Multiclass Specialist Conjurer Variant and Cleric?

[EliteChoboHax]

Would that be possible? To aquire all of the Specialist Conjurer Variants, giving him spontaneous summons and then flipping to straight cleric 19 or some prestige class?

Basically, i need to know if those granted abilities from the specialist conjurer would work for casting the cleric summons? My GM has banned the druid from the game, so im trying to mimic one in the spontaneous summon department and i feel a cleric would be alot more useful to the group compared to an actual wizard - We dont have any kind of healing power and magic items are not obtainable in any way shy of discovering them from monsters and such

[eggs]

They do, but Divine Metamagic (Rapid Spell), Dragon Below+Summoner domains and Spontaneous Domain PHB2 variant might be more efficient.

[EliteChoboHax]

All im giving up is 1 level for the wizard - Im trying to avoid spending any feats on it, as i also intend to pick the focus conjuration and augment summoning as well as Zen Archery, since we are playinga steampunk'ish setting with pistols and rifles and such as well

In what way would that other variant be more efficient and when would it start to kick in? M character will start with 3 levels, so Conjurer1/Cleric2 was the idea

[eggs]

"More efficient" in that summoning one badger/spider at level 3 is usually less scary than summoning either a riding dog/medium spider or 1d3 badgers/spiders.

At every odd-numbered level until 19, it's going to really smart in terms of "having worse summons than you otherwise would"; the even-numbered levels might be a more or less fair tradeoff, but extra high-level spell slots start becoming pretty valuable after a while.

The "each CL is sacred" mentality is sometimes hammed up a bit, but it really shows with Summon Monster-users, where even the highest-leveled beatstick summons are already rather frail for their levels.

[Dragonborn]

In what way would that other variant be more efficient and when would it start to kick in? M character will start with 3 levels, so Conjurer1/Cleric2 was the idea

someone else will likely give you a more detailed answer, but losing caster levels on a full caster is usually considered inefficient do too the delay in gaining spell slots and higher level spells, plus the loss in caster level. Keep in mind Summon Monster spells have a duration of 1 round per caster level.

Edit: Looking at the suggestions, it looks like it comes online at lv.1 with spontaneous summoning, and the feats are a nice bonus but not required.

[EliteChoboHax]

I know losing a CL and being a spelllevel behind isnt efficient in the min/max kind of way, but having spontaneous heals AND summons could prove very useful in a small group. Ofcourse, summons will be a little weaker than normal, but with augment summoning it can still be useful to use them to keep baddies of our other casters (Yes, we are a non-melee based group, i'll be the most tanky of us and i figure i could use some summons to help with the tanking, be it only for a few rounds)

The PHB2 variant was also a nice idea, but then i wont be able to grab domains i like better - Like Luck and Travel

Is there any other good ways to boosts my summons, aside from Augment summoning?

[Dragonborn]

Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook) here. Malconvoker in particular gets mentioned a lot, but I haven't looked at myself yet.

Edit: Oh wow, the spontaneous summoner variant is awful ... your summoning would be 1.5 spell levels behind that way, and the dip would cost you half a spell level on everything else.

[Cor1]

If you want spontaneous summons and cure spells, have you considered exchanging your spontaneous Cure spells for spontaneous domain casting? There exists the Summoner Domain, gives +2 CL to all Conjuration [Summoning] and [Calling], Summon Monster 1,3,5,7, Lesser/Greater Planar Ally, and Gate.
This option has you choose one of your domains and you can convert spells into that domain's spells of same level or lower. But you can prepare Cure spells in your domain slots, so you're not without.

If you take your first level as Cloistered Cleric, then one level of Wizard, then the rest in Cleric, you could get Abrupt Jaunt (and never die ever) as Wizard variant, and get the Knowledge Domain for free, and more skill points. And all Knowledges as Cleric class skills too. It only costs to take the poor attack bonus progression instead of 3/4.

That way you still lose one caster access, but oh gods Abrupt Jaunt (which costs your Familiar). I recommend it more than School Mastery (Conjuration), that gives +2 Enhancement to Dex and Wis to your summons. The other options for High Conjurer are solid, Enhanced Summoning gives the Augment Summoning feat (worded so that you can DCFS it away should you ever happen to want to) in exchange for Scribe Scroll, and Spontaneous Summoning costs you one specialist slot of every spell level... Oooh iseewhatyoudidthere. You can convert your prepared Cleric spells into spontaneous summoning with a wizard ACF.

Suddenly, Spontaneous Domain Casting is not so great. Your idea was better.

Still... Abrupt Jaunt, take it.

[eggs]

A Robe of Mysterious Summons costs 10k gp and gives spontaneous Summon Monster spells. It means jumping through some hoops (it needs arcane spells, which is where shenanigans come in), but it's a better version of the UA Conjurer's ability and it can be used without losing CL (through Anyspell, Geomancer, Alternate Spell Source, faking it with UMD, whatever).

[Dragonborn]

You can convert your prepared Cleric spells into spontaneous summoning with a wizard ACF.

Suddenly, Spontaneous Domain Casting is not so great. Your idea was better.


Spontaneous Summoning from the conjurer gives a Summon Monster spell one level lower than the spell slot used, pretty weak actually. The one level dip should be judged more on the other abilities it grants imo.

@EliteChoboHax: A few questions to get a better idea what you're going for ...

Is summoning a major focus for your character, or secondary?
Will you need to spend feats for gun proficiency? How far are you planning to go with ranged combat feats?
Is there any other major focus to the character beyond those two?

[EliteChoboHax]

The summoning will just be a secondary thing, its not my main focus - Im aiming for a decent all-rounder with some summons, heals and gunfire

I will not need a feat for the gun proficiency, its assumed everyone knows how to handle a gun.

I had only considered Zen Archery to boost myself a little in combat, but will be looking for real caster feats or maybe something fun of some kind.

Im open to suggestions, but with a specialist conjurer with both Abrupt Jaunt instead of a familiar, Spontanous Summons instead of bonus wiz spells, Enhanced summoning instead of Scribe scroll paired with a cleric who has Luck and Travel as his domains, Zen Archery with 19 Wis (Getting 20 next level) he will be left off with a +5 bonus to hit and the ability to convert spells into heals as well

From where im standing, he looks pretty decent and i dont look at the absolutely best outcome at level 20, its doubtful we will get there - I just want something that can participate in many ways and have fun while doing it.

As i said, im open to any kind of suggestions as to a "better" way to pull this off, eventho i dont think there is one unless im forced to change my domains, which im in no way interested in. As for my remaining 2 feats, im still not entirely sure waht to pick - I know DMM is good, but its feat heavy to get Persistant spell, not to mention the feats needed to get more turn/rebukes, so im thinking another direction is the way to go, but which?

[Dragonborn]

The summoning will just be a secondary thing, its not my main focus - Im aiming for a decent all-rounder with some summons, heals and gunfire

I will not need a feat for the gun proficiency, its assumed everyone knows how to handle a gun.

I had only considered Zen Archery to boost myself a little in combat, but will be looking for real caster feats or maybe something fun of some kind.

Im open to suggestions, but with a specialist conjurer with both Abrupt Jaunt instead of a familiar, Spontanous Summons instead of bonus wiz spells, Enhanced summoning instead of Scribe scroll paired with a cleric who has Luck and Travel as his domains, Zen Archery with 19 Wis (Getting 20 next level) he will be left off with a +5 bonus to hit and the ability to convert spells into heals as well

If you're not feat starved the only thing worth the dip at all is abrupt jaunt imo, that spontaneous summoning is pretty weak. Abrupt Jaunt is pretty amazing though ...


From where im standing, he looks pretty decent and i dont look at the absolutely best outcome at level 20, its doubtful we will get there - I just want something that can participate in many ways and have fun while doing it.

I suspect the lost caster level will hurt less at 18+ than at earlier levels ... could be wrong though.


As i said, im open to any kind of suggestions as to a "better" way to pull this off, eventho i dont think there is one unless im forced to change my domains, which im in no way interested in. As for my remaining 2 feats, im still not entirely sure waht to pick - I know DMM is good, but its feat heavy to get Persistant spell, not to mention the feats needed to get more turn/rebukes, so im thinking another direction is the way to go, but which?

With or without the dip, the Spontaneous Summoner feat from complete divine can get you summon nature's ally spontaneously at the same spell level as the slot you give up, instead of one lower like the conjurer's. Cloistered Cleric, Education, Able Learner, or some of the Apprentice Feats could help with the Knowledge (Nature) ranks, depending on what fits best. If you go the Domain route the Contemplative and Sovereign Speaker prestige classes can both get you more domains if either fits, and the Spontaneous Healing feat let's you keep some spontaneous cure spells anyway. I suspect the prestige classes won't be very helpful here though. Not sure about the turn undead uses, but some of the Devotion feats might work.

[eggs]

It might be worth pointing out that domains are relatively cheap. You can grab some mediocre or possibly unapplicable domain like Inquisition or Oracle pretty easily, then use the Substitute Domain spell to rotate it out for something that does better apply to the character.

[Answerer]

If you're not feat starved the only thing worth the dip at all is abrupt jaunt imo, that spontaneous summoning is pretty weak. Abrupt Jaunt is pretty amazing though ...
For a summoner, Rapid Summoning is all but required.

[EliteChoboHax]

I was under the impression that only druids and rangers could get access to SNA spells? If a cleric can get access to them, without altering domains, that would be the way to ditch the 1 wiz level

SPONTANEOUS SUMMONER
[GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks, any
neutral alignment (NG, LN, N, CN, or NE), able to cast any
summon nature’s ally spell.
Benefi t: You can spontaneously cast summon nature’s ally
spells (from your class spell list) just as a druid can. You may
use this ability a total number of times per day equal to your
Wisdom modifier.

Im not entirely sure how to read this feat, maybe someone could clarify it for me?

The way i see it, Abrupt Jaunt is just a bonus, but nothing i desperately need - My GM will nail me for abusing it eventually anyway.

[Dragonborn]

For a summoner, Rapid Summoning is all but required.

You'd have to leave off abrupt jaunt though, which was listed, and you can achieve a similar effect with Rapid Spell + DMM if you have the feats. I may be a bit too paranoid about losing caster levels, but with the dip this character isn't functional as a spontaneous summoner at all until level 4.


I was under the impression that only druids and rangers could get access to SNA spells? If a cleric can get access to them, without altering domains, that would be the way to ditch the 1 wiz level

SPONTANEOUS SUMMONER
[GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks, any
neutral alignment (NG, LN, N, CN, or NE), able to cast any
summon nature’s ally spell.
Benefi t: You can spontaneously cast summon nature’s ally
spells (from your class spell list) just as a druid can. You may
use this ability a total number of times per day equal to your
Wisdom modifier.

Im not entirely sure how to read this feat, maybe someone could clarify it for me?

The way i see it, Abrupt Jaunt is just a bonus, but nothing i desperately need - My GM will nail me for abusing it eventually anyway.

Oops, was going from memory. I don't really play Cleric-type divine casters ... sorry.

[eggs]

Unless the Cleric has some means and reason to crank its Intelligence, Abrupt Jaunt is way less useful than Rapid Summoning. Add the increased Charisma demand for DMM and the extra feats spent (ie. the reason you'd want to dip Wizard in the first place), and it starts to get problematic.

There's a place for a Wizard dip in certain summoning Cleric builds, but without Rapid Summoning or Master of Shrouds? Pass.

[EliteChoboHax]

Think im gonna ask my GM to let me make a feat for Spontaneous Summon Monster and if he agrees, im going Cleric level 3 with Zen Archery, Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning

If thats a no-go, i'll grab Specialist Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt/Rapid Summoning (Still undecided on that, as my character will have 16 int, making it a little more useful and a get out of jail free card IS truely amazing to have), Enhanced Summoning and Spontaneous Summoning, then grab 2 levels of cleric with Zen Archery and 2 other Feats, most likely something that benefits spellcasting in one way or another

[gorfnab]

Conjurer Wizard (UA variants: Rapid summon, Enhanced Summon) 1/ Cleric 5/ Malconvoker 9/ Contemplative or Thaumaturgist 5. Mastering the Malconvoker Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0) has some nice summoning information in it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or, you can go do the whole Wizard/Malconvoker/UrPriest/Theurge thing for 9's on both sides of the field.

[EliteChoboHax]

Im going to try and keep it fairly simple - I might not even go for a PrC, unless i somehow during the adventures manage to qualify for the Contemplative PrC, which is pretty much up to my GM.

I might hit up the Malconvoker if i find summoning to be awesome, but i definately want Comtemplative if i get just the slightest chance at it

Im thinking Cloistered Cleric first, then Conjurer, then Cleric - I know it should have been cleric first for the 2 extra HP, but flavour-wise this seems like the right order to make a good backstory. Figured i'd grab Cloistered to get access to the Knowledge domain, as well as making all knowledge skills class skills.

I'll pretty much be a heavy armored summoner, with a big ass gun and the wisdom to hit - Not to mention the buffing and healing i'll be able to do as well

Im still stuck with Zen Archery as my only feat - Seems DMM and Persistent Spell is just going to suck up every damn Feat i have and not being useful for anything but sustaining a level 1 spell when i myself reach level 9 - I need Extend Spell, DMM, Persistent Spell and Extra Turning to have enough Turn attempts to burn.

[Answerer]

You can't be both a Cloistered and not-Cloistered Cleric. Cloistered Cleric is a variant class, which means it is effectively an entirely separate class, consisting of an entire 20 levels, but with the added caveat that once you take a level in Cloistered Cleric, you cannot take a level in Cleric, and vice versa.

Even if you could take that Cleric level, it would not stack with the Cloistered Cleric level for spellcasting or Turn Undead; you'd have the spellcasting and Turn Undead of a 1st-level Cloistered Cleric, and the spellcasting and Turn Undead of a (level-2)th-level Cleric.

[Spuddles]

In my experience, unless you're getting early access to summons, or are stacking stuff like rashemi and ashbound and augment summoning, summoning is weak, weak, weak. Especially summoned monsters as opposed to nature's allies. At higher levels, the utility SM has is nice, but if you're follish enough to both multiclass into conjurer and go into malconvoker, you're going to feel how weaksauce you and your summons are for the first 10 levels or so.

I suspect that if you were to play a game against vanilla Monster manual encounters and NPCs straight from the DMG, with CR = character level encounters, malconvoker and other summon monster builds would be alright. However, I have never played in a game that low powered, so summoned monsters are almost always trash.

Also remember- if your summoned monsters dont pose a threat, there's no reason a clever opponent won't ignore them and instead shiv the party members. The summoner's handbook will often make a big to-do about grappling summons. While some of them come with great grapple mods, the grapple almost always has to proc on a successful hit- improved grab typically. Now look at the to hit of your grapplers. Vs opponents weak vs grapple, their AC will usually be "lol no" vs summoned things. And if you have them make a grapple attempt (which just requires a touch attack), then they will get hit because they don't actually have improved grapple. Of course you can summon 1d3 of them and hope for the best, but if you're burning caster levels on conjurer and malconvoker, you aren't going to be summoning anything relevant, at least not 1d3 of them.

If you are worried about non-melee classes in melee, look at using stuff like grease, web, tasha's hideous laughter, glitterdust, or entangle. Those can be so so magical. I am fairly certain you can get most of those on domains and use spontaneous domain casting to cast them. I think cleric 3 with second level spells and good battlefield control will do more for you than a badger. You can even summon 1d3 badgers if you really think you need badgers (burrow is actually really boss- the little guys can leave tunnels).