Drow Monk Source Material?

[LeroyThad]

I've run into quite a paradox in an Underdark game I'm playing in. You see I want to play a drow monk, and the DM has already approved of it. But of course, drow are naturally chaotic and Monks must be Lawful (and I can't go into battle dancer or any other kind of class because I'm lining myself up for a certain prestige class). Even worst, as a drow Monk following the philosophies and teachings of Lolth we run into this paradox wherein as drow Monk I must follow the teachings of my deity, but those teachings are chaotic, messing with my alignment and therefore, my class. You see the bind I'm in?

I have a version of the 3.5 PHB that says, almost as an aside, that drow have a small but established monk tradition, so there has to be a way to make it work. But I cannot for the life of me find any source material that says anything about drow having monks and how they make it work than one fraction of a sentence in the PHB.

I ask mostly because otherwise I'm going to have trouble roleplaying from a decent backstory. So has anyone read anything anywhere about drow monks?

[eggs]

Drow:
"Alignment: Usually Neutral Evil"

It's a "usually" rather than an "always" and only one alignment step away from a legit Monk option. Compared to elves, who are usually 2 steps away, it seems like a really easy fit.

There's nothing locking a worshipper into the alignment of their deity. Or emulating the deity's behaviors.

I think I'm missing something.

[Twilightwyrm]

Read the Drow of the Underdark supplement if you get a chance, and have not already. There is describes the sort of faction based nature of drow society, which while generally lacking "laws" as such, operates by a number of social conventions and practices. There is no reason, therefore, that a lawful evil monk couldn't play the same game all other lawful evil people tend to, that is to say, obeying the "letter", so to speak, of these societal conventions, using these conventions to their advantage when it benefits them, but doing so in an utterly ruthless and merciless fashion. Basically speaking, it is entirely possible for individual drow to be lawful evil, since lawful doesn't describe simply following laws, but a personal philosophy concerning how to act. Hell, the Dread Fangs of Lolth (a PrC from Drow of the Underdark) are required to be lawful evil, and they are Lolth's elite soldiers, enforcers, and essentially templars (who work closely with her secret police). So go ahead and make a lawful evil drow monk safe in the knowledge that you are no more violating your deity's will than the Dread Fangs, or the drow matriarchs that commonly make use of their services.

[LeroyThad]

Read the Drow of the Underdark supplement if you get a chance...

Yes I've read it, and really enjoyed it. It, and BoVD are some of the most commonly used sources in the game. But my issue is that a Lawful character strictly follows a philosophy. Yes of course that being the very definition of lawful. BUT my issue with it is that Lolth is a Chaotic evil goddess, and her teachings are chaotic evil. So to my own logic, someone who strictly adheres to chaotic evil teachings must be chaotic evil. That's the rub.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes I've read it, and really enjoyed it. It, and BoVD are some of the most commonly used sources in the game. But my issue is that a Lawful character strictly follows a philosophy. Yes of course that being the very definition of lawful. BUT my issue with it is that Lolth is a Chaotic evil goddess, and her teachings are chaotic evil. So to my own logic, someone who strictly adheres to chaotic evil teachings must be chaotic evil. That's the rub.

How's this for a rationalization, since that seems to be what you're looking for:

By stringently following the teachings of Lloth to the letter, I'm sure she's got at least a few written works detailing her will (though I rather doubt they all say exactly the same thing), your character is acting in lawful fashion, in-spite of the fact that the actions that leads him to take would be considered chaotic. That dichotomy is something I'm sure Lloth would approve of.

[Curmudgeon]

You can be a Lawful Evil Monk and be only 1 alignment step away from the usual Drow alignment. You can't also be a Cleric of Lolth, but the restriction on Cleric alignment (within 1 step of their deity's) doesn't apply to other classes.

[LeroyThad]

How's this for a rationalization, since that seems to be what you're looking for:

By stringently following the teachings of Lloth to the letter...

Not a bad rationalization. But no, that's not what I'm looking for. I am looking for source material, like in the title of this thread. A book, a magazine article, something written by a D20 or WotC employee on the matter. I'm looking for lore on monks in drow society. Otherwise I'm just making Law out of Chaos which has much worst implications than loosing a deities favor or going outside of my usual racial alignment.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not a bad rationalization. But no, that's not what I'm looking for. I am looking for source material, like in the title of this thread. A book, a magazine article, something written by a D20 or WotC employee on the matter. I'm looking for lore on monks in drow society. Otherwise I'm just making Law out of Chaos which has much worst implications than loosing a deities favor or going outside of my usual racial alignment.

In that case I think you're SoL (that's not save-or-lose btw). I don't claim to have every source or to have read every dungeon/dragon article, but that's just such a niche thing to be looking for that I seriously doubt that it's out there. Good luck though.

[LeroyThad]

Good luck though.

Yeah I'm probably gonna need it.

[Palanan]

There's one brief passage in Drow of the Underdark that might help: "Some few drow become monks, but the Lolth followers who are lawful enough to pursue such a profession are few and far between."

Not impossibly rare, just very few. Presumably there are hidden cells of drow monks scattered around, enough to sustain a monastic tradition.

Now, I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for, and I think eggs and Curmudgeon have it right. But if you're that concerned about a philosophical conflict with Lolth, why not come up with a very minor member of the drow pantheon who's closer to your preferred alignment?

Create a patron of a near-forgotten drow monastic sect. They're almost certainly persecuted by the majority of drow society, so there's potential for a complicated backstory and the roleplaying to follow.

I wouldn't spend too much time searching for how other people have addressed this problem. Whatever you come up with will be better.
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[Saintheart]

But if you're that concerned about a philosophical conflict with Lolth, why not come up with a very minor member of the drow pantheon who's closer to your preferred alignment?

Create a patron of a near-forgotten drow monastic sect. They're almost certainly persecuted by the majority of drow society, so there's potential for a complicated backstory and the roleplaying to follow.

Vhaeraun, perhaps? He's CE as well, but at least he's opposed to Lloth.

[Palanan]

That's one possibility, although I was thinking more of a patron who might predate the creation of the drow pantheon.

Also, it turns out there's a cult of drow monks described in the Forgotten Realms Underdark, who are power players in a drow metropolis. They're sketched out on p. 180, with an entire paragraph devoted to how their philosophical outlook affects their perspective on the traditional drow matriarchy.

To the OP, this is probably your best bet for finding an official source on drow monks. Only a few paragraphs, but it's a place to start.

[LeroyThad]

Palanan, thank you so much, that really helped. Also I Ctrl+F'd my Drow of the Underdark PDF and the word monk is only mentioned like 5 times. Furthermore, it is not a conflict with my deity that I'm worried about, I think Lolth as a god is easy enough to please. The problem I'm having is logical. Example: How does one move right and left at the same time? The answer of course being it is impossible for a single body to move left and right simultaneously (and don't anyone dare try to get quantum with me or I will take you down ). The same problem is in my alignment how can you be lawful and chaotic simultaneously? The problem is logical in the real world, NOT theological in a fake world.

[Palanan]

Glad I could help with the source material, although I'm afraid I still don't quite grok your quandary of logic.

All I can say is, first, take a look at p. 180 of Underdark, and note in particular that the head of the drow monks is himself LE.

Beyond this, I wouldn't be too concerned. From what I can tell, most of Drow of the Underdark is a contrived and contorted attempt to explain all the various ridiculosities that have been pinned on the drow. Don't let any of that dictate how you run your character, and don't get too hung up on law vs. chaos, especially in the drow context.

If you like, think of it this way. Your drow has chaotic impulses, boiling up from his restless elven blood and his upbringing in the ruthless hothouse of drow society. But, his long years of monastic discipline allow him to master and channel those impulses, just as the unyielding granite walls of a narrow canyon funnel the raging power of the river at its heart. Stone and water: lawful and chaotic: you contain them both.
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[Saintheart]

The same problem is in my alignment how can you be lawful and chaotic simultaneously?

http://www.superherostuff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/joker-heath-ledger.jpg

Supports chaos, goes about it in very methodical, very well-planned-out manner. Lawful and chaotic simultaneously.

[roguemetal]

The same problem is in my alignment how can you be lawful and chaotic simultaneously?

I think you missed what people have written somehow. Your question has been answered in the first few posts.


Drow:
"Alignment: Usually Neutral Evil"

Need the page number? 102 MM

How about from Drow of the Underdark?

"The drow are a highly chaotic, individualistic people, a fact addressed
multiple times throughout this chapter. They worship
a deity who dwells in the Abyss and is a paragon of chaotic evil.
Yet for all that, the Monster Manual gives drow alignment as
“usually neutral evil.”
The truth is, the drow are at least somewhat cooperative with
one another, almost in spite of their own nature. Their ambitions
and desires require that their society remain at least somewhat
stable. They employ few true laws, but they are tightly bound
by traditions and codes, and even if they follow them primarily
out of fear, they follow them nonetheless. It is ironic that a lone
drow is likely to drift toward chaos, but that despite their rivalry
with one another, the presence of multiple drow in a given community
literally forces them into a level of cooperation beyond
what truly chaotic individuals would maintain." -page 10, Drow of the Underdark

Notice the USUALLY part? :smallwink:
Hope that helps.

[only1doug]

Options:

(google tells me) the Chaos Monk (Dragon #355) is, as I recall, a Chaotic aligned Monk variant base class.

Unarmed Swordsage: Monk without so much awful, no real write up so no fixed alignment, needs working out with your GM to determine the actual details.

[LTwerewolf]

An intelligent creature is not typically forced (it's not in the case of drow) to take the alignment of their deity.

[Daftendirekt]

http://www.superherostuff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/joker-heath-ledger.jpg
very well-planned-out manner.

"Do I really look like a man with a plan, Harvey? I don't have a plan. The mob has plans, the cops have plans. you know what I am, Harvey? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught one. I just DO things. I'm a wrench in the gears. I HATE plans. Yours, theirs, everyone's. Maroni has plans, Gordon has plans. Schemers trying to control their worlds. I am not a schemer. I show schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are."

[LeroyThad]

I think you missed what people have written somehow. Your question has been answered in the first few posts.

Poorly, and I am not excepting any of these answers. It comes down ultimately to acting like a chaotic character and calling it lawful, IMPOSSIBLE! Even in the few paragraphs I read from forgotten realms it described the monk order acting like a neutral evil order. That kind of circular weasel reasoning doesn't sit well with me. I understand that Drow monks that follow the teachings of Lolth do exist as written, however the logic is so mangled that neither I nor even WotC or D20 or anyone in my opinion can come up with an adequate explanation, which is not what this post even sought in the first place (it asked for source material, not home brewed rationalizations).

In any case, after much deliberation on the matter, I have decided to drop the character concept for this particular game.

[umbergod]

I would suggest you take the time and money then and go get all the novels based around drow (real drow, not Drizz't)

In the War of the Spider Queen, IIRC one of the characters muses about how structured the society that worship a chaotic deity so completely that it infuses itself into nearly every aspect of their life. The drow society has rules and laws, one of which is the unspoken one of "if you can get away with it without getting caught, it isn't a crime".

In fact, i forget the name, but in Menzoberranzan there was a minor house that sported not only a number of monks, but psions ans psionic warriors as well. They're briefly mentioned in one of the novels I believe.

I would think as a faithful monk to lolth, you'd follow the law of the spiderqueen, which is essentially what a lawful evil drow would boil down to. Obey the laws of those too powerful to ignore, disregard the laws of the weak.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LeroyThad
In any case, after much deliberation on the matter, I have decided to drop the character concept for this particular game.

I've never actually heard of anyone dropping a character because of a conflict of alignment logic.

I was going to reiterate that you not be too worried about alignment issues, because they really shouldn't exert such ironclad control over a character's actions. But, it's your call.



Meanwhile, now I'm interested in a drow monk who is happily lawful neutral and follows a once-persecuted, long-forgotten ur-drow pantheon.

I'm thinking the Sleeping Tiger variant from Dragon 310, which gains Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative as his first two bonus feats. There's gotta be something I could do with that.

[Nerd648]

I would play the character as a drow who wants to enslave and conquer the infidels in Lolth's name. Be a tyrant. Kick those who resist your reign down to their place.

A diabolical monk sounds like fun to play. Kick some face and enjoy it.

[dantiesilva]

You know that the whole entire race is closer to lawful evil then chaotic evil right? Have you read any of the books. They try to destroy other (chaotic) but if there are witnesses left alive they can name the house that attacked and have them kiiled. (lawful) Ruling council defiantly lawful. The most chaotic thing they do is worhip Loth and make love to demons. Hell they even have schools dedicated to their professions. 3.5 is a screwed up system and the alignment axis is the worst part about it. Loth as some mentioned above has a set of rules ,even the clerics follow these, thus they are more lawful then chaotic.

And how do you go left and right at the same time. Walk straight. You are going both ways at once. Or in D&D just cast clone.

[kitcik]

Refluff Dark Moon Disciple.

[hamishspence]

Seeing as "behave chaotically" generally isn't a strict commandment of Chaotic deities- focussing on the Evil aspects of Lolth's dogma, and avoiding the more Chaotic aspects- may be quite viable.

[Skit92]

I'm currently playing a Half-Drow Monk in our 5e campaign (Way of the Shadow). The source material (and what my DM agreed) is they get all the same advantages and disadvantages of the Drow, but without the rigid alignments. Also comes with a pretty harsh backstory. I'm therefore getting to play as Lawful Neutral/Evil depending on if I got my meditation in that day.

[KillianHawkeye]

"Do I really look like a man with a plan, Harvey? I don't have a plan. The mob has plans, the cops have plans. you know what I am, Harvey? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught one. I just DO things. I'm a wrench in the gears. I HATE plans. Yours, theirs, everyone's. Maroni has plans, Gordon has plans. Schemers trying to control their worlds. I am not a schemer. I show schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are."

Despite giving that amazing little speech and even claiming to be "an Agent of Chaos", the Joker actually did make several plans in the movie, and some of them were quite complex with multiple stages all thought up in advance. Don't forget that the Joker is also crazy and a liar. He told the District Attorney exactly what he needed to hear to drive him over the edge of sanity. At the climactic encounter between himself and the Batman, the Joker even refers to Harvey as his "ace in the hole."