Third eye dampening vs Maximized spells

[shaga]

So what happens when a maximize spell, lets say fireball, meets a character with a third eye dampening (MiC 141)??
The feat (maximize) says:
"All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. A maximized spell deals maximum damage, cures the maximum number of hit points, affects the maximum number of targets, etc., as appropriate. For example, a maximized fireball deals 6 points of damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 60 points of damage at 10th caster level)"

The last part specifically "For example, a maximized fireball deals 6 points of damage per caster level" seems to remove any variable numeric effects, so it seems that a third eye dampening would not effect such a spell.

On the other hand even if they are maximized, the spell does have variable numeric effects and the item says it affects them... so I am left confused. Even if we say both affect the spell, then what goes first and what goes second? If the feat goes first and then the item, we have a greatly reduced maximize fireball from an item that doesn't cost much vs a feat that costs +3 spell slots. If the items power goes first and then the feat, we have a unaffected spell?

I house ruled this situation on my last session, by going the middle way. I ruled that the caster had to roll the damage of his fireball, instead of using the maximum damage. The players agreed but I also agreed I would look into it and find what the true rules are.

[AntiTrust]

A maximized fireball is no longer variable, it can only do one damage which is max. I'd say the third eye dampening owner is just screwed that time. --$0.02

[candycorn]

Damage dealt is different from damage taken.

For example: A warrior swings a greatsword, dealing 27 damage. His opponent is a demon, with DR 10. The Kyton takes 17 damage.

A wizard casts a fireball, dealing 32 damage.
One enemy in the area has no defenses, and fails his save, taking 32 damage.
One enemy has no defenses, but passes his save, taking 16 damage.
One enemy has a Fire Resist spell active, granting Fire Resist 20. He fails his save, taking 12 damage.
One enemy has a Fire Resist spell active, granting Fire Resist 20. He passes his save, taking no damage.
One enemy uses a third eye dampening, and fails his save. He takes 10 damage.
The final enemy uses a third eye dampening, and passes his save. He takes 5 damage.

Now the damage that the fireball dealt never changed. Each person in the area took a different amount of damage, however.

Maximize automatically sets variable effects to their highest value when determining damage dealt. They are still technically variable effects, however.

Third Eye sets the damage taken to the minimum possible result of the variable effect.

[shaga]

[QUOTE=candycorn;13679118
Third Eye sets the damage taken to the minimum possible result of the variable effect.[/QUOTE]

Actually the third eye dampening says nothing about damage taken. It says "You can activate a third eye dampening to reduce all variable numeric effects of the next power, psi-like ability, spell, or spell-like ability that affects you to the minimum value"
It doesn't say "damage taken" anywhere and only mentions that it affects only you if the power/spell is an area/multiple target spell/power.

[Gwendol]

I don't think you'll find some specific ruling on this particular example and that it will depend on DM ruling. That said, I agree with Candycorn: that the spell has been maximized does not deter from the fact that the damage is described by dice and not a set number. The item is useable once a day only, so just chuck a second fireball in.

[LTwerewolf]

Maximize specifically states it removes the variable, and third eye specifically states it uses the lowest variation. 6-6 damage per lvl means third eye would take the lower number, 6, as it's variable. Maximize isn't really the best metamagic anyhow, so if they're taking that, there's usually not much to worry about. Third eye dampening is especially potent when they're using empower (which on average is equal or better than maximize otherwise.)

[Lapak]

I don't think I buy the 'removes variable factor' argument. If that were true, you couldn't use both Empower and Maximize on a spell, and I don't think anyone has argued against that.

If I were ruling it, I'd probably apply the effects in order, which would mean that Dampening trumps Maximize: the Maximize sets the variable effects to max until that spell hits the dampening field by affecting the Third Eye user, at which point the variable effects get reset to minimum.

[LTwerewolf]

Empower/maximize ends up being about the order of operations. Empower first, then maximize. With third eye, the maximize is being used first.

In effect, you're suggesting that third eye completely negates maximize, whereas it wouldn't negate the effect of anything else (just make them weaker).

[Khedrac]

Empower/maximize ends up being about the order of operations. Empower first, then maximize.
Err no, if that was true the empower damage would be maximised which it specifically is not (you roll damage and halve it for the empower portion, adding that to the maximised amount).

As for Maximise + 3rd Eye Dampen I have no idea and would discuss with my players/DM if it arose.

[jaybird]

I'd say it just negates Maximise, meaning you have to roll damage as normal for the spell.

[Ashtagon]

I'd say it just negates Maximise, meaning you have to roll damage as normal for the spell.

It's not strict RAW, but I'd go along with it. A "Maximise Spell" hitting a "Minimise Spell" effect results in a normal spell.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

By Raw, Maximize does not "remove the variable numeric effect" it maximizes it, so it still exists and could be minimized. This use of the dampening effect isn't broken, it's optimal.

Rather than a feat and spell slot cost let's look at a lesser rod of metamagic which costs 14,000gp and has three daily uses while the dampening eye costs 2,500gp for one charge per day so it costs a little more than half what one charge of the rod is worth, needs to be activated, and takes up a slot. Gibbing a Maximized spell is a niche situation that makes the eye very good, otherwise it's just ok, that seems very working as intended.

[Downysole]

Empower/maximize ends up being about the order of operations. Empower first, then maximize. With third eye, the maximize is being used first.

Actually, this is specifically called out in the PHB if you turn the page after reading maximize...

"An empowered, maximized fireball cast by a 15th-level wizard deals points of damage equal to 60 plus one half of 10d6."

Therefore, the operation doesn't matter. Empower does not take you up to 15*6, no matter the order of operations.