What if you could change feats every morning?

[The Rabbler]

Someone mentioned it in passing in another thread, but it really made me think; How much better would martial characters be if they could swap out feats every morning?

I know it would obviate the Chameleon and it could be downright overpowered for item creation feats, so maybe only feats that could be taken as fighter bonus feats would be swapped every morning?

Does the playground have any thoughts on the matter?

[Shpadoinkle]

Well... it would be nice, but it wouldn't really fix anything. Fighters still can't do a damn thing about a Wall of Force, for instance (unless there's some feat I'm not aware of that lets them dispel force effects.)

[Greyfeld85]

All it would really do is change the 1 trick that a fighter could do that day. Which, aside from not being the same as true flexibility, doesn't actually help if you don't know what you're going up against that day.

[Godskook]

Fighters would jump at least a tier, maybe two. The ability to get Spring Attack early game, switch out specializations as you get new weapons(not just weapon choices, but from tripper to grappler, etc), and other handy features would definitely make having 11 extra bonus feats worth a decent bit more.

Especially since an optimized Fighter is decently useful in those areas he specialized in. Need a duelist for a tournament? Jack B. Quick. How about needing to keep goblins off your caster? Tripper. Etc, etc. I think I like this idea, but it needs to be limited in how its used, as loose wording makes it just that much better for casters, who also have a good deal of early feats that would be a bit stronger if they weren't locked-in.

[GenghisDon]

I doubt I'd play such a game, although I certainly recognise the benefits of it. It just makes no sense at all. One gets good at things through years of practice & training; these can't be changed overnight.

I know gamist theory has made this kind of thing (forget a spell, power, skill or whatever for a new one) part of the modern gamer's mindset, but it's never going to sit well with me.

Yes, I'm aware casting spells & flying building sized creatures makes no sense either. Everyone's got their limits I guess.

[Greyfeld85]

Fighters would jump at least a tier, maybe two. The ability to get Spring Attack early game, switch out specializations as you get new weapons(not just weapon choices, but from tripper to grappler, etc), and other handy features would definitely make having 11 extra bonus feats worth a decent bit more.

Especially since an optimized Fighter is decently useful in those areas he specialized in. Need a duelist for a tournament? Jack B. Quick. How about needing to keep goblins off your caster? Tripper. Etc, etc. I think I like this idea, but it needs to be limited in how its used, as loose wording makes it just that much better for casters, who also have a good deal of early feats that would be a bit stronger if they weren't locked-in.

It's only really useful when you can prepare for the day (AKA when the wizard can divine the threats for the day). In any situation where you don't know what's coming (pretty much 95% of the time), it's useless.

Sure, it'll help the Fighter shine in those rare situations when the fighter knows what's coming and has 24 hours to prepare, but that's certainly not worth a full tier, much less two or more.

What grants tiers is on-the-fly versatility; the ability to adapt to your situation without significant prep time.

[Godskook]

I doubt I'd play such a game, although I certainly recognise the benefits of it. It just makes no sense at all. One gets good at things through years of practice & training; these can't be changed overnight.

1.At low levels, this is best explained, especially if limited just to the Fighter Feats, as how basic combat training works. Being good at combat is being good at combat, and it really doesn't matter how you choose to do it. However, sometimes we prepare ourselves poorly to fight in certain ways. Just cause a man has fought with a sword his whole life doesn't mean he's going to use it to his best degree when he's prepared this day for archery.

2.At levels past about lvl 5, we're no longer talking about 'realistic' in the normal sense, as even fighters are capable of challenging olympic athletes by that point, so beyond that, you should expect to see them get a bit ridiculous by 'realistic' standards.


It's only really useful when you can prepare for the day (AKA when the wizard can divine the threats for the day). In any situation where you don't know what's coming (pretty much 95% of the time), it's useless.

I disagree, slightly, in as much as it doesn't take a wizard to know that fighting a Dragon is better done as an archer than a tripper.

Also, many fighter builds(especially optimized ones) are at least useful in combat situations other than the ones they're specc'ed for.


Sure, it'll help the Fighter shine in those rare situations when the fighter knows what's coming and has 24 hours to prepare, but that's certainly not worth a full tier, much less two or more.

1.Fighters are already breathing down the neck of tier 4 without this change.

2.I never even insinuated a 3 tier jump, as that one requires them to compete with classes like Sorcerer and Psion, which they can't.

3.However, an optimized Fighter can actually compete with Warblades, and now doesn't have the issue of "bad feats for match-up" it usually has.


What grants tiers is on-the-fly versatility; the ability to adapt to your situation without significant prep time.

Which is why Factotum is tier 1, rather than vancian casters who must get 9 hours of non-interruption to change anything they're doing.

GOT IT!:smallamused:

What actually grants tiers is a weird mix of versatility, overall power, relevance(healers get gate and heal, but neither really proves relevant in a way that changes their tier), and longevity. Typically, what defines the difference between tiers 1/3/5 and tiers 2/4/6 is versatility(seriously, look at the comparisons that way), while what defines the difference between tier 2 and 3 or tier 4 and 5 is more often access to a niche to call their own. This is why I see the tiers in bracket format moreso than tiers:

Bracket 1: These guys have nukes as class abilities, and can easily break game rules in a multitude of ways(contains tier 1, tier 2, and the wilder(if you don't think the Wilder is tier 2))

Bracket 2: These guys are normally balanced, and rarely need more than a few splat-book bans to suit a particular group that plays with other classes from this bracket(tier 3 and 4)

Bracket 3: These guys have next to nothing, and outside niche builds that are excessively specialized, will have trouble shining in groups of higher brackets.(tier 5 and 6)

So basically, the question comes down to this: Can you see a Fighter being useful and interesting in a group that contains Barbarians and Warblades after this change? For me, yeah, I do.

[Greyfeld85]

I doubt I'd play such a game, although I certainly recognise the benefits of it. It just makes no sense at all. One gets good at things through years of practice & training; these can't be changed overnight.

I know gamist theory has made this kind of thing (forget a spell, power, skill or whatever for a new one) part of the modern gamer's mindset, but it's never going to sit well with me.

Yes, I'm aware casting spells & flying building sized creatures makes no sense either. Everyone's got their limits I guess.

People tend to make the "it's fantasy, it doesn't have to be realistic!!" defense, but such a defense sort of misses the point.

While a game needs balance, a world needs consistency. A set of rules that make sense within the setting of the game give players and characters a sense of continuity and an ability to predict and prepare for logical outcomes within that ruleset. When you allow the rules to change on a whim, it breaks immersion and it breaks continuity, placing the players in a state of confusion and uncertainty about the rules of the world itself.

Not only that, but creating rules that don't mesh with the fluff of the game world is just lazy game design.

[deuxhero]

Honestly? Sorcerers benefit the most, not melee.

They jump straight to tier 1 with any feats (Arcane Discipline, Extra Spell and bloodline feats off the top of my head) that add to their spell list.

[The Rabbler]

People tend to make the "it's fantasy, it doesn't have to be realistic!!" defense, but such a defense sort of misses the point.

While a game needs balance, a world needs consistency. A set of rules that make sense within the setting of the game give players and characters a sense of continuity and an ability to predict and prepare for logical outcomes within that ruleset. When you allow the rules to change on a whim, it breaks immersion and it breaks continuity, placing the players in a state of confusion and uncertainty about the rules of the world itself.

Not only that, but creating rules that don't mesh with the fluff of the game world is just lazy game design.

I suppose it could be fluffed as preparing yourself for a certain style of combat in the morning, but I understand the problem. Would greatly limiting the amount/types of feats that can be swapped out solve this? Metamagic feats and Item Creation feats certainly shouldn't be swappable, but I feel that Weapon Style feats (like weapon focus or TWF), Tactical feats (like Improve Trip or Leap Attack), or even Reserve Spell feats being changeable could make sense in the same way that a Warblade's Weapon Aptitude does.

[Answerer]

It needs to be more often. Like every combat, taking a small amount of time to prepare... or ready, if you will. Perhaps 5 minutes?

[Greyfeld85]

1.Fighters are already breathing down the neck of tier 4 without this change.

No, they aren't. Fighters are solidly tier 5. "Good at one thing, but can't contribute in any other area" is the exact definition of tier 5, and Fighter fits that down to the nuts and bolts.


3.However, an optimized Fighter can actually compete with Warblades, and now doesn't have the issue of "bad feats for match-up" it usually has.

An optimized Fighter can outshine a Warblade in direct damage dealt any day of the week and twice on sundays. But that's not what tiers are about. Tiers are about versatility and the ability to adapt to situations. And in that area, Warblade leaves Fighter in the dust, at any level of optimization.

Being able to take 24 hours to change yourself from one trick to another isn't versatility and adaptation, it's a gimmick.


Which is why Factotum is tier 1, rather than vancian casters who must get 9 hours of non-interruption to change anything they're doing.

GOT IT!:smallamused:

Factotums will never reach the sheer brokenness potential of full progression spellcasters. Ever.

I should also point out that rules-savvy wizards can prepare any spell in their spellbook with only 15 minutes of prep time, as long as they leave a spell slot open of the appropriate level.

[Mithril Leaf]

I always thought being able to change feats every morning was called being a psion?:smallconfused:

[Godskook]

No, they aren't. Fighters are solidly tier 5. "Good at one thing, but can't contribute in any other area" is the exact definition of tier 5, and Fighter fits that down to the nuts and bolts.

Relevant link and quote is relevant:

Tier 4: [Words]

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)



An optimized Fighter can outshine a Warblade in direct damage dealt any day of the week and twice on sundays. But that's not what tiers are about. Tiers are about versatility and the ability to adapt to situations. And in that area, Warblade leaves Fighter in the dust, at any level of optimization.

A melee-spec Warblade and a feat-change Fighter typically spec'ed for melee are told that tomorrow, they'll be facing a dragon. Which one adapts better? If you said Warblade, you'd be wrong.

Granted, I agree that RAW fighter is left in Warblade's dust versatility-wise, but we're not talking about that.


Being able to take 24 hours to change yourself from one trick to another isn't versatility and adaptation, it's a gimmick.

If it counts as versatility with wizards, it counts for versatility with Fighters, you don't get to play favorites in how you judge the value of versatility.


Factotums will never reach the sheer brokenness potential of full progression spellcasters. Ever.

That would be my point exactly.


I should also point out that rules-savvy wizards can prepare any spell in their spellbook with only 15 minutes of prep time, as long as they leave a spell slot open of the appropriate level.

Right and I should point out that without that 15 minutes of prep time, said spell slots are(with some exception) useless.

[Than]

Psychic Reformation can be used on others. Even fighters.

[Mithril Leaf]

Psychic Reformation can be used on others. Even fighters.

Ah right, having a psion in the party. Not just being a psion.

[Voidling]

I was thinking along these lines, in the Eberron Campaign Setting you can use a system called "action points" which lets you add dice to D20 and other stuff. You can use action points to give players a feat for a combat round.

I would like a system where each encounter a fighters and other low tier class would gain x amount of action points (base on class level) to turn into feats they could use. It would give fighters a lot of dynamic options and makes wall spikes, acid pits, stone pilers and dead drops great opportunities for fun game play. Also well as let them re-train warrior feats during down time and when they level.

I guess the system would be a lot like tome of blades but with out the magic aspect.

[Psyren]

Incarnum... *salivates*

And psionics for that matter...

[Person_Man]

When I design homebrew, I always try to make my classes able to re-pick their spells/powers/whatever at least once per day. It's just good game design. You don't want to punish players for making bad choices. You want to encourage players to try a variety of different tactics. And it's BORING to use the exact same combo over and over again for months or years in every combat.

I think it would help many classes, and would allow it for any Tier 4 or lower build. (And maybe Tier 3, if other players are playing Tier 1 and 2 effectively). Though as Psyren and others point out, you would have to be careful of allowing it for Feats which were designed for a game where you can't reselect Feats, such as Open Chakra, Expanded Knowledge, and various metamagic Feats.

[Sutremaine]

I know gamist theory has made this kind of thing (forget a spell, power, skill or whatever for a new one) part of the modern gamer's mindset, but it's never going to sit well with me.
Bolding mine.

Isn't this what any non-spontaneous caster does every day?

[nightwyrm]

Bolding mine.

Isn't this what any non-spontaneous caster does every day?

Yes, before 3e. 3e refluffed the "memorization" of older editions into "preping a spell" like loading a gun with bullets.

Of course, it's just as easy to refluff retraining a feat/skill not as "forgetting how to do X" if a person is willing.

[Greyfeld85]

Yes, before 3e. 3e refluffed the "memorization" of older editions into "preping a spell" like loading a gun with bullets.

Of course, it's just as easy to refluff retraining a feat/skill not as "forgetting how to do X" if a person is willing.

That's a little harder to justify for anything outside of prepared spellcasters. Hell, it's even hard to justify for spontaneous spellcasters, and for the same reason. Literally being unable to perform an action that you were able to perform multiple times the day before has no logical or reasonable explanation, unless you're willing to use "it's magic, so it doesn't have to make sense" as a way to suspend disbelieve.

Or your character is suffering severe head trauma.

[Godskook]

That's a little harder to justify for anything outside of prepared spellcasters. Hell, it's even hard to justify for spontaneous spellcasters, and for the same reason. Literally being unable to perform an action that you were able to perform multiple times the day before has no logical or reasonable explanation, unless you're willing to use "it's magic, so it doesn't have to make sense" as a way to suspend disbelieve.

Or your character is suffering severe head trauma.

In the real world, in ancient times, mages cast many fireballs*, but these spells took time and effort to cast, and required significant prep-work to do properly.

How exactly does going from 'actually real' to 'fantasy realistic' make that unbelievable?

*I am, of course, speaking of the old-fashioned pre-science grenade.

[Psyren]

Initially I hated Vancian because the fluff of forgetting how to do something you had done many times before that day made no sense. But the "pre-casting" fluff is much more palatable to me, and also meshes better with divine and spontaneous casting.

[willpell]

Someone mentioned it in passing in another thread, but it really made me think; How much better would martial characters be if they could swap out feats every morning?

I think I was the someone in question, though possibly not the only one. I just suggested it again on a LFQW thread, but it might have come up in my absurdly popular Warlocks thread first.

[Person_Man]

Here's another fluff solution: Spend some time reading ancient mythology, especially non-Western mythology.

The Force, spiritual energy which bends reality, chakra energy which can be shaped in various ways, consensus reality which can be changed with the force of belief, capricious gods who struggle with each other to reshape the world, or whatever.

Heroes Journey = Awesome Powers which comport to your journey, whatever it may be.

[Greyfeld85]

In the real world, in ancient times, mages cast many fireballs*, but these spells took time and effort to cast, and required significant prep-work to do properly.

How exactly does going from 'actually real' to 'fantasy realistic' make that unbelievable?

*I am, of course, speaking of the old-fashioned pre-science grenade.

You're comparing the wrong part.

It's more akin to, "Sorry, I can't make any more grenades, but I can make these handy step ladders! What? Yes, of course I still have the materials I need to make grenades. Why can't I make any more? Well, honestly, I went to be last night, and when I woke up, I found out that I've forgotten how."

Losing a known spell for a different known spell (or feat for feat, in the case of this thread) isn't like running out of materials. It's like completely forgetting how to do something YOU JUST DID YESTERDAY. "Yes, I know I was able to grip my sword with both hands and hit really hard with it yesterday. But for some reason since I picked up this bow, I've just plumb forgot how to do it. I'm sure I'll remember by tomorrow, don't worry. Incidentally, you don't need me to be able to shoot arrows again tomorrow, do you?"

There is literally no logical explanation for it. It's a gamist rule, created in a poor attempt to add flexibility to a class with non-flexible class features.

[Psyren]

There is literally no logical explanation for it.

There is if you divorce "preparation" from "memorization." I'm not one to defend Vancian, but I could feasibly see how the preparation period represents "pre-casting" a spell, so it can be used more practically later in the day. So for a wizard, casting a fireball actually takes a lot of work - he just does most of that work in the morning, and when he's actually ready to use it he only needs a less-than-six-seconds hand motion, pinch of guano and snippet of arcane speech.

Spontaneous casting works because, through accident of birth, certain individuals are able to convince the universe (or fool it) into believing they had done their prep-work. Thus, high Charisma is essential to most spontaneous casters. And Divine casting works by entreating some extranormal power to cast the spell through you (or simply to do the prep work as a wizard would, in the Archivist's case.)

This removes the biggest problem with explaining Vancian, i.e. why caster would forget how to do something they've already done several times. In this case, it's not the knowledge that's gone, the wizard simply needs to perform the lengthy pre-casting phase again (which he can only do when his mind is fresh from sleep.)

[Greyfeld85]

There is if you divorce "preparation" from "memorization." I'm not one to defend Vancian, but I could feasibly see how the preparation period represents "pre-casting" a spell, so it can be used more practically later in the day. So for a wizard, casting a fireball actually takes a lot of work - he just does most of that work in the morning, and when he's actually ready to use it he only needs a less-than-six-seconds hand motion, pinch of guano and snippet of arcane speech.

I'm not talking about preparation, I'm talking about spontaneous spellcasting, where the spells come from an inner power, rather than methodical prep time. It gets even more ridiculous when you try to apply it to feats.


Spontaneous casting works because, through accident of birth, certain individuals are able to convince the universe (or fool it) into believing they had done their prep-work. Thus, high Charisma is essential to most spontaneous casters. And Divine casting works by entreating some extranormal power to cast the spell through you (or simply to do the prep work as a wizard would, in the Archivist's case.)

That's not how spontaneous casting works, and never has been. Putting aside that Charisma isn't the only spellcasting stat for spontaneous spellcasting (beguilers and favored souls just off the top of my head), there are multiple traditions within spontaneous spellcasting, and each of them receives their spells from a different source. And not one of them involves "tricking the universe into giving them magic."

[Suddo]

It needs to be more often. Like every combat, taking a small amount of time to prepare... or ready, if you will. Perhaps 5 minutes?

No make it faster. You may swap any or all bonus feats as a swift action.

Only allow these feats to be the fighter feats and maybe only give them every 3 (and maybe give others that aren't swapable at other levels).

This can be explained with stances and allows the fighter to become a combat monster. A 9th level (3 feats if you use my guidelines above) fighter can swap between a two weapon fighter, spiked chain tripper, grappler, shield specialist and a couple of other things. The trick to truly make this idea powerful is to pick up things like Binding with your normal feats (Incarnum too if you can).
The upper limit is still there as there is no feat to say fly but a fighter now becomes a monster at lower levels and can actually hold his own against a barbarian.

Edit: If you want to limit it make it be like only (BAB / 3) + Int Mod times per combat. Though this will piss off everyone who thinks warblades are not realistic.

[Greyfeld85]

No make it faster. You may swap any or all bonus feats as a swift action.

Only allow these feats to be the fighter feats and maybe only give them every 3 (and maybe give others that aren't swapable at other levels).

This can be explained with stances and allows the fighter to become a combat monster. A 9th level (3 feats if you use my guidelines above) fighter can swap between a two weapon fighter, spiked chain tripper, grappler, shield specialist and a couple of other things. The trick to truly make this idea powerful is to pick up things like Binding with your normal feats (Incarnum too if you can).
The upper limit is still there as there is no feat to say fly but a fighter now becomes a monster at lower levels and can actually hold his own against a barbarian.

While that's an interesting idea, you have to take into account some of the feats available this way.

For example, what happens when you can swap in Martial Study as a swift action?

[Suddo]

While that's an interesting idea, you have to take into account some of the feats available this way.

For example, what happens when you can swap in Martial Study as a swift action?

I just added this to my post as you posted this post:
If you want to limit it make it be like only (BAB / 3) + Int Mod times per combat. Though this will piss off everyone who thinks warblades are not realistic.

It limits martial study/stance gaming but in the end if you just removed martial study/stance from the "swappable bonus fighter feats" list then you're fine.
I mean being able to switch between the basic fighting styles on the fly and as you gain different weapons is a really cool concept.

[Venger]

Someone mentioned it in passing in another thread, but it really made me think; How much better would martial characters be if they could swap out feats every morning?

I know it would obviate the Chameleon and it could be downright overpowered for item creation feats, so maybe only feats that could be taken as fighter bonus feats would be swapped every morning?

Does the playground have any thoughts on the matter?

the chameleon is a worthwhile class because of other things, though the free-floating feat is certainly nice.

"swapping out" item creation feats is hardly overpowered, you still have to pay with your xp, so it's not like people will do it willy-nilly.

martial characters would have the exact same problems, but it would be kind of fun to be a tripper one day and an archer the next or what have you if you were playing on hard mode

[jaybird]

It isn't unreasonable that you need to perform different warm-up routines for different combat styles.

[Sutremaine]

Yes, before 3e. 3e refluffed the "memorization" of older editions into "preping a spell" like loading a gun with bullets.
But as far as I can see, those two things are mechanically the same, resulting in a caster with spells X Y and Z on Tuesday evening throwing them out and changing them for spells A B and C on Wednesday morning.

If it's unrealistic and therefore unreasonable in-game for a person to be able/unable to use a particular mundane feat* from day to day, why is it fine for a prepared caster to be able/unable to use a particular spell from day to day? Is it because their knowledge of magic encompasses all spells they have the ability to cast? If so, why can't a fighter (not a Fighter necessarily) have a knowledge of combat techniques that encompasses all feats they have the ability to use?

Is it because feats are more powerful than spells? :smalltongue:

*'mundane' feats being loosely defined as ones that do something for every class, whether or not that thing is useful. For example, Natural Spell does nothing for most classes, whereas Weapon Focus (dagger) does, even if most classes have no use for the feat.

[Answerer]

No make it faster. You may swap any or all bonus feats as a swift action.
:smallfrown: Someone finally responded to my post... and didn't get the joke.

[Suddo]

:smallfrown: Someone finally responded to my post... and didn't get the joke.

I'm sorry. But that idea is one I've thrown around for a while. But sense it would require the player to know a lot of books and such I never really went with it (especially because I like ToB just fine).

[Answerer]

I'm sorry. But that idea is one I've thrown around for a while. But sense it would require the player to know a lot of books and such I never really went with it (especially because I like ToB just fine).
That was exactly my joke, though. I commented that they needed to swap out (or "ready") things more often, and that it should only take 5 minutes to do.

Initiators take 5 minutes to ready their maneuvers.

[Suddo]

That was exactly my joke, though. I commented that they needed to swap out (or "ready") things more often, and that it should only take 5 minutes to do.

Initiators take 5 minutes to ready their maneuvers.

I thought that's what the joke was but I always for get how long that takes.

[morkendi]

I could see it made into a feat. Call it versatile fighter. Once per day you ready your feats, but you would have to keep this as one of them which ties up a slot. Then you could do an improved one that lets you do in out of combat phase, but that would tie up two slots as the first would be a prerequisite. It wouldn't break anything and would give fighters a little versitillity.

[The Rabbler]

I could see it made into a feat. Call it versatile fighter. Once per day you ready your feats, but you would have to keep this as one of them which ties up a slot. Then you could do an improved one that lets you do in out of combat phase, but that would tie up two slots as the first would be a prerequisite. It wouldn't break anything and would give fighters a little versitillity.

it would need to have some requirements to keep any class from taking it at will. Maybe requires fighter 4?

[Hylas]

It just makes no sense at all. One gets good at things through years of practice & training; these can't be changed overnight.

This is why I always liked how sorcerers worked compared to clerics and wizards.

Both wizards and clerics can solve whatever problem by changing their spells, their core class abilities, the next day. A sorcerer would have to get a wand or a scroll or do something else resourceful, like any other person.

[willpell]

There is literally no logical explanation for it. It's a gamist rule, created in a poor attempt to add flexibility to a class with non-flexible class features.

The character of Joscelin in "Kushiel's Dart" provides a good example of the kind of flavor that works for either a TOB initiator or this fighter variant. He performs a training drill every day in which he practices the forms of his combat style until they are second nature to him, enabling him to react faster than thought. The whole discipline is so instinctive that when he's threatened with death unless he teaches the style to his captor, he literally can't break it down enough to give the captor a starting point; the whole thing is just second nature to him. It'd be very possible to combine this concept with having multiple sets of these maneuvers, where you choose one to practice that morning and your nerves just lock-in to the pattern so that you can't consciously choose to defy the drill you've set yourself to act out automatically.