The Gloves Of Endless Javelins

[Mithril Leaf]

I have a few questions about this item and some general D&D material properties. First I should point everyone in the right direction, Magic Item Compendium, page 194. The gloves allow you to create +1 javelins made of force as a free action. Is there a size limit on these javelins? Additionally, what is the weight of items made of force? I believe that these may be the ideal item for a psion who is using telekinetic thrust if those two questions work out favorably.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have a few questions about this item and some general D&D material properties. First I should point everyone in the right direction, Magic Item Compendium, page 194. The gloves allow you to create +1 javelins made of force as a free action. Is there a size limit on these javelins? Additionally, what is the weight of items made of force? I believe that these may be the ideal item for a psion who is using telekinetic thrust if those two questions work out favorably.

Items made of 'force' have no matter and no weight, and thus cannot be the target of Telekenetic Thrust. Besides, they dissipate after the attack is over, so there's really nothing to throw.

[Snowbluff]

Mass isn't energy, so I'd have a hard time imagining objects made of of force weighing anything.

Man, DnD like to mess with physics.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, since it doesn't specify how long it takes to summon a javelin, and it specifies needing to 'activate' the gloves of endless javelins, it will default to a Standard Action for use-activated items. In other words, you just blew the action necessary to use it.

[Greyfeld85]

I would imagine that any javelins created by the item would be the size appropriate for the wearer of the gloves. For example, if the gloves are sized to fit a medium creature, I imagine the javelins it creates are sized for a medium creature as well.

And as far as I know, Force effects don't actually weigh anything.

I'm not sure about the rules concerning free actions and activating magic items, however.

[Mithril Leaf]

Items made of 'force' have no matter and no weight, and thus cannot be the target of Telekenetic Thrust. Besides, they dissipate after the attack is over, so there's really nothing to throw.


When you activate these gloves, a +1 javelin made of pure force appears in your hand.

This would seem to indicate that the javelin is in fact an object, due to traditional javelins being objects.


A javelin created by the gloves lasts until you resolve an attack with it or until the end of your turn, whichever comes first.

This would seem to indicate that they have a staying power of one turn and do in fact exist as objects. Telekinetic thrust only requires that an object exists in order to target it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticThrust.htm) A total of no weight is indeed less than 250 pounds of it. Would this lead one to believe that you could use them for telekinetic thrust?

EDIT:

Also, since it doesn't specify how long it takes to summon a javelin, and it specifies needing to 'activate' the gloves of endless javelins, it will default to a Standard Action for use-activated items. In other words, you just blew the action necessary to use it.

This leads me to believe that you failed a spot check due to the fact that it is clearly stated that creating a javelin is a free action.

[Greyfeld85]

Also, since it doesn't specify how long it takes to summon a javelin, and it specifies needing to 'activate' the gloves of endless javelins, it will default to a Standard Action for use-activated items. In other words, you just blew the action necessary to use it.

The gloves state activation is a free action.

[The Redwolf]

Mass isn't energy, so I'd have a hard time imagining objects made of of force weighing anything.

Man, DnD like to mess with physics.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

Actually mass is energy, that is physics. You can also prove that energy in some forms can have a form of mass, such as when light exerts pressure on objects.

[Greyfeld85]

Normally I would argue that energy can't be targeted as an object, but there are precedents for exceptions, such as a Warlock's glaive invocation, which is treated as a physical weapon, despite simply being a mass of energy.

This is a situation that the rules simply never cover, so it falls squarely into DM Fiat territory. Ultimately, it's up to your DM whether it works or not, but I'd say that it does, since the item clearly indicates that the energy is treated as a specific weapon for the duration of its existence.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd like to thank people for bringing up potential flaws and such thus far, I'd like to get a solid line of reasoning why this does or does not work due to a lack of rule coverage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The gloves state activation is a free action.

Not according to my edition of the MIC.

And because it is made of force, it isn't 'real', and cannot be the target of Telekenetic Thrust.

Use Gauntlet of Infinite Blades instead. It does exactly what you want, it creates a physical object.

[tyckspoon]

Not according to my edition of the MIC.


So.. your edition of the MIC doesn't say Activation: Free (Command)? Or are you ignoring that it directly says it's Free and assuming that the general rule for Command activation over-rides that?

[only1doug]

Not according to my edition of the MIC.


My edition says its the first printing: March 2007

It gives activation: free (command)

[Mithril Leaf]

Not according to my edition of the MIC.

And because it is made of force, it isn't 'real', and cannot be the target of Telekenetic Thrust.

Use Gauntlet of Infinite Blades instead. It does exactly what you want, it creates a physical object.

We seem to have very different MICs then, because mine states that activation of the gloves of endless javelins is a free action using a command. Most people seem to have the same version as me, seeing as a quick google confirms this is indeed the general assumption. Additionally, I don't see what the reality of the javelins has to do with it. A power only has a target, the javelins should be able to be targetted just as psionic disintegrate can target a wall of force. Why shouldn't telekinetic thrust be able to target javelins made of force?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Let's sum up the trick you're trying to pull off here.

You're going to spend 5pp to manifest a power, to which you've effectively added a verbal component, since the glove is activated by command, so that you can make 15 attack rolls at your BAB+ int/cha and do up to 15d6 damage -if- they all hit.

Seems okay to me, but you might run into issues of slowing down the game unless you have 15 d20s to roll all at once.

[only1doug]

So, to me the key question is whether the summoned javelin of force is an object or not...

I'd say that it is, although i can't find anything in RAW that defines what is or isn't an object.

Size wise I'd rule that the gauntlets generate a javelin of appropriate size category for the gauntlet. If you want gargantuan javelins you need to wear gargantuan gauntlets (although again I have no RAW backup for this).

[Mithril Leaf]

Let's sum up the trick you're trying to pull off here.

You're going to spend 5pp to manifest a power, to which you've effectively added a verbal component, since the glove is activated by command, so that you can make 15 attack rolls at your BAB+ int/cha and do up to 15d6 damage -if- they all hit.

Seems okay to me, but you might run into issues of slowing down the game unless you have 15 d20s to roll all at once.

Pretty much. Using a dice roller makes it much easier.

[Greyfeld85]

We seem to have very different MICs then, because mine states that activation of the gloves of endless javelins is a free action using a command. Most people seem to have the same version as me, seeing as a quick google confirms this is indeed the general assumption. Additionally, I don't see what the reality of the javelins has to do with it. A power only has a target, the javelins should be able to be targetted just as psionic disintegrate can target a wall of force. Why shouldn't telekinetic thrust be able to target javelins made of force?

The logic is that energy is not an object, and thus cannot be targeted as an object. I don't think there's any rule anywhere in any 3.X rulebook that confirms or denies this assertion. This is why I stated that this is DM Fiat territory. You should really be asking your DM about his opinion on the matter.

[Snowbluff]

Actually mass is energy, that is physics. You can also prove that energy in some forms can have a form of mass, such as when light exerts pressure on objects.

Wve/Particle duality aside, does this apply to all forms of energy?

[Mithril Leaf]

The logic is that energy is not an object, and thus cannot be targeted as an object. I don't think there's any rule anywhere in any 3.X rulebook that confirms or denies this assertion. This is why I stated that this is DM Fiat territory. You should really be asking your DM about his opinion on the matter.

I was wondering if it would be reasonable before taking it up with my DM. He has faith in the Playground, so if the consensus here is that force object count as object then it should work.

[The Redwolf]

Wve/Particle duality aside, does this apply to all forms of energy?

I don't believe it applies to all energy, but certainly to a lot of them light in particular, there are established methods to determine the amount of pressure and therefore force a source of light is applying to an object. Your statement was that mass is not energy, but I was just trying to clarify that it is, so they really haven't messed with physics much. However, since it says they function as javelins and they're made of energy, I think in this case at least it would work that way. :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Trying to use real world physics in this discussion only accomplishes one thing: the deaths of many cat-girls.

Electricity is the moving of electrons from one atom to another, acid damage is the chemical reaction between the acid and its target, cold is the absence of energy, sonic energy is the movement of particles in a wave pattern, and fire is just highly charged ions and plasma.
Of these, only sound can be said to be truly independent of the matter it effects.

I don't think D&D even calls force an energy type. I'm pretty sure force damage is a category unto itself, like energy damage or weapon damage.

I'm sorry poor kitties. I had to do it to try and prevent further losses. :smallfrown:

[The Redwolf]

Trying to use real world physics in this discussion only accomplishes one thing: the deaths of many cat-girls.

But intellectual conversations about how reality applies to the game are fun...:smallfrown:

[Snowbluff]

I don't think D&D even calls force an energy type. I'm pretty sure force damage is a category unto itself, like energy damage or weapon damage.

I'm sorry poor kitties. I had to do it to try and prevent further losses. :smallfrown:

I am pretty sure Force is an energy type... I'll have to dig to find my proof I had for that.

Sorry, kitties, I'll draw some of you later or something.

[ericgrau]

It's free action activation, which is really handy. You can full attack with them. Furthermore there are 2 gloves. A TWF rapid shot javelin thrower is viable at low-mid levels except that at that point even a dozen masterwork javelins gets expensive and heavy. These gloves do more damage and you don't have to worry about losing 300 gp several times from javelins that go off a cliff or when you flee. 7,000 gp is just the right price point to be acceptable for the mid level build too.

The only problem is what to do when you level up a bit and javelin throwing becomes obsolete. Either rapid shot or TWF rather than both could lead into other builds. You lose an attack but you also lose the -2 so it's not horrible. In the case of TWF the gloves remain a good ranged backup weapon until at very high levels you finally sell them and don't care about the 3,500 gp lost anyway.

That said blowing your gold on non-weapon offensive items like boots of speed, item of dexterity +2 and so on can delay the need for a better magic weapon until something like 12th level or later.

Force may be a damage type but nevertheless I think these particular javelins do physical damage. No different than beaming someone with a block of ice. I could be wrong, but then it might suck because then you might not get your strength bonus added to the damage. You might, but either way it'd be incredibly vague if these javelins don't work like normal weapons.

[Fouredged Sword]

If I was DM I would be sorely tempted to treat the force javelins as +1 Riverine Javelins as that is an example of an item made of "force".

[Mnemnosyne]

Yeah, as Fouredged Sword says, there's already precedent for actual items made out of force: riverine. Therefore, there's no reason not to treat a force javelin as an object.

[Mithril Leaf]

So most of us can agree that these javelins would be an acceptable target for Telekinetic Thrust. Now about the size of them, is there a similar item which rules that they must be appropriately sized for the wearer? If not, is it possible you could make javelins larger than you could wield, but not above the max size creatable?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So most of us can agree that these javelins would be an acceptable target for Telekinetic Thrust. Now about the size of them, is there a similar item which rules that they must be appropriately sized for the wearer? If not, is it possible you could make javelins larger than you could wield, but not above the max size creatable?

Since the item makes no mention of the size of the javelins, I'd think its safe to assume that they're sized for the gloves wearer. Trying to get colossal javelins out of this is probably pushing into cheese territory.

[Mithril Leaf]

Since the item makes no mention of the size of the javelins, I'd think its safe to assume that they're sized for the gloves wearer. Trying to get colossal javelins out of this is probably pushing into cheese territory.

I was thinking large, due to the wording of the Summon Instrument spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonInstrument.htm) which is as close as I could find to a size designated for a conjured, held item. Additionally, you could use a large javelin as a medium character, although penalties would exist. Beyond that would likely be pushing it though.

[Togo]

So... if a force effects create objects, you can just push a wall of force over, or shrink item it for later? I think you're relying on the 'javelin made of pure force' clause.

The other problem is that the javelin specifically lasts until you resolve an attack with it, so you'd need to create 15 different javelins, each as a free action, something the DM is specifically invited to abitrarily limit. Unless I'm misunderstanding your trick here?

Riverine is possibly a poor example, since it is specically water wrapped in a projected force field, rather than pure force.

The javelins should size with the weilder.

Just a question, but are you doing anything here that couldn't be done with a magical holding quiver, quickdraw, and a bundle of wooden javelins?

[Mithril Leaf]

So... if a force effects create objects, you can just push a wall of force over, or shrink item it for later? I think you're relying on the 'javelin made of pure force' clause.

The other problem is that the javelin specifically lasts until you resolve an attack with it, so you'd need to create 15 different javelins, each as a free action, something the DM is specifically invited to abitrarily limit. Unless I'm misunderstanding your trick here?

Riverine is possibly a poor example, since it is specically water wrapped in a projected force field, rather than pure force.

The javelins should size with the weilder.

Just a question, but are you doing anything here that couldn't be done with a magical holding quiver, quickdraw, and a bundle of wooden javelins?

Not expending a feat and having weapons that can hit incorpreal targets? That's about it. Not super cheesy. It's just convinient.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So... if a force effects create objects, you can just push a wall of force over, or shrink item it for later? I think you're relying on the 'javelin made of pure force' clause.

The other problem is that the javelin specifically lasts until you resolve an attack with it, so you'd need to create 15 different javelins, each as a free action, something the DM is specifically invited to abitrarily limit. Unless I'm misunderstanding your trick here?

Riverine is possibly a poor example, since it is specically water wrapped in a projected force field, rather than pure force.

The javelins should size with the weilder.

Just a question, but are you doing anything here that couldn't be done with a magical holding quiver, quickdraw, and a bundle of wooden javelins?

I don't think anyone here has suggested that all force effects create objects, though that is in a sense true. In this particular case, the gloves are creating an actual object, though. If the javelins aren't objects how does the wearer of the gloves throw them? There are no rules associated directly with the gloves to adjudicate this.

Also, the only thing this trick accomplishes that couldn't be done just as easily with actual javelins is targetting incorporeal creatures.

Given the resources that are going into it, I really don't see this as even remotely abusive.

[Greyfeld85]

I don't think anyone here has suggested that all force effects create objects, though that is in a sense true. In this particular case, the gloves are creating an actual object, though. If the javelins aren't objects how does the wearer of the gloves throw them? There are no rules associated directly with the gloves to adjudicate this.

Also, the only thing this trick accomplishes that couldn't be done just as easily with actual javelins is targetting incorporeal creatures.

Given the resources that are going into it, I really don't see this as even remotely abusive.

Not only that, but the damage isn't even especially impressive. With a max of 1 javelin per level, you're only doing 1d6 damage (no STR bonus, per the wording on Telekinetic Thrust) per level as a standard action.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I just realized that this could get nasty on a psychic rogue. 15X sneak attack damage with a single standard action? Youch. Though that is still something that could be accomplished with mundane javelins.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I just realized that this could get nasty on a psychic rogue. 15X sneak attack damage with a single standard action? Youch. Though that is still something that could be accomplished with mundane javelins.

Show me a build which can deliver 15 attacks as a standard action? Furthermore, that may be quickened into a Swift action?

[Tvtyrant]

Show me a build which can deliver 15 attacks as a standard action? Furthermore, that may be quickened into a Swift action?

Ghost builds for one, jumping pouncers for two. It is pretty good, but its been done before.

[Greyfeld85]

Show me a build which can deliver 15 attacks as a standard action? Furthermore, that may be quickened into a Swift action?

Class: Psychic Rogue 15
Feat: Expanded Knowledge (Telekinetic Thrust)
Magic Item: Gloves of Endless Javelins

*Shrugs*

Matter of fact, level 15 is the first point you can actually use this trick, since you can't learn telekinetic thrust until exactly level 15, assuming you don't cheese in an extra feat on levels 13 or 14.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ghost builds for one, jumping pouncers for two. It is pretty good, but its been done before.

For almost zero resources? Any psychic rogue that picks up telekinetic thrust and the gloves of endless javelins can do this. With quicken power it's a swift action. That's just nasty, especially since he can do it as both a standard and a swift action and get 30x sneak attack if his to-hit is high enough, in one turn.

[ericgrau]

More likely 15 of the 30 hit, but ya at 6d6+1 a pop it is a bit crazy. OTOH it's single target so if you have more than 1 target area spells with minor meta-magic will do more total damage.

[Tvtyrant]

For almost zero resources? Any psychic rogue that picks up telekinetic thrust and the gloves of endless javelins can do this. With quicken power it's a swift action. That's just nasty, especially since he can do it as both a standard and a swift action and get 30x sneak attack if his to-hit is high enough, in one turn.

And Pun-Pun can end the game at level 1. Mithril Leaf found a new exploit in the game, but it's no more horrid than the ones we have been dealing with since it came out.

And what do you mean, 0 resources? You are playing a Psychic Rogue, so it takes levels to do. No different than a Ghost is really, or a Windicator.

[Mithril Leaf]

And Pun-Pun can end the game at level 1. Mithril Leaf found a new exploit in the game, but it's no more horrid than the ones we have been dealing with since it came out.

And what do you mean, 0 resources? You are playing a Psychic Rogue, so it takes levels to do. No different than a Ghost is really, or a Windicator.

It's not even especially exploitative. It's a trick that a psychic rogue could do to play the ubercharger game and a way for psions to get autoscaling damage up to manifester level 15 for a 7,000gp investment. It'd be really exploitative if you could make the javelins be of any size, then we'd be tossing around 60d6 damage at manifester level 15. Thanks for the compliment though :smallredface:

[Greyfeld85]

For almost zero resources? Any psychic rogue that picks up telekinetic thrust and the gloves of endless javelins can do this. With quicken power it's a swift action. That's just nasty, especially since he can do it as both a standard and a swift action and get 30x sneak attack if his to-hit is high enough, in one turn.

Unless you're invisible, the second set of attacks wouldn't be granted any sneak attack bonuses, since the first attack tells the enemy your location.

Even then, I'm not entirely sure how many attacks deal sneak attack damage when you full attack from hidden position.

[Tvtyrant]

It's not even especially exploitative. It's a trick that a psychic rogue could do to play the ubercharger game and a way for psions to get autoscaling damage up to manifester level 15 for a 7,000gp investment. It'd be really exploitative if you could make the javelins be of any size, then we'd be tossing around 60d6 damage at manifester level 15. Thanks for the compliment though :smallredface:

I'm honestly impressed :smallbiggrin: At this point I had no idea there were still new exploits left.

[ericgrau]

Greater invisibility or similar is the standard for multi sneak attacks. So the build is missing a sneak attack trigger unless there's a power I didn't notice.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm honestly impressed :smallbiggrin: At this point I had no idea there were still new exploits left.

There's always little things hidden around the less impressive items. Things like throwing spellblade on two weapons, a spiked gauntlet, armor spikes on your chain shirt, on your animated shield, on your dastana, on your OA mirror armor, and so on. A cleric's best investment is +1 spellblade defending armor spikes and shield spikes set to catch dispels.

[Greyfeld85]

Greater invisibility or similar is the standard for multi sneak attacks. So the build is missing a sneak attack trigger unless there's a power I didn't notice.

*Shrugs* I assumed using a hide check, since gems like Compression and Control Light are level 1 powers.

Though by level 15, I'm sure Greater Invisibility on a ring isn't out of the question.

[ericgrau]

Then it certainly wouldn't work on the second volley. Usually it wouldn't even work on the second attack roll but I suppose they're all simultaneous.

Oh ya by level 15 all you need is a ring of blinking duh. Sorry I forgot. That's a typical sneak attack trigger too. At 27 grand it's affordable. So we're up to 34k and a couple feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you're invisible, the second set of attacks wouldn't be granted any sneak attack bonuses, since the first attack tells the enemy your location.

Even then, I'm not entirely sure how many attacks deal sneak attack damage when you full attack from hidden position.

They would on the first round of combat when you're targeting a flat-footed opponent. At 180d6 damage, that particular foe doesn't make it to round two.

I didn't say it was particularly abusive, but it is near-zero resources. One power known and a 7000gp pair of gloves, isn't much investment. Not like an ubercharger that's putting down 4 feats or a war-hulking hurler that's burning through class levels. It's still hp damage, but it's nasty hp damage, for a relatively minor investment if you were going to play a sneak-attacking manifester anyway. Psychic rogue's not the only way to do this ya know. Any character with manifester levels can hurl 5 javelins for the cost of a dorje. That's still an impressive 30d6 for a measly 18k.

[DeusMortuusEst]

So... if a force effects create objects, you can just push a wall of force over, or shrink item it for later?


The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells

So no, you can't. It says so in the rules. But the rules don't say if the javelins, that you treat in every way like an object made out of force (as far as I understand it), are objects made of force.

[Greyfeld85]

They would on the first round of combat when you're targeting a flat-footed opponent. At 180d6 damage, that particular foe doesn't make it to round two.

I didn't say it was particularly abusive, but it is near-zero resources. One power known and a 7000gp pair of gloves, isn't much investment. Not like an ubercharger that's putting down 4 feats or a war-hulking hurler that's burning through class levels. It's still hp damage, but it's nasty hp damage, for a relatively minor investment if you were going to play a sneak-attacking manifester anyway. Psychic rogue's not the only way to do this ya know. Any character with manifester levels can hurl 5 javelins for the cost of a dorje. That's still an impressive 30d6 for a measly 18k.

The maneuver requires the Sneak Attack ability, which other manifesters don't get, unless there's something I'm not aware of.

Well, except the Lurk, but who the hell plays a Lurk?

[Tvtyrant]

And again, anyone using telekinesis can do 60d6 throwing some colossal greatswords at someone.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The maneuver requires the Sneak Attack ability, which other manifesters don't get, unless there's something I'm not aware of.

Well, except the Lurk, but who the hell plays a Lurk?

Multiclass characters. The shadowmind (CAd), a psibond agent with practiced manifester only loses one javelin (CS), Ebon saint only gets one SA die, but there it is (CPsi), and SA isn't the only kind of precision damage this can apply to either. It's a vicious exploit, not broken, but vicious.

[Mithril Leaf]

And again, anyone using telekinesis can do 60d6 throwing some colossal greatswords at someone.

Not true, too heavy. Best to go with Stabaxes from Planar Handbook, best damage to weight ratio. Only 1 lb for a base of 1d6. Even then, it's a best case scenario of 28d6.

[ericgrau]

Large greatswords give 45d6 with telekinesis and a higher attack bonus than telekinetic thrust. Even then it's about 1/3 as much damage as the psychic rogue.

[Gwendol]

The question is, how are the force javelins interacting with the targets? The spell used to power the gloves is magic missile, which is an Evocation (Force) spell. Does this mean that spell resistance applies? It does so for other Evocation (Force) spells like spiritual weapon. Do the javelins ignore miss chance from incorporeality?
I would treat the javelins as spiritual weapons, and would also state they do damage as a medium javelin (since they were created for a medium creature), irrespective of the size of the current glove wielder. It is strange the weapon damage is omitted from the description, as is the fact if the gloves can produce a javelin in each hand, or just the one javelin (but requiring both gloves to be worn).

[Greyfeld85]

The question is, how are the force javelins interacting with the targets? The spell used to power the gloves is magic missile, which is an Evocation (Force) spell. Does this mean that spell resistance applies? It does so for other Evocation (Force) spells like spiritual weapon. Do the javelins ignore miss chance from incorporeality?

Spiritual Weapon specifically states it strikes as a spell rather than a weapon. Specific trumps general, and the gloves never make the distinction one way or the other. Hell the Warlock's Eldritch Glaive specifically deals damage as a weapon (not a spell), which gives just as much weight to the other side of the argument.


It is strange the weapon damage is omitted from the description, as is the fact if the gloves can produce a javelin in each hand, or just the one javelin (but requiring both gloves to be worn).

While it is strange that some key info is left out, I think it's easy to assume the intention of the creator of the item. Size of the javelin is determined by the size of the glove, and you can create a javelin in any hand that's wearing one. It makes sense, and I can't see a reason to believe otherwise.

[Gwendol]

That specification of spiritual weapon is in relation to DR, which I don't touch in my post.

The description of the item doesn't say one or the other, hence my observation. It says the activation makes a +1 javelin appear, which is dissolved at the end of the turn or at the resolution of an attack, whichever comes first. To go from there to TWF with force javelins is not straightforward in my mind.

[animewatcha]

How do you guys get 15 dice of sneak attack at level 15 when psychic rogue gets an extra die every third level instead of second?

[only1doug]

More likely 15 of the 30 hit, but ya at 6d6+1 a pop it is a bit crazy. OTOH it's single target so if you have more than 1 target area spells with minor meta-magic will do more total damage.


How do you guys get 15 dice of sneak attack at level 15 when psychic rogue gets an extra die every third level instead of second?

5d6 sneak attack per weapon, 1d6+1 base damage, 15 weapon strikes as a single standard action (or swift action). 15 x 6d6+1 (or 30x 6d6+1 with a standard + swift).

[manyslayer]

Although it seems to be settled, anyone wanting more weight for the force javelins being objects can look to Disintegrate


The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

[Vizzerdrix]

Shame we can't further enchant the javelins. :smallsigh:

[Darrin]

Shame we can't further enchant the javelins. :smallsigh:

The Stormlord (Complete Divine p. 65) would like a word with you...

[Mithril Leaf]

The real question that remains is how do they deal with SR/DR. Force effects traditionally ignore DR, and a fairly close spell, the orb of force ignores SR. There are other instances which would support the other side I'm sure though.

[Boci]

The real question that remains is how do they deal with SR/DR. Force effects traditionally ignore DR, and a fairly close spell, the orb of force ignores SR. There are other instances which would support the other side I'm sure though.

Since its isn't specified as dealing force damage, it would deal normal weapon damage for a javelin (piercing), but ignore SR.

[Mithril Leaf]

Since its isn't specified as dealing force damage, it would deal normal weapon damage for a javelin (piercing), but ignore SR.

I'd say that a javelin made of force would count as a force effect. This states that all damage dealt by force effects counts as force damage. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_forcedamage&alpha=) Additionally, the orb of force spell creates a force object using conjuration and launches it. This spell deals force damage. Not conclusive, but perhaps worth including.

[Boci]

I'd say that a javelin made of force would count as a force effect.

From a balance perspective that would be too powerful. Ignoring DR and hitting incorporeal creature is adding quite a bit of power to an already useful item. From a RAW perspective, "effect" is never defined, so it could go either way. But unless it is a high optimization game, people are generally going to assume that the javelins are not a force effect just for the sake of balance.

[Mithril Leaf]

From a balance perspective that would be too powerful. Ignoring DR and hitting incorporeal creature is adding quite a bit of power to an already useful item. From a RAW perspective, "effect" is never defined, so it could go either way. But unless it is a high optimization game, people are generally going to assume that the javelins are not a force effect just for the sake of balance.

I never once claimed it was balanced. I'm claiming it's as close to RAW as we've got.

[Boci]

I never once claimed it was balanced. I'm claiming it's as close to RAW as we've got.

I disagree. The fact is, effect is never defined, but, AFAIK, it is only ever used in the context of spell or abilities, never in the context of what a weapon is made of. A flame blade is not called a fire effect for example.

[Mithril Leaf]

I disagree. The fact is, effect is never defined, but, AFAIK, it is only ever used in the context of spell or abilities, never in the context of what a weapon is made of. A flame blade is not called a fire effect for example.

However, we do have an example of an item made of force doing force damage. We have no examples to the contrary thus far.

[Greyfeld85]

I disagree. The fact is, effect is never defined, but, AFAIK, it is only ever used in the context of spell or abilities, never in the context of what a weapon is made of. A flame blade is not called a fire effect for example.

When dealing with RAW, rules must be considered all-inclusive or all-exclusive, unless stipulated otherwise. This is the rule of "specific trumps general." If there is no definition of what an "effect" is, and a rule states that "all damage dealt by force effects deal force damage," you must either rule that everything made of force falls under the heading of "force effects" or none of them do, as there is no rule that stipulates othewise.

And if you state that none of them do, that essentially marks the very existence of force damage null and void.

By process of logical inference, RAW dictates that the lances created by the item in question do, indeed, deal force damage. Whether or not this is balanced is up for debate, but to change this would be a house rule, not RAW.

[Darrin]

The real question that remains is how do they deal with SR/DR. Force effects traditionally ignore DR, and a fairly close spell, the orb of force ignores SR. There are other instances which would support the other side I'm sure though.

That's because "spell effects" bypass DR, and force effects are nearly always the result of some kind of spell.

DR doesn't specifically address what happens when an effect is produced by a magic item rather than a spellcaster, but I think the default would be to treat it as a spell effect, unless the item description specifically says otherwise.

Riverine is a peculiar example. There's no reliable information on how this material is constructed, but it's very difficult to imagine how it would not involve magic or spellcasting. Riverine items are also not identified as magic items (they should be), nor are they identified as [force] effects (again, hard to imagine how they could not be). Neat idea, yes, but epic fail on the implications from a rules standpoint.

[Boci]

When dealing with RAW, rules must be considered all-inclusive or all-exclusive, unless stipulated otherwise. This is the rule of "specific trumps general." If there is no definition of what an "effect" is, and a rule states that "all damage dealt by force effects deal force damage," you must either rule that everything made of force falls under the heading of "force effects" or none of them do, as there is no rule that stipulates othewise.

Or I could rules that force effect apply to things that have prescient as being called out as being effects, combined with the force descriptor.


However, we do have an example of an item made of force doing force damage. We have no examples to the contrary thus far.

Orb of force isn't an object, anymore than seeking ray is.

[Mithril Leaf]

Orb of force isn't an object, anymore than seeking ray is.

Actually, that's precisely what it is. The definition of a conjuration (creation) spell is that it creates an object or creature. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#creation) Since an orb of force is most certainly not a creature, it therefore defaults to object. It's an orb made of force, entirely akin to a javelin made of force.


DR doesn't specifically address what happens when an effect is produced by a magic item rather than a spellcaster, but I think the default would be to treat it as a spell effect, unless the item description specifically says otherwise.

That's precisely what would lead it to ignoring DR. You agree with me then?

[Boci]

Actually, that's precisely what it is. The definition of a conjuration (creation) spell is that it creates an object or creature. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#creation)

Fair enough, I stand corrected.


Since an orb of force is most certainly not a creature, it therefore defaults to object. It's an orb made of force, entirely akin to a javelin made of force.

Nope, because, unless I am wrong again, there are no rules stating that the javelins created are objects. Also, evocation, not conjuration. Big difference.

[Mithril Leaf]

Nope, because, unless I am wrong again, there are no rules stating that the javelins created are objects.

Look at all the previous evidence in the thread. Specifically the wall of force. See that a wall of force is an evocation spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) This is of the same school of magic as The Gloves Of Endless Javelins. Now note that the disintegrate spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) states that the wall of force is an object, and that other such objects made of force exist. These would seem to point towards the javelins being objects, no?

[Greyfeld85]

Or I could rules that force effect apply to things that have prescient as being called out as being effects, combined with the force descriptor.

You could. But it would still be a houserule, not RAW. Which is kinda my point.\

[Boci]

Look at all the previous evidence in the thread. Specifically the wall of force. See that a wall of force is an evocation spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) This is of the same school of magic as The Gloves Of Endless Javelins. Now note that the disintegrate spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) states that the wall of force is an object, and that other such objects made of force exist. These would seem to point towards the javelins being objects, no?

It would point, yes, but pointing isn't enough for RAW. Still, you could make a valid argument for the javelins being force effects, but then wouldn't they be subject to SR? (Since it is an attack and isn't a conjuration).


You could. But it would still be a houserule, not RAW. Which is kinda my point.\

How is that a house rule any more than "anything with the word force in it is a force effect"?

[Greyfeld85]

How is that a house rule any more than "anything with the word force in it is a force effect"?

Because you're creating a rule that includes some effects while excluding others, essentially creating your own "specific" rule to trump the "general" guideline already laid out in the rulebooks.

And no, I'm not going to argue this point any further, because I already know you're going to argue about the specific definition of the term "effect" and how it applies to the core rules. And frankly, I just don't have the energy or patience to have that pedantic of an argument right now.

[Mithril Leaf]

It would point, yes, but pointing isn't enough for RAW. Still, you could make a valid argument for the javelins being force effects, but then wouldn't they be subject to SR? (Since it is an attack and isn't a conjuration).


In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.
From here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance) The gloves don't target the creature, it is a seperate effect. Spell Resistance as a rule of thumb doesn't apply to already existing effects. If telekinetic thrust allowed SR (of the sort that mattered in this case), then that would apply.

EDIT: An analougy would be the summon weapon spell. It doesn't allow spell resistance to dispel it.

[Boci]

Because you're creating a rule that includes some effects while excluding others, essentially creating your own "specific" rule to trump the "general" guideline already laid out in the rulebooks.

And no, I'm not going to argue this point any further, because I already know you're going to argue about the specific definition of the term "effect" and how it applies to the core rules. And frankly, I just don't have the energy or patience to have that pedantic of an argument right now.

Not that it matters, but I wasn't going to. I fine leaving the matter as well.


From here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance) The gloves don't target the creature, it is a seperate effect. Spell Resistance as a rule of thumb doesn't apply to already existing effects. If telekinetic thrust allowed SR (of the sort that mattered in this case), then that would apply.

EDIT: An analougy would be the summon weapon spell. It doesn't allow spell resistance to dispel it.

Nope, an analogy would be spiritual weapon, since they are both evocation. And spiritual weapon allows SR.

[only1doug]

I can't find any RAW to support my arguement but I would say that DR applies normally (so only DR:magic would be bypassed), SR does not (as neither telekinetic thrust nor the gauntlets mention allowing SR for being hit by the Javelins).

DR: I'll go into more detail; the javelin is a created weapon, it is used as a weapon attack to hit normal AC, it doesn't state in the item details that it bypasses DR.

I will add that it is obvious that you are trying to cheese every advantage out of this combo, if I were your GM and you came to me with this I would be starting to throw books at your head right now.

[Mithril Leaf]

I can't find any RAW to support my arguement but I would say that DR applies normally (so only DR:magic would be bypassed), SR does not (as neither telekinetic thrust nor the gauntlets mention allowing SR for being hit by the Javelins).

DR: I'll go into more detail; the javelin is a created weapon, it is used as a weapon attack to hit normal AC, it doesn't state in the item details that it bypasses DR.

I will add that it is obvious that you are trying to cheese every advantage out of this combo, if I were your GM and you came to me with this I would be starting to throw books at your head right now.

It's getting an orb of force effect as a psion for a slight discount. Would Incantrix get books to the head as well? This isn't half as much cheese as a mailman.

[only1doug]

It's getting an orb of force effect as a psion for a slight discount. Would Incantrix get books to the head as well? This isn't half as much cheese as a mailman.

Its getting a javelin as a free action, that you are going to gather 15 of them to shoot at your enemies, twice per round.
The conversation would go like this:
You want gauntlets that summon items so you can shoot 15 of them at your enemies? Ok.
You want the weapons to be larger than normal size categories? sorry no.
You want to do sneak attack damage with them all? Your opportunities will be rare, i'm not going to let you walk all over the campaign by one shotting everything, so either reconsider or expect plenty of precision immune opponents.
You want to bypass all Dr and Sr? Let me just check the books on that one *thwack*
You want to auto kill anything not immune to poison? Let me see your sheet a second *confetti*

[Mithril Leaf]

Its getting a javelin as a free action, that you are going to gather 15 of them to shoot at your enemies, twice per round.
The conversation would go like this:
You want gauntlets that summon items so you can shoot 15 of them at your enemies? Ok.
You want the weapons to be larger than normal size categories? sorry no.
You want to do sneak attack damage with them all? Your opportunities will be rare, i'm not going to let you walk all over the campaign by one shotting everything, so either reconsider or expect plenty of precision immune opponents.
You want to bypass all Dr and Sr? Let me just check the books on that one *thwack*
You want to auto kill anything not immune to poison? Let me see your sheet a second *confetti*

It's entirely reasonable that you personally would not allow this, but I'm not asking about how you play, I'm asking how the theoretical ideal DM which allowed Pun-Pun would rule. Additionally, it's not all that out of place in a higher power game. I can respect that you prefer a certain level of control over your players, but please don't call higher tier games bad wrong fun. Playing brokenly good characters can be fun for the whole family when the whole group is evenly balanced and the DM jacks up the power of enemies accordingly.

Additionally, if we didn't bypass DR, there is very little advantage of using these over colossal stabaxes. The axes would deal more damage overall, but would require that someone, probably the beatstick, carries them.

[Greyfeld85]

It's entirely reasonable that you personally would not allow this, but I'm not asking about how you play, I'm asking how the theoretical ideal DM which allowed Pun-Pun would rule. Additionally, it's not all that out of place in a higher power game. I can respect that you prefer a certain level of control over your players, but please don't call higher tier games bad wrong fun. Playing brokenly good characters can be fun for the whole family when the whole group is evenly balanced and the DM jacks up the power of enemies accordingly.

Additionally, if we didn't bypass DR, there is very little advantage of using these over colossal stabaxes. The axes would deal more damage overall, but would require that someone, probably the beatstick, carries them.

Somebody also mentioned another pair of gloves that do the exact same thing, but creates real weapons instead. Can't recall the name though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Somebody also mentioned another pair of gloves that do the exact same thing, but creates real weapons instead. Can't recall the name though.

Guantlets of endless daggers. Same book.

[Greyfeld85]

Guantlets of endless daggers. Same book.

Only thing I see is Gauntlet of Infinite Blades, which isn't quite the same. It activates on a swift action, and has a limited number of charges per day.

[Igneel]

Only thing I see is Gauntlet of Infinite Blades, which isn't quite the same. It activates on a swift action, and has a limited number of charges per day.

But without using charges creates mundane daggers that last ~3 rounds (afb).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Only thing I see is Gauntlet of Infinite Blades, which isn't quite the same. It activates on a swift action, and has a limited number of charges per day.

I didn't actually look, but the gloves can produce an infinite number of mundane blades. The charges are only used to make the created daggers magical. You're right that it is a swift (mental) activation to use them though.

[Medic!]

Fair warning, I only looked at like, the first and last page of this thread, but I'm not sure why we're using spells to set the benchmark for a force weapon when the benchmark was already set with the Force Bow or Bow of Force or w/e....also in the MIC IIRC.

The arrows shot by a force bow bypass DR, since the damage is force damage, so the javelins should do the same.

If this has already been addressed, then there's only one thing I have to say....free bump?

[only1doug]

It's entirely reasonable that you personally would not allow this, but I'm not asking about how you play,
Yes you did, I made a side comment of not allowing it if I were GM and you addressed that comment in your reply in a fashion that invited amplification.


I'm asking how the theoretical ideal DM which allowed Pun-Pun would rule.
This is the first post where you have mentioned that this is for theoretical optimisation purposes.


Additionally, it's not all that out of place in a higher power game. I can respect that you prefer a certain level of control over your players, but please don't call higher tier games bad wrong fun. Playing brokenly good characters can be fun for the whole family when the whole group is evenly balanced and the DM jacks up the power of enemies accordingly.
Please Indicate where I said it was bad wrong fun for you to do this in your group. I said that I wouldn't allow it, not that it was evil incarnate and you should be condemned for it.


Additionally, if we didn't bypass DR, there is very little advantage of using these over colossal stabaxes. The axes would deal more damage overall, but would require that someone, probably the beatstick, carries them.

and the portability is an advantage, why should we presuppose that someone would be willing to cart around 30 colossal stabaxes?


Fair warning, I only looked at like, the first and last page of this thread, but I'm not sure why we're using spells to set the benchmark for a force weapon when the benchmark was already set with the Force Bow or Bow of Force or w/e....also in the MIC IIRC.

The arrows shot by a force bow bypass DR, since the damage is force damage, so the javelins should do the same.


So there we go, another Item in the magic item compendium sets the precedent, If it is intended to do force damage and therefore bypass DR it will state that fact in the text.

Yes I did interpret the exact opposite fashion to Medic.

[Mithril Leaf]

Please Indicate where I said it was bad wrong fun for you to do this in your group. I said that I wouldn't allow it, not that it was evil incarnate and you should be condemned for it.

You actual said I should be book slapped for attempting it, but a lot of it was my perception. Shall we let bygones be bygones here and return to debate of the item :smallsmile:


So there we go, another Item in the magic item compendium sets the precedent, If it is intended to do force damage and therefore bypass DR it will state that fact in the text.

Yes I did interpret the exact opposite fashion to Medic.

Well, let's examine the exact text, shall we?


A projectile weapon with the force property turns ammunition shot from it into a force attack. These force projectiles automatically overcome damage reduction and suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets, but they don't damage creatures immune to force effects.

This indicates that there is such a thing as a force attack and then proceeds to define it, stating that force attacks suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets and overcome all damage resistance. It also arguably says that projectiles made of force are considered force attacks. This would lend itself to the belief that they are in fact force attacks.

EDIT: I remembered another handy item for this discussion. Hank's energy bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is a magical item that creates arrows of force and then fires them. They are explicitly called out as force effects, despite not being a spell effect. I believe this would invalidate Boci's earlier point if that still matters.

[Togo]

I didn't actually look, but the gloves can produce an infinite number of mundane blades. The charges are only used to make the created daggers magical. You're right that it is a swift (mental) activation to use them though.

Well, it's at least a little ambiguous. The block says that it is a charged item with a swift (mental) action to activate. The text says you can produce daggers as often as you like. Swift actions are limited to once a round...

The last game I played the DM ruled that the gauntlets had two abilities. The ability to expend charges to produce a magical dagger, which was a swift action, and the ability to produce normal daggers, which can be used as often as you like, and is thus a free action.

The advantage of this ruling is that it makes the daggers actually useful, and makes a high level throwing based character actually practical. Without it, the gloves simply aren't very good at doing what they are clearly intended to do.

[only1doug]

You actual said I should be book slapped for attempting it, but a lot of it was my perception. Shall we let bygones be bygones here and return to debate of the item :smallsmile:
Some important qualifiers, but yes lets move on




Well, let's examine the exact text, shall we?
Good plan




This indicates that there is such a thing as a force attack and then proceeds to define it, stating that force attacks suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets and overcome all damage resistance.
Specifically stating that these force attacks...




It also arguably says that projectiles made of force are considered force attacks. This would lend itself to the belief that they are in fact force attacks.
I'd argue that it doesn't, it defines the attacks made by this weapon, specifically that it changes the normal ammunition used into a force attack that deals the same damage and bypasses DR.

See also the Psychokinetic melee and ranged weapon property that adds force damage to weapons, this also specifically bypasses DR and hits incorporeal.




EDIT: I remembered another handy item for this discussion. Hank's energy bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is a magical item that creates arrows of force and then fires them. They are explicitly called out as force effects, despite not being a spell effect. I believe this would invalidate Boci's earlier point if that still matters.
Hank's energy bow is another case again (and badly written, but nm) as it works completely differently from the force weapon property (needs no ammunition to operate, if normal ammunition is used it retains its normal status and no force effect is applied).
Hank's bow specifically states that it can hit incorporeal as the projectiles are force but mentions nothing about bypassing DR.

Of the examples we have looked at the force weapon property states that it bypasses DR, the psychokinetic weapon property states that it bypasses DR, the gauntlets of Endless Javelins do not state that they bypass DR and nor does Hank's bow.

If it doesn't say in the text that it bypasses DR then i see no reason why it should bypass DR.
I'd be more inclined to believe that it bypassed DR if it targetted touch AC, if armour can it then why shouldn't DR? (I know that this is inconsistant with the force weapon property... but its my opinion).


I do agree that force means you can hit incorporeal (haven't changed my opinion on that but i don't know if i said it earlier)

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd argue that it doesn't, it defines the attacks made by this weapon, specifically that it changes the normal ammunition used into a force attack that deals the same damage and bypasses DR.

See also the Psychokinetic melee and ranged weapon property that adds force damage to weapons, this also specifically bypasses DR and hits incorporeal.



Hank's energy bow is another case again (and badly written, but nm) as it works completely differently from the force weapon property (needs no ammunition to operate, if normal ammunition is used it retains its normal status and no force effect is applied).
Hank's bow specifically states that it can hit incorporeal as the projectiles are force but mentions nothing about bypassing DR.

Of the examples we have looked at the force weapon property states that it bypasses DR, the psychokinetic weapon property states that it bypasses DR, the gauntlets of Endless Javelins do not state that they bypass DR and nor does Hank's bow.

If it doesn't say in the text that it bypasses DR then i see no reason why it should bypass DR.
I'd be more inclined to believe that it bypassed DR if it targetted touch AC, if armour can it then why shouldn't DR? (I know that this is inconsistant with the force weapon property... but its my opinion).


I do agree that force means you can hit incorporeal (haven't changed my opinion on that but i don't know if i said it earlier)

Hank's energy bow in fact does ignore DR, as it is defined as a force effect, as per the definition itself. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_forcedamage&alpha=) We must recreate the general from the specific since we lack any general rulings. To do so, we look at the pool of most similar abilities to get the overall idea on how such a thing works. Since Hank's Energy Bow and the Gloves Of Endless Javelins seem fairly close in their methodology, they are a good set of parameters. The Bow does not explicitly bypass DR, as you were so keen to point out. However, by looking at the RAW defined term of a force effect, which is explicitly called out, you can see that it does in fact bypass DR.

The Javelins created are also similar to the force projectiles created by a force bow. These projectiles are explicitly called out as bypassing DR. Additionally, the orb of force spell creates an orb of force that bypasses DR. We are lacking in cases of objects made of force not bypassing DR, but we have several examples of it indeed doing so. Even when not explicitly called out in the text.