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ExemplarofAvg
2012-08-04, 08:38 PM
This has been a pet project of mine for the last year or so, it got put on the back burners a bit, but I recently found it, cleared the dust and decided to finish it. In the spirit of the Summon Monster Chain and Summon Nature's Ally Chain I decided to make something to summon well, Heroes, originally inspired by Fairy Tail (http://fairytail.wikia.com/wiki/Human_Subordination), I present my version of Human Subordination Magic, SUMMON HERO
I think I just need a critique and maybe someone who is willing to use it and tell me how it goes (Power level-wise)
Summon Hero I
Level: Summoner 1, Bard 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One Summoned Creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons a Hero* (with a Challenge Rating less than One). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of it's abilities. If you can communicate with the hero, by sharing a language, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform some other action.

The Hero appears with Masterwork Versions of the equipment they would have used, the equipment created is merely replicas recreated by the spell and hold none of the other special abilities they may have originally held. The Equipment disappears along with the Hero when the duration of the spell is up. The Hero comes into play with no prior preparation.

A summoned Hero cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature or Hero, nor can they use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Heroes cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.

*A Hero is hereby defined as any LA +0 and no racial HD with Class levels, so long as it fits the Challenge Rating Requirement of the Spell.


Summon Hero II
Level: Summoner 2, Bard 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 1 Hero or 1d3 CR<1 (Challenge Rating less than One) of the same Hero

Summon Hero III
Level: Summoner 3, Bard 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 3 level Hero, 1d3 CR 1 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR<1 (Challenge Rating less than One) Heroes.

Summon Hero IV
Level: Summoner 4, Bard 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 5 level Hero, 1d3 CR 3 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 1 Heroes.

Summon Hero V
Level: Summoner 5, Bard 5, Sorcerer/Wizard 5
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 7 level Hero, 1d3 CR 5 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 3 Heroes.


Summon Hero VI
Level: Summoner 6, Bard 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 6
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 9 level Hero, 1d3 CR 7 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 5 Heroes.

Summon Hero VII
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 7
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 11 level Hero, 1d3 CR 9 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 7 Heroes.

Summon Hero VIII
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 8
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 13 level Hero, 1d3 CR 11 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 9 Heroes.

Summon Hero IX
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 9
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 15 level Hero, 1d3 CR 13 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 11 Heroes.*NOTE*
If you are going to use this, or implement this, stat out your summonable heroes ahead of time and have the DM approve them, I don't have specific stats or a table listed because the options are just that open, I choose not to define what is a hero for you.

Wyntonian
2012-08-04, 10:39 PM
1. What counts as a hero? A humanoid? Can they have PC Class levels?

2. What guidelines does one use for generating stats, equipment, etc?

3. Your spoilers are like Russian dolls. Do you want it like that?

TuggyNE
2012-08-04, 11:04 PM
Summon Hero II
[...]
This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 1 Hero or 1d3 CR>1 (Challenge Rating less than One) of the same Hero

SH II and III have CR>1 instead of CR<1.


If you are going to use this, or implement this, stat out your summonable heroes ahead of time, I don't have specific stats or a table listed because the options are just that open.

This could quite possibly be The Most Flexible Spell In The History Of Ever, depending on how Heroes are statted up. I strongly suggest making some guidelines, because as written it's limited only by what you can imagine.

Spell Component Pouch
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-08-05, 07:41 AM
1. What counts as a hero? A humanoid? Can they have PC Class levels?

2. What guidelines does one use for generating stats, equipment, etc?

3. Your spoilers are like Russian dolls. Do you want it like that?

1. Up to you really.

2. I don't have the foggiest.

3. Yes, it's Spoiler-Ception. Sorry, but it started out as an accident, but then I had to keep it.


SH II and III have CR>1 instead of CR<1.



This could quite possibly be The Most Flexible Spell In The History Of Ever, depending on how Heroes are statted up. I strongly suggest making some guidelines, because as written it's limited only by what you can imagine.

Noted and Fixed, thank you.
And yeah, I'm aware of that, and I didn't want to put guidelines, My logic was so long as the CR base is followed then the spell isn't overpowered and functions well. I can't determine what counts as a hero to some people. I do state that all of the Heroes that you use should be statted up beforehand, and pre-approved by the DM. As far as most flexible, yeah I guess but that's kind of the point, I stripped down the Summon Chains to their bare essentials, built them up as something new and chose not to limit the creativity, or choose for myself what defines a true hero. Although I think Wish/Miracle might be a little bit more flexible in a different way.

Network
2012-08-05, 02:02 PM
These spells can effectively be used to gain free Implosion at a very low level.

A monster with 1/8 HD, 1 in all physical stats, 3 Int, 19 Sag and 1 Cha... and the ability to cast Implosion at-will. :smallbiggrin: Sounds cool, especially considering you don't get Raise Dead before 9th level.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-08-05, 02:31 PM
I'd add a few additional clauses:

The hero attacks physically with basic actions (attack, charge, full attack, combat maneuver, etc). It does not use spells, powers, martial maneuvers, or activated class features unless you spend a swift action directing it to do so.

The hero cannot use any spell with an expensive, unique, or priceless material component or focus, or with an XP cost. The hero also cannot use any spell that you do not currently have available to cast. Any spell that the hero casts requires that you expend a spell or spell slot of equal or greater level. For this purpose, special abilities and class features that duplicate spells count as spells. Spells that the hero casts on itself, with no other targets, are exempt from these rules.

If you wish, you may provide the hero with equipment when you summon it. If you do, that equipment vanishes with the hero when it is destroyed or the spell's duration expires. In the future, the hero is summoned with the provided equipment. Equipment replaced by superior upgrades is lost. You may only provide functional equipment that the hero can use. Artifacts, and certain other powerful or important items (DM discretion), cannot be transferred to the hero and simply fall to the ground when the hero disappears.

This spell can be learned multiple times. Each time the spell is learned, you design a single hero (or a single set of multiple less powerful heroes). Every time you cast a given version of the spell, it summons the same hero or set of heroes.


That knocks out the most serious flexibility, resource-economy, and action-economy issues, I think. It's still quite powerful, though, since you're basically talking either a decent, customizable, upgradable (with items) beatstick/meatshield, or what amounts to a cheap Quicken Spell.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-08-05, 02:33 PM
These spells can effectively be used to gain free Implosion at a very low level.

A monster with 1/8 HD, 1 in all physical stats, 3 Int, 19 Sag and 1 Cha... and the ability to cast Implosion at-will. :smallbiggrin: Sounds cool, especially considering you don't get Raise Dead before 9th level.

Now what monster could that be? My uses of this spell so far include.
Raskar the Destroyer, A Barbarian specialized in destroying things.
Slipshadow the Silent Knife, a Rogue for fun assassinations.
Harold, the Human Tank, he's a Cavalier in full plate to be used as a wall between me and whatever I don't want near me.

Nihilarian
2012-08-05, 02:38 PM
First off, you should really do something about those spoilers. I can see Mundania from the end of that thing.

I'm assuming this is Pathfinder because you reference the Summoner, which is a class from there (and, admittedly, probably from other sources, but you referenced Summon Monster). This class doesn't get 9th level spells, so I'm a bit confused at Summon Hero 7-9 saying that they're added as 7-9th level spells for the Bard and Summoner.

I took a quick glance at the summon monster spells. Summon Monster 5, available at 9th or 10th level, has such beauties on its list as the Bralani Azata (CR 6), Kyton (CR 6) and the Dire Lion (which is... CR 6, with the template). Summon Hero 5 summons CR 7 creatures. Summon Monster 5 is considered a pretty good spell. This summons more powerful creatures who seems to only be limited by your splatbook access and your DM's sanity.

This is a really open ended spell. I mean, really open ended. By that I mean, you don't define anything. What is a Hero? A humanoid creature with class levels, I'm guessing. But what restrictions are there? Are drow noble's available? Templates? What feats do they start with? Do they pop in with all abilities fresh and ready to go, such as spells and Wild Shape? If I summon an archer, how many arrows does he get? Do cavalier's come with their own horse? What about mundane equipment, like lanterns or caltrops? What stats do the characters use? Are they specific, identifiable people? (I'm imagining being confronted by a group of elves armed to the teeth, and then summoning their idol in order to do the whole diplomacy thing). Is it an actual, real person, say, for example if I want to summon my king? This isn't a Conjuration (Summoning) spell, so what happens if the creature dies (after it writes the new will, obviously).

If this works the way I think you want it too, I am now not just an 18th level sorcerer. I am an 18th level sorcerer who can, 3 times per day (more with high charisma!) call up my 15th level Wizard buddy who pops right into battle with all of his spells prepared especially for the occasion, who can blow all of his resources without having to worry about the next battle. Need a tank? I got a tank! Traps getting you down? Don't worry, I know a guy. Need someone to tell a vampire that "no means no"? Have a free cleric.

This spell effectively turns Bards, Summoners and Sorcerer's into tier 1 characters.

EDIT: I'm sorry if I came across as rude, but this spell is seriously broken. I love the idea and I would use the crap out of it, but as it is right now I'd never inflict this spell on a DM.

Network
2012-08-05, 03:10 PM
Now what monster could that be? My uses of this spell so far include.
Raskar the Destroyer, A Barbarian specialized in destroying things.
Slipshadow the Silent Knife, a Rogue for fun assassinations.
Harold, the Human Tank, he's a Cavalier in full plate to be used as a wall between me and whatever I don't want near me.
The Gold Horror is a CR 9 monster with Implosion at will, as written. Granted, his real CR should be higher, but a 11th level wizard can summon one using this spell.

In the Book of Templates, there is also a rule to de-evolve monsters by lowering HD and stats. In can reduce by half the CR of a creature, so we can technically have a CR 5 Gold Horror. A 7th-level wizard with Implosion? Priceless.

The Gold Horror is a subspecie of clockwork horror from Monster Manual II.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-08-05, 03:42 PM
First off, you should really do something about those spoilers. I can see Mundania from the end of that thing.

I'm sorry if I came across as rude, but this spell is seriously broken. I love the idea and I would use the crap out of it, but as it is right now I'd never inflict this spell on a DM.

Haha, yeah, well you go deep enough and Xanth ends up in weird places.
And yeah, I just kept editing the numbers as I popped up the next level, forgetting about the spell cap.
And yeah, I know, it's broken as hell. But I don't know how to limit the summoned Heroes other than CR. I thought about banning casters but some of the summoned monster's and allies have spell-likes and other abilities. I thought about implementing a sort of Hour Zero rule so that nothing was readied or prepared, but that doesn't work well if you do want to summon a caster because the duration does not allow preparation time, personally I wouldn't near instant melee as a caster is wonderful, but I didn't want to limit creativity. Also as far as power level, yeah, it's way High, but I couldn't find a good method to work it out, I have another thread somewhere asking for a good way to determine it.

Now on to the specific examples listed:
Archer Arrows, the Heroes start off with masterwork versions of the basic gear.
Cavalier's have Mount as an ability, so I suppose yes.
Caster's, working on it.

Changes to Implement:
Spell Level Fixes
Better Definition of Hero (Anything with Class Levels)
Hour Zero Ruling.

N.B.
Personally I view this as a spell to summon distinct individuals that you have studied, researched or known. And while it is not the exact creature, (hence why the equipment is not the same) it is a fascimile that can stand in for them in an hour, or (1 round/level) as the case is, of need.

Tvtyrant
2012-08-05, 03:52 PM
I like the idea, but I would probably alter it to summoning heroes with NPC class levels (15 levels with the highest spell). They can give you Adept casting or Warrior combat skills that way, but no brokenly powerful combos.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-08-05, 04:02 PM
I like the idea, but I would probably alter it to summoning heroes with NPC class levels (15 levels with the highest spell). They can give you Adept casting or Warrior combat skills that way, but no brokenly powerful combos.

Sadly, I had never even thought about NPC classes, technically that could work quite well. No messy handling of abilities, still able to do stuff because of feats, nothing huge or special, but nothing awful either. If I use this I could even remove the Hour Zero addendum, because the Adept has at highest level. 5th Level casting and even then the two worst things they have are Baleful Polymorph and Wall of Stone (if it topples).

But I still would prefer to find a way for this to work with PC classes.

Network
2012-08-05, 05:30 PM
But I still would prefer to find a way for this to work with PC classes.


Here are a few suggestions :
* Have it work with class level (instead of CR). Allow only LA +0 race, without any racial HD.
* Have a different maximum level for PC and NPC classes. A PC class should be 1 or 2 spell levels lower.

Madara
2012-08-05, 05:58 PM
I would make it limited to specific heroes (Which you create here) but then have a note saying that a DM can allow custom Heroes at such and such guidelines.

Here's an NPC from my E6 game. You could use his statblock.

James Blu, Commander of the Northern Keep
Human CR 3
XP 800
Medium Humanoid
Fighter level 3 (skill points 24) Fighter/Thief
Init +4; Senses ; Listen +0; Spot +0
DEFENSE
AC 18, Touch 12, flat footed 16 ( Chainmail, Shield, buckler)
(+2 Dex, +5 armor, +1 shield)
hp 19 (3d10+3);
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 20
Melee
Single Attack Rapier +8 (1d6/15-20)
or Axe, Throwing (thrown) +7 (0)
Full Attack
2 Rapier +6 (1d6/15-20)
or Axe, Throwing (thrown) +7 (0) range 0
Space 5ft.; Reach 5
Special Attacks
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 11, Chr 10
Base Attack 3 Grapple 3
Feats
Combat Reflexes: Dex mod additional attacks of opportunity,
Improved Critical: Doubles critical chance of weapon,
Armour Prof Heavy,
Armour Prof Light,
Armour Prof Medium,
Martial Weap Prof,
Shield Proficiency: Can use shields,
Simple Weapon Proficiency,
Tower Shield Proficiency: Can use the tower shield and suffer only normal shield skill penalties,
Two-Weapon Fighting: Get extra attack at -2 to all attacks,
Weapon Finesse: Use DEX instead of STR for melee attack to hit,
Weapon Focus(Rapier): +1 to attack rolls
Skills Climb 0, Intimidate 6, Jump 0, Listen 0, Ride 5, Spot 0, Swim -7
Languages Common
MAGIC ITEMS (max value 2500)
2x Potion of Protection from arrows (10/magic) - (300gp)
Potion of Cure light wounds - (50gp)
Potion of Cure light wounds - (50gp)
+1 Rapier (2000gp)

Obviously you wouldn't have to include the magic items, or you could just have them dissappear if they leave his person.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-08-05, 06:06 PM
Here are a few suggestions :
* Have it work with class level (instead of CR). Allow only LA +0 race, without any racial HD.
* Have a different maximum level for PC and NPC classes. A PC class should be 1 or 2 spell levels lower.

Hmm, I'll implement the Race and Racial HD restriction, but I'm keeping CR, because I need that base 0 for Summon Hero I, also it means I don't need a distinction between PC and NPC classes. And with that, here is the newest, most updated version of the spells.

Summon Hero I
Level: Summoner 1, Bard 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1, Cleric/Oracle 1
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One Summoned Creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons a Hero* (with a Challenge Rating less than One). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of it's abilities. If you can communicate with the hero, by sharing a language, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform some other action.

The Hero appears with Masterwork Versions of the equipment they would have used, the equipment created is merely replicas recreated by the spell and hold none of the other special abilities they may have originally held. The Equipment disappears along with the Hero when the duration of the spell is up. The Hero comes into play with no prior preparation.

A summoned Hero cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature or Hero, nor can they use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Heroes cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.

*A Hero is hereby defined as any LA +0 and no racial HD with Class levels, so long as it fits the Challenge Rating Requirement of the Spell.


Summon Hero II
Level: Summoner 2, Bard 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2, Cleric/Oracle 2
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 1 Hero or 1d3 CR<1 (Challenge Rating less than One) of the same Hero

Summon Hero III
Level: Summoner 3, Bard 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3, Cleric/Oracle 3
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 3 level Hero, 1d3 CR 1 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR<1 (Challenge Rating less than One) Heroes.

Summon Hero IV
Level: Summoner 4, Bard 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4, Cleric/Oracle 4
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 5 level Hero, 1d3 CR 3 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 1 Heroes.

Summon Hero V
Level: Summoner 5, Bard 5, Sorcerer/Wizard 5, Cleric/Oracle 5
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 7 level Hero, 1d3 CR 5 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 3 Heroes.


Summon Hero VI
Level: Summoner 6, Bard 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 6, Cleric/Oracle 6
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 9 level Hero, 1d3 CR 7 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 5 Heroes.

Summon Hero VII
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 7, Cleric/Oracle 7
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 11 level Hero, 1d3 CR 9 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 7 Heroes.

Summon Hero VIII
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 8, Cleric/Oracle 8
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 13 level Hero, 1d3 CR 11 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 9 Heroes.

Summon Hero IX
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 9, Cleric/Oracle 9
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 15 level Hero, 1d3 CR 13 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 11 Heroes.

Nihilarian
2012-08-05, 06:43 PM
Exemplar: There is no such thing as LA in pathfinder. They got rid of it to simplify things.

If I recall correctly, regardless of what your original CR is, taking a level in a class automatically bumps it up to CR 1. So I think your current incarnation of Summon Hero I is useless. Instead, I'd make Summon Hero I only able to summon people with NPC classes. And seriously, HD is so much simpler, if you aren't allowing monsters anyway.

3rd: Here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration) Make your spell a Conjuration (Summoning) spell. That comes prepackaged with a "Summons can't summon, dummy." clause.

4th: Specify that Hero's summoned use these:
Heroic NPCs: The ability scores for a heroic NPC are: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/npc-classes/non-player-characters)

5th: You choose one ability that the summon should have that is not at-will. This ability is full as though the summon had rested. All other non at-will abilities are depleted. If you choose spellcasting, the summon can cast a number of spell levels equal to your caster level.

Mangles
2012-08-05, 06:45 PM
Why did you cut the bard out of the higher level spells, even though they can't get spells that high with the base class, there are PrC's which allow bards to obtain 9th level spells.

Network
2012-08-05, 06:47 PM
Exemplar: There is no such thing as LA in pathfinder. They got rid of it to simplify things.

If I recall correctly, regardless of what your original CR is, taking a level in a class automatically bumps it up to CR 1. So I think your current incarnation of Summon Hero I is useless. Instead, I'd make Summon Hero I only able to summon people with NPC classes. And seriously, HD is so much simpler, if you aren't allowing monsters anyway.
Pathfinder is crap, unfortunately.

NPC classes have a CR equal to their level -1, so its as simple as -1 level for a PC classed character.

Nihilarian
2012-08-05, 06:59 PM
Why did you cut the bard out of the higher level spells, even though they can't get spells that high with the base class, there are PrC's which allow bards to obtain 9th level spells.Are you talking about Sublime Chord? Sublime Chord does not grant you 9th level bard spells because 9th level bard spells do not exist. They grant you 9th level Sorcerer/wizard spells.
Pathfinder is crap, unfortunately.

NPC classes have a CR equal to their level -1, so its as simple as -1 level for a PC classed character.I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, except that you apparently don't like pathfinder? :smallconfused:

The progression would look like this:
SH1: 1, NPC class (1st level)
SH2: 1, PC class (1st level); 1d3, NPC class (1st level)
SH3: 1, PC class (3rd level); 1d3, PC class (1st level); 1d4+1, NPC class (1st level)
SH4: 1, PC class (5th level); 1d3, PC class (3rd level); 1d4+1, PC class (1st level)
SH5: 1, PC class (7th level); 1d3, PC class (5th level); 1d4+1, PC class (3rd level)
SH6: 1, PC class (9th level); 1d3, PC class (7th level); 1d4+1, PC class (5th level)
SH7: 1, PC class (11th level); 1d3, PC class (9th level); 1d4+1, PC class (7th level)
SH8: 1, PC class (13th level); 1d3, PC class (11th level); 1d4+1, PC class (9th level)
SH9: 1, PC class (15th level); 1d3, PC class (13th level); 1d4+1, PC class (11th level)

Network
2012-08-05, 07:14 PM
I blame Pathfinder for not taking into account non-battle bonuses from templates, such as skill bonuses or resurrective immortality. Both things are for me really important to balance the system.
I think some abilities will be very useful for a PC without increasing that much the CR of a creature, such as a huge racial bonus to Disarm devices or the (in)famous power of the succubus, both of them a player can easily abuse.


The progression would look like this:
SH1: 1, NPC class (1st level)
SH2: 1, PC class (1st level); 1d3, NPC class (1st level)
SH3: 1, PC class (3rd level); 1d3, PC class (1st level); 1d4+1, NPC class (1st level)
SH4: 1, PC class (5th level); 1d3, PC class (3rd level); 1d4+1, PC class (1st level)
SH5: 1, PC class (7th level); 1d3, PC class (5th level); 1d4+1, PC class (3rd level)
SH6: 1, PC class (9th level); 1d3, PC class (7th level); 1d4+1, PC class (5th level)
SH7: 1, PC class (11th level); 1d3, PC class (9th level); 1d4+1, PC class (7th level)
SH8: 1, PC class (13th level); 1d3, PC class (11th level); 1d4+1, PC class (9th level)
SH9: 1, PC class (15th level); 1d3, PC class (13th level); 1d4+1, PC class (11th level)
I was thinking of this :
SH1: 1 NPC (1st level)
SH2: 1 PC (1st level); 1d3 NPC (1st level)
SH3: 1 NPC (3rd level); 1 PC (2nd level); 1d3 PC (1st level); 1d4+1 NPC (1st level)
SH4: 1 NPC (5th level); 1 PC (4th level); 1d3 NPC (3rd level); 1d3 PC (2nd level); 1d4+1 PC (1st level)
SH5: 1 NPC (7th level); 1 PC (6th level); 1d3 NPC (5rd level); 1d3 PC (4th level); 1d4+1 PC (3st level)
SH6: 1 NPC (9th level); 1 PC (8th level); 1d3 NPC (7rd level); 1d3 PC (6th level); 1d4+1 PC (5st level)
SH7: 1 NPC (11th level); 1 PC (10th level); 1d3 NPC (9rd level); 1d3 PC (8th level); 1d4+1 PC (7st level)
SH8: 1 NPC (13th level); 1 PC (12th level); 1d3 NPC (11rd level); 1d3 PC (10th level); 1d4+1 PC (9st level)
SH9: 1 NPC (15th level); 1 PC (14th level); 1d3 NPC (13rd level); 1d3 PC (12th level); 1d4+1 PC (11st level)

Nihilarian
2012-08-05, 09:05 PM
Based purely on balance, I'd probably go with yours. The progression looks like crap though. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm waiting on the OP to post before doing anything else.

bobthe6th
2012-08-05, 09:45 PM
for preventing DM madness/psycotic rage... perhpace use a system for summons known? So you get like 1 summon of each level each level you know the spell? or somthing... also, for caster summons, have all summons with a per day reasource reduced to 1/3 its usual quantity.

Amechra
2012-08-05, 11:33 PM
Well, you could always just go with having one PC class level cost the same as 2 NPC levels, kind of like Leadership back in the 3.0 days.

Or, eh, just have it be based off PC levels, but use the CR averages that show up in the other summon spells, which goes:

I=.5
II=1
III=2
IV=3-4
V=4-5
VI=6-7
VII=7-9
VIII=9-11
IX=11-12

In other words, you have been using a CR of WAY TOO HIGH for your balancing.

Gnorman
2012-08-06, 05:19 AM
Well, you could always just go with having one PC class level cost the same as 2 NPC levels, kind of like Leadership back in the 3.0 days.

Or, eh, just have it be based off PC levels, but use the CR averages that show up in the other summon spells, which goes:

I=.5
II=1
III=2
IV=3-4
V=4-5
VI=6-7
VII=7-9
VIII=9-11
IX=11-12

In other words, you have been using a CR of WAY TOO HIGH for your balancing.

Pathfinder's summons top out a little higher than standard 3.5, around CR 13-14. Granted, that's still slightly lower than what's presented here, but just pointing out what the curve is.

As for commentary on the material presented: letting spellcasters summon other spellcasters is usually a good way to break the game into tiny little pieces. Fun if you want to watch your playmates struggle to put them back together or if you like breaking things, not so much fun if you want to play the game.

For example: Summon Hero IX isn't a summoning spell. It's a direct damage spell that does 15d6 to all within a 30 foot radius, and it repeats for the next two rounds, and then it starts throwing fingers of death around. And that's not even close to optimized usage of it. If you're lucky, it's "110d6 damage, save for 25d6, good luck avoiding these five ranged touch attacks because I built my wizard minions with decent Dexterity". Summon Hero IX is also "1d3 Holy Words per round for at least two rounds" or "free resurrection for between one and three allies". One 9th-level spell gets me 2 8th level spells, 3 7th level spells, 4 6th, and so on.

Granted, if you can cast 9th-level spells, you can break the game in a number of other ways, but this just happens to be the most versatile and flexible way to do it. If my wizard knew this spell, he'd never prepare anything else. Just summon the proper minion (ahem, Hero) to deal with the situation.

Nihilarian
2012-08-06, 06:36 AM
That's true. Even if you make it so that it still costs you the spell slot, it still saves you on actions. It's difficult to balance that, since actions are some of the best currency in D&D.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-08-06, 08:36 AM
Good Points are made all around.
I like that there ended up being a lot of problems once I thought I was done. That means that you guys are paying attention, so after overcoming all sorts of issues, I think only one thing remains to be done to vote on which progression you guys think is most suitable a.k.a. within reasonable power level.

Summon Hero I
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Summoner 1, Bard 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1, Cleric/Oracle 1
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One Summoned Creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons a Hero* (with a Challenge Rating less than One). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of it's abilities. If you can communicate with the hero, by sharing a language, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform some other action.

The Hero appears with Masterwork Versions of the equipment they would have used, the equipment created is merely replicas recreated by the spell and hold none of the other special abilities they may have originally held. The Equipment disappears along with the Hero when the duration of the spell is up. The Hero comes into play with no prior preparation.

A summoned Hero cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature or Hero, nor can they use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Heroes cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.

*A Hero is hereby defined as any Race with no racial HD and Class levels, so long as it fits the Challenge Rating Requirement of the Spell.


Summon Hero II
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Summoner 2, Bard 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2, Cleric/Oracle 2
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 1 Hero or 1d3 CR<1 (Challenge Rating less than One) of the same Hero

Summon Hero III
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Summoner 3, Bard 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3, Cleric/Oracle 3
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 3 level Hero, 1d3 CR 1 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR<1 (Challenge Rating less than One) Heroes.

Summon Hero IV
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Summoner 4, Bard 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4, Cleric/Oracle 4
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 5 level Hero, 1d3 CR 3 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 1 Heroes.

Summon Hero V
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Summoner 5, Bard 5, Sorcerer/Wizard 5, Cleric/Oracle 5
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 7 level Hero, 1d3 CR 5 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 3 Heroes.


Summon Hero VI
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Summoner 6, Bard 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 6, Cleric/Oracle 6
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 9 level Hero, 1d3 CR 7 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 5 Heroes.

Summon Hero VII
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 7, Cleric/Oracle 7
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 11 level Hero, 1d3 CR 9 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 7 Heroes.

Summon Hero VIII
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 8, Cleric/Oracle 8
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 13 level Hero, 1d3 CR 11 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 9 Heroes.

Summon Hero IX
School: Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 9, Cleric/Oracle 9
Components: V, S, F (A piece of or some item related to the Hero or Heroes you are summoning)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30ft Apart.
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like Summon Hero I, except you can summon One CR 15 level Hero, 1d3 CR 13 Heroes or 1d4+1 CR 11 Heroes. Networks progression.
SH1: 1 NPC (1st level)
SH2: 1 PC (1st level); 1d3 NPC (1st level)
SH3: 1 NPC (3rd level); 1 PC (2nd level); 1d3 PC (1st level); 1d4+1 NPC (1st level)
SH4: 1 NPC (5th level); 1 PC (4th level); 1d3 NPC (3rd level); 1d3 PC (2nd level); 1d4+1 PC (1st level)
SH5: 1 NPC (7th level); 1 PC (6th level); 1d3 NPC (5rd level); 1d3 PC (4th level); 1d4+1 PC (3st level)
SH6: 1 NPC (9th level); 1 PC (8th level); 1d3 NPC (7rd level); 1d3 PC (6th level); 1d4+1 PC (5st level)
SH7: 1 NPC (11th level); 1 PC (10th level); 1d3 NPC (9rd level); 1d3 PC (8th level); 1d4+1 PC (7st level)
SH8: 1 NPC (13th level); 1 PC (12th level); 1d3 NPC (11rd level); 1d3 PC (10th level); 1d4+1 PC (9st level)
SH9: 1 NPC (15th level); 1 PC (14th level); 1d3 NPC (13rd level); 1d3 PC (12th level); 1d4+1 PC (11st level) or Nihilarian's
SH1: 1, NPC class (1st level)
SH2: 1, PC class (1st level); 1d3, NPC class (1st level)
SH3: 1, PC class (3rd level); 1d3, PC class (1st level); 1d4+1, NPC class (1st level)
SH4: 1, PC class (5th level); 1d3, PC class (3rd level); 1d4+1, PC class (1st level)
SH5: 1, PC class (7th level); 1d3, PC class (5th level); 1d4+1, PC class (3rd level)
SH6: 1, PC class (9th level); 1d3, PC class (7th level); 1d4+1, PC class (5th level)
SH7: 1, PC class (11th level); 1d3, PC class (9th level); 1d4+1, PC class (7th level)
SH8: 1, PC class (13th level); 1d3, PC class (11th level); 1d4+1, PC class (9th level)
SH9: 1, PC class (15th level); 1d3, PC class (13th level); 1d4+1, PC class (11th level) or Amechra's
I=.5
II=1
III=2
IV=3-4
V=4-5
VI=6-7
VII=7-9
VIII=9-11
IX=11-12

Madara
2012-08-06, 09:27 AM
Network's, because you also should be comparing this to other summoning spells of the same level.

Giving straight up PCs is bad, especially since you're allowing them to be any class and any build. The sheer flexibility is already more powerful than any other spell of the same level, so it doesn't need to focus on PC classes.

If you were to make specific builds for it, either one could work.

Amechra
2012-08-06, 11:13 AM
What, you don't even want to consider my progression, which is the actual progression for 3.5?

I am saddened.

Network
2012-08-06, 11:17 AM
What, you don't even want to consider my progression, which is the actual progression for 3.5?

I am saddened.

I vote for Amechra. :smallwink:

ExemplarofAvg
2012-08-06, 12:11 PM
What, you don't even want to consider my progression, which is the actual progression for 3.5?

I am saddened.

Sorry, there were so many posts I missed yours, I apologize.
I'll add it now.

EDIT: Added. Again, sorry, a lot of posts, a lot of words, and I may not have been in the best reading state at the time.

Nihilarian
2012-08-06, 09:07 PM
What, you don't even want to consider my progression, which is the actual progression for 3.5?

I am saddened.Well, this is for pathfinder, not 3.5.

I'm going to reduce my versions power level by alternating 1 level and 2 level gaps between each spell. At Summon Hero 9 you'll end up with a 12th level hero, it'll look prettier than Networks (:smalltongue:) and I don't think it will be overpowered. But I really have to do other stuff right now, back in a bit.

Nihilarian
2012-08-06, 09:23 PM
Updated version.SH1: 1, NPC class (1st level)
SH2: 1, PC class (1st level); 1d3, NPC class (1st level)
SH3: 1, PC class (2nd level); 1d3, PC class (1st level); 1d4+1, NPC class (1st level)
SH4: 1, PC class (4th level); 1d3, PC class (2nd level); 1d4+1, PC class (1st level)
SH5: 1, PC class (6th level); 1d3, PC class (4th level); 1d4+1, PC class (2nd level)
SH6: 1, PC class (7th level); 1d3, PC class (6th level); 1d4+1, PC class (4th level)
SH7: 1, PC class (9th level); 1d3, PC class (7th level); 1d4+1, PC class (6th level)
SH8: 1, PC class (11th level); 1d3, PC class (9th level); 1d4+1, PC class (7th level)
SH9: 1, PC class (12th level); 1d3, PC class (11th level); 1d4+1, PC class (9th level)