MM2 cr issues.

[Kelb_Panthera]

We all know that the cr's for most of the monsters in MM2 are a bit off, but I had a thought.

Are those cr's closer to accurate if you use them to calculate how a given creature will enhance a multiple enemy encounter?

For example, let's take the ethereal slayer. Even though it's listed as cr 12, it'll be handily slaughtered by even one of the most un-optimized of 12th level fighters. I'd even wager a 12th level warrior could take it.

But what happens when we add it to an encounter with, for example, a roper. Now we have a creature that waits until the BFC monster has done a bit of damage, drained some strength and limited the party's mobility a bit, then pops up from nowhere, already in position to flank and attack someone who may already be in trouble.

The DMG puts that at an EL 14 encounter. Does that sound right? What about some of the other creatures in MM2? Is it possible that this was the intent?

Thoughts? Comments?

[roguemetal]

Interesting thought, but I'm not so sure that's right. Some of the encounters are unbalanced, but some are just as balanced as MM or unbalanced in the opposite direction. MM2 is just trouble, and was probably built by people who confused ECL for CR on a regular but inconsistent basis. Most of the problem with the book is the creatures damage output and battle control techniques, which are usually weak and ill inspired.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Interesting thought, but I'm not so sure that's right. Some of the encounters are unbalanced, but some are just as balanced as MM or unbalanced in the opposite direction. MM2 is just trouble, and was probably built by people who confused ECL for CR on a regular but inconsistent basis. Most of the problem with the book is the creatures damage output and battle control techniques, which are usually weak and ill inspired.

I'm aware that some of the creatures are under cr'd. Weirds for example are so much more dangerous than their CR implies, especially encountered on their home-plane.

I was just thinking that maybe at least some of the over cr'd monsters might've been over cr'd intentionally, since they can act very synergistically with other monsters.

[AlanBruce]

I must concur with the above poster. The book has some flawed monsters which weren't given proper attention to CR (manifested through their powers/damage ability/etc).

I do believe an errata was produced a few years ago, fixing the issues contained in that book. You might want to look at that excerpt before calculating the EL you mentioned.

[GenghisDon]

There is a thread here that goes into many of the monsters. Most actually aren't that far off.

The ethereal slayer however, is not one of those. It's aweful. Give it sudden strike +8d6 & now it might be CR 12. It's an ambusher, now it can effectively ambush.

[Amidus Drexel]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046

There's the thread GhengisDon is talking about. I've never used that book very much myself, so I can't say I know how accurate the adjustments they made are.

[awa]

my party of level 13 pcs fought a cr19 famine spirit last night and basically allowed the warlock and the horrible unoptimized and under wealth chain fighter to kill it. the clerics contribution was a single cure light wounds and the sublime cords (me) was some bard song. We found it so unthreating we basically allowed the people with at will abilities to deal with the problem.

looking at mm after the fight indicates its organization means the encounter could have been buffed with some weak undead like ghouls which would have forced the cleric to blow a turning attempt or 2 as the monsters would have fished for 20s.

This is a monster that is so over cr that even with it having a 6 cr advantage an unoptimized party can literally have half the party hang back and watch.

[GenghisDon]

Thanks for the link Amidus Drexel:smallsmile:

The ethereal slayer, after talking a look at it, is flawed even more terribly than I first thought. Adding a sudden strike capability lets it perform it's basic function, but it's SU powers are still rubbish.

I'd increase its effective CL to 16, let it's "dimensional anchor" ability be a swift action (ie effectively a quickened dimensional anchor), perhaps limited to 3/d?.

plane shift, and it's inaccuracy, simply aren't any use to the critter. Replace it with something like "Etherealness (SU) Twice per day the ethereal slayer can cross the planar boundary between the material plane (or an inner plane) & the corresponding location on the ethereal plane (or vica versa). Such travel is "permanent" as it is instantaneous in effect.

It's no phase spider, but it's a threat this way (to some characters; uncanny dodge for the win)

Famine Spirit...the ravenous ghoul. Yeah, it's another fail. I like this concept though, so it's worth salvaging.

[Kelb_Panthera]

my party of level 13 pcs fought a cr19 famine spirit last night and basically allowed the warlock and the horrible unoptimized and under wealth chain fighter to kill it. the clerics contribution was a single cure light wounds and the sublime cords (me) was some bard song. We found it so unthreating we basically allowed the people with at will abilities to deal with the problem.

looking at mm after the fight indicates its organization means the encounter could have been buffed with some weak undead like ghouls which would have forced the cleric to blow a turning attempt or 2 as the monsters would have fished for 20s.

This is a monster that is so over cr that even with it having a 6 cr advantage an unoptimized party can literally have half the party hang back and watch.

Some of these I chalk up to typos. Famine spirit certainly looks a lot like a CR 10. The only thing it's really got going for it are the symbol of pain that'd be near un-saveable at 10 and the massive hp which are only slightly higher than a cr 10 dragon. Any others that're massively off-kilter, in the direction of over-cr'd that is.

[GenghisDon]

It's got too many HD. Unholy toughness needed to be invented to make most HL undead work.

It's got 3.0 scores as well. 3.5 monsters got jacked up attributes. I've got a (target) CR 16 version I'm working on since seeing this post, I'll link to it when it's done.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's got too many HD. Unholy toughness needed to be invented to make most HL undead work.

It's got 3.0 scores as well. 3.5 monsters got jacked up attributes. I've got a (target) CR 16 version I'm working on since seeing this post, I'll link to it when it's done.

MM1 puts the upper limit for a HD at around CR x3. I really do think that famine spirit's CR was a typo. You know how bad WotC is with their editing. It even compares favorably to other CR 10s, except for having massive hp for that level.

[GenghisDon]

yeah, I know the HD limit, but it's got to be in error when applied to high CR critters with special attacks.

CR 20 with 60 HD makes for a save DC of 40 + attribute mod (probably +8-12 more). While I know L20 characters may/can have a counter to any special attack form, I'm not liking where that takes the game. What if the critter above has 2-3 special attack forms? Can even L20 groups be expected to guard vs (effectively) no-save defeat from everything at once? Even combat wise the numbers seem wrong. +20 fighter levels would give +20 BAB & 11 bonus feats, but 40 extra HD gives +20, +30 or +40 BAB, 7 more feats (plus not fighter limited & epic ones), not to mention WAY more HP & much higher saves.

I limit critters thusly: 1.5 CR HD max. The famine spirit version I started earlier is aimed at CR 16 with 24 HD. Perhaps it will be way off the mark, but you can decide when its done I guess.

Much past 1.5 times L/HD I feel attacks, saves, & save DC's simply get too far apart from the PC's. Of course, the way some like to "optimize", perhaps 3CR HD should be the norm for them.:smallamused:

What well designed critters have double or tripple their CR in HD? in 3.5 specificly, I know they didn't have a good handle on it back in 3.0

[Kelb_Panthera]

yeah, I know the HD limit, but it's got to be in error when applied to high CR critters with special attacks.

CR 20 with 60 HD makes for a save DC of 40 + attribute mod (probably +8-12 more). While I know L20 characters may/can have a counter to any special attack form, I'm not liking where that takes the game. What if the critter above has 2-3 special attack forms? Can even L20 groups be expected to guard vs (effectively) no-save defeat from everything at once? Even combat wise the numbers seem wrong. +20 fighter levels would give +20 BAB & 11 bonus feats, but 40 extra HD gives +20, +30 or +40 BAB, 7 more feats (plus not fighter limited & epic ones), not to mention WAY more HP & much higher saves.

I limit critters thusly: 1.5 CR HD max. The famine spirit version I started earlier is aimed at CR 16 with 24 HD. Perhaps it will be way off the mark, but you can decide when its done I guess.

Much past 1.5 times L/HD I feel attacks, saves, & save DC's simply get too far apart from the PC's. Of course, the way some like to "optimize", perhaps 3CR HD should be the norm for them.:smallamused:

What well designed critters have double or tripple their CR in HD? in 3.5 specificly, I know they didn't have a good handle on it back in 3.0

How about a colossal monstrous scorpion? It's closer to 4x CR HD than 3x. I rather doubt that a 12th level party couldn't take it, but it'd be a stiff fight. Likewise the famine spirit only has one special attack that's not even a save-or-suck, it's just kind of annoying, even at the relatively low level of optimization I like to play at. I agree that HD = 3xcr isn't a good idea if the creature has lots of special attacks or particularly dangerous special attacks though.

[GenghisDon]

collosal scorpion (or any of the collosal vermin ) isn't going to meet my definition of "well designed". Tastes may vary, of course.

How does it even come into conflict with PC's? Do they attack it because it's there? Surely it's not interested in (the vast majority) PC's, being 64-128' in size & 125 tons+++ in weight? humans are (less than) .0008 it's size. I suppose a human can eat bugs, by way of comparison.

It also seems quite like a "fly or die" encounter, but I'll admit it is absurdly weak for it's size.

the famine spirit does kill you on a to hit roll of 20 as well (and it's intended to be dead on a critical hit, per it's 3.0 stats). That can be an inconvienience.

yeah, I was also thinking the problem got worse as level increased.

I can see a 3 HD CR 1 critter (like a zombie, say), but it just gets worse with 6 HD for CR 2, 9 HD for CR 3, ect. I'd say some "uber" spells give it (maybe) some feasability later on.

[Kelb_Panthera]

collosal scorpion (or any of the collosal vermin ) isn't going to meet my definition of "well designed". Tastes may vary, of course.

How does it even come into conflict with PC's? Do they attack it because it's there? Surely it's not interested in (the vast majority) PC's, being 64-128' in size & 125 tons+++ in weight? humans are (less than) .0008 it's size. I suppose a human can eat bugs, by way of comparison.

It also seems quite like a "fly or die" encounter, but I'll admit it is absurdly weak for it's size.

the famine spirit does kill you on a to hit roll of 20 as well (and it's intended to be dead on a critical hit, per it's 3.0 stats). That can be an inconvienience.

yeah, I was also thinking the problem got worse as level increased.

I can see a 3 HD CR 1 critter (like a zombie, say), but it just gets worse with 6 HD for CR 2, 9 HD for CR 3, ect. I'd say some "uber" spells give it (maybe) some feasability later on.

The colossal scorpion certainly wouldn't be a random encounter for exactly the reason you suggest, but it could be used in an arena setting, or it could've been summoned by a magical trap, resulting in it being agitated when it sees the players.

I don't see it as a fly or die scenario though. Assuming 4 players, it has the options of either focusing on them one at a time, in which case the wizard blows it to smithereens, unless it grabs him first, though that's hardly a death sentence for his teleporting self, or it ends up grabbing multiple targets and taking the -20 to grapple that makes escaping from its grip reasonable for a fighter or a rogue with escape artist ranks. The save for it's poison sting isn't difficult for a good fort class to make, and the damage on its attacks isn't impressive.

It's tough for a low-op 12th level group, but hardly unbeatable.

You may be right about that vorpal bite though. Instant kill on an average 8.5% of attacks is nasty. (average ac for L10 is 23. Threatens on 19-20[10% of attacks] and confirms on a 4[85% confirmation]. 10% x 85% = 8.5% of attacks are successful critical hits.)

[GenghisDon]

agreed. happy gaming!

[awa]

the fort save on the scorpion is 33
a level 12 good fort class gets +8, assuming an 18 con and +3 resistance then you need an 18 to pass. and if you fail d10 con loss iss going to make the next check all but immposible. Thats not an easy save to make.
also with a +34 to hit it may as well ignore armor

even taking a -20 to grapple it still has +38 extremly to escape artist out of or out grapple at level 12.

By level 12 you can make your self more or less immune to the scorpion flight, fredom of movment, heroes feast but thats means either your completly immune to it or it kills you.