that my wife found it useful to learn some Spanish just to be able to take orders at Burger King. (Keep in mind that this was in a fairly rural area of North Carolina.)

Knowing Spanish almost guarantees a job in the U.S. But other languages can be useful also. For example, I've seen law firms advertise for Chinese-speaking lawyers--a few small firms are looking for people who can communicate with Chinese-immigrant clients and some large international firms are looking to better serve their clients in China.

[Mauve Shirt]

Another good language to know in the US is American Sign Language. That's a whole underserved piece of the population. My sister wants to learn it because there are no psychologists in the area who specialize in helping the deaf.

[Ninja Dragon]

Well, I live in Brazil, so my first language is Portuguese. My second language is English, and I think I'm pretty good at it, although my experience in speaking it is about zero. I've had English lessons, but those ended over 4 years ago and I've had barely any opportunity to speak the language since.

But I plan go on a student exchange program to USA or England next year, so my English speaking skills may finally be put to use.

As for speaking other languages, I think it's mandatory if you plan to go stay in a country for more than, say, 2 months. But for quick travels, business and internet communication, English does the job. In fact, I think is this is the only language that all seven billion in the world must speak in order to have a good chance of career success their lives. The rest is just situational.

But again, learning a different language seems to be an enlightening experience. I might try to learn some other language one day.

[Serpentine]

Another good language to know in the US is American Sign Language. That's a whole underserved piece of the population. My sister wants to learn it because there are no psychologists in the area who specialize in helping the deaf.I learnt the Australian (which seems to be the same as the UK, but I'm not sure) two-handed signing alphabet in high school. Met my first-ever deaf person, try to see if he'll practice it with me or at least check whether I've remembered it right... He doesn't know sign language. What sort of a deaf person doesn't know sign language?! :tongue:

I'm not good with languages. I deeply envy the people who are. I can count to 39 in French, and I still remember a few bits and pieces of Indonesian. The latter is the only one I've had a chance to put into practice, and based on that I can give two more reasons why even just knowing a bit of a language is a good idea:

1. It seems to impress the locals. Or at least the ones in Bali. All I'd have to say is "berapa ini?" ("How much for this?"), and they'd be all "You speak bahasa! Bagus, bagus!" When you have hundreds of foreign tourists filing through your shop all day yammering at you in whatever language they speak, I bet it's nice to hear your own language every now and then, even if it's slow and bad. And it felt friendlier, slightly less cut off from them. Although I did have one or two people tell me to stop trying because their English was so much better than my Indonesian and they understood me better in the former <.<

2. It seems really rude to go to someone else's country and not even try to speak to them in their own language. I think that any time you're in a country that doesn't speak your language you should at least learn "hello", "how are you", "good", "yes and no", "please", "thank you", "how much for...", "where is...", "I don't speak [their language]", and "do you speak [your language]?" Hell, you don't even have to memorise it in advance - just have a piece of paper with all of them written down; you'll remember them eventually anyway. More than likely - especially if your native language is English - most of the time they'll talk to you in your language, but I think going to the effort of trying and not expecting them to do that can go a long way.

Also, for (http://notalwaysright.com/parlez-vous-douchebag/19979) these (http://notalwaysright.com/to-conjugate-a-thief/20886) situations (http://notalwaysright.com/seoul-much-for-that-brilliant-idea/22249).

[Whiffet]

Along with what everyone else said, the way languages are related to each other can also give you a glimpse into world history. Seeing the way they're related to each other and how an early language evolved into other languages is fascinating.


Also, for (http://notalwaysright.com/parlez-vous-douchebag/19979) these (http://notalwaysright.com/to-conjugate-a-thief/20886) situations (http://notalwaysright.com/seoul-much-for-that-brilliant-idea/22249).

I'm vaguely disturbed by the fact that I'd already visited one of those links.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Along with what everyone else said, the way languages are related to each other can also give you a glimpse into world history. Seeing the way they're related to each other and how an early language evolved into other languages is fascinating.



I'm vaguely disturbed by the fact that I'd already visited one of those links.

Me too. Huh.

[The Succubus]

I learnt the Australian (which seems to be the same as the UK, but I'm not sure) two-handed signing alphabet in high school. Met my first-ever deaf person, try to see if he'll practice it with me or at least check whether I've remembered it right... He doesn't know sign language. What sort of a deaf person doesn't know sign language?! :tongue:

Just to make things extra tricky, each country has its own Sign Language. British signing is different to American signing which is different to Aussie signing.

Oddly enough, although we get taught basic finger spelling as audiologists, the number of us that actually know full blown signing is very low.

As for why learn another language? I remember hearing somewhere that young ladies like a guy that's good with his tongue.

Being serious though, it's always nice to explore another language for whatever reason, learning its various quirks and silly behaviours (for example, the Danish word "appelsin" does not, in fact have anything to do with apples. They're oranges.). Of course, it's one thing to speak a language in a classroom but quite another to actually speak it while you're in that particular country. I spent quite a while learning all sorts of languages - Afrikaans, Welsh, Japanese, Chinese, Danish, Dutch....but a typical conversation with any of them would go something along these lines:

Me: <Introduces himself>

Them: Oh! You speak XYZ! <Cue very long sentence, possibly ending in a question?>

Me: .....meep..... :smallredface::smalleek:

[smellie_hippie]

I learnt the Australian (which seems to be the same as the UK, but I'm not sure) two-handed signing alphabet in high school. Met my first-ever deaf person, try to see if he'll practice it with me or at least check whether I've remembered it right... He doesn't know sign language. What sort of a deaf person doesn't know sign language?! :tongue:


I learned ASL (sign language), English. I can hold my own speaking, but struggle with the sentence structure and grammar for PROPER ASL.


Just to make things extra tricky, each country has its own Sign Language. British signing is different to American signing which is different to Aussie signing.

Oddly enough, although we get taught basic finger spelling as audiologists, the number of us that actually know full blown signing is very low.


I know that the words and such can vary, but aren't the letters for fingerspelling consistent across borders? I suppose some of the different letters that don't appear in the 26 character english alphabet would be different, but a C is a C across the board... right?


One of the things I have learned through trying to learn a different language is that it does a good job of showing respect. "You have taken the time and effort to try and speak with me, rather than waiting for me to learn English". Even if you speak badly, you can defiantely eanr respect for your efforts...

[Brother Oni]

I, myself, really badly wish I knew Mandarin and Cantonese. I work in an area with a large Chinese population, and it would be really useful to be able to communicate effectively. Some of them don't speak English at all, and some of them have a poor grasp of the language.

Unless you want to learn both languages, can I suggest finding out which one is spoken more commonly amongst your target group?

Unless they're mostly from Hong Kong (where Cantonese is the default and uses the traditional script), I suggest focusing your time on Standard Mandarin and the shorthand script.


Another reason why to learn another language - communicating with children from another country.
All my nieces and nephews are fairly young and hence all speak English sparingly (Cantonese on one side, Japanese on the other) and it's tricky to get them to behave or tell them off if you don't have at least a passing knowledge of scolding terms or at least the words "No" and "Don't do that".


Also, for (http://notalwaysright.com/parlez-vous-douchebag/19979) these (http://notalwaysright.com/to-conjugate-a-thief/20886) situations (http://notalwaysright.com/seoul-much-for-that-brilliant-idea/22249).

In addition to this, if you ever go travelling and get questioned by officials of any sort.

Being able to answer the police or immigration officer in their native language makes things go much easier and they're usually less tempted to play games of 'screw the foreigner over' if they think you can understand them.

[Kd7sov]

Personally? It's fun. Fun to know things, fun to be able to play with language, fun to see some of the common roots. Fun, sometimes, to be able to speak without being understood. Fun, on occasion, to speak to my brother in one language, and have him respond in another, neither of which is our native tongue.

Also, as a certain webcomic (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/30.html) once pointed out, German is a good language to get angry in.

[Yora]

There are so many wrong predjudices about the German language...

But this one is completely and undeniably true... :smallsigh:



We also can talk in a lot of other ways, but if you want to sound angry, German is a very good choice.

[Eldan]

I always had the opposite opinion, But then, I seem to be the only person on the internet who thinks that.

I was always of hte opinion that the German language is too soft to sound properly dramatic. Especially in fantasy novels. I mean, just compare a few word choices from English to German:

War - Krieg
Doom - Verdammnis
Fate - Schicksal.

Also, I just never found a short, snappy swearword in German. There's just no good equivalent of the S-word or the F-word.

[Tyndmyr]

So, to make a long story short (too late!), is there any real use in learning another language besides English, the unofficial global language?

If you're good at it, being a linguist is a viable career choice. Something to consider.

[Yora]

I always had the opposite opinion, But then, I seem to be the only person on the internet who thinks that.

I was always of hte opinion that the German language is too soft to sound properly dramatic. Especially in fantasy novels. I mean, just compare a few word choices from English to German:

War - Krieg
Doom - Verdammnis
Fate - Schicksal.

Also, I just never found a short, snappy swearword in German. There's just no good equivalent of the S-word or the F-word.
Maybe you just know the wrong kind of German. :smallbiggrin:
In north and central Germany, we have a lot of good snappy ones. :smallamused:
Like the German S-word, but that would probably sound funny in swiss German. And you know, everything sounds funny in swiss German. That language doesn't do snappy.

[tensai_oni]

I was always of hte opinion that the German language is too soft to sound properly dramatic. Especially in fantasy novels. I mean, just compare a few word choices from English to German:

War - Krieg
Doom - Verdammnis
Fate - Schicksal.

These do not sound properly dramatic to you? The German words sound epic. Their English equivalents are like primitive grunting noises in comparison.

[Tengu_temp]

"Everyone can speak English" is a myth. In most places with a different native language a lot of people will only have a very barebones proficiency in English, or not even that. You can clumsily communicate what you want, sure, but any actual conversation? Very hard. So if you want to spend your time around people who are not native English speakers, it's a very good idea to learn their language.

Also, languages let you watch different shows and movies in their native language. Especially useful for French and Japanese.

[Serpentine]

Yeah. When I went to country Lombok, hardly anyone there spoke good Bahasa Indonesia, much less English.

[Themrys]

I've heard of some works with conlangs where the translators created a new conlang so it would feel the same to the target audience as to the original one.

Only thing I can remember re: LotR was that there were apparently flame wars in Japan over whether Strider should be "Sutoraidaa" or "Haseo". "Haseo" sounds mundane, which is how Strider was supposed to sound in English, but it also seems odd for a quasi-European guy to have a Japanese name.

But Strider is not a name, it's a description. It is translated in the German translation (into a German description) and that doesn't sound strange in the least.

(Of course that could be more of a problem in Japanese since German is closely related to English and the languages sound alike, but I guess people can get used to it...as they do get used to Middle Earth people speaking Japanese)

[pendell]

From an intelligence or foreign service perspective, learning the language of the country you are assigned to is *vital*.

This is because wherever you're assigned, if you only speak English, you can only interact with the English-educated elite. Because of this, your view of your target market may be badly skewed. I can't, on this board, point out what kind of intelligence failures result from assuming that those nice English-speaking computer-literate people you meet on facebook represent the views of the entire population, but they aren't that hard to find.

To be effective, you've got to get out of the air-conditioned embassy, eat indigenous foods, visit indigenous people in their homes and speak their language. Otherwise , you might as well be back in a first world capital filling out reports.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eldariel]

There are so many wrong predjudices about the German language...

But this one is completely and undeniably true... :smallsigh:



We also can talk in a lot of other ways, but if you want to sound angry, German is a very good choice.

It's also a damn beautiful language and it's a real pleasure to the ear to hear e.g. opera or even just singing in German.


But Strider is not a name, it's a description. It is translated in the German translation (into a German description) and that doesn't sound strange in the least.

Well, it's certainly a name he's taken to using with the people of Bree. Hell, he even responds to it and considers it enough of his name to name his house "Telcontar".

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Oh man, German is a HEART-ACHINGLY beautiful language. I've heard German songs that would make a stone-hearted killer weep.

[dehro]

most of what follows will probably have been already said in one form or another.

that you need to learn the local lingo is obvious, when you plan to live in another country.. I say obvious but not all that much. I have a friend who lives in Shanghai who still doesn't speak chinese because he lives in a sort of "international bubble" where english is the main language.
If you work with foreign countries it's also a necessity (done that most of my life.. it really helps if you can bridge cultural divides and understand what the other guy thinks, not just what he's saying.)
for instance, I've seen my father spend 3-4 emails or half an hour talking, on a problem that would not have arisen if he and the other guy spoke a better english or understood their respective languages. a simple incomprehension due to imperfect knowledge of the go-between language can cause business deals to either not come to fruition or contain mistakes that need to be ironed out later on, with extra costs in time, money and energy..that is, if someone detects them at all.
knowing a language is hardly ever just about understanding what is being comunicated. it's about understanding the other guy, understanding the country where it's spoken, the culture behind it and the traditions that come with it. if you happen to know chinese but hand your business card to your chinese guest using only one hand instead of two, you're still doing it wrong.. and may appear rude. if you know french but mess about on the number of pecks on the cheek (kisses) you should give a friend when you encounter him/her, it's still going to be funny/awkward.. (that one is tricky anyway, because not in all of France is 4 the norm, despite what my old french colleague keeps telling me each time we meet and I forget).
it's worth knowing that in some countries a verbal contract is as binding as a written one, and that this is not the case in other countries...
the list of examples goes on and on, because every language comes with cultural references of it's own..
(for instance, I was very surprised to find out that when a friend of mine in Paris told me I was "chatré", I hope I'm writing this correctly, what he meant wasn't an assault on my manhood.. chatré means castrated, but in context, it meant I was very lucky... that's not what it means in italian or dutch.. whatever the context !)

English is wildly over-estimated in it's pervasiveness. most people in China don't speak it.. (which means .. a good chunk of the world's population). Most people in the arab speaking world don't speak it either.. despite it being used in school and public administration, the same applies to India..in general, most areas where education is optional/hard to come by/very basic, english isn't an option.
now, my latin teacher got lucky and when she got engine trouble in Scotland, a latin speaking local vicar managed to help her out..but in general, if you aim to travel or interact with people from other countries.. knowing at least a bit of the language you might encounter is always a good idea.
also..books.. plenty of times, a book read in the language it was written in is much better than even the best of translations.
as for your case of french being mother tongue to your mother (and, I assume, to her part of your family).. it's useful to know the language of your relatives.. so much less embarassing.
I grew up bilingual still speak dutch despite not having lived there since I was 8.. a friend of mine who also has a dutch mother was never taught the language and has to resort to speaking english with half her family.. she's not all that good in english..
I know that I would feel.. cramped.. if I couldn't speak to my grandparents in their language..however good my or their english may be.
and then of course there's accents... the number of variations in pronounciation of the language in England alone is impressive. my first stay in England, a month in summer 2000 armed with imperfect english at best, it took me 2-3 weeks to get to understand the local guys in Stoke-on-Trent.
people for whom English is not their first language can butcher it in new and creative ways.. all in all, comunication, despite having a common palette to work with, may very well be more difficult than you'd think.
knowing more languages can actually help you to understand languages that you don't really know, or to better your understanding of the various languages you do know.. simply by association and by..opening your mind to different grammar structures.
all in all, I find that polyglots have a better chance at understanding languages they don't know than someone who only speaks one language would have if he tried

[Yora]

and then of course there's accents... the number of variations in pronounciation of the language in England alone is impressive. my first stay in England, a month in summer 2000 armed with imperfect english at best, it took me 2-3 weeks to get to understand the local guys in Stoke-on-Trent.
people for whom English is not their first language can butcher it in new and creative ways.. all in all, comunication, despite having a common palette to work with, may very well be more difficult than you'd think.
I have been speaking almost perfect Standard German for all my life, and I can't understand half of the native German speakers in Germany. :smallbiggrin:
It's easier with young people, since they grew up with radio and TV. But everyone over 40 south of Hannover could be speaking Dutch or Alemanic.

[Winter_Wolf]

We also can talk in a lot of other ways, but if you want to sound angry, German is a very good choice.

Just like Chinese! Seriously, they're all screaming at each other all the time. But I think it's because they're all trying to be heard over all the noise of everyone else screaming. Or hearing loss. There's a lot of noise and very few hard controls on noise pollution.

[Eldan]

I have been speaking almost perfect Standard German for all my life, and I can't understand half of the native German speakers in Germany. :smallbiggrin:
It's easier with young people, since they grew up with radio and TV. But everyone over 40 south of Hannover could be speaking Dutch or Alemanic.

Well, we are sort of still speaking Alemannic here. The Swiss are Alemanni.

Those of us who aren't Rhaetian, at least. Which, according to my family, I am at least partially.

[ForzaFiori]

Well, we are sort of still speaking Alemannic here. The Swiss are Alemanni.

Those of us who aren't Rhaetian, at least. Which, according to my family, I am at least partially.

In Spanish, all Germans are alemán. :smallbiggrin: Same in French (Allemand).

[dehro]

In Spanish, all Germans are alemán. :smallbiggrin: Same in French (Allemand).

in Italian, Germans live in Germania, but are called Tedeschi, and speak Tedesco.

[ForzaFiori]

in Italian, Germans live in Germania, but are called Tedeschi, and speak Tedesco.

And it took me until today to work up the energy to figure out where "tedeschi" comes from. Strangely, it's from the same word as "deustch" - "Theodiscus" a latinization of the german word for german.

[dehro]

And it took me until today to work up the energy to figure out where "tedeschi" comes from. Strangely, it's from the same word as "deustch" - "Theodiscus" a latinization of the german word for german.

as a kid I was utterly convinced that tedeschi lived in tedeschia and that the people from germania spoke germanico..and that they were unrelated
geography never was my strongest subject

[ForzaFiori]

as a kid I was utterly convinced that tedeschi lived in tedeschia and that the people from germania spoke germanico..and that they were unrelated
geography never was my strongest subject

I'm so happy to find out that this isn't something that just American's do. My friend and I knew a guy at school that thought that in Mexico they spoke Mexicanese, and that in the UK they spoke British, not English. As in a completely separate language.

The sad thing was that this was when we were 17, not when we were kids. He wasn't the brightest kid at school.

[Eldan]

In Spanish, all Germans are alemán. :smallbiggrin: Same in French (Allemand).

Yeah, I know. Same with French. Which is really a bit weird, given that the Alemanni dialects are really only spoken in the very south of Germany.

[mangosta71]

Back to the original question, I found that learning Spanish vastly increased my understanding of English. Particularly in terms of my grammar and vocabulary.

Also, if you're a fan of literature, you should, wherever possible, read texts in their original language.

[Wyntonian]

Because it's fun?

I dunno, I speak English, French and ASL, and I plan to take up as many as I can learn.

On a more practical note, I've found that french girls are vastly amused by my attempts to speak their language. One was amused enough that it made all my years of study worthwhile.

[Eldan]

Another thing: most young people here speak at least some English, it's mandatory in schools now. However, they tend to speak it badly. That results in a mixture of embarrassment, shyness, annoyance and general distance for the language that I've seen often. They will speak English to you, but they won't like it much. Good luck in social situations.

[rakkoon]

Well, if you speak English you never know if the other guy is just nodding or if he actually understands you. Happened to me on more than one occasion. If you speak their own language you at least know they'll ask for more info if they don't understand it.

Music is also a good reason, you can finally understand some legendary songs.
Granted you can look up the translation but that doesn't give the same vibe. Understanding what the Beatles, Edith Piaf, Zucchero and [insert own hero] are singing about in their own language is fun!

I personally love folkmetal and 90% of the bands sing in German. Motivated me a whole lot more than my German lessons in high school.

[Wyntonian]

Another thing: most young people here speak at least some English, it's mandatory in schools now. However, they tend to speak it badly. That results in a mixture of embarrassment, shyness, annoyance and general distance for the language that I've seen often. They will speak English to you, but they won't like it much. Good luck in social situations.

See, when I was in France, everyone came up to me and wanted to practice their English. I was all psyched up to show them frenchies how well I spoke their language aaaannnnddd.... They all wanted to speak English. :smallannoyed: The same thing happened when my parents went on their honeymoon in China.

And yes, I know that France and Germany are different countries with different cultures.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Probably because if you travel a bit you'll find out that many, many people don't speak english, or don't like speaking it.

I've been to a fair amount of different countries in different parts of the world, and even though I know that English will get me what and where I want most of the time (it doesn't always work!), I'll have to count on that people will scam me at least once on every longer trip as soon as they understand that I can't read or speak their language.

The thing is that I'm not mad at the ones doing it, I can afford it, and somehow I feel that it's my responsibility to be able to understand what kind of deal I'm making. If I get terribly overcharged when taking a cab in China or ordering food in Italy because I'm unable to read the receipt/menu that's my fault.

Basically I guess my view comes down to: When in Rome... You better speak Italian or be prepared to pay more and get less than the natives.

It doesn't just cover money though, unless you speak the native language you'll miss out on a lot of stuff to do, places to visit and food to try, to say nothing about all the literature and movies that are never translated/subbed.

But, as you said, you can manage on only one language, but you'll miss a lot of things in your life.

[Kd7sov]

That reminds me of another thing. I've never been out of the contiguous US, but I've got a friend who's traveled abroad several times. No matter where she goes, she makes sure she at least knows how to apologize for not knowing the local language - in the local language. Apparently the locals get a much better impression of you if they can tell you've made some effort.

[Goosefeather]

Because, even allowing for a very loose definition of 'speak', 75% of the world's population don't speak English.

Because it benefits you personally in many, many ways. Learning a language:

- is a stimulating mental discipline, and may even help delay Alzheimer's. It improves memory and develops various cognitive skills

- opens your mind to new ideas and cultures, making you a more well-rounded, more interesting person

- is a useful addition to pretty much any CV

- can constitute a career in itself (teaching, translating, interpreting, linguistics)

- increases business opportunities

- allows you to appreciate film, literature, poetry and music in the original

- allows you to cross cultural boundaries and meet many amazing people (I have several close friends with whom I never speak in my native English)

- is a highly interesting pursuit in and of itself

- has obvious benefits when travelling, and can inspire you to visit places you might not have considered otherwise. Travel is both easier and more fun if you speak the native language.

- allows you to see your own language in a new light, better understanding both it and your own culture. Studying a Romance or Germanic language, for example, allows you to discover interesting things about English vocabulary, such as the fact that 'dandelion' comes from the French 'dent de lion' - lion's tooth. You also gain a much better understanding of grammar, and how language works.

- impresses people, especially monolingual English speakers

- can allow you to communicate without bystanders understanding

- is sexy. Foreign accents are widely perceived as being attractive, probably to do with evolutionary desires to find a mate from a more distant gene-pool

- can be done by anyone. I thoroughly believe this. Some people might not be great at book-learning, but dump them in a situation where nobody speaks English, and within 6 months they'll be conversing with the best of them.


Additionally, it increases global understanding, and at the end of the day, is simply a polite and respectful thing to do, as opposed to assuming that everyone will/should just learn your own language.

Nelson Mandela:
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head.
If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart.

[Aedilred]

See, when I was in France, everyone came up to me and wanted to practice their English. I was all psyched up to show them frenchies how well I spoke their language aaaannnnddd.... They all wanted to speak English. :smallannoyed: The same thing happened when my parents went on their honeymoon in China.

And yes, I know that France and Germany are different countries with different cultures.
It's understandable really. Firstly, everyone recognises that English is a useful language to learn, so unless you have some deeply held personal determination not to learn it (which I can kind of understand) you're going to want to use any opportunity that comes your way to practise.

There is a secondary issue. I find that people are much more likely to "help me out" and speak to me in English if I've made at least a credible effort to speak to them in the local language. I've noticed it most in France, but it's happened to me in a lot of Europe. If you go in like a stereotypical English tourist, speaking only English and just raising the volume when they don't understand, often you're met with a blank stare, a Gallic shrug and "je pas", regardless of whether they actually understand or not.

If you're really unlucky, you get the same in Wales, where you can be pretty damn sure they do understand you, and they're just being deliberately annoying.

It's not all that great if you want to practise your own language skills, but you have to live with it. Besides, often their English isn't very good, so your own language skills are relevant, and a lot of the time I end up speaking a kind of improvised pidgin. In any case, I find that making an effort to speak the language results in a noticeably more positive reception than speaking just English.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that's another thing. I've especially noted it with the French, but it's not that uncommon otherwise. THe attitude of "Heck, he wants something from me, why do I have to spend years studying his language?"

[Aedilred]

I think the French have a (slightly) unfair reputation for rudeness to tourists. I don't think Paris is any less welcoming of tourists than London is, really (or for that matter any other areas which get a lot of them), it's just that the French mannerisms and language are better for expressing contempt, and the language barrier means it's harder for Americans in particular to communicate if the locals are feeling stubborn.

When I've been to areas of France that attract less foreign tourism, I've found the people much more welcoming. Unfortunately, while they're happier to deal with les anglais, the quality of English spoken is much worse, which can make communication difficult, especially since the dialects of French spoken are a bit more obscure.

That's reminded me of something else that came up when I was chatting to some French friends of mine a couple of years back and made reference to the English as "les rosbifs". They looked horrified and asked how I knew that they called us that. I thought it was common knowledge! (I managed to resist the temptation to ask them if they knew what we call them...)

Is it generally well-known what the slang (rude or not) names are that neighbouring peoples have for your own?

[Eldan]

I don't know. Does anyone have any about Swiss people? From what I know, we call the Germans just "Schwoben" (Swabians) or "Oh my god, more Germans".

[ForzaFiori]

It's not a different country (though it feels like it), but I know perfectly well that in the Northern US they call everyone here hicks and rednecks. Though partly because we call each other that too just for fun... Can't say I know any foreign slang for americans, though I'm sure they exist everywhere.

Anyone know any that are forum appropriate?

[Serpentine]

Yanks, of course.

[Goosefeather]

And 'gringo'.

For Brits, I'm aware of 'pommy', 'limey', 'rosbif' and 'guiri', though that last one isn't exclusive and can refer to pretty much anyone from Northern Europe.

Also, 'taff', 'jock' and 'sassenach' used between the various countries of the UK, with the first two probably being more well-known.

I know the Spanish call the French 'gabachos', but I'm not sure how aware the French are of this.

[Serpentine]

Are there any for Australians? I was expecting Ocker to be one, but from the sound of things that's an exclusively Australian term.

[Eldan]

I've heard Ozzie used a few times.

Really, the Swiss seem to be boring here. I can't recall any unusual names we use for foreigners. The only one I can think of is Yugo for people from Yugoslavia, and that's hardly creative.

[Wyntonian]

I'm curious what the French call Americans. I'd love a chance to discuss that one with a French-speaker.

[Goosefeather]

I can't think of anything beyond 'aussie' or 'ozzy' or however you want to spell it.

We do know, though, that you are all called Bruce and/or Sheila.

[Whiffet]

I've been to a fair amount of different countries in different parts of the world, and even though I know that English will get me what and where I want most of the time (it doesn't always work!), I'll have to count on that people will scam me at least once on every longer trip as soon as they understand that I can't read or speak their language.

Oh man, that right there? BIG reason to know the local language. My sister had to argue with a cab driver in Spanish when she visited Costa Rica. The guy apparently thought she was just a stupid little helpless American girl who wouldn't realize she was being ripped off. Luckily for her she's both fluent and stubborn.

[Goosefeather]

I'm curious what the French call Americans. I'd love a chance to discuss that one with a French-speaker.

It's probably unprintable... :smalltongue:

Edit: this thread (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1405100) may be of use!

[Rockphed]

To add to 'when you go to places where everyone speaks French all the time': people tend to really appreciate it if you make an effort to use their language. In quite a few places it's expected of anyone who stays there for a longer period or wants to do business there that they learn and use the local language.

My response to the original post was "Because it is polite".


Learning another language leads to a better understanding of your own. Particularly English, as it's been fed from many different languages (and continues to do so).

A basic understanding of Latin is good if you are doing medicine.

While I have heard this argument many times, my experience is that it is mostly promulgated because American's hate teaching English grammar. English grammar and spelling are less convoluted than many like to claim, though they are by no means simple.


What Yora said about reading texts in the original language is very true. English is the only language besides my mother tongue that I have mastered on a native speaker level (at least 'officially', it really doesn't flow as well as it should when it comes to speaking ... not enough practice). But reading and listening (e.g. movies) and comprehending media in its original language is always preferable. Too many nuances and peculiarities of language are lost in translation.

The Illiad and The Odyssey are epic poems in ancient Greek, but trying to read them in English is hard even with a good translation. The same is true of the great English epic poem Beowulf, which was written in an archaic form of English. If you could read them in their original form, the poetry inherent in them would become obvious immediately. In English, the poetry is either stunted and stilted, or ignored completely; either destroys a crucial part of the work.


I might be wrong, because I've never read a foreign copy of Lord of the Rings, but any good translator should not use formal pronouns when the hobbits are talking. It's interesting when you read the appendices, because you learn an interesting intricacy of hobbit-language. In Westron (LotR Common), they have both formal and informal pronouns. However, whereas English did away with informal pronouns in the past 3-400 years, the hobbits did away with formal pronouns. Ever wonder why everyone in Minas Tirith assumed Pippin was royalty? Because he talked down to everyone. And please, if someone has a foreign language version, let me know if my assumption about the translations is correct.

That is a bit of information I have never encountered before. I guess I need to turn in my Lord of the Rings geek card.:smallredface: Interestingly, we do still have the informal singular second person pronoun, but most people only encounter it in Shakespeare or The Bible. The last place I encountered it was The Titan's Curse, where a character consistently used the pronounic baggage of modern English wrong, probably because the author didn't know how to use them right.


Only thing I can remember re: LotR was that there were apparently flame wars in Japan over whether Strider should be "Sutoraidaa" or "Haseo". "Haseo" sounds mundane, which is how Strider was supposed to sound in English, but it also seems odd for a quasi-European guy to have a Japanese name.

One of the problems of translating from English is that English has robbed 4 or 5 languages of vocabulary over the past millennium, creating a very large, highly redundant, vocabulary. Consider the terms we have to describe size in excess of the average. There are the superlatives big, bigger, and biggest, but also large, larger, and largest. There are words on their own like enormous, or gargantuan, or massive. Then there are words like colossal and gigantic. By and large, they are interchangeable, but translating them all as "big equivalent" loses some meaning.

In the same way, we have several different words for walking, even ignoring words like prance which describe a specific type of gait.


Also, for (http://notalwaysright.com/parlez-vous-douchebag/19979) these (http://notalwaysright.com/to-conjugate-a-thief/20886) situations (http://notalwaysright.com/seoul-much-for-that-brilliant-idea/22249).

The titles on those links were awesome. The stories described were that much better.



Yanks, of course.

There are some parts of the United States where people haven't gotten over the american civil war and will take umbrage at being called anything related to "yankee".

[ForzaFiori]

There are some parts of the United States where people haven't gotten over the american civil war and will take umbrage at being called anything related to "yankee".

*raises hand* I would be extremely pissed if referred to as a yankee. I have friends who have started fistfights over it.


Are there any for Australians? I was expecting Ocker to be one, but from the sound of things that's an exclusively Australian term.

This may just be me and my friends, but we call Australians "kiwis", because I've found that nothing annoys y'all more then saying your from New Zealand.

[Eldan]

An informal survey amongst three friends and my family showed that out of seven people, I was the only one who knew that Yanks doesn't refer to all Americans.

Hm. Well, that would be awkward.

[Serpentine]

Usage determines definition *shrug*

And if you get to call us Kiwis to piss us off, we get to call you Yanks regardless of where you're from in the US :smalltongue:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

*raises hand* I would be extremely pissed if referred to as a yankee. I have friends who have started fistfights over it.



This may just be me and my friends, but we call Australians "kiwis", because I've found that nothing annoys y'all more then saying your from New Zealand.

...

I very well hope you see the irony in this.

Also all Americans are Yanks to me.
Oh, in most of Latin America, y'all are known USAians, or something along those lines. Because American there just means someone from either North or South America.

[Aedilred]

Are there any for Australians? I was expecting Ocker to be one, but from the sound of things that's an exclusively Australian term.
"Convicts"? :smallbiggrin: Or "ex-cons", I suppose, if we're being polite :smallwink:

[ForzaFiori]

...

I very well hope you see the irony in this.

Also all Americans are Yanks to me.
Oh, in most of Latin America, y'all are known USAians, or something along those lines. Because American there just means someone from either North or South America.

I do. I only call Australians I know "kiwi", as a joke. I wouldn't try it on some random dude. He'd probably go "Crocodile Dundee" on me and pull a Bowie knife. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

One of the problems of translating from English is that English has robbed 4 or 5 languages of vocabulary over the past millennium, creating a very large, highly redundant, vocabulary. Consider the terms we have to describe size in excess of the average. There are the superlatives big, bigger, and biggest, but also large, larger, and largest. There are words on their own like enormous, or gargantuan, or massive. Then there are words like colossal and gigantic. By and large, they are interchangeable, but translating them all as "big equivalent" loses some meaning.

It's a fascinating phenomenon: natives tend to maximize the vocabulary they have at their disposal. If they have two different words for the same thing with initially identical meaning, over time they'll have different associations and nuances about where and how each can be used; the words specialize, so to speak.

Also, it's hilarious how English still, after millenia, has some words with the Latin plural (such as millenium) :smalltongue:

[Aedilred]

Words which are ripped directly from Latin or Greek have tended to maintain their grammar better than those which have a more colloquial origin, because they've been kept in written form by the intelligentsia, and more snobbery pertains to them. Apparently a number of phrases taken from French were "re-Frenchified" relatively recently, presumably to emphasise differences in education level...

[Xuc Xac]

Oh man, that right there? BIG reason to know the local language. My sister had to argue with a cab driver in Spanish when she visited Costa Rica. The guy apparently thought she was just a stupid little helpless American girl who wouldn't realize she was being ripped off. Luckily for her she's both fluent and stubborn.

If you go to a market in Thailand, you'll notice that many items are marked with price tags with both Arabic numerals that foreigners can read and Thai numerals for locals. They don't show the same price.

[Razanir]

The Illiad[/i] and The Odyssey are epic poems in ancient Greek, but trying to read them in English is hard even with a good translation. The same is true of the great English epic poem Beowulf, which was written in an archaic form of English. If you could read them in their original form, the poetry inherent in them would become obvious immediately. In English, the poetry is either stunted and stilted, or ignored completely; either destroys a crucial part of the work.

That is a bit of information I have never encountered before. I guess I need to turn in my Lord of the Rings geek card.:smallredface: Interestingly, we do still have the informal singular second person pronoun, but most people only encounter it in Shakespeare or The Bible.

First part: I doesn't even have to be the original language. I was reading a German Bible A) because few public domain English Bibles have the Apocrypha, and B) LANGUAGE IMMERSION! Anyway, the word to describe the Fruit of Knowledge is "köstlich" It means both costly and delicious. An interesting double meaning.

Second part: Appendix F, Section II. I just checked

[dehro]

I seem to remember that Jeremy Clarkson has a few choice names for Europeans in general, french in particular.. not sure they're forum friendly though..
in fact.. pretty sure they're not.
something funny I've noticed over the years is that immigrants from all over the world who have lived for even just a while in Italy, tend to prefer swearing in Italian...even when they're arguing in their own language.
more than once I've heard Chinese immigrants bicker in Chinese and then drop a few choice insults in whatever dialect they're surrounded by in the area of Italy they live in...same goes for africans..
people from eastern europe, on the other hand, prefer their own language for swearing...at least, those who live in Italy.
personally, I find that italian swearwords work best for me :smallamused:

[Scarlet Knight]

To steal a joke from Jay Leno, you learn foreign languages in order to say in as many countries as possible : "Don't shoot! I'm Canadian!"

[SaintRidley]

While I have heard this argument many times, my experience is that it is mostly promulgated because American's hate teaching English grammar. English grammar and spelling are less convoluted than many like to claim, though they are by no means simple.



It's more the fact that (native) languages are learned differently than secondary (foreign) languages. The way you learn your first language sort of embeds the grammar in you on an intuitive level. It's hard to explain how your language works without having formal training because it's so natural to you. Learning a second language is often the quickest way to give that training and develop that vocabulary.

[Asta Kask]

Because then you can say insult someone in ancient Sumerian and claim that you are really commenting on the weather.

[Slipperychicken]

Because then you can say insult someone in ancient Sumerian and claim that you are really commenting on the weather.

And this is why I sometimes get paranoid when someone says something in another language. Damn foreigners, they give us nothing but insults, cheap labor, and guilt-trips! :smalltongue:


@Australian woman: Well, in the US, we associate Australians with kangaroos, dingos, boomerangs, English-like accents, crocodile-wrestling (because of that one TV show), shouting "CRIKEY!" or "CROIKEY" (as a generic exclamation), penal colonies, and generally being a barren wasteland. So there's usually a name related to one of those things.

(Now you guys are making me feel guilty about not continuing to take a foreign language)

[Scarlet Knight]

Not to mention Foster's, shrimp on the barbie, Nicole Kidman, St. Sinner...wait; why haven't I moved there yet?

[Brother Oni]

Not to mention Foster's, shrimp on the barbie, Nicole Kidman, St. Sinner...wait; why haven't I moved there yet?

All the spiders, crocodiles, jellyfish, snakes, ants and dropbears that are ready, willing and able to kill you if you put a foot wrong?

[Serpentine]

Not to mention Foster's, shrimp on the barbie...
RAWR!
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2010/4/28/1272445619325/Russell-Crowe-in-Gladiato-001.jpg

[The Succubus]

All the spiders, crocodiles, jellyfish, snakes, ants and dropbears that are ready, willing and able to kill you if you put a foot wrong?

Drop bears are easy to deal with. Just position the barbie underneath them and hey presto, steaks now grow on trees. :smallbiggrin:

[dehro]

also, sheilas, which has to be the single funniest way to call a girl a girl..I don't know why but it strikes me as hilarious
P.S. does a generic sheila whose name is not Sheila still require a capitol S?

[Screech-*Lime*]

Having finished 3 years of high school Latin, and entering my 4th, my understanding of Latin has allowed me to write much better in English. Learning a new language broadens your understanding of not just that language, but all others as well.

And knowing Latin allows you to read some of the most beautiful oratory and poetry that exists. You cannot truly understood debate and persuasive speech until you read some Cicero.

It's also an awesome springboard either further back in time that helps learning ancient Greek or forward that allows you to learn any Romance language in half the time it normally takes (Except French. French is impossible.), I can understand a good amount of Spanish and Italian without any training at all, because those languages are, at their core, just Latin for rednecks (no offense meant).