Problem with Domain Clerics

[Milo v3]

This is technically about a homebrew idea I have, but I think it fits better in roleplaying as here the responses will likely be more useful.

The idea itself is a different version of the Cleric Class, one dependent on his Domains. Instead of having a cleric know every single spell on the list. He has two domains from his deity, and one other domain of his choice. And he gets all his spells from these as spell lists. As you can probably guess the domains themselves will have to be expanded.

The aim is to make it so that Clerics for the god of healing will heal. A good cleric of the fire good might not be able to heal. This has the effect of making the god you worship actually matter for more than nine extra spells on your spell list.

My problem is determining how many spells each domains has, should I restrict it to cleric only spells and a few from other classes? Or make each domain have every spell which fits that Domain regardless of which class it comes from? Or something I haven't even considered?

[Psyren]

If you go by theme you risk running into the Ardent problem where some mantles domains have more options than others and thus get shafted. I would keep the themes loose and pick a hard number of spells for each. One thing I would suggest is try to have at least two spells of each level per domain so they have more choice of what to prepare, i.e. let them choose from 6 spells for each spell level instead of 3.

Also, this system will make some domains more desirable. For instance, if clerics can't use spell completion items except for the spells of their domains, Magic will grow in value as it provides more options.

[Slipperychicken]

What if you tried the Spontaneous Cleric variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)? Each Cleric can only learn so many spells, so some might not be able to heal. Domains need to be picked a bit more carefully, since each spell known matters. If you really wanted to shoehorn Clerics into archetypes, you could pre-select spell lists for each god.


Ex. Spontaneous Cleric with Healing Domain gets the Cure X line without spending spells known. Cleric with Fire Domain gets Fire spells, but needs to use his limited spells known if he wants to heal too.

[Milo v3]

If you go by theme you risk running into the Ardent problem where some mantles domains have more options than others and thus get shafted. I would keep the themes loose and pick a hard number of spells for each. One thing I would suggest is try to have at least two spells of each level per domain so they have more choice of what to prepare, i.e. let them choose from 6 spells for each spell level instead of 3.

Also, this system will make some domains more desirable. For instance, if clerics can't use spell completion items except for the spells of their domains, Magic will grow in value as it provides more options.

Perhaps I should aim for five or four spells per level for each domain?


What if you tried the Spontaneous Cleric variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)? Each Cleric can only learn so many spells, so some might not be able to heal. Domains need to be picked a bit more carefully, since each spell known matters. If you really wanted to shoehorn Clerics into archetypes, you could pre-select spell lists for each god.


Ex. Spontaneous Cleric with Healing Domain gets the Cure X line without spending spells known. Cleric with Fire Domain gets Fire spells, but needs to use his limited spells known if he wants to heal too.

Spontaneous casters still get every single cleric spell to choose from. Thus they still have a huge amount of choice, without thought of what god you worship.

Also my campaign has over twenty deities in it, I'm not making a spell list for every single one of them.

[Slipperychicken]

Also my campaign has over twenty deities in it, I'm not making a spell list for every single one of them.

Maybe you could allow each Cleric to cast spells from every domain their God would give, but no others. That would force them into a theme, without needing to write up a whole list.

[Milo v3]

Maybe you could allow each Cleric to cast spells from every domain their God would give, but no others. That would force them into a theme, without needing to write up a whole list.

Different gods have different numbers of domains, this would mean certain clerics would have tonnes of spells while others only have a tiny amount.

[Pyromancer999]

Sounds like a good enough idea. I'd recommend taking Planar Domains into account though. These domains have two spells of each level, and are meant to count as two domains, so they should be treated as such.

@Psyren: Don't know what you mean by there being less spells in some domains than others, with the exception being planar domains. All domains have one spell of each level, unlike mantles, so there shouldn't be any problem with one cleric having more spells than another of equal level.

[Milo v3]

Sounds like a good enough idea. I'd recommend taking Planar Domains into account though. These domains have two spells of each level, and are meant to count as two domains, so they should be treated as such.

@Psyren: Don't know what you mean by there being less spells in some domains than others, with the exception being planar domains. All domains have one spell of each level, unlike mantles, so there shouldn't be any problem with one cleric having more spells than another of equal level.

I'm going to make the domains have more spells, as these are the only spells the cleric will get. So it wont be just one or two spells for each level.

[pffh]

How about giving the cleric access to more domains as he levels. Say he starts with two and then gains a new one every 4 levels (5, 9, 13, 17).

[Slipperychicken]

Different gods have different numbers of domains, this would mean certain clerics would have tonnes of spells while others only have a tiny amount.

Perhaps each cleric would choose a set number (5-7 range?) of domains from their god's list to cast from. You could fluff it as embracing/emphasizing different parts or interpretations of the faith.

[Milo v3]

How about giving the cleric access to more domains as he levels. Say he starts with two and then gains a new one every 4 levels (5, 9, 13, 17).
Wouldn't that diminish the point of having a limited spell list?


Perhaps each cleric would choose a set number (5-7 range?) of domains from their god's list to cast from. You could fluff it as embracing/emphasizing different parts or interpretations of the faith.

As it is, the cleric gains 2 domains from his deity and one of his choice.

[NeoSeraphi]

The problem here is that you're going to cut off emergency healing as a viable tactic, unless your party divine caster is either A) a druid or B) a cleric with the Healing Domain.

In this situation, the Healing Domain functions as a "domain tax", similar to the favored soul (which Pathfinder thoughtfully avoided by just going ahead and giving their oracle all cure spells known for free).

People like being able to heal when the chips are down. There are dozens of threads that will tell you that in-combat healing is not an optimal strategy, but that doesn't mean you should punish a player who wants to do it by forcing him to sacrifice other options for it. Healing is a part of working together as a group and the character who is willing to spend daily resources in order to help the group as a whole should be rewarded and encouraged.

So the way, I see it, you have two options here. You can either give clerics every cure spell known for free, and then make the Healing Domain into an anti-status ailment domain with important spells like remove fear, remove paralysis, and remove curse (along with heal and mass heal, making it very attractive to someone who wants to be able to heal effectively), or you can bump a druid's cure and heal progression up to the cleric's and give druids mass heal as a 9th level spell.

For everything else, it's fine. The cleric spell list is kind of dull and terrible anyway, the domains are what really make it interesting (in my opinion).

[Slipperychicken]

As it is, the cleric gains 2 domains from his deity and one of his choice.

What I meant was the larger number of domains would constitute the Cleric's entire spell list. They should probably only get granted powers from two, though.

[Hylas]

I actually started working on the exact thing you are proposing, but never finished it.

What I did was make clerics into spontaneous casters. Each cleric would have a total of 4 "domains" and 3 of them would come from their god. Each domain was then customized to have about 3 spells per level on average with lower level spells usually being more abundant than higher level spells. There was also a universal domain to fill up the 4th domain slot for general spells that each cleric would have regardless of god, like summon monster, bless, curse, and consecrate. The universal domain would NOT include healing spells or divination other than the very lowest leveled ones.

The end result is that a cleric would have spontaneous access to more spells than any other caster, but they wouldn't always be useful or "the best spells to have" for that level like a sorcerer would select. However all of their spells were very thematic.

Other fun things I was working on was each god having their own day of the week where their clerics would have spells count as being 1 level lower, to represent their god being extra powerful that day. There was also a day where their god would be weaker so spells would be 1 level higher to balance it out. You could also give out free metamagic or something else if you'd rather, but you need something else to counter out the temporary power boost.

I never finished it because the spell list is very long and I wanted every arcane and divine spell to be available to a cleric of some type.

[HunterOfJello]

I would instead build an Archivist with the Spontaneous Summoner feat from CD. It allows you to convert any spell into a Summon Nature's Ally spell of the same level. The feat does have the limitation that you can only convert a number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier, but if you boost that up a bit you should be fine (it is one of your 2 spellcasting stats anyway).

If you don't want to miss out on spontaneous healing/wounding, you can take the equivalent feat(s) for that too.


It's also worth noting that in many ways the Summon Nature's Ally spell line is superior to Summon Monster. They obtain many of the better summons earlier, like the crocodile.

[willpell]

I've considered this kind of idea myself, though for the moment it's too big a change. If wanting to make clerics more different, the low-hanging fruit is simply to say that each cleric's spell list consists entirely and exclusively of the spells contained in all of your god's domains, two of which you specialize in enough to get their granted power and auto-access to 1 spell per day from between them, and the rest you pray for and prepare normally, instead of having the entire cleric list. This makes playing a cleric easier since you have fewer spells to read and memorize, and it means that if your god doesn't have the Healing domain, you won't be a healbot. (It would be wise however to add that domain to several more of the standard gods who currently take CLWs for granted...or you might just make Cures and Inflicts an exception due to their sponcastable status. Personally I would also rule that everyone gets Spiritual Weapon just because it's cool, but that's probably going overboard.)

[Milo v3]

The problem here is that you're going to cut off emergency healing as a viable tactic, unless your party divine caster is either A) a druid or B) a cleric with the Healing Domain.

In this situation, the Healing Domain functions as a "domain tax", similar to the favored soul (which Pathfinder thoughtfully avoided by just going ahead and giving their oracle all cure spells known for free).

People like being able to heal when the chips are down. There are dozens of threads that will tell you that in-combat healing is not an optimal strategy, but that doesn't mean you should punish a player who wants to do it by forcing him to sacrifice other options for it. Healing is a part of working together as a group and the character who is willing to spend daily resources in order to help the group as a whole should be rewarded and encouraged.

So the way, I see it, you have two options here. You can either give clerics every cure spell known for free, and then make the Healing Domain into an anti-status ailment domain with important spells like remove fear, remove paralysis, and remove curse (along with heal and mass heal, making it very attractive to someone who wants to be able to heal effectively), or you can bump a druid's cure and heal progression up to the cleric's and give druids mass heal as a 9th level spell.

For everything else, it's fine. The cleric spell list is kind of dull and terrible anyway, the domains are what really make it interesting (in my opinion).

I was planning on making the Healing Domains Anti-Status Affliction spells. If I don't then it would only grant one spell per level on average. Also each cleric has the ability to channel energy, which types you can chanel is determined by your domains (Fire Domain allows for Fire Damage, Air Domain allows for Electricity). But also some will have Positive or Negative energy as its energy damage, and thus allow clerics to still have a little healing if they want without having to take Healing as a tax.


What I meant was the larger number of domains would constitute the Cleric's entire spell list. They should probably only get granted powers from two, though.
With mine you don't get Domain Powers. Instead each has a Minor Domain Gift, Domain Gift, and Major Domain Gift. At level five, you gain the Minor Domain Gift of one domain. At level ten you gain the Domain Gift of the domain you previously selected, and all your other domains Minor Domain Gifts. At level fifteen you gain the Major Domain Gift of the domain you previously selected, and all your other domains Domain Gifts.


I actually started working on the exact thing you are proposing, but never finished it.

What I did was make clerics into spontaneous casters. Each cleric would have a total of 4 "domains" and 3 of them would come from their god. Each domain was then customized to have about 3 spells per level on average with lower level spells usually being more abundant than higher level spells. There was also a universal domain to fill up the 4th domain slot for general spells that each cleric would have regardless of god, like summon monster, bless, curse, and consecrate. The universal domain would NOT include healing spells or divination other than the very lowest leveled ones.

The end result is that a cleric would have spontaneous access to more spells than any other caster, but they wouldn't always be useful or "the best spells to have" for that level like a sorcerer would select. However all of their spells were very thematic.

Other fun things I was working on was each god having their own day of the week where their clerics would have spells count as being 1 level lower, to represent their god being extra powerful that day. There was also a day where their god would be weaker so spells would be 1 level higher to balance it out. You could also give out free metamagic or something else if you'd rather, but you need something else to counter out the temporary power boost.

I never finished it because the spell list is very long and I wanted every arcane and divine spell to be available to a cleric of some type.

I like that day idea, though it wouldn't work in my main setting, it is an interesting idea. Might try and implement it in my Sanguine Interest setting.

Also I have finished the Cleric class itself, I just haven't made the domains.



I would instead build an Archivist with the Spontaneous Summoner feat from CD. It allows you to convert any spell into a Summon Nature's Ally spell of the same level. The feat does have the limitation that you can only convert a number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier, but if you boost that up a bit you should be fine (it is one of your 2 spellcasting stats anyway).

If you don't want to miss out on spontaneous healing/wounding, you can take the equivalent feat(s) for that too.


It's also worth noting that in many ways the Summon Nature's Ally spell line is superior to Summon Monster. They obtain many of the better summons earlier, like the crocodile.


I'm not trying to create a summoner or spontaneous caster.... So I'm not sure how your suggestion would help...

[Milo v3]

I've considered this kind of idea myself, though for the moment it's too big a change. If wanting to make clerics more different, the low-hanging fruit is simply to say that each cleric's spell list consists entirely and exclusively of the spells contained in all of your god's domains, two of which you specialize in enough to get their granted power and auto-access to 1 spell per day from between them, and the rest you pray for and prepare normally, instead of having the entire cleric list. This makes playing a cleric easier since you have fewer spells to read and memorize, and it means that if your god doesn't have the Healing domain, you won't be a healbot. (It would be wise however to add that domain to several more of the standard gods who currently take CLWs for granted...or you might just make Cures and Inflicts an exception due to their sponcastable status. Personally I would also rule that everyone gets Spiritual Weapon just because it's cool, but that's probably going overboard.)

Strangely every cleric does gain a spiritual weapon ability of sorts, though it is more infuse a weapon with the power of your deity than summoning a magic weapon. Also I was thinking you gain all your gods domains, but that would make some clerics have tiny spell lists while others have huge.

[Andorax]

Dragon 311 did the "domain spontanious cleric" thing as an official cleric variant...the Evangelist.

2 domains (regular ones with 9 spells) at 1st, one additional every 5. They can also choose a few spells known of their own...some customizability, but not a ton. Roughly sorcerer-level spell slots available.

It seems to do a solid job of making the war god clerics distinct from the healing god clerics, if that's what you're aiming for.

[Milo v3]

Dragon 311 did the "domain spontanious cleric" thing as an official cleric variant...the Evangelist.

2 domains (regular ones with 9 spells) at 1st, one additional every 5. They can also choose a few spells known of their own...some customizability, but not a ton. Roughly sorcerer-level spell slots available.

It seems to do a solid job of making the war god clerics distinct from the healing god clerics, if that's what you're aiming for.

I really don't want this to be spontaneous. Also, here is the class, Domains still have to be finished. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251979)

[Doktor Per]

What desires you are expressing regarding the Cleric class has been handled by Ernir's excellent Vancian to Psionic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002) brew, with nifty new stuff tossed in. No two clerics should feel alike (unless they have a similar life philosophy, share a deity and such).

[Milo v3]

What desires you are expressing regarding the Cleric class has been handled by Ernir's excellent Vancian to Psionic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002) brew, with nifty new stuff tossed in. No two clerics should feel alike (unless they have a similar life philosophy, share a deity and such).

I don't really want to use a new magic system. Especially when I'm making one myself.

[ngilop]

Just do what I did and take the old Cleric Spheres from 2nd ed and move them over that way a cleric only knows spells that relate to his geities portfolio. its actually a HUGE balancing factor in cleric-ness

[Milo v3]

Just do what I did and take the old Cleric Spheres from 2nd ed and move them over that way a cleric only knows spells that relate to his geities portfolio. its actually a HUGE balancing factor in cleric-ness

2.0 Edition was before my time so I have no idea what your taking about.

[TuggyNE]

I don't really want to use a new magic system. Especially when I'm making one myself.

I was about to make much the same suggestion, except that I would have emphasized adapting Ernir's solution to your goals (rather than lifting it wholesale). Previous solutions in the same design space, even if they can't be used verbatim, can provide useful insights for study.

[Milo v3]

I was about to make much the same suggestion, except that I would have emphasized adapting Ernir's solution to your goals (rather than lifting it wholesale). Previous solutions in the same design space, even if they can't be used verbatim, can provide useful insights for study.

I do plan to look the magic system over, as you say it can give me some insight.

[ngilop]

2.0 Edition was before my time so I have no idea what your taking about.

2nd edition did the very same thing you are thinking fo doing with clerics each cleric has a set number of 'spheres' (which became stremalien and turned into domains in 3rd) that they had access too with lesser (up to 3rd level spells) and greater access ( all the spells) in those spheres.

there were something like 25-ish spheres total and a cleric of a greater dity usaually had access to 10 or so greater spheres and 6 or so lesser spheres.

[Hylas]

2nd edition did the very same thing you are thinking fo doing with clerics each cleric has a set number of 'spheres' (which became stremalien and turned into domains in 3rd) that they had access too with lesser (up to 3rd level spells) and greater access ( all the spells) in those spheres.

there were something like 25-ish spheres total and a cleric of a greater dity usaually had access to 10 or so greater spheres and 6 or so lesser spheres.

How did leveling affect sphere availability?

[willpell]

Dragon 311 did the "domain spontanious cleric" thing as an official cleric variant...the Evangelist.

2 domains (regular ones with 9 spells) at 1st, one additional every 5. They can also choose a few spells known of their own...some customizability, but not a ton. Roughly sorcerer-level spell slots available.

Sounds a lot like an Ardent, only Vancian instead of points-based.

Was this included in the Dragon Compendium or any similar book? Or is it exclusive to that one issue of the mag?

[Duke of URL]

Oddly enough, I'm working on something just like what is being suggested.

The Boundless Horizons Cleric is already a little more dependent on his domains, as they dictate most of his class features, what spells he can spontaneously cast (not jamming everyone into the cure/inflict box). and which creatures he can turn and/or rebuke.

We're also actively working on a spontaneous divine caster -- at the moment it's looking like having a limited number of selectable spells known per level, but in addition to that, she gets three domains (including the associated powers and turn/rebuke ability) and adds the spells from those domains to her spells known list.

[Milo v3]

Oddly enough, I'm working on something just like what is being suggested.

The Boundless Horizons Cleric is already a little more dependent on his domains, as they dictate most of his class features, what spells he can spontaneously cast (not jamming everyone into the cure/inflict box). and which creatures he can turn and/or rebuke.

We're also actively working on a spontaneous divine caster -- at the moment it's looking like having a limited number of selectable spells known per level, but in addition to that, she gets three domains (including the associated powers and turn/rebuke ability) and adds the spells from those domains to her spells known list.

For my cleric the following a determined by Domains:
Entire Spell List
Channel Divinity
Turning and/or rebuking
Holy Water
Minor Domain Gifts
Domain Gifts
Major Domain Gifts.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Moved to Homebrew where it belongs, only to find that the OP already created another version in Homebrew. Thread locked.